I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
Didn't we... don't we still for the moment anyway.... have a seat on all the governing bodies?
We do. But in the majority of cases we do not have a veto. That means laws can be made against our wishes. It is a fundamental point.
Yet the constant complaint about the EU is that it is "undemocratic". In democracies 27 Yeses and 1 No means Yes, not No.
As I just replied to William, the lack of a European demos means that the EU making laws that cannot be vetoed by the member states is undemocratic.
Speak for yourself. Donald Tusk represents my views and interests far better than ether of our two largest domestic parties.
But you are an extremist example and certainly not representative of the majority of the population if the polls are to be believed.
The polls aren't to be believed. There clearly is a European demos. When was the last time you spoke to an American in the flesh while going about your daily business in the UK? You interact with continental Europeans all the time.
I don't think many people in this country identify with the pan-EU political groupings that are set up in the European Parliament.
I don't think many people could name them.
I certainly can't. I know there is a centre left one, a hard-left/green one, the EPP something with the Tories left, the ECR which they founded, ALDE (is it?) with the Lib Dems, and I think a new far right one?
Even worse, they confuse them. There are pan-European political parties, and there are the political groups in the European Parliament. They are similar but not identical. As some bookies are offering odds on one or t'other winning, this confusion can be critical.
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
Didn't we... don't we still for the moment anyway.... have a seat on all the governing bodies?
We do. But in the majority of cases we do not have a veto. That means laws can be made against our wishes. It is a fundamental point.
Yet the constant complaint about the EU is that it is "undemocratic". In democracies 27 Yeses and 1 No means Yes, not No.
As I just replied to William, the lack of a European demos means that the EU making laws that cannot be vetoed by the member states is undemocratic.
Speak for yourself. Donald Tusk represents my views and interests far better than ether of our two largest domestic parties.
But you are an extremist example and certainly not representative of the majority of the population if the polls are to be believed.
The polls aren't to be believed. There clearly is a European demos. When was the last time you spoke to an American in the flesh while going about your daily business in the UK? You interact with continental Europeans all the time.
I don't think many people in this country identify with the pan-EU political groupings that are set up in the European Parliament.
I don't think many people could name them.
I certainly can't. I know there is a centre left one, a hard-left/green one, the EPP something with the Tories left, the ECR which they founded, ALDE (is it?) with the Lib Dems, and I think a new far right one?
Even worse, they confuse them. There are pan-European political parties, and there are the political groups in the European Parliament. They are similar but not identical. As some bookies are offering odds on one or t'other winning, this confusion can be critical.
We could in theory end up with a party winning a majority on 32 percent of the vote at the next election under first the post. How ‘Democratic’ is that when 32% dictate to 68%.
The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community.
All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership.
France believes it is 'premature' to assume they will grant Britain another extension to the Brexit negotiation period, a source close to the President has said.
The French diplomatic source slammed as 'clumsy plans of a 'flexible extension' for Britain to leave the EU in the next year.
'It is premature to talk of an extension despite the fact the 27 had set a clear pre-condition: the need for a credible alternative plan justifying this request. We're not there today,' the source said.
Macron said that last time. His red lines are about as firm as May’s.
The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community.
All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership.
The Newport West result mirroring the national polling with substantial falls in vote share for both Conservative and Labour parties dished out across a range of options from LDs to various flavours of Brexit to Greens and Nationalists.
The 63% Con/Lab share compares with the 84% at the 2017 GE while in Newport West the share went from 91% to 70%.
Putting these shares into Baxter is entirely meaningless but the fragmentation of the Con/Lab share helps the two old parties keep their share of seats much better than if it were going to a single "third" party. We would need to see if the fall in the Con/Lab share is reflected in Scotland for example where the SNP could win back 13-15 seats lost last time.
My first thought, as I said yesterday, is that I'd love to be standing as an Independent in the coming local elections. Some of the Independent Groups such as in Guildford are surprisingly well organised and adept in campaigning. That's where I would be looking for upsets in early May.
France believes it is 'premature' to assume they will grant Britain another extension to the Brexit negotiation period, a source close to the President has said.
The French diplomatic source slammed as 'clumsy plans of a 'flexible extension' for Britain to leave the EU in the next year.
'It is premature to talk of an extension despite the fact the 27 had set a clear pre-condition: the need for a credible alternative plan justifying this request. We're not there today,' the source said.
Macron said that last time. His red lines are about as firm as May’s.
I tend to agree.. but I don't think it would be wise for May to go to the summit on the 10th with a plan which basically reads "soz.. still working on it". And even if they do go for that, what's the betting we end up in the same place on Jun 28th?
Morning all. As others have said, not much to see in the Newport result, but there is perhaps one little thing: UKIP did relatively well, implying perhaps that the meltdown we've seen at the national level won't necessarily stop people voting UKIP. That matters in the sense that the hardline Brexit vote won't automatically transfer to Nigel Farage's new gang but may be split, which could limit the future electoral impact of hardline Brexit disgruntlement.
Gotta say I think once Farages party is out in the open, Kipper support will melt away like snow off the dyke. They will have the hardcore Yaxley BNP nutters but struggle to save any deposits, they will probably only stand 50 or so candidates, there's no money in them anymore. 8% given the 'outrage' of the no deal plurality is not great in a leave seat with a recognized figure standing and both main parties struggling with Brexit
I dont think so. UKIP have the branding, and are not too bothered by being called Islamophobic. Indeed Islamophobia is quite a vote winner for them. The BNP used to get 10% or so in a number of elections, so there is always a place for an avowed racist party.
Can they afford to stand and campaign nationally in euros and a GE? Have they any serious backers? Helmer quit Tuesday, they are out of recognisible figures apart from Yaxley, and he will drop them when he finds something else to piss about with
Surely their focus will be the European elections and winning MEPs - which we assume will happen now. Although if the Brexit party also stands voters may desert them once they realise it’s not Farage’s party.
Of course the problem is those regions where they are likely to win most votes have fewer MEPs so it’s harder to win seats.
And if they split the vote with Farage we may find the only MEP elected across both parties is Farage himself in the large south east region.
And Farage is highly unlikely to be a party group leader in the next parliament as his EFDD group will probably disappear so won’t have the same opportunity to make his big speeches in front of the big players. So he is likely to cut a less influential figure in Brussels.
I certainly can't. I know there is a centre left one, a hard-left/green one, the EPP something with the Tories left, the ECR which they founded, ALDE (is it?) with the Lib Dems, and I think a new far right one?
Pretty good! The centre-left is S&D, and there's a non-hard left Green one. The far right one is EFDD. When Britain pulls out, the rump ECR might merge with someone, I guess.
The main division is between the establishment pro-EU conservative EPP, the establishment centre-left S&D and ALDE, and the Eurosceptics across most of the others.
The EU shouldn’t worry about a large return of the hate mob .
UKIP and the Brexit Party will likely split the vote . This bizarely could help Tories and Labour. Pro EU second vote parties should join together under one banner .
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
Didn't we... don't we still for the moment anyway.... have a seat on all the governing bodies?
We do. But in the majority of cases we do not have a veto. That means laws can be made against our wishes. It is a fundamental point.
Yet the constant complaint about the EU is that it is "undemocratic". In democracies 27 Yeses and 1 No means Yes, not No.
As I just replied to William, the lack of a European demos means that the EU making laws that cannot be vetoed by the member states is undemocratic.
Speak for yourself. Donald Tusk represents my views and interests far better than ether of our two largest domestic parties.
But you are an extremist example and certainly not representative of the majority of the population if the polls are to be believed.
T.
I don't think many people in this country identify with the pan-EU political groupings that are set up in the European Parliament.
I don't think many people could name them.
I certainly can't. I know there is a centre left one, a hard-left/green one, the EPP something with the Tories left, the ECR which they founded, ALDE (is it?) with the Lib Dems, and I think a new far right one?
Even worse, they confuse them. There are pan-European political parties, and there are the political groups in the European Parliament. They are similar but not identical. As some bookies are offering odds on one or t'other winning, this confusion can be critical.
Pretty good! The centre-left is S&D, and there's a non-hard left Green one. The far right one is EFDD. When Britain pulls out, the rump ECR might merge with someone, I guess.
The main division is between the establishment pro-EU conservative EPP, the establishment centre-left S&D and ALDE, and the Eurosceptics across most of the others.
I really ought to know this, but to what extent do the various groupings act as disciplined blocks voting together on an agreed set of policies, as parties usually* do in the Westminster parliament?
The EU shouldn’t worry about a large return of the hate mob .
UKIP and the Brexit Party will likely split the vote . This bizarely could help Tories and Labour. Pro EU second vote parties should join together under one banner .
It would be very cool indeed if we could go ahead with the Euros and have just 2 parties taking part, REMAIN and LEAVE.
Ref2 in all but name, and much cheaper and quicker.
Lisa Nandy is all over the place on Brexit, one day putting her name down on a letter saying no to another referendum, the next saying she'll revoke Art 50.
On Brexit matters, I'm completely puzzled by this notion of n extension to June 30th. If May meant June 30th 2020 I could understand that but as I understand the legalities we'd have to fight the EU elections to choose MPs who would be sacked a month later.
It's all looking desperate as she tries to hold the country and the Conservative party together. I'm not a Conservative so I don't really care but I'm well aware she does. The polling has suggested growing support for No Deal simply as a way of "getting it over with" and I'm reminded by Robin Wiggs' excellent contribution yesterday that many industries and sectors are ready for No Deal.
It may yet be that she and Corbyn can fashion a compromise and both can see their parties haemorrhaging support while this imbroglio continues. The vitriol from those convinced we aren't leaving at all is growing in intensity and may yet be seen on 2/5 as an abstention factor hurting some Conservatives though again messages, with canvassing, are always mixed and anecdotal.
I don't think many people in this country identify with the pan-EU political groupings that are set up in the European Parliament.
I'm sure you're right, but FWIW I know lots of people who routinely say things like "Is that a GUE proposal?" or "What is the EPP position on that, they won't get it through without them?" But my social circle is full of people who are keen pro-Europeans and follow what happens in the European Parliament with interest (for a contrary view, put this to DavidL, standing well back to avoid the explosion).
I know plenty of pro-Europeans, but I think I know one only that knows the constitution of the European parliament even as well as the typical Briton knows Westminster.
Most Britons haven't got the first clue about how our so-called democracy works. They are kept in their ignorance by a second rate education system that doesn't think people need to be educated on the system that governs them
The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community.
All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership.
Lisa Nandy is all over the place on Brexit, one day putting her name down on a letter saying no to another referendum, the next saying she'll revoke Art 50.
It's worth reading the full interview. I must say she comes over very well:
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
Didn't we... don't we still for the moment anyway.... have a seat on all the governing bodies?
We do. But in the majority of cases we do not have a veto. That means laws can be made against our wishes. It is a fundamental point.
Yet the constant complaint about the EU is that it is "undemocratic". In democracies 27 Yeses and 1 No means Yes, not No.
As I just replied to William, the lack of a European demos means that the EU making laws that cannot be vetoed by the member states is undemocratic.
Speak for yourself. Donald Tusk represents my views and interests far better than ether of our two largest domestic parties.
But you are an extremist example and certainly not representative of the majority of the population if the polls are to be believed.
The polls aren't to be believed. There clearly is a European demos. When was the last time you spoke to an American in the flesh while going about your daily business in the UK? You interact with continental Europeans all the time.
Lisa Nandy is all over the place on Brexit, one day putting her name down on a letter saying no to another referendum, the next saying she'll revoke Art 50.
It's worth reading the full interview. I must say she comes over very well:
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
We participate in all EU law, directly or indirectly, via the Council of Ministers who the Commission reports to, so no, we are not governed by the EU. I doubt that any reputable lawyer or constitutional expert would agree with your contention.
That's why I also say 'govern'. I don't want any part in governing Europe, none of our business as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
Didn't we... don't we still for the moment anyway.... have a seat on all the governing bodies?
We do. But in the majority of cases we do not have a veto. That means laws can be made against our wishes. It is a fundamental point.
Yet the constant complaint about the EU is that it is "undemocratic". In democracies 27 Yeses and 1 No means Yes, not No.
As I just replied to William, the lack of a European demos means that the EU making laws that cannot be vetoed by the member states is undemocratic.
Speak for yourself. Donald Tusk represents my views and interests far better than ether of our two largest domestic parties.
No, he doesn't. Not because you don't share sensibilities etc., but because of his remit. By definition, he would take action that was against your interests if he felt it was necessary for the cohesion of his project.
I don't think it matters whether we have more in common with the Europeans or the Anglosphere. I don't want to govern, or be governed, by either. I want to be friends with them all, and that's it.
We are not "governed" by the EU .
I would define governed, at least in part, as having laws made for us, with or without our agreement, over which we have no veto. That is certainly the case with the EU.
We participate in all EU law, directly or indirectly, via the Council of Ministers who the Commission reports to, so no, we are not governed by the EU. I doubt that any reputable lawyer or constitutional expert would agree with your contention.
That's why I also say 'govern'. I don't want any part in governing Europe, none of our business as far as I'm concerned.
A horribly parochial attitude and one that's got us into this mess in the first place. What about roads that lead out of your village or hospitals that spread into the next parish or even laws that stretch over borders to Scotland or Ireland for example? We interconnect and some of us live in more than one country. Let your hair down drop the drawbridge and look what's out there.
Comments
Also see my post at 2:07.
RE: The GOLD BIKINI - red rag, meet bull.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1114131479452422146?s=19
The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market.
He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community.
All five - Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Italy and Germany - have said they would support negotiations towards British membership.
Only France remains opposed.
The Newport West result mirroring the national polling with substantial falls in vote share for both Conservative and Labour parties dished out across a range of options from LDs to various flavours of Brexit to Greens and Nationalists.
The 63% Con/Lab share compares with the 84% at the 2017 GE while in Newport West the share went from 91% to 70%.
Putting these shares into Baxter is entirely meaningless but the fragmentation of the Con/Lab share helps the two old parties keep their share of seats much better than if it were going to a single "third" party. We would need to see if the fall in the Con/Lab share is reflected in Scotland for example where the SNP could win back 13-15 seats lost last time.
My first thought, as I said yesterday, is that I'd love to be standing as an Independent in the coming local elections. Some of the Independent Groups such as in Guildford are surprisingly well organised and adept in campaigning. That's where I would be looking for upsets in early May.
The main division is between the establishment pro-EU conservative EPP, the establishment centre-left S&D and ALDE, and the Eurosceptics across most of the others.
(I know 'cos they told me at the Dog and Duck.)
UKIP and the Brexit Party will likely split the vote . This bizarely could help Tories and Labour. Pro EU second vote parties should join together under one banner .
* Or at least used to!
Ref2 in all but name, and much cheaper and quicker.
It's all looking desperate as she tries to hold the country and the Conservative party together. I'm not a Conservative so I don't really care but I'm well aware she does. The polling has suggested growing support for No Deal simply as a way of "getting it over with" and I'm reminded by Robin Wiggs' excellent contribution yesterday that many industries and sectors are ready for No Deal.
It may yet be that she and Corbyn can fashion a compromise and both can see their parties haemorrhaging support while this imbroglio continues. The vitriol from those convinced we aren't leaving at all is growing in intensity and may yet be seen on 2/5 as an abstention factor hurting some Conservatives though again messages, with canvassing, are always mixed and anecdotal.
Extension
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lisa-nandy-female-mps-have-become-targets-a4110351.html
She also covers the appalling abuse and threats which MPs of all parties, especially women MPs, are getting.
NEW THREAD