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  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    For those interested, the latest Spanish tracking poll data. The GE takes place on 28th April.
    https://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1117003275033825281?s=21

    Do you know how that would translate in terms of seats?

    It’s very complicated. Here’s a seat projection based on one poll that is quite similar to the tracker (though with PSOE slightly lower and PP slightly higher). 176 seats is an overall majority of one.

    https://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1116578306248175618?s=21
    Old Castile and Galicia: right-wing in 1936, right-wing now!

    Curious to see a city as large as Madrid still voting right. Looks more like the pattern in Brazil than the rest of Europe.

    That’s the province of Madrid, not the city. The city is currently run by a Podemos-led coalition. The province is very conservative and very much part of Old Castile.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Could have told him that 10 months ago. It's not been without risks, but Corbyn's strategy could well pay off handily.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    This year’s rugby world cup is going to be won by the side with the fewest homophobic players isn’t it?

    Billy Vunipola is facing potential disciplinary action from the Rugby Football Union and Saracens after supporting Israel Folau’s controversial anti-gay comments by claiming “man was made for woman”.

    The RFU will summon Vunipola to question him over a social media post made in which he defends Folau, who is facing the sack by Rugby Australia for his claims that “hell awaits” gay people. Saracens have stated they will deal with the “very serious matter” internally.

    Compounding the RFU’s headache, the No 8’s post was liked by fellow England internationals Manu Tuilagi, Nathan Hughes, Nick Isiekwe and Courtney Lawes, who replied with his own message defending Vunipola’s decision to offer his opinion. It remains to be seen whether they and other Premiership players, including his childhood friend and Wales No 8 Taulupe Faletau, who also “liked” the post, will face further action.


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/12/rfu-will-speak-to-billy-vunipola-social-media-israel-folau-england-saracens

    I am not sure I would want to get on the wrong side of the Tuilagi family....

    In addition to Manu, there is his brothers, Alesana Tuilagi, Henry Tuilagi, Freddie Tuilagi, Sanele Vavae Tuilagi.
    I wonder what are the statistical chances of at least one of them being gay?
    In my experience the biggest homophobes turn out to be gay.
    Science too:

    Put simply; it looks likely that a closeted gay man is more likely to be anti-gay. Surprising very few people.

    According to the 2012 study, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, there are higher levels of homophobia in those who have unacknowledged feelings of attraction towards the same sex.

    These levels were exacerbated when the parents of the individuals also held homophobic attitudes.


    https://www.indy100.com/article/homophobia-gay-homosexual-closet-science-self-loathing-study-data-50-years-decriminalisation-7788016
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited April 2019
    They've got a point on some of it, but they make themselves look a fool by referencing all the times she said we would leave on 29 March, since there's no question she worked damn hard to see that happen and is not a sign of any duplicity, which is the implication with the other matters.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    I believe it.

    Remain voters should have nothing to do with Labour in the European elections.
    Should not maybe, but will. Is there any reason to suppose they won't turn out for Labour now when they did in the GE?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited April 2019

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    Well it's like El Gord. Nobody could deny that El Gord wasn't hard working.

    He was up at 5am, didn't go to bed until after midnight and if he could have run every single governmental department himself he would have done.

    Being hard working and dutiful didn't mean he wasn't a complete waste of space and mad as mas as a box of frogs though... :D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    The backstop is not Northern-Ireland only, and perhaps I'm reaching here, but I'd be willing to bet that the MP in question voted to stop us leaving the EU on 29th March.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    They've got a point on some of it, but they make themselves look a fool by referending all the times she said we would leave on 29 March, since there's no question she worked damn hard to see that happen and is not a sign of any duplicity, which is the implication with the other matters.
    I tend to agree. She seems incompetent rather than conniving.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    kle4 said:

    I believe it.

    Remain voters should have nothing to do with Labour in the European elections.
    Should not maybe, but will. Is there any reason to suppose they won't turn out for Labour now when they did in the GE?
    If Yougov is to be believed, yes. 31% of Labour voters from 2017 are supporting pro-Remain parties (and even 15% are supporting pro-Brexit parties).
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sean_F said:

    For those interested, the latest Spanish tracking poll data. The GE takes place on 28th April.
    https://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1117003275033825281?s=21

    Do you know how that would translate in terms of seats?

    It’s very complicated. Here’s a seat projection based on one poll that is quite similar to the tracker (though with PSOE slightly lower and PP slightly higher). 176 seats is an overall majority of one.

    https://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1116578306248175618?s=21
    Old Castile and Galicia: right-wing in 1936, right-wing now!

    Curious to see a city as large as Madrid still voting right. Looks more like the pattern in Brazil than the rest of Europe.

    That’s the province of Madrid, not the city. The city is currently run by a Podemos-led coalition. The province is very conservative and very much part of Old Castile.

    I didn’t realise there were so many people in Chinchón :tongue:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    I believe it.

    Remain voters should have nothing to do with Labour in the European elections.
    Should not maybe, but will. Is there any reason to suppose they won't turn out for Labour now when they did in the GE?
    If Yougov is to be believed, yes. 31% of Labour voters from 2017 are supporting pro-Remain parties (and even 15% are supporting pro-Brexit parties).
    But enough to stop them coming top?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    FIgures he would like Cersei Lannister the most, a character not as smart as they think they are, and whose actions have been heavily self defeating for the things they supposedly cared about.
    His admiration for the Lannisters is in character though. The Lannisters' PR is all about settling their debts when it is pretty obvious that they are failing to do that. The gap between Osborne's PR and the reality of 2010 to 2015 was similar.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    I believe it.

    Remain voters should have nothing to do with Labour in the European elections.
    Should not maybe, but will. Is there any reason to suppose they won't turn out for Labour now when they did in the GE?
    I suspect that, back then, many people voted Corbyn/ Labour thinking (because of the polls and how the media was calling it) that it would more likely to tell the Tories that they were unhappy about being asked to vote again for party political reasons, than to show any great preference for or approval of Corbyn/ Labour. I don't think that applies now but then what does?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    I believe it.

    Remain voters should have nothing to do with Labour in the European elections.
    Should not maybe, but will. Is there any reason to suppose they won't turn out for Labour now when they did in the GE?
    If Yougov is to be believed, yes. 31% of Labour voters from 2017 are supporting pro-Remain parties (and even 15% are supporting pro-Brexit parties).
    But enough to stop them coming top?
    Quite possibly, depending on how the vote splits for the others. Labour are not popular right now.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    She is dutiful, hard working but a terrible communicator and sales person, having to negotiate publicly whilst holding a very weak hand. How the ERG thought she could deliver what she was promising without their support is very hard to understand.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    The backstop is not Northern-Ireland only, and perhaps I'm reaching here, but I'd be willing to bet that the MP in question voted to stop us leaving the EU on 29th March.
    Indeed.

    The article gives another example of the ERG's inability to think things through:

    ' Prior to the European Council summit, Brexiteers were surprisingly upbeat about the prospect of a long extension to either December, or March next year.

    A plan had been drawn up by senior Eurosceptics – with the knowledge and tacit support of cabinet ministers – to immediately declare May’s position untenable if she agreed a nine or 12-month Brexit delay.

    It would have represented the ultimate failure of her Brexit strategy, forced her resignation, brought about a Tory leadership contest and the likely election of a new Brexiteer PM, and allowed time for a general election fought on a manifesto of getting a better deal with Brussels while properly preparing for no-deal. Or so the theory went.

    The October extension put paid to that. “It is the worst of both worlds,” another Tory MP told BuzzFeed News. “Macron’s short extension would have created a cliff-edge where we could have realistically left with no deal. A long extension would have meant a change of leader and a change of strategy. Instead we are stuck in the middle with her.”
    '

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/tory-mps-are-freaking-out-in-the-tea-rooms-about-what-the
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Scott_P said:
    George Osborne IS Littlefinger.....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    JackW said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting that in America a gay man could become president whereas the Brunai Royal Family has just decreed that homosexuality should be punishable by stoning.

    Almost the entire Brunai royal family went to Millfield. One shared a room with me. Happily I can confirm absolute probity during the entirity of that year otherwise I would have no hesitation in reporting him for a retrospective stoning.

    Roger being educated at Millfield I'm somewhat surprised that he wasn't stoned at some time or other .... :sunglasses:
    Me too! Maybe that's what the Sultan had in mind but his locally educated underlings misunderstood?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851

    Sean_F said:

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    The backstop is not Northern-Ireland only, and perhaps I'm reaching here, but I'd be willing to bet that the MP in question voted to stop us leaving the EU on 29th March.
    Indeed.

    The article gives another example of the ERG's inability to think things through:

    ' Prior to the European Council summit, Brexiteers were surprisingly upbeat about the prospect of a long extension to either December, or March next year.

    A plan had been drawn up by senior Eurosceptics – with the knowledge and tacit support of cabinet ministers – to immediately declare May’s position untenable if she agreed a nine or 12-month Brexit delay.

    It would have represented the ultimate failure of her Brexit strategy, forced her resignation, brought about a Tory leadership contest and the likely election of a new Brexiteer PM, and allowed time for a general election fought on a manifesto of getting a better deal with Brussels while properly preparing for no-deal. Or so the theory went.

    The October extension put paid to that. “It is the worst of both worlds,” another Tory MP told BuzzFeed News. “Macron’s short extension would have created a cliff-edge where we could have realistically left with no deal. A long extension would have meant a change of leader and a change of strategy. Instead we are stuck in the middle with her.”
    '

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/tory-mps-are-freaking-out-in-the-tea-rooms-about-what-the
    The cynic in me thinks that October was not a compromise between Merkel and Macron, but the EU first choice, leaving the UK most likely to choose ongoing delays well into 2020 and beyond. It weakens the UK a bit economically without hitting the EU in the same way no-deal does, shows other countries how difficult leaving is, and allows Macron to play the tough guy for his domestic audience.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    If Remain can persuade the 6 million petition signers that they can serve a purpose by voting for one of the progressive parties they could do very well indeed. I shouldn't imagine more than 10 million will vote in total

    I suppose that depends a lot on how many of those 6 million are eligible to vote.
    Are you suggesting jiggery-pokery by some of the petition signers?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Sean_F said:

    It's an odd that someone can be simultaneously seen as a dutiful, hard working person doing her best (& better than all the alternatives), and also a demonstrable and repeated liar.
    The backstop is not Northern-Ireland only, and perhaps I'm reaching here, but I'd be willing to bet that the MP in question voted to stop us leaving the EU on 29th March.
    Indeed.

    The article gives another example of the ERG's inability to think things through:

    ' Prior to the European Council summit, Brexiteers were surprisingly upbeat about the prospect of a long extension to either December, or March next year.

    A plan had been drawn up by senior Eurosceptics – with the knowledge and tacit support of cabinet ministers – to immediately declare May’s position untenable if she agreed a nine or 12-month Brexit delay.

    It would have represented the ultimate failure of her Brexit strategy, forced her resignation, brought about a Tory leadership contest and the likely election of a new Brexiteer PM, and allowed time for a general election fought on a manifesto of getting a better deal with Brussels while properly preparing for no-deal. Or so the theory went.

    The October extension put paid to that. “It is the worst of both worlds,” another Tory MP told BuzzFeed News. “Macron’s short extension would have created a cliff-edge where we could have realistically left with no deal. A long extension would have meant a change of leader and a change of strategy. Instead we are stuck in the middle with her.”
    '

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/tory-mps-are-freaking-out-in-the-tea-rooms-about-what-the
    Bizarrely, I thought it through while we were all waiting for the result of the EU meeting and came to the conclusion that the optimum delay to prevent Brexit was end of September for exactly the reasons above. As nobody was talking about it I assumed it wouldn't happen.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    edited April 2019

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    FIgures he would like Cersei Lannister the most, a character not as smart as they think they are, and whose actions have been heavily self defeating for the things they supposedly cared about.
    His admiration for the Lannisters is in character though. The Lannisters' PR is all about settling their debts when it is pretty obvious that they are failing to do that. The gap between Osborne's PR and the reality of 2010 to 2015 was similar.
    Cersei in the books, is less competent (and less ruthless) than her TV counterpart. The latter takes her opponents by surprise by her willingness to go much further than they ever expected (everyone knew she was a murderer, but no one apart from Margaery thought she'd go as far as murdering thousands of innocent people in order to make a clean sweep of her enemies). She's like Stalin in that regard.

    MM is right to compare GO to Littlefinger. Intelligent, slimy, ruthless, but not quite intelligent enough.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    This year’s rugby world cup is going to be won by the side with the fewest homophobic players isn’t it?

    Billy Vunipola is facing potential disciplinary action from the Rugby Football Union and Saracens after supporting Israel Folau’s controversial anti-gay comments by claiming “man was made for woman”.

    The RFU will summon Vunipola to question him over a social media post made in which he defends Folau, who is facing the sack by Rugby Australia for his claims that “hell awaits” gay people. Saracens have stated they will deal with the “very serious matter” internally.

    Compounding the RFU’s headache, the No 8’s post was liked by fellow England internationals Manu Tuilagi, Nathan Hughes, Nick Isiekwe and Courtney Lawes, who replied with his own message defending Vunipola’s decision to offer his opinion. It remains to be seen whether they and other Premiership players, including his childhood friend and Wales No 8 Taulupe Faletau, who also “liked” the post, will face further action.


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/12/rfu-will-speak-to-billy-vunipola-social-media-israel-folau-england-saracens

    I am not sure I would want to get on the wrong side of the Tuilagi family....

    In addition to Manu, there is his brothers, Alesana Tuilagi, Henry Tuilagi, Freddie Tuilagi, Sanele Vavae Tuilagi.
    I wonder what are the statistical chances of at least one of them being gay?
    In my experience the biggest homophobes turn out to be gay.
    Science too:

    Put simply; it looks likely that a closeted gay man is more likely to be anti-gay. Surprising very few people.

    According to the 2012 study, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, there are higher levels of homophobia in those who have unacknowledged feelings of attraction towards the same sex.

    These levels were exacerbated when the parents of the individuals also held homophobic attitudes.


    https://www.indy100.com/article/homophobia-gay-homosexual-closet-science-self-loathing-study-data-50-years-decriminalisation-7788016
    "Unacknowleged same-sex attraction increasing the probability of homophobia" is not the same as saying "homophobia implies unacknowleged same-sex attraction". "

    Even if we know that A increases B, then we cannot necessarily conclude that the presence of B implies a presence of A. Other things may increase B and they may be present instead.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    viewcode said:

    This year’s rugby world cup is going to be won by the side with the fewest homophobic players isn’t it?

    Billy Vunipola is facing potential disciplinary action from the Rugby Football Union and Saracens after supporting Israel Folau’s controversial anti-gay comments by claiming “man was made for woman”.

    The RFU will summon Vunipola to question him over a social media post made in which he defends Folau, who is facing the sack by Rugby Australia for his claims that “hell awaits” gay people. Saracens have stated they will deal with the “very serious matter” internally.

    Compounding the RFU’s headache, the No 8’s post was liked by fellow England internationals Manu Tuilagi, Nathan Hughes, Nick Isiekwe and Courtney Lawes, who replied with his own message defending Vunipola’s decision to offer his opinion. It remains to be seen whether they and other Premiership players, including his childhood friend and Wales No 8 Taulupe Faletau, who also “liked” the post, will face further action.


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/12/rfu-will-speak-to-billy-vunipola-social-media-israel-folau-england-saracens

    I am not sure I would want to get on the wrong side of the Tuilagi family....

    In addition to Manu, there is his brothers, Alesana Tuilagi, Henry Tuilagi, Freddie Tuilagi, Sanele Vavae Tuilagi.
    I wonder what are the statistical chances of at least one of them being gay?
    In my experience the biggest homophobes turn out to be gay.
    Science too:

    Put simply; it looks likely that a closeted gay man is more likely to be anti-gay. Surprising very few people.

    According to the 2012 study, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, there are higher levels of homophobia in those who have unacknowledged feelings of attraction towards the same sex.

    These levels were exacerbated when the parents of the individuals also held homophobic attitudes.


    https://www.indy100.com/article/homophobia-gay-homosexual-closet-science-self-loathing-study-data-50-years-decriminalisation-7788016
    "Unacknowleged same-sex attraction increasing the probability of homophobia" is not the same as saying "homophobia implies unacknowleged same-sex attraction". "

    Even if we know that A increases B, then we cannot necessarily conclude that the presence of B implies a presence of A. Other things may increase B and they may be present instead.
    Overcompensating?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited April 2019

    Premium economy: is it worth the extra expense?

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/13/premium-economy-is-it-worth-the-extra-expense

    What is this premium economy they speak of?

    If you are booking at the last minute and there’s £50 difference between premium and normal economy, then yes. If you’re booking months ahead and there’s £500 difference, then no.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    If JC thinks hes gonna hit a 50 in the tail then call his bluff and send the old crook in as night watchman.
    Let him form an administration for 3 months whilst they elect a new leader then VONC him and come back in fresh as saviours of Brexit and the nation. Sexy. It's what farudge would do.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Scott_P said:
    George Osborne IS Littlefinger.....
    George Osborne WANTS to be Littlefinger.

    In reality he's far less able, intelligent, forward thinking and ruthless.

    In compensation he might be a nicer human being.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Sandpit said:

    Premium economy: is it worth the extra expense?

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/13/premium-economy-is-it-worth-the-extra-expense

    What is this premium economy they speak of?

    If you are booking at the last minute and there’s £50 difference between premium and normal economy, then yes. If you’re booking months ahead and there’s £500 difference, then no.
    But you still have to sit the plebs...that is unacceptable.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    The electorate dont like stitch ups generally except when its Martin bell
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    It's too late to that. If each of Greens, Lib Dem, and Change UK can take a couple of per cent off Labour however, they should all get representatives in a lot of regions.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    It's too late to that. If each of Greens, Lib Dem, and Change UK can take a couple of per cent off Labour however, they should all get representatives in a lot of regions.
    If they can get 4 or 5 seats each it would set down a marker. The likes of change and the libs need to think long term now, there is a post conlab world to grab at
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    ' A judge gave a serial drink-driver a chance to avoid jail because she is a woman.

    Victoria Parry, 30, hit three other cars after downing a bottle of wine.

    Judge Sarah Buckingham said Parry, an alcoholic who had escaped an abusive relationship, would have gone "straight down the stairs" to jail if she were a man.

    Although Parry "deserved" a prison term, the judge gave her three months to address her issues.
    '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-47914832
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    The beeb are obsessed with him. Its ratings innit, rage against the Farage ratings
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    edited April 2019
    Because Farage generates ratings, that's why.

    He's like Emmanuel Goldstein for the pro-EU left.
  • So would she prefer to see Batten all over the news for the next month instead given UKIP won the most seats last time?
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,886
    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Farage = attention-seeker!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851

    So would she prefer to see Batten all over the news for the next month instead given UKIP won the most seats last time?
    She probably would as Farage would be much more effective with the air time. I don't think ratings should be the driver for BBC but it is barmy to suggest Farage starting a brexit party polling in or around double figures is not newsworthy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    Premium economy: is it worth the extra expense?

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/13/premium-economy-is-it-worth-the-extra-expense

    What is this premium economy they speak of?

    If you are booking at the last minute and there’s £50 difference between premium and normal economy, then yes. If you’re booking months ahead and there’s £500 difference, then no.
    But you still have to sit the plebs...that is unacceptable.
    If I’m paying for it myself I’ll happily sit with the plebs on a long haul flight.

    Actually, the most annoying thing about premium economy is that its very existence makes getting a free upgrade from economy to business pretty much impossible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    ttps://twitter.com/MollyMEP/status/1116586386054717440

    Bloody good question.

    There’s an almighty row about to come between political parties, the media companies and the Electoral Commission, regarding media time over the next six weeks.

    The current system just doesn’t work when there’s multiple new parties, featuring existing politicians and polling well. Strictly speaking, under the current rules the Brexit Party and the CUKs should be almost ignored by the media, while UKIP should be getting a lot of airtime.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,886
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Premium economy: is it worth the extra expense?

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/13/premium-economy-is-it-worth-the-extra-expense

    What is this premium economy they speak of?

    If you are booking at the last minute and there’s £50 difference between premium and normal economy, then yes. If you’re booking months ahead and there’s £500 difference, then no.
    But you still have to sit the plebs...that is unacceptable.
    If I’m paying for it myself I’ll happily sit with the plebs on a long haul flight.

    Actually, the most annoying thing about premium economy is that its very existence makes getting a free upgrade from economy to business pretty much impossible.
    First Class = Snob Class
    Business = Spiv Class
    Economy = Steerage

    :)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They have been pretty disappointing so far. Surely they should have come to a temporary partnership for the European elections with at least the libdems, probably brought in the greens in too. In the indicative votes they proved themselves as stubborn as the ERG (well almost). A policy or two would be good by now as well.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,886
    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    Chemain UK?
    Remange UK?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    FIgures he would like Cersei Lannister the most, a character not as smart as they think they are, and whose actions have been heavily self defeating for the things they supposedly cared about.
    His admiration for the Lannisters is in character though. The Lannisters' PR is all about settling their debts when it is pretty obvious that they are failing to do that. The gap between Osborne's PR and the reality of 2010 to 2015 was similar.
    Osborne is a poor man's Littlefinger.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    Yet. If you're intending to be around for a few years you don't call yourself the summer of 19 party
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    And they could easily change the name in the future, whereas if they dont get traction in the next couple of months it wont matter what they are called.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    Not if we Brexit. It would then mean remain outside the EU
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    That swing to the government in Newport feels a long time ago
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    So would she prefer to see Batten all over the news for the next month instead given UKIP won the most seats last time?
    She probably would as Farage would be much more effective with the air time. I don't think ratings should be the driver for BBC but it is barmy to suggest Farage starting a brexit party polling in or around double figures is not newsworthy.
    Single handedly won the last round of these elections should count for something!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    Not if we Brexit. It would then mean remain outside the EU
    It would just need slightly different emphasis:

    Remain connected
    Remain pluralistic
    Remain relevant

    Whether those things end up being expressed by adopting a policy of rejoining the EU is a different matter.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    They want to "change" the result of every election they lose rather than accept the vote and get on with it
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
  • So would she prefer to see Batten all over the news for the next month instead given UKIP won the most seats last time?
    She probably would as Farage would be much more effective with the air time. I don't think ratings should be the driver for BBC but it is barmy to suggest Farage starting a brexit party polling in or around double figures is not newsworthy.
    Agreed but you would never get her to admit that given it would render her an enabler of islamophobia by her own reasoning.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though

    "Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,239
    viewcode said:

    "Unacknowleged same-sex attraction increasing the probability of homophobia" is not the same as saying "homophobia implies unacknowleged same-sex attraction". "

    Even if we know that A increases B, then we cannot necessarily conclude that the presence of B implies a presence of A. Other things may increase B and they may be present instead.

    I would say, based on almost no research whatsoever, that for the vast majority of homophobes suppressed gay sexuality is NOT a factor. Their homophobia is more likely to sit comfortably in a suite of reactionary social attitudes, to come as part of that package.

    However, when it comes to VIOLENT homophobes, there I am betting that most of them are indeed struggling with unwanted homosexual feelings themselves. This is borne out in TV dramas. When there is a serial killer terrorizing the gay community, as often as not the culprit turns out to be in the closet. There was one on quite recently.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
    The bubble has burst for Roothie and her ragtag bunch of absolute losers who vote against Scotland's interests at all times. She has her parachute in place making sure she is top of all the losers lists, so she keeps her own job after she gets dumped in the real votes seats.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though

    "Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
    He said it with his fingers crossed, behind his back.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
    The bubble has burst for Roothie and her ragtag bunch of absolute losers who vote against Scotland's interests at all times. She has her parachute in place making sure she is top of all the losers lists, so she keeps her own job after she gets dumped in the real votes seats.
    I doubt if Leith is the Conservatives' best area in Scotland/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 2019

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.

    Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”.

    "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave,” he said.

    “Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.”"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    That swing to the government in Newport feels a long time ago

    Hardly a swing to the government. Swing away from the big 2 more like.
    Swings as a concept only works in a 2 party context.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.
    Lies, damned lies. Excluding MPs being kicked out of their party (and let back in), two of the last three defections before the Tiggers called by-elections.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited April 2019

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.

    Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”.

    "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave,” he said.

    “Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.”"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
    Article dated Dec 2016. I think he has revised his opinion in the last 2 and a half years, as indeed have I!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
    The bubble has burst for Roothie and her ragtag bunch of absolute losers who vote against Scotland's interests at all times. She has her parachute in place making sure she is top of all the losers lists, so she keeps her own job after she gets dumped in the real votes seats.
    I doubt if Leith is the Conservatives' best area in Scotland/
    They pulled in the 20s in leith under Thatcher, in the teens under the post Blair leaders but jumped to 27 in 2017. Slipping back a bit based on the by election but they haven't held the seat since the war anyway
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    dixiedean said:

    That swing to the government in Newport feels a long time ago

    Hardly a swing to the government. Swing away from the big 2 more like.
    Swings as a concept only works in a 2 party context.
    Its relevant as long as LabCon are the only two serious contenders in most seats. A Newport result nationwide equals Tory majority (just) if the libs don't break through their low base.
    That now seems preposterous.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
    I’m sure they will be devastated not to have the support of diehard Leave acolytes.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.

    Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”.

    "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave,” he said.

    “Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.”"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
    Article dated Dec 2016. I think he has revised his opinion in the last 2 and a half years, as indeed have I!
    Well I didn't think it was from today did I!?!!

    But he was right about what people would think of those who call for a second referendum

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    Tried to overturn Corbyn's win
    Trying to overturn Brexit
    Refuse to stand in by Elections
    Preferring representative democracy to direct democracy is by no means anti democratic, indeed it is the form of democracy the UK had been using for a very long time.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.

    Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”.

    "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave,” he said.

    “Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.”"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
    Well I think he is clearly metropolitan, and probably does think he knows best, not sure about elite though. When I grew up elite used to mean things like sons or daughters of Earls and Barons, going to Eton, Oxbridge, perhaps the children of the editor of the Times, or people who place £1000 bets in Mayfair. Now it seems to mean anyone who lives in London with a degree.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    edited April 2019

    dixiedean said:

    That swing to the government in Newport feels a long time ago

    Hardly a swing to the government. Swing away from the big 2 more like.
    Swings as a concept only works in a 2 party context.
    Its relevant as long as LabCon are the only two serious contenders in most seats. A Newport result nationwide equals Tory majority (just) if the libs don't break through their low base.
    That now seems preposterous.
    Fair enough.
    Tory majority seems a distance away just now. Only slightly further than a Labour one though.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    That swing to the government in Newport feels a long time ago

    Hardly a swing to the government. Swing away from the big 2 more like.
    Swings as a concept only works in a 2 party context.
    Its relevant as long as LabCon are the only two serious contenders in most seats. A Newport result nationwide equals Tory majority (just) if the libs don't break through their low base.
    That now seems preposterous.
    Fair enough.
    Tory majority seems a distance away just now. Only slightly further than a Labour one though.
    Can't see a majority happening for some time either way tbh, not whilst the SNP are riding high.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    'Remain' has more logical long-term political meaning than 'Brexit'.
    The Anti Democratic League suits them best

    s
    e.
    Stand in by elections then

    Umunna said he would respect the result of the referendum and not campaign for a second one though
    I dont remember the exact numbers but it is something like only 4 of the last 60 MPs to change parties have called a by-election. So the tradition in our system is they don't need to.

    Personally I prefer electing a person with individual thoughts than someone who can only follow party orders. I think parliament would work far better if we let individual MPs have a bit more freedom to express themselves, without accusing them of being liars, traitors, not pure enough, disloyal etc.

    Chuka Umunna today urged Remain campaigners to abandon calls for a second referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite “who think they know best”.

    "I really have no time for calls for a second referendum because I think it comes across as disrespectful to those who voted to leave,” he said.

    “Those calls reinforce what I feel is a false stereotype — of a bunch of people in London who think they know best.”"

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-drop-calls-for-new-brexit-vote-a3410601.html
    Well I think he is clearly metropolitan, and probably does think he knows best, not sure about elite though. When I grew up elite used to mean things like sons or daughters of Earls and Barons, going to Eton, Oxbridge, perhaps the children of the editor of the Times, or people who place £1000 bets in Mayfair. Now it seems to mean anyone who lives in London with a degree.
    Would calling Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo "elite footballers" make you argue that Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage were the real elite?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
    The bubble has burst for Roothie and her ragtag bunch of absolute losers who vote against Scotland's interests at all times. She has her parachute in place making sure she is top of all the losers lists, so she keeps her own job after she gets dumped in the real votes seats.
    I doubt if Leith is the Conservatives' best area in Scotland/
    Given she is Edinburgh Central it would not involve Leith , but you are correct it is not a Tory hotbed ( it was their little Better Together helpers Labour territory ) but then again neither is the whole of Scotland.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Perhaps we are not yet into the official campaign period when those rules kick in.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
    I’m sure they will be devastated not to have the support of diehard Leave acolytes.
    I see you can't actually point out where my statement is wrong.

    And as for support they don't seem to be getting much of it from anywhere.

    It seems a long time since PB was breathlessly speculating on how many more defections there would be to the splitters.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,851
    "Would calling Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo "elite footballers" make you argue that Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage were the real elite?"

    No it wouldn't. I do think it is worth calling out the hypocrisy of the likes of Rees-Mogg and Farage calling for people to rise up against the "metropolitan elite" as it is deliberately divisive and so far fetched from the reality that they are the elite themselves.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
    I’m sure they will be devastated not to have the support of diehard Leave acolytes.
    I see you can't actually point out where my statement is wrong.

    And as for support they don't seem to be getting much of it from anywhere.

    It seems a long time since PB was breathlessly speculating on how many more defections there would be to the splitters.
    I think that some Labour MP's were on the point of jumping ship, before Corbyn moved further towards backing a second referendum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    justin124 said:

    Perhaps we are not yet into the official campaign period when those rules kick in.
    Seems reasonable, and it was a big story to cover. I find the hyperventilating about the Brexit Party launch to be a bit petty and I've yet to see a compelling justification for the outrage other than not wanting to see Farage. Which is a noble goal, but that seems to be what it is about more than anything else, which is just sad.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
    I’m sure they will be devastated not to have the support of diehard Leave acolytes.
    They'll never get anywhere if they don't reach out to those on the other side!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,383
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    Perhaps we are not yet into the official campaign period when those rules kick in.
    Seems reasonable, and it was a big story to cover. I find the hyperventilating about the Brexit Party launch to be a bit petty and I've yet to see a compelling justification for the outrage other than not wanting to see Farage. Which is a noble goal, but that seems to be what it is about more than anything else, which is just sad.
    News organisations know they'll get a response from Disgusted of Brighton Pavilion when they put Farage on the screen, so what do you do if you're your running a news organisation?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    edited April 2019
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quite possible we will see Tories polling higher in Scotland than the UK as a whole in polls over the summer

    UK must be going to be very low then going by recent Scottish polls/results. 10.7% is rather low https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17569879.snp-win-by-election-as-remain-parties-advance/?ref=mr&lp=2
    Lol I meant national opinion polls.
    The bubble has burst for Roothie and her ragtag bunch of absolute losers who vote against Scotland's interests at all times. She has her parachute in place making sure she is top of all the losers lists, so she keeps her own job after she gets dumped in the real votes seats.
    I doubt if Leith is the Conservatives' best area in Scotland/
    I think the council ward is partially in Edinburgh Central.
    Didn't someone on here suggest the SCons would come second in the council by election?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,870
    Today's AQ audience very keen to remain.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Perhaps because a track record as a party is irrelevant when they have a decent chance of securing the most seats in the Euro elections, as evidenced by their 11/10 odds with Ladbrokes, way ahead of the 9/1 odds of the Conservatives. And Farage does have a track record of winning Euro elections with a party that came from nowhere.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Artist said:

    15% is impressive for the Brexit Party before they have even properly launched. They could well come top if they can get enough attention.

    Perhaps Change UK should just have called themselves the Remain party. Then the comparison would be more meaningful.
    That would have been a good idea, as it's their major selling point.
    They are looking long term. Remain will be a completely irrelevant name by the end of the year one way or another
    Yes, but they don't stand for anything else.
    I saw a tweet of theirs asking for MEP candidates that share their values, and I can’t be the only one wondering what they are?
    A vanity project in search of a purpose.
    I’m sure they will be devastated not to have the support of diehard Leave acolytes.
    I see you can't actually point out where my statement is wrong.

    And as for support they don't seem to be getting much of it from anywhere.

    It seems a long time since PB was breathlessly speculating on how many more defections there would be to the splitters.
    I think that some Labour MP's were on the point of jumping ship, before Corbyn moved further towards backing a second referendum.
    That's possible.

    But Corbyn appears more secure now than he did a few months ago and meanwhile the splitters have failed to explain what they are for, let alone how they could bring it about.

    Ultimately they are fishing for votes in the same pond as Labour, LibDems and Greens and that's not easy in FPTP.
This discussion has been closed.