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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    kinabalu said:

    Tommy Robinson 6/4 to be elected as an MEP? That's a 2 in 5 chance. OMG.

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??
    8% was enough for Nick Griffin, but only just.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    Labours leaflet silliness has the potential to badly affect their euro vote. I'm increasingly of the opinion both the big two will be in the teens. Brexit to win imo on ca 25%, change, ld and green to be in the 7 to 11 range

    What I can't understand is why Lord Adonis agreed to that ridiculous statement. He should have stood his ground - they knew his views when he was selected as an MEP candidate. He would have done far better to stick to his principles even if he was deselected.
    It was well-known that Adonis was an enthusiastic cheerleader for Remain when the NEC selected him, but there's a difference between that and haughtily telling all Leave voters that their votes were not wanted, Hillary Clinton-style.
    Of course. But the statement he put out was a complete contradiction of everything he had previously stood for.
    Was it a complete contradiction? He just restated the Labour conference motion, which everyone knows is waffle that can mean anything to anyone: he said he wanted a magic Brexit deal which keeps all the benefits of the EU, and that if that's not possible he wants a referendum. The only thing he left out on this occasion was that he doesn't think such a Brexit deal will ever be possible, so therefore a referendum will be the only thing left "on the table" from his POV.

    Though I agree it's strange he was so bothered about not being deselected, since he's unlikely to get elected anyway.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??

    One would hope not. But I suppose he's picked a part of the country where he at least thinks they might be.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    I think they will save that bullet for the Big One.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    Why has their polling only declined all year, even as they've gone in an ever-more Remainy direction (including sort-of supporting a referendum), then?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_P said:
    People are definitely laughing at Andrew Adonis now in fairness
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Tommy Robinson 6/4 to be elected as an MEP? That's a 2 in 5 chance. OMG.

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??
    8% was enough for Nick Griffin, but only just.
    True true but I guess you're aiming for 10% to be confident of a good chance, 8% relies on a certain spread
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    In London maybe. In the Midlands and NW, not so much.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244
    edited April 2019
    Danny565 said:

    Why has their polling only declined all year, even as they've gone in an ever-more Remainy direction (including sort-of supporting a referendum), then?

    If they share your view that a pivot to Ref2 would cost rather than gain them seats then they will never do it.

    It's all about that.

    My view is that it would produce a net gain and therefore they WILL do it - but only in the event of a general.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    I am planning to take Mike's advice and get a Xiao Mi Pocofone. Direct links to 八一大楼.

    Edit: apologies for using the Chinese language the translation is Ba Yi Da Lou.
    Assume you'll be getting the armoured version?
    LOL I will buy enough of them to be able to form a Testudo.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    On balance, it would benefit them in this election, as they would draw votes from Lib Dems, Change, and the Greens, but for the same reason, would cost the Remain side MEP;'s as the latter were pushed below the regional thresholds.

    It might also cost Labour in the local elections in Leave-voting areas.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited April 2019
    Danny565 said:

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    Why has their polling only declined all year, even as they've gone in an ever-more Remainy direction (including sort-of supporting a referendum), then?
    That's a bit of a simplistic statement. First, their polling level is a little more complex than you're suggesting and, second, tacking on the Remain issue to their share ignores lots of other factors, including but not confined to: Corbyn, anti-semitism, Salisbury, Syria and then the recent legitimisation of Corbyn by the PM. I think we should remember that Labour voters are far less inclined to alter their vote because of Brexit or the EU than the Right. Look at the last GE when it was assumed Labour would be hammered, that Labour Leavers would continue to vote against the party. They didn't at all. They returned to the fold.

    Over the last two years since the General Election there's no evidence that Labour's share has fallen and recent evidence would hint at an upturn.

    https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2

    They're polling around 2% lower than a year ago but around 5% higher than two years ago. Roughly.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    I don’t think it’ll happen.

    How will his name appear on the ballot paper?

    If it is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon then that’s going to cost him.
    On the SOPN he is listed as Tommy Robinson.

    I don't expect he'll get elected anyway though.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:
    Yes, in the North West as an Indy.
    Ah okay, that explains why he wasn’t on the UKIP list. There’s 8 seats in the NW, are more than 12.5% really going to vote for him by name, in preference to any party?

    Was rather hoping that we’d avoid his name being involved with the elections.
    As third named UKIP candidate, Steven Woolfe was returned with 9.15% of the regional vote in the NW last time out.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Trouble at t’ mill for the TIG/CUK/RA/whatever

    Founder of their activist network quits;

    https://www.twitter.com/thetimes/status/1121702969391689728

    The people prepared to quit the established parties for a new party have self-selected to be a group of people with little tolerance or patience for reality falling short of perfection.

    Some level of discord would seem to be inevitable.
    Certainly but I have had extensive dealings with the office of one of the leading TIGs and I have to say they were the most arrogant, insensitive and high-handed bunch I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Quite unable to understand that not everyone believed that the sun shone out of their boss's nether regions and impervious to any criticism or suggestion from those outside the charmed circle (most of whom had no experience of politics outside the Palace of Westminster). Those people probably wrote the paper dissing the Lib Dems, they will never be able to form a broad-based political party.
    Well it does seem like they will have to step up a notch of capability to merit a footnote in political history, but that's more for other reasons than because some individuals are upset.
  • Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2
  • I don’t think it’ll happen.

    How will his name appear on the ballot paper?

    If it is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon then that’s going to cost him.
    On the SOPN he is listed as Tommy Robinson.

    I don't expect he'll get elected anyway though.
    Thanks.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Danny565 said:

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    Why has their polling only declined all year, even as they've gone in an ever-more Remainy direction (including sort-of supporting a referendum), then?
    Practical options. When the Conservatives polled 40%, if you opposed them there was only one show in town (outside Scotland).

    When the Conservatives poll 25%, if you aren't too thrilled about Labour then you can consider other places to mark your X. This is true whether you're a Leaver who might vote Brexit or a Remainer who might vote Lib Dem or TIG - or if your reason for switching is entirely unconnected to Brexit.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    KLM via Amsterdam if at all possible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    Easyjet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited April 2019

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    iv) BA

    v) KLM

    vi) Iberia

    (Of your three, Easy).
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    Any other than Ryanair , jet2 are ok
  • Sandpit said:

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    iv) BA

    v) KLM
    Are they direct?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,715

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    edited April 2019
    (Beaten to it)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006

    I don’t think it’ll happen.

    How will his name appear on the ballot paper?

    If it is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon then that’s going to cost him.
    I'm just hoping that Shadsy is going on the tried & tested 'England fans will back the lads at any price' strategy.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kinabalu said:

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??

    One would hope not. But I suppose he's picked a part of the country where he at least thinks they might be.
    iirc BNP did well in NW in previous EU contests.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    iv) BA

    v) KLM
    Are they direct?
    BA are from LHR.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    And no change since it was last asked....

    https://twitter.com/WhatScotsThink/status/1121644779060621315
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    BA. Terminal 5 is fab and for all the criticism BA still do a good job.

    Failing that, Easyjet are okay.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Hold on, Jan rostowski evens for a seat? Second choice change UK in London, surely that's ridiculously short?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    iv) BA

    v) KLM
    Are they direct?
    BA are from LHR.
    Cheers. BA and I aren’t really friends.
  • Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    Well the Scots voted for it in 2014.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Tommy Robinson 6/4 to be elected as an MEP? That's a 2 in 5 chance. OMG.

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??
    8% was enough for Nick Griffin, but only just.
    True true but I guess you're aiming for 10% to be confident of a good chance, 8% relies on a certain spread
    The vote will surely be even more spread this time. If he can finish ahead of two or three out of Greens/Lib Dems/Change UK/UKIP then he has a good chance.

    Probably stuffs UKIP in that region.
  • Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Tommy Robinson 6/4 to be elected as an MEP? That's a 2 in 5 chance. OMG.

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??
    8% was enough for Nick Griffin, but only just.
    True true but I guess you're aiming for 10% to be confident of a good chance, 8% relies on a certain spread
    The vote will surely be even more spread this time. If he can finish ahead of two or three out of Greens/Lib Dems/Change UK/UKIP then he has a good chance.

    Probably stuffs UKIP in that region.
    Might make a difference to region winner and extra seat too, he will attract support away from Brexit and the anti establishment vote
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    If on Tuesday Labour come out decisively for a people's vote that will see them top the poll.

    Er, I think.

    I wonder if Labour can continue their Schroedingers Brexit much longer. It seems like it should matter when they finally decide, but politics is screwy at the moment and they have a strong brand and core
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    I wonder if Ladbrokes voided or paid out on the 'fastest in first practice' market. Not bothered, I didn't back anything and can see arguments either side, but just curious.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,715

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Hold on, Jan rostowski evens for a seat? Second choice change UK in London, surely that's ridiculously short?

    Shame there’s only one side of the bet being offered here.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    On topic, it will be a good test of the extent of bovine loyalty to the Conservative party. It's hard to identify a single reason to vote for the Conservatives in the EU elections no matter what your political perspective. So we shall get to see the pure and inalienable Conservative vote.

    If you are in favour of a negotiated Brexit who else would you vote for?

    Surely the Conservative vote is a proxy for support for May's Deal?
    That’s why I’m voting Tory in the Euros.
    It's not even impossible that the Conservatives will top the poll. YouGov have the gap at only 6% between first and third.

    I think I'll follow the polls closely, and vote for the party that is best placed to beat Labour.
    Conservatives are 119-1 to win the Euros on Betfair.

    I certainly wouldn't expect them to win but that does seem a very high price.

    Brexit 1.57
    Labour 2.9
    Change UK 80
    Conservative 120
  • Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
    Out of several million in issue.

    Usually in these situations it is user error.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    I wonder if Ladbrokes voided or paid out on the 'fastest in first practice' market. Not bothered, I didn't back anything and can see arguments either side, but just curious.

    They should pay this out. The session did happen and lap times were set by Leclerc and Vettel.
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.fp1-report-azerbaijan-grand-prix-2019.X8txC529lrcFPbZXI1OFX.html
  • That may be right. But Conservative voters imo will distinguish between elections that matter (like by elections and council control) versus ones where it is safe this once to cast a protest vote. That is where the erosion to the Brexit Party will happen. this may end up affecting Labour in strong Leave areas too. The Brexit Party winning on 23 May does not mean that Tories have suddenly decided they want Farage. It means in an election that does not matter for policy on tax etc., they will vote again in this referendum as they did in 2016
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
    Six failed chargers out of how many tens of millions - as opposed to Samsung’s exploding batteries and folding screens that pretty much all failed as soon as anyone outside the company got their hands on one?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422

    I've got a Samsung. Very happy with it.

    But back to the main point - is Heidi Allen a fascist in the making? - I wish to clarify that I am absolutely not saying that in a literal sense. Absurd notion. She's Heidi Allen, no more, no less.

    My point was (is) that if the people of a country attach themselves in great numbers to a charismatic individual whose pitch is that they can run things much better because they are competent and pragmatic and free of ideology and partisanship, than that can be a route to fascism in the hands of a bad apple. Which it was in that TV drama.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    edited April 2019
    I
    MikeL said:

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, it will be a good test of the extent of bovine loyalty to the Conservative party. It's hard to identify a single reason to vote for the Conservatives in the EU elections no matter what your political perspective. So we shall get to see the pure and inalienable Conservative vote.

    If you are in favour of a negotiated Brexit who else would you vote for?

    Surely the Conservative vote is a proxy for support for May's Deal?
    That’s why I’m voting Tory in the Euros.
    It's not even impossible that the Conservatives will top the poll. YouGov have the gap at only 6% between first and third.

    I think I'll follow the polls closely, and vote for the party that is best placed to beat Labour.
    Conservatives are 119-1 to win the Euros on Betfair.

    I certainly wouldn't expect them to win but that does seem a very high price.

    Brexit 1.57
    Labour 2.9
    Change UK 80
    Conservative 120
    Thanks. Those are very attractive odds. IMHO, the correct price should be about 25 - 1.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Sandpit, I'd probably agree (although my interest is purely academic). Incidentally, in case you missed it earlier my pre-qualifying ramble might be up at an odd time as I'm uncertain what's happening over the weekend, so might be today or tomorrow (before or after third practice).

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Nicholson.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    Chance to see a Messi hat-trick in the flesh not just on TV!

    Jealous is not the word.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Hold on, Jan rostowski evens for a seat? Second choice change UK in London, surely that's ridiculously short?

    London was 60% Remain, but at the moment Change UK don't seem likely to outpoll the Greens or the Lib Dems, and those three parties surely won't manage six seats between them in London.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Just laid UKIP for Euro elections at 1.58 on Betfair. There are so many parties and LAB might just back a second referendum. If the latter happens next Tuesday then the betting will change.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,715
    Sandpit said:

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
    Six failed chargers out of how many tens of millions - as opposed to Samsung’s exploding batteries and folding screens that pretty much all failed as soon as anyone outside the company got their hands on one?
    I agree that Samsung's folding screen is a hideous design (from what has been reported). I'm just pointing out that Apple isn't immune to getting things wrong either. Although Apple are usually somewhat hesitant to admit mistakes, so the plug recall's a good thing.

    And BTW, batteries shouldn't explode. And mains plugs should not fall apart. On the scale of potential impact on consumers, these are much more serious than the screen issue, which is one that imperils no-one.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,132
    FPT @Dura_Ace

    The formulation "racism = power + prejudice" has its place but it ignores the fact that a group can be globally powerless but individuals or a subgroup can be locally powerful. This can lead to the locally powerful practicing prejudice with insouciance. It may be better to just combat prejudice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    Sean_F said:

    I

    MikeL said:

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, it will be a good test of the extent of bovine loyalty to the Conservative party. It's hard to identify a single reason to vote for the Conservatives in the EU elections no matter what your political perspective. So we shall get to see the pure and inalienable Conservative vote.

    If you are in favour of a negotiated Brexit who else would you vote for?

    Surely the Conservative vote is a proxy for support for May's Deal?
    That’s why I’m voting Tory in the Euros.
    It's not even impossible that the Conservatives will top the poll. YouGov have the gap at only 6% between first and third.

    I think I'll follow the polls closely, and vote for the party that is best placed to beat Labour.
    Conservatives are 119-1 to win the Euros on Betfair.

    I certainly wouldn't expect them to win but that does seem a very high price.

    Brexit 1.57
    Labour 2.9
    Change UK 80
    Conservative 120
    Thanks. Those are very attractive odds. IMHO, the correct price should be about 25 - 1.
    At those odds, £10 on the Conservatives is a good bet.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kinabalu said:

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422

    I've got a Samsung. Very happy with it.

    But back to the main point - is Heidi Allen a fascist in the making? - I wish to clarify that I am absolutely not saying that in a literal sense. Absurd notion. She's Heidi Allen, no more, no less.

    My point was (is) that if the people of a country attach themselves in great numbers to a charismatic individual whose pitch is that they can run things much better because they are competent and pragmatic and free of ideology and partisanship, than that can be a route to fascism in the hands of a bad apple. Which it was in that TV drama.
    The beginnings of facism are always successfully convincing the majority or the dominant of a false problem to which you are the only answer. Then fake evidence of said problem and be begged to take the reins
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kjohnw said:

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    Any other than Ryanair , jet2 are ok
    Any of those are fine

    My experience of Ryanair was positive tbh.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,247
    Trump just got himself a nickname...

    https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1121366385999925249
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    ba
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,715

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
    Out of several million in issue.

    Usually in these situations it is user error.
    You sound just like the Yanks who are blaming the pilots of the 737 Max's that crashed and absolving Boeing of any blame.

    "There have been thousands of flights, and only those two crashed. It's obviously user error..."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    iv) BA

    v) KLM
    Are they direct?
    from london, BA is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    viewcode said:

    FPT @Dura_Ace

    The formulation "racism = power + prejudice" has its place but it ignores the fact that a group can be globally powerless but individuals or a subgroup can be locally powerful. This can lead to the locally powerful practicing prejudice with insouciance. It may be better to just combat prejudice.

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006

    Just laid UKIP for Euro elections at 1.58 on Betfair. There are so many parties and LAB might just back a second referendum. If the latter happens next Tuesday then the betting will change.

    Brexit Party surely?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Just laid UKIP for Euro elections at 1.58 on Betfair. There are so many parties and LAB might just back a second referendum. If the latter happens next Tuesday then the betting will change.

    You mean Brexit Party I think Mike?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    kinabalu said:

    Hes gonna need about 10% against 7 competitors........ surely the EDL types aren't a 10% presence??

    One would hope not. But I suppose he's picked a part of the country where he at least thinks they might be.
    iirc BNP did well in NW in previous EU contests.
    They have now just dropped the "N" word and now they are called BP
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244
    edited April 2019

    iirc BNP did well in NW in previous EU contests.

    Bodes well for Tommy then. Unfortunately I get the impression that his appeal is wider than that of the old BNP or National Front. The anti Islam thing has traction and it can be dressed up as not racist, merely a tough but fair roughing up of a primitive ideology that is incompatible with a modern liberal democracy. People fall for this, especially if they are suspicious of Muslims themselves and seeking some cover for their prejudice.

    BTW, the database of 3m 'never before voters' that Vote Leave exploited so effectively in the 2016 referendum, do we know who owns that now?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Hold on, Jan rostowski evens for a seat? Second choice change UK in London, surely that's ridiculously short?

    London was 60% Remain, but at the moment Change UK don't seem likely to outpoll the Greens or the Lib Dems, and those three parties surely won't manage six seats between them in London.
    I guess if change are going to surge anywhere it will be London if labour look leavish
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I

    MikeL said:

    Sean_F said:

    On topic, it will be a good test of the extent of bovine loyalty to the Conservative party. It's hard to identify a single reason to vote for the Conservatives in the EU elections no matter what your political perspective. So we shall get to see the pure and inalienable Conservative vote.

    If you are in favour of a negotiated Brexit who else would you vote for?

    Surely the Conservative vote is a proxy for support for May's Deal?
    That’s why I’m voting Tory in the Euros.
    It's not even impossible that the Conservatives will top the poll. YouGov have the gap at only 6% between first and third.

    I think I'll follow the polls closely, and vote for the party that is best placed to beat Labour.
    Conservatives are 119-1 to win the Euros on Betfair.

    I certainly wouldn't expect them to win but that does seem a very high price.

    Brexit 1.57
    Labour 2.9
    Change UK 80
    Conservative 120
    Thanks. Those are very attractive odds. IMHO, the correct price should be about 25 - 1.
    At those odds, £10 on the Conservatives is a good bet.
    Personally, I'm not tempted. As long as those odds are it's just impossible to back a party without even a PLAN on how to win. At least CHUK have one of them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @Dura_Ace

    The formulation "racism = power + prejudice" has its place but it ignores the fact that a group can be globally powerless but individuals or a subgroup can be locally powerful. This can lead to the locally powerful practicing prejudice with insouciance. It may be better to just combat prejudice.

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.
    Wasn't the whipped up perception of the Jews as a 'powerful group' the real cause of the murderousness rather than Jews actually being powerful and/or a group? They ended up being pretty fucking powerless from 1933-45.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kinabalu said:

    iirc BNP did well in NW in previous EU contests.

    Bodes well for Tommy then. Unfortunately I get the impression that his appeal is wider than that of the old BNP or National Front. The anti Islam thing has traction and it can be dressed up as not racist, merely a tough but fair roughing up of a primitive ideology that is incompatible with a modern liberal democracy. People fall for that, especially if they are suspicious of Muslims themselves and seeking some cover for their prejudice.

    BTW, that database of 3m 'never before voters' that Vote Leave exploited so effectively in the 2016 referendum, do we know who owns that now?
    I'd suggest it makes labour a very good bet to top the poll in the NW, Brexit and Tommy fish the same waters
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    edited April 2019

    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @Dura_Ace

    The formulation "racism = power + prejudice" has its place but it ignores the fact that a group can be globally powerless but individuals or a subgroup can be locally powerful. This can lead to the locally powerful practicing prejudice with insouciance. It may be better to just combat prejudice.

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.
    Wasn't the whipped up perception of the Jews as a 'powerful group' the actual cause of the murderousness rather than Jews being powerful and/or a group? They ended up being pretty fucking powerless from 1933-45.
    Anyone is powerless once you start killing them, even French or Russian aristocrats. That doesn't mean they were powerless at the beginning.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,132

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244
    Sean_F said:

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.

    I understand your point.

    However, to tag the Jews as 'a powerful group' is something that if you were in the Labour Party could bring you to the attention of Margaret Hodge, with a possible referral to Laura Murray to explain the exact context and meaning of the phrase.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,132
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @Dura_Ace

    The formulation "racism = power + prejudice" has its place but it ignores the fact that a group can be globally powerless but individuals or a subgroup can be locally powerful. This can lead to the locally powerful practicing prejudice with insouciance. It may be better to just combat prejudice.

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.
    Indeed
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. F, it's reminiscent of the bizarre language some people use about 'punching up'.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    It's a constitutional point, not a political point. The UK is only a voluntary union to the extent that the government of the day decides that it's voluntary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    edited April 2019

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    I went to Barcelona for a conference last year and EasyJet were fine. A quick connection on the underground too. With Speedy boarding you get a small bag as well as a carry on.

    If you are going for the match then probably flight times, reliability and availibility matter more than anything.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    It's a constitutional point, not a political point. The UK is only a voluntary union to the extent that the government of the day decides that it's voluntary.
    Same as the EU.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    The beginnings of facism are always successfully convincing the majority or the dominant of a false problem to which you are the only answer. Then fake evidence of said problem and be begged to take the reins

    Yes indeed.

    And I suppose to be scrupulously fair - to fascists - it helps if the false problem has a sliver of truth to it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    It's a constitutional point, not a political point. The UK is only a voluntary union to the extent that the government of the day decides that it's voluntary.
    Same as the EU.
    No, we have the unilateral right to leave the EU and could have done so already if Parliament had wanted to.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Need some travel advice.

    I have three options to get to Barcelona, which airline should I fly with?

    i) EasyJet

    ii) Ryanair

    iii) Jet2

    Easyjet over Ryanair any day of the week.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    The Act of Union would not, of course, have secured a majority had a popular referendum been held in Scotland. So "voluntary" is one of those curious definitions.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    kinabalu said:

    The beginnings of facism are always successfully convincing the majority or the dominant of a false problem to which you are the only answer. Then fake evidence of said problem and be begged to take the reins

    Yes indeed.

    And I suppose to be scrupulously fair - to fascists - it helps if the false problem has a sliver of truth to it.
    No, if the problem has a sliver of truth to it, there's always the risk someone will solve the problem. Far better for the would-be fascist if the problem is entirely fictitious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,165
    Cable's decision this morning to launch the LDs European elections campaign with a 'simple' and 'unambiguous' plan to stop Brexit is a clear attempt on his part to position the LDs as the leading anti Brexit Party and pitch for the votes of Remainers while accusing the Tories and Labour of attempting to 'stitch up' a Brexit Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48064699
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Sean_F said:

    powerful groups, such as the Jews


    ???
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    kinabalu said:

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422

    I've got a Samsung. Very happy with it.

    But back to the main point - is Heidi Allen a fascist in the making? - I wish to clarify that I am absolutely not saying that in a literal sense. Absurd notion. She's Heidi Allen, no more, no less.

    My point was (is) that if the people of a country attach themselves in great numbers to a charismatic individual whose pitch is that they can run things much better because they are competent and pragmatic and free of ideology and partisanship, than that can be a route to fascism in the hands of a bad apple. Which it was in that TV drama.
    The beginnings of facism are always successfully convincing the majority or the dominant of a false problem to which you are the only answer. Then fake evidence of said problem and be begged to take the reins
    Hmmm

    Bojo successfully convinced the majority that EU membership was a problem and Brexit was the only answer. This was largely based on fake evidence, cake and eat it, straight bananas, EU-USSR etc etc. Now it seems the Tories are begging him to take the reins.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,132

    Samsung are running scared.

    iFixit has decided to pull its revealing Samsung Galaxy Fold teardown. The decision is said to have been made after Samsung indirectly requested its removal from the website, which published the teardown on Wednesday.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/26/ifixit-pulls-galaxy-fold-teardown-samsungs-request/

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422
    Those plugs have been in circulation for a decade, it is merely a precaution.
    Hmm. "Six incidents have been reported, Apple said."

    That's six incidents where the plugs fail and users are at a risk of an electric shock. Yet you laugh at Samsung ...
    Out of several million in issue.

    Usually in these situations it is user error.
    Ok I'll bite. How do you do "user error" with plugs? Do Apple do fancy plugs that need a manual? (I'm not an Apple user so I don't know)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.

    I understand your point.

    However, to tag the Jews as 'a powerful group' is something that if you were in the Labour Party could bring you to the attention of Margaret Hodge, with a possible referral to Laura Murray to explain the exact context and meaning of the phrase.
    Yes posing Jews as a "powerful group" is anti-semitism under point 2 of the IHRA definition:

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,165

    Just laid UKIP for Euro elections at 1.58 on Betfair. There are so many parties and LAB might just back a second referendum. If the latter happens next Tuesday then the betting will change.

    With Milne controlling the show and even the likes of Stephen Kinnock opposed to a second EU referendum that is unlikely to be the official position
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    kinabalu said:

    Having read the issue, it seems an incredibly bad design choice by Samsung. But at least they're pushing the tech, unlike Apple.

    Oh, and it might not be quite the right day for an Apple fanboi to be laughing about this:

    "Apple recalls plugs in UK, Hong Kong and Singapore"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48065422

    I've got a Samsung. Very happy with it.

    But back to the main point - is Heidi Allen a fascist in the making? - I wish to clarify that I am absolutely not saying that in a literal sense. Absurd notion. She's Heidi Allen, no more, no less.

    My point was (is) that if the people of a country attach themselves in great numbers to a charismatic individual whose pitch is that they can run things much better because they are competent and pragmatic and free of ideology and partisanship, than that can be a route to fascism in the hands of a bad apple. Which it was in that TV drama.
    The beginnings of facism are always successfully convincing the majority or the dominant of a false problem to which you are the only answer. Then fake evidence of said problem and be begged to take the reins
    Hmmm

    Bojo successfully convinced the majority that EU membership was a problem and Brexit was the only answer. This was largely based on fake evidence, cake and eat it, straight bananas, EU-USSR etc etc. Now it seems the Tories are begging him to take the reins.
    Quite. Farage is trying the same trick. Fascist face off
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    It's a constitutional point, not a political point. The UK is only a voluntary union to the extent that the government of the day decides that it's voluntary.
    Same as the EU.
    Except one allows their members to democratically decide to leave it at any point (regardless of that member's absolute incompetence in carrying it out), the other doesn't.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,244

    No, if the problem has a sliver of truth to it, there's always the risk someone will solve the problem. Far better for the would-be fascist if the problem is entirely fictitious.

    Yes - I give way to a wiser man.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,132
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.

    I understand your point.

    However, to tag the Jews as 'a powerful group' is something that if you were in the Labour Party could bring you to the attention of Margaret Hodge, with a possible referral to Laura Murray to explain the exact context and meaning of the phrase.
    Yes posing Jews as a "powerful group" is anti-semitism under point 2 of the IHRA definition:

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    I did not know that, thank you. I learn something new every day. But my point remains: using the power level of a group (real or imagined) to excuse prejudicial actions against or by an individual from that group can cause problems. It is simpler to just deprecate prejudice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    edited April 2019
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Prejudice against powerful groups, such as the Jews, can be as murderous as prejudice against groups without power.

    I understand your point.

    However, to tag the Jews as 'a powerful group' is something that if you were in the Labour Party could bring you to the attention of Margaret Hodge, with a possible referral to Laura Murray to explain the exact context and meaning of the phrase.
    Yes posing Jews as a "powerful group" is anti-semitism under point 2 of the IHRA definition:

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    I'm not alleging that Jews, either now, or in the 1920's, were engaged in a conspiracy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,165

    The only reason to vote Tory since 1997 has been to try and keep Labour out. Given the total muppets in the current parliamentary party and in Gov in particular, that reason no longer seems so compelling notwithstanding the absolutely disgusting nature of Corbyn’s Labour.

    Rubbish, many voted positively for Cameron or Howard, even May last time.

    However next time there certainly will be a large part of the Tory vote to keep Corbyn out, far more than yo keep Blair or Ed Miliband out
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    kinabalu said:

    No, if the problem has a sliver of truth to it, there's always the risk someone will solve the problem. Far better for the would-be fascist if the problem is entirely fictitious.

    Yes - I give way to a wiser man.
    The best lies always have a grain of truth in them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Yeah that non standard question generally produces larger leads for Unionists.

    Still if we get Indyref2 the UK government knows that question should be on the ballot papers.
    That would be a misleading question because it wrongly implies that the UK is a voluntary union of separate states.
    I know that some Scots are convinced that the 1707 Act of Union was in some way deficient, but it does appear that Scotland and England both created Great Britain voluntarily.

    And I've seen some Irish people argue that when Ireland split in the 20's NI momentarily left the UK before (re)joining voluntarily.

    Plus given that Northern Ireland and Scotland have both voted in referendums (albeit in different decades) to remain in the UK, it would seem that is the voluntary association you disclaim.
    It's a constitutional point, not a political point. The UK is only a voluntary union to the extent that the government of the day decides that it's voluntary.
    Same as the EU.
    Except one allows their members to democratically decide to leave it at any point (regardless of that member's absolute incompetence in carrying it out), the other doesn't.
    In theory maybe, in practice not so much.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I'm not sure this is entirely fair.....but it has a ring of truth (or 'truthiness') to it:

    https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1121515208797753346
This discussion has been closed.