If ever there was a moment when leavers had the chance of a free hit in a by-election when Brexit is supposedly being "betrayed" I would have thought this would have been it.
They got 8.6% so I think it is fair to say that the population is nowhere near as enraged about Brexit as the Mail, Telegraph and a few PB posters keep telling us they are. Very timely by-election
The choice was between a People's Vote backing Labour candidate and a Tory candidate who voted to Leave, in a remarkably safe Labour seat, 9 years into Tory governance and there was a swing from the the Labour to the Tories.
Not quite my point. To listen to some in the press on PB you would be forgiven for believing that leavers were so incensed at what is going on that they are on the brink of civil unrest. UKIP then poll 8.6% in a by-election.
It's not happening. The ultras in their comfortable newspaper offices are desperately trying to whip up the troops into a frenzy but most of the troops (Yaxley-Lennon apart) are remaining steadfastly unwipped. Farage's pitiful march was another indication.
It wasn’t people who wanted to respect the referendum result that were inferring the smaller parties finishing position in the Newport by election would infer anything re the nationwide mood.
UKIP saving a deposit with its current set up is surprising though.
I see, wrong sort of UKIP!
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are. Perhaps he knows that they aren't, his "march" should have given him a clue!
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
Once the extension is in place it isn't obvious why those MPs happy with a delay would vote to resolve the deal impasse in the options exercise on Monday.
Edit/ This surely makes a PV more likely, as a way to cement the extension?
The extension will not be in place before the Council meeting on the 10th April but it does look very likely a referendum may well happen as it creates the space for it. Of course the limited thinking of ERG is they have longer to plan a no deal, completely unware that public demand for a referendum is likely to overwhelm them. And I do not support a referendum
Some unreconciled remainers demand a referendum, not the public. The fact that you as a remainer do not support it demonstrates that. If we extend we can fix May's mistakes [and Fox's] and leave properly.
You seem to have overlooked that under the flextension there isn't an easy route to no deal.
The extension lasts for a year, at least (and could theoretically be extended again). If there's a referendum the outcomes are a soft Brexit or no Brexit. If there isn't a referendum the extension only ends if we get a deal, which will be a soft Brexit. soft Brexit or no Brexit. Otherwise the EU just postpones. Whatever you think of the EU, they are giving us a political masterclass.
If there isn't a referendum the extension ends on 12 April 2020.
I suggested we break the impasse by replacing May [and Fox] and fixing May's mistakes and prep properly for No Deal. Build border posts on the Irish border if we have to, while holding out an olive branch that we will ratify the deal if they drop the backstop.
If they drop the backstop we get a good deal and exit. If they don't we make sure we're prepared to exit on 12 April 2020. Public attitude to No Deal is higher than for revocation or extension and momentum is increasing support for No Deal as it happens. If we've prepared properly for it there's no reason we can't do it if need be - but if we prepare properly for it, there's every chance the EU will blink and give us a good deal. Win/win either way.
Not sure there is support for No Deal if you actually look at the data,
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
It seems more voters like May's attempts to produce a compromise Brexit Deal than hard Brexiteers first thought
Would it be heresy to suggest that Brexit made bugger all difference in Newport? And that issues like Labour in Wales being crap on the NHS and the problems of traffic on the M4 were just as important?
Perhaps but the Tory vote held up despite the Brexit issues
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
Ironic that the Governmenr is now rushing to get its extension agreed before the MPs can ask for their own. Especially as the reply from the EU is likely to be the same either way.
Two groups both afraid of no deal rushing each other to the finish.
It does however explain why the Tory Lords were willing to abandon their games yesterday afternoon in return for the debate spilling over to Monday.
Who the hell are the 7,000+ people who voted Conservative in Newport West?
Seriously you've got to be out of your mind to vote Tory at this point?
The result certainly suggests it's not as toxic as the press and commentariat would have it. The council by election in Norfolk also had them holding up over 50%, ok only a local but there is no evidence yet of a vote collapse. Certainly it's not like 92 to 97 when they were smashed in every by election. Its activists not voters that are deserting imo but that will weigh in a general
Mr. 64, it's an interesting possibility. And welcome to PB.
In unrelated news, it's reported Prince Harry thinks Fortnite should be banned.
It looks like a pretty pointless game to me, but banning stuff is an unwelcome new fashion and not something royalty should be promoting.
Proving his right on connections ...
What an arse
Speaking of potential bans, here's an example of the EU Parliament looking very stupid (and I post this with no pleasure, as an ardent Remainer). Hopefully, sense will prevail.
First they came for the bendy bananas, and I did not speak out, Because I like straight bananas. Then they came for the inefficient vacuum cleaners, and I did not speak out Because I had a Henry Hoover Then they came for the curved cucumbers, and I did not speak out Because I don’t like cucumbers Then they came for the vegan sausages. Now it’s fu*king war!
If ever there was a moment when leavers had the chance of a free hit in a by-election when Brexit is supposedly being "betrayed" I would have thought this would have been it.
They got 8.6% so I think it is fair to say that the population is nowhere near as enraged about Brexit as the Mail, Telegraph and a few PB posters keep telling us they are. Very timely by-election
The choice was between a People's Vote backing Labour candidate and a Tory candidate who voted to Leave, in a remarkably safe Labour seat, 9 years into Tory governance and there was a swing from the the Labour to the Tories.
Not quite my point. To listen to some in the press on PB you would be forgiven for believing that leavers were so incensed at what is going on that they are on the brink of civil unrest. UKIP then poll 8.6% in a by-election.
It's not happening. The ultras in their comfortable newspaper offices are desperately trying to whip up the troops into a frenzy but most of the troops (Yaxley-Lennon apart) are remaining steadfastly unwipped. Farage's pitiful march was another indication.
It wasn’t people who wanted to respect the referendum result that were inferring the smaller parties finishing position in the Newport by election would infer anything re the nationwide mood.
UKIP saving a deposit with its current set up is surprising though.
I see, wrong sort of UKIP!
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are.
You'd have to ask him, but I would disagree that Newport West was "the ideal opportunity"
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
I think we have more in common with New Zealand than Scottish nationalists but we should maintain the Union and our shared monarchy for Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK
If ever there was a moment when leavers had the chance of a free hit in a by-election when Brexit is supposedly being "betrayed" I would have thought this would have been it.
They got 8.6% so I think it is fair to say that the population is nowhere near as enraged about Brexit as the Mail, Telegraph and a few PB posters keep telling us they are. Very timely by-election
The choice was between a People's Vote backing Labour candidate and a Tory candidate who voted to Leave, in a remarkably safe Labour seat, 9 years into Tory governance and there was a swing from the the Labour to the Tories.
Not quite my point. To listen to some in the press on PB you would be forgiven for believing that leavers were so incensed at what is going on that they are on the brink of civil unrest. UKIP then poll 8.6% in a by-election.
It's not happening. The ultras in their comfortable newspaper offices are desperately trying to whip up the troops into a frenzy but most of the troops (Yaxley-Lennon apart) are remaining steadfastly unwipped. Farage's pitiful march was another indication.
It wasn’t people who wanted to respect the referendum result that were inferring the smaller parties finishing position in the Newport by election would infer anything re the nationwide mood.
UKIP saving a deposit with its current set up is surprising though.
I see, wrong sort of UKIP!
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are.
You'd have to ask him, but I would disagree that Newport West was "the ideal opportunity"
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Hmmm. I definitely feel I personally have much more in common with people in other EU countries like Germany, France, and Italy (just to pick the 3 biggest), than with China, India or the USA (taking the 3 biggest in the WTO).
I also think our national interests and concerns are also closer to our European neighbours', than to countries that some might feel we are culturally closer to "like" Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, remind me what other "English-speaking Commonwealth nations" you had in mind were? (there are a few to choose from)
Once the extension is in place it isn't obvious why those MPs happy with a delay would vote to resolve the deal impasse in the options exercise on Monday.
Edit/ This surely makes a PV more likely, as a way to cement the extension?
The EU’s proposal is because they think they will get a better deal from Parliament than from May
Who the hell are the 7,000+ people who voted Conservative in Newport West?
Seriously you've got to be out of your mid to vioe Tory at this point?
The 7,000 plus Tory voters are fanatics about sentence construction and spelling ....
Don't start on me your Lordship I was up until nearly 2am waiting for a Tory evisceration that didn't happen!
It's the hope that kill you ....
A factor to take into account is that whilst BREXIT continues to suck the life out of the chattering classes, media and dare I say the denizens of PB, it is not the lifeblood of the overwhelming majority of Mr & Mrs Joe Voter who for the most part go about their daily lives completely unencumbered by, albeit fed up with BREXIT.
Mr. Foremain, but not domestically. And exporting to any market (whether a nation or trading bloc) requires said export to meet the requisite standards of the market.
Whereas under the EU, UK firms, even that are 100% domestic and export nothing to the other EU member-states, must obey all EU standards.
That's true, but is that a problem? I mean outside of the EU, 100% domestic firms would have to obey UK standards, and I don't see any good reason why UK standards would be generally better than EU standards, thought hopefully somebody could give some examples?
Indeed Mr Kamski. Although Mr Dancer is one of the more thoughtful and polite Leave inclined posters, I am not sure this area is one that he has thought through.
One of the foremost and successful "notified bodies" (organisation that helps companies comply with conformity and safety regs) in Europe is actually British; BSI, formally known as the British Standards Institute, and it, in itself is a highly successful business. Thanks to the Brexit madness it is relocating to Amsterdam. We have an excellent history of standards and measures. Why not have them aligned to our nearest and largest market? It would be madness not to, and no advantage to British business whatsoever. Unless, of course, Mr Dancer is advocating that products sold in Britain should not have to conform to safety and measurement standards? Maybe he is.
"Flextension" has possibilities. It could develop into "hexaflextension" for example, as way of describing the contortions and many-sidedness of May-Corbyn, Grieve-Cooper, Spelman-Dromey etc etc.
Who the hell are the 7,000+ people who voted Conservative in Newport West?
Seriously you've got to be out of your mid to vioe Tory at this point?
The 7,000 plus Tory voters are fanatics about sentence construction and spelling ....
Don't start on me your Lordship I was up until nearly 2am waiting for a Tory evisceration that didn't happen!
It's the hope that kill you ....
A factor to take into account is that whilst BREXIT continues to suck the life out of the chattering classes, media and dare I say the denizens of PB, it is not the lifeblood of the overwhelming majority of Mr & Mrs Joe Voter who for the most part go about their daily lives completely unencumbered by, albeit fed up with BREXIT.
My Mum, who would never allow anything but the News on at 6pm when I was growing up, now switches over because it will all be about 'the B word'
You've got plaid, ld and that renew lot grubbing about the deposit mark in a low turnout and you have this week talking about Corbyn needing to consider second referendum carefully based on it. Bizarre. Especially as their combined rise equaled that for the no deal loon party. Inconclusive at best
If ever there was a moment when leavers had the chance of a free hit in a by-election when Brexit is supposedly being "betrayed" I would have thought this would have been it.
They got 8.6% so I think it is fair to say that the population is nowhere near as enraged about Brexit as the Mail, Telegraph and a few PB posters keep telling us they are. Very timely by-election
The choice was between a People's Vote backing Labour candidate and a Tory candidate who voted to Leave, in a remarkably safe Labour seat, 9 years into Tory governance and there was a swing from the the Labour to the Tories.
Not quite my point. To listen to some in the press on PB you would be forgiven for believing that leavers were so incensed at what is going on that they are on the brink of civil unrest. UKIP then poll 8.6% in a by-election.
It's not happening. The ultras in their comfortable newspaper offices are desperately trying to whip up the troops into a frenzy but most of the troops (Yaxley-Lennon apart) are remaining steadfastly unwipped. Farage's pitiful march was another indication.
It wasn’t people who wanted to respect the referendum result that were inferring the smaller parties finishing position in the Newport by election would infer anything re the nationwide mood.
UKIP saving a deposit with its current set up is surprising though.
I see, wrong sort of UKIP!
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are. Perhaps he knows that they aren't, his "march" should have given him a clue!
Farage is just a poseur. Dangerous, but still, fundamentally, a poseur.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Yes, I suppose that's true. It's going to cost them a huge amount though, financially and reputationally.
It's worth remembering as well that no corporations have a god-given right to exist forever; history is littered with once dominant companies who went to the wall or ended up as shadows of their former selves.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
If ever there was a moment when leavers had the chance of a free hit in a by-election when Brexit is supposedly being "betrayed" I would have thought this would have been it.
They got 8.6% so I think it is fair to say that the population is nowhere near as enraged about Brexit as the Mail, Telegraph and a few PB posters keep telling us they are. Very timely by-election
The choice was between a People's Vote backing Labour candidate and a Tory candidate who voted to Leave, in a remarkably safe Labour seat, 9 years into Tory governance and there was a swing from the the Labour to the Tories.
Not quite my point. To listen to some in the press on PB you would be forgiven for believing that leavers were so incensed at what is going on that they are on the brink of civil unrest. UKIP then poll 8.6% in a by-election.
It's not happening. The ultras in their comfortable newspaper offices are desperately trying to whip up the troops into a frenzy but most of the troops (Yaxley-Lennon apart) are remaining steadfastly unwipped. Farage's pitiful march was another indication.
It wasn’t people who wanted to respect the referendum result that were inferring the smaller parties finishing position in the Newport by election would infer anything re the nationwide mood.
UKIP saving a deposit with its current set up is surprising though.
I see, wrong sort of UKIP!
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are. Perhaps he knows that they aren't, his "march" should have given him a clue!
Farage is just a poseur. Dangerous, but still, fundamentally, a poseur.
He's been banging on about Leaving for 20 years though. If he's a poseur he's a very determined one.
Jenkin on R4 just now: "leaving the EU means GB becoming a free country, with this deal we do not become a free country, therefore this deal is not leaving the EU" five seconds later : "I am in favour of leaving under WTO rules"
sorry, but if we have to follow WTO rules we are not a free country.
I guess under his definition the only "free country" in the world is North Korea
Yes we are a free country under WTO rules.
Yup, in exactly the same way as we are a free country in the EU, or in the single market, or in the customs union...
No we are not.
Don't WTO rules mean the UK has to follow international rules and obligations?
Yes international rules and obligations.
In the EU and Customs Union are national rules and obligations are set internationally.
Can you rephrase this, I don't understand what you mean
WTO rules are international affecting everyone. For instance the concept of MFN.
EU/Customs Union rules are national affecting the nations it applies to.
Under the WTO we would be a free nation setting our own national laws within the established international order. In the EU/CU some of our national rules will be set by the EU. In the latter case without us even getting a say.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
The differences are (a) the EU’s remit is wider and can be expanded without our veto and (b) we can be consistently outvoted in the EU
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
More time than I've spent in any individual EU nation, a few weeks at a time every couple of years. My in-laws live there. Why?
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
If the Cooper Bill has forced the Government to request a longer extension already it is serving its purpose.
Looks like the EU are going to give a longer extension anyway with the option for the UK to leave as soon as a deal is agreed. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. A long extension will just mean a continuation of squabbling at Westminster and no agreement on anything.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
More time than I've spent in any individual EU nation, a few weeks at a time every couple of years. My in-laws live there. Why?
I just wondered as I know you grew up in Australia but hadn't seen you mention anything about Canada.
For a supposedly smart bloke, Tomkins shows worrying signs of being dumb. Didn't he at some Holyrood finance committee ask why companies should pay tax when they didn't have a vote?
That is a philosophically coherent position (tax the owners not the entity). But limited real world practicality.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Does the US prosecute corporate manslaughter? Someone needs to be accountable
Which is worse VW's fiddling of emmissions tests or Boeing's alleged short-cutting of certification?
Boeing's led to direct deaths so probably the latter but the certification process was decided by the FAA not them. VW committed outright fraud which I don't think Boeing have actually been accused of.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
More time than I've spent in any individual EU nation, a few weeks at a time every couple of years. My in-laws live there. Why?
I just wondered as I know you grew up in Australia but hadn't seen you mention anything about Canada.
If you think meeting your girlfriend's parents the first time is stressful, imagine having to fly thousands of miles to meet them for the first time then stay in their home for weeks...
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Does the US prosecute corporate manslaughter? Someone needs to be accountable
Which is worse VW's fiddling of emmissions tests or Boeing's alleged short-cutting of certification?
Boeing's led to direct deaths so probably the latter but the certification process was decided by the FAA not them. VW committed outright fraud which I don't think Boeing have actually been accused of.
Yes, sounds reasonable. One thing it reinforces for me is that large corporates need close scrutiny.
Peterborough looks VERY interesting after this result
All the various parties contending to be the true Leave vote are going to knock each other out. Easy Labour hold.
Bold. If farages mob stand then perhaps but UKIP are useless. Plus there will be some punishment vote against labour for standing a crook last time. Tories won in 2005 when behind nationally and got 35% in the annus horribilis 97. Any swing to cons sees them take the seat
Plus, east Midlands. Trending away from labour innit
Mr. Kamski, I was referring to your post extolling the idea of the EU setting all our regulations.
Mr. Foremain, any chance you could point me to the post where I suggested British products should have no safety standards?
Mr Dancer, I see. I'm not sure exactly which regulations we are talking about. But if the UK sets its own standards these are generally unlikely to be set by referendum or parliament. I mean, the maximum amount of pesticide residue allowed in baby food is unlikely to become an election issue. If the UK makes its own rules, won't they still be set by "unelected bureaucrats"? We will just be inefficiently duplicating work done by the EU, won't we?
I guess Mr Foremain is asking the question: if we have different safety standards to the rest of the EU in which direction are we going to change? lower safety standards? stricter safety standards? neither direction makes much sense does it?
And, despite the greater democratic distance, where there are disputes between the EU and national governments I have the impression (maybe wrong) that the EU is doing a slightly better job of trying to look after the interests of EU citizens than national governments. I'm thinking of things like fights over the amount of air pollution in the air we breathe.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size of the group.
For me it's not a question of principle, but whether you think, like me, that we have more in common (and more common interests) with our European neighbours, and therefore it is in our interests to share more rules with them, than with the wider 159 members of the WTO. Or not.
But claiming In the EU=not a free country. Remaining a member of other international organisations/treaties=we are a free country is illogical
I think some people just hate the idea of Britain cooperating with other Europeans, and having to treat people like the Germans as equals. Obviously not true of lots of leavers, but people like Jenkin really annoy me.
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Hmmm. I definitely feel I personally have much more in common with people in other EU countries like Germany, France, and Italy (just to pick the 3 biggest), than with China, India or the USA (taking the 3 biggest in the WTO).
I also think our national interests and concerns are also closer to our European neighbours', than to countries that some might feel we are culturally closer to "like" Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, remind me what other "English-speaking Commonwealth nations" you had in mind were? (there are a few to choose from)
edit: sorry this was a reply to Philip_Thompson
Living in the US for five years and working with people from all over the world taught me that the cultural differences between the US and the UK are vast while the cultural similarities between the UK and other northern Europeans (Irish, Scandis, Dutch, Germans and French in decreasing order of cultural distance) are pretty small. Of course the language barrier is the key reason we think we identify more with the US than with our European neighbours, but since I was working with Europeans who spoke perfect English it wasn't an issue and the cultural similarities were much more manifest. My impression is that Australia and Canada are more like us than the US is, but that was based on short visits, and both countries seemed more like the US than the UK.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Does the US prosecute corporate manslaughter? Someone needs to be accountable
Which is worse VW's fiddling of emmissions tests or Boeing's alleged short-cutting of certification?
One was straight forward corruption with no loss of life (I’m sure they’ll be claims of a gazillion more hypothetical people killed by air pollution, but the reality is a big fat zero).
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Does the US prosecute corporate manslaughter? Someone needs to be accountable
Which is worse VW's fiddling of emmissions tests or Boeing's alleged short-cutting of certification?
Boeing's led to direct deaths so probably the latter but the certification process was decided by the FAA not them. VW committed outright fraud which I don't think Boeing have actually been accused of.
Yes, sounds reasonable. One thing it reinforces for me is that large corporates need close scrutiny.
The scrutiny needs to be smart not a box ticking exercise.
VW and Boeing met plenty of box ticking exercises. Albeit one fraudulently.
Mr. Kamski, disagree. The EU's approach to Amazon/VAT was meant to help consumers but ended up harming small and micro-businesses, whilst helping Amazon (because the extra red tape forced many smaller firms/individuals to move to marketplace websites like Amazon).
To combat ISIS-sold antiquities, a noble goal, the EU made things far more difficult for antique booksellers working legitimately. Now ISIS has lost all its territory, have the rules been loosened? Not that I'm aware of.
Articles 13 and 11 are great ways to shaft the internet with the deranged ideas of a link tax and an apparent attempt to help protect copyright which many fear, and it seems a legitimate concern, will end up stifling creativity and hammering smaller creative businesses.
The EU is technologically illiterate, unaware of the most basic concepts of business, and frankly delinquent when it comes to drafting laws like this.
UK politicians aren't great, but we don't need another layer of bureaucratic morons imposing this sort of bullshit on us.
Peterborough looks VERY interesting after this result
All the various parties contending to be the true Leave vote are going to knock each other out. Easy Labour hold.
Hmm, I reckon the Tories will win the seat whilst going backwards. Anyway I'll shut up about it now till hopefully some odds come out
They should, but as Alastair suggests it depends on whether leave voters divide between The Popular Front of Brexit, The People's Front and the Brexit People's Front. Not sure how I would vote if I lived there. Is the Tory candidate a Brexit hardliner or does she/he have a brain?
Peterborough looks VERY interesting after this result
All the various parties contending to be the true Leave vote are going to knock each other out. Easy Labour hold.
Hmm, I reckon the Tories will win the seat whilst going backwards. Anyway I'll shut up about it now till hopefully some odds come out
They should, but as Alastair suggests it depends on whether leave voters divide between The Popular Front of Brexit, The People's Front and the Brexit People's Front. Not sure how I would vote if I lived there. Is the Tory candidate a Brexit hardliner or does she/he have a brain?
The continued speculation about changing the "Brexit date" by a few weeks and the threat of no deal in one week is good for no European economy and frankly an absurd way to do politics. The 2 year notice that comes with Article 50 was sensible, but we are where we are now, and another approach is needed.
A formal brexit date should now be withdrawn, but the negotiations votes etc carry on. Once the EU and the UK have agreed the withdrawal plan, then a two month notice is given with a definite date and known leaving conditions. This would allow comanpies and citizens to make realistic plans without having to hav 3 short term contingency plans.
Anyone who objects, saying that then Brexit will never happen, i reply "if the political will for Brexit is there then it will happen and Brexit is so big, we need to get it right, not rushed through in a few days just to meet a deadline"
I guess if Nick Griffin told people to stop judging others on the colour of their skin it would be hard to say his words were not correct.
Campbell's reply wasn't exactly in complete agreement...
There is a difference in kind between calling someone "a piece of shit" and accusing them of treason.
I think a truer comparison is the practise of labelling those we don't agree with 'extremists'. This type of vilification is equally dangerous to our society.
May asking for June 30th is madness. Queuing up to be humiliated in the EU elections.
Don't stand candidates - it's pointless.
Shes hoping to get the Corbyn compromise though and cancel them. If labour are on board they are unlikely to whip for a referendum as they would presumably have to campaign approve and leave. Even if they whip a referendum isn't passing imo
Living in the US for five years and working with people from all over the world taught me that the cultural differences between the US and the UK are vast while the cultural similarities between the UK and other northern Europeans (Irish, Scandis, Dutch, Germans and French in decreasing order of cultural distance) are pretty small. Of course the language barrier is the key reason we think we identify more with the US than with our European neighbours, but since I was working with Europeans who spoke perfect English it wasn't an issue and the cultural similarities were much more manifest. My impression is that Australia and Canada are more like us than the US is, but that was based on short visits, and both countries seemed more like the US than the UK.
I deliberately didn't say the US. I have lived in Australia, it is very much the UK with US influences and more sunshine. The UK itself now has US influences too.
You could transport Melbourne into the UK and it would not feel alien.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Surprised Boeing's share price hasn't taken more of a pasting tbh.
Regardless of what happens they will remain in a duopoly and recover.
Does the US prosecute corporate manslaughter? Someone needs to be accountable
Which is worse VW's fiddling of emmissions tests or Boeing's alleged short-cutting of certification?
Boeing's led to direct deaths so probably the latter but the certification process was decided by the FAA not them. VW committed outright fraud which I don't think Boeing have actually been accused of.
Higher emissions = higher deaths too. If they'd told the truth about the real level of emissions, it might have caused Governments to eradicate diesel engines sooner.
That said, the paper trail up through Boeing senior management is going to be interesting....
I guess if Nick Griffin told people to stop judging others on the colour of their skin it would be hard to say his words were not correct.
Campbell's reply wasn't exactly in complete agreement...
There is a difference in kind between calling someone "a piece of shit" and accusing them of treason.
I think a truer comparison is the practise of labelling those we don't agree with 'extremists'. This type of vilification is equally dangerous to our society.
Accusations of treason are extreme. Great claims require great evidence. The evidence that the nutjobs seem to think is sufficient is having a different view of the best way forward for the country.
Oddly, these selfsame nutjobs often seem entirely happy at the prospect of working with foreign powers to bring about their own aims.
I guess if Nick Griffin told people to stop judging others on the colour of their skin it would be hard to say his words were not correct.
Campbell's reply wasn't exactly in complete agreement...
There is a difference in kind between calling someone "a piece of shit" and accusing them of treason.
I think a truer comparison is the practise of labelling those we don't agree with 'extremists'. This type of vilification is equally dangerous to our society.
Would you describe, say, Tommy Robinson as an extremist, or just someone we (whoever 'we' is) should respectfully disagree with.
May asking for June 30th is madness. Queuing up to be humiliated in the EU elections.
Don't stand candidates - it's pointless.
As it is D'Hondt, voting someone else other than the Tories doesn't help Labour either.
Voting Labour helps Labour or are you claiming that voting Labour is not "voting someone else other than the Tories"
Sorry I meant that if you don't want Labour to "win" then in FPTP normally you need to vote Conservative, but in D'Hondt there is no post so you can vote for someone else you want to see represent you in the Euro Parliament without the vote in effect boosting Labour.
I guess if Nick Griffin told people to stop judging others on the colour of their skin it would be hard to say his words were not correct.
Campbell's reply wasn't exactly in complete agreement...
There is a difference in kind between calling someone "a piece of shit" and accusing them of treason.
I think a truer comparison is the practise of labelling those we don't agree with 'extremists'. This type of vilification is equally dangerous to our society.
Accusations of treason are extreme. Great claims require great evidence. The evidence that the nutjobs seem to think is sufficient is having a different view of the best way forward for the country.
Oddly, these selfsame nutjobs often seem entirely happy at the prospect of working with foreign powers to bring about their own aims.
Yes they're extreme but not as extreme as wishing someone's death upon them as Campbell did with the 'run over by a bus' comment.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
More time than I've spent in any individual EU nation, a few weeks at a time every couple of years. My in-laws live there. Why?
I just wondered as I know you grew up in Australia but hadn't seen you mention anything about Canada.
If you think meeting your girlfriend's parents the first time is stressful, imagine having to fly thousands of miles to meet them for the first time then stay in their home for weeks...
We are very much a European country in culture - the only thing that connects us to the culturally very different Commonwealth and US is language. We were part of the European family long before the Pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts and have never stopped so being. The sooner we in England realise we are just a medium sized region of Europe that has nonsensically cut itself off from any say in the workings of our central government the better. The idea that we are somehow “fee” of the entity we are part of, when all we have done is deprive ourselves of any say in its government, will be seen as the insanity it is in a few short years.
I rather think the concern was that the UK Government would enthusiastically take us in to the EU army, not that it would have been dragged in without its consent. We didn't get a vote to install a Government and political class that fought tooth and nail for the interests of the British people, we got a vote on whether to leave the EU. You do the best with what you're given.
WTO rules only apply to countries that belong to the WTO, not "everyone". EU rules only apply to countries that belong to the EU. I don't see a fundamental difference, just one of degree, and the size
No we do not have more in common with Europeans. We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and even in our Common Law legal system with English-speaking Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do Germany, Hungary or Romania.
So we should get out of this unnatural union with Europeans with 'foreign' legal systems like Scotland's?
Yes. Did you miss the debate yesterday?
It's pretty hard to sustain the argument that "we" have more in common with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than we do with other Europeans if you're including Scotland in the other category.
I think we have more in common with Scotland than the others but I think we should still dissolve the UK anyway despite that.
Incidentally, how much time have you spent in Canada?
More time than I've spent in any individual EU nation, a few weeks at a time every couple of years. My in-laws live there. Why?
I just wondered as I know you grew up in Australia but hadn't seen you mention anything about Canada.
If you think meeting your girlfriend's parents the first time is stressful, imagine having to fly thousands of miles to meet them for the first time then stay in their home for weeks...
We are very much a European country in culture - the only thing that connects us to the culturally very different Commonwealth and US is language. We were part of the European family long before the Pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts and have never stopped so being. The sooner we in England realise we are just a medium sized region of Europe that has nonsensically cut itself off from any day in the workings of our central government the better. The idea that we are somehow “fee” of the entity we are part of, when all we have done is deprive ourselves of any say in its government, will be seen as the insanity it is in a few short years.
Utterly absurd claim. What makes us culturally more different than say Australia than we are say Romania?
The first point about the Newport West numbers is how close they are to the 2010 and 2015 GE numbers so roughly 40% Labour and 30% Conservative. The rest of the voters have been widely shared across a range of votes - in 2010 about 15% voted LD and in 2015 15% voted UKIP. In 2017 Plaid, UKIP, the LDs and Greens got 8.5% between them - last night it was 22% with Renew getting nearly 4% so a big swing away from the two main parties and to the smaller parties.
Nationally, it's the contrast between the GEs of June 1970 and Feb 1974. In 1970, the Conservative and Labour parties won 89.5% of the vote and in Feb 1974 that fell to 75.1%. In 2017 the two main parties won 82.4% of the vote - if we are reverting to 2010/2015 norms we would be looking at 65-70% so both Conservative and Labour parties looking at big vote share falls which won't be reflected in falls in seats to anywhere near the same extent.
That would chime with recent polls putting both Conservative and Labour in the mid 30s but with the rest of the vote continuing to be widely spread with both UKIP and LDs doing better but still a long way from their optimum GE performances.
The preliminary investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 last month revealed Thursday that pilots began fighting the Boeing 737 MAX’s new automatic flight-control system barely a minute after leaving the ground, after a sensor failed shortly after takeoff....
The “black box” flight-recorder data shows that after MCAS swiveled the plane’s horizontal tail to push the nose sharply down three times in succession, the pilots hit the cut-off switches stopping the automatic action and tried to adjust the tail manually, according to the report by the Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry.
In doing so, they were following instructions provided by Boeing last November, following the crash of Lion Air Flight 610, on how to deal with such an inadvertent triggering of the new flight-control system.
Whilst screwing up the EU would be hilarious it would also be damaging economically and to any chance of being seen worldwide as more than Miss Haversham, a sad old crone pissing herself in her 50 year old wedding gown and taking out her bitterness on all around. So, shits and giggles versus being a power, however fading
I rather think the concern was that the UK Government would enthusiastically take us in to the EU army, not that it would have been dragged in without its consent. We didn't get a vote to install a Government and political class that fought tooth and nail for the interests of the British people, we got a vote on whether to leave the EU. You do the best with what you're given.
So Brexit was about saving us from our own governments? An interesting concept.
Comments
What stopped Farage standing the by election on a clear Leave Means Leave platform? He could have actually done something and put his money where his mouth was instead of just spouting hot air. What was he afraid of?
With nothing still settled on Brexit it would seem to have been the ideal opportunity for him to influence the debate and demonstrate that leavers are all as irate as he claims they are. Perhaps he knows that they aren't, his "march" should have given him a clue!
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/793058/PM_letter_to_His_Excellency_Mr_Donald_Tusk__1_.pdf
Two groups both afraid of no deal rushing each other to the finish.
It does however explain why the Tory Lords were willing to abandon their games yesterday afternoon in return for the debate spilling over to Monday.
Its activists not voters that are deserting imo but that will weigh in a general
Because I like straight bananas.
Then they came for the inefficient vacuum cleaners, and I did not speak out
Because I had a Henry Hoover
Then they came for the curved cucumbers, and I did not speak out
Because I don’t like cucumbers
Then they came for the vegan sausages. Now it’s fu*king war!
I also think our national interests and concerns are also closer to our European neighbours', than to countries that some might feel we are culturally closer to "like" Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, remind me what other "English-speaking Commonwealth nations" you had in mind were? (there are a few to choose from)
edit: sorry this was a reply to Philip_Thompson
*sighs*
I shall be having a ham sandwich for lunch to make myself feel better. And also a cheese sandwich.
A factor to take into account is that whilst BREXIT continues to suck the life out of the chattering classes, media and dare I say the denizens of PB, it is not the lifeblood of the overwhelming majority of Mr & Mrs Joe Voter who for the most part go about their daily lives completely unencumbered by, albeit fed up with BREXIT.
One of the foremost and successful "notified bodies" (organisation that helps companies comply with conformity and safety regs) in Europe is actually British; BSI, formally known as the British Standards Institute, and it, in itself is a highly successful business. Thanks to the Brexit madness it is relocating to Amsterdam. We have an excellent history of standards and measures. Why not have them aligned to our nearest and largest market? It would be madness not to, and no advantage to British business whatsoever. Unless, of course, Mr Dancer is advocating that products sold in Britain should not have to conform to safety and measurement standards? Maybe he is.
It's worth remembering as well that no corporations have a god-given right to exist forever; history is littered with once dominant companies who went to the wall or ended up as shadows of their former selves.
Mr. Foremain, any chance you could point me to the post where I suggested British products should have no safety standards?
Campbell's reply wasn't exactly in complete agreement, although had a Finbar Saunders-esque quality
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results” Albert Einstein
Plus, east Midlands. Trending away from labour innit
I guess Mr Foremain is asking the question: if we have different safety standards to the rest of the EU in which direction are we going to change? lower safety standards? stricter safety standards? neither direction makes much sense does it?
And, despite the greater democratic distance, where there are disputes between the EU and national governments I have the impression (maybe wrong) that the EU is doing a slightly better job of trying to look after the interests of EU citizens than national governments. I'm thinking of things like fights over the amount of air pollution in the air we breathe.
VW and Boeing met plenty of box ticking exercises. Albeit one fraudulently.
Mr. Kamski, disagree. The EU's approach to Amazon/VAT was meant to help consumers but ended up harming small and micro-businesses, whilst helping Amazon (because the extra red tape forced many smaller firms/individuals to move to marketplace websites like Amazon).
To combat ISIS-sold antiquities, a noble goal, the EU made things far more difficult for antique booksellers working legitimately. Now ISIS has lost all its territory, have the rules been loosened? Not that I'm aware of.
Articles 13 and 11 are great ways to shaft the internet with the deranged ideas of a link tax and an apparent attempt to help protect copyright which many fear, and it seems a legitimate concern, will end up stifling creativity and hammering smaller creative businesses.
The EU is technologically illiterate, unaware of the most basic concepts of business, and frankly delinquent when it comes to drafting laws like this.
UK politicians aren't great, but we don't need another layer of bureaucratic morons imposing this sort of bullshit on us.
Don't stand candidates - it's pointless.
A formal brexit date should now be withdrawn, but the negotiations votes etc carry on. Once the EU and the UK have agreed the withdrawal plan, then a two month notice is given with a definite date and known leaving conditions. This would allow comanpies and citizens to make realistic plans without having to hav 3 short term contingency plans.
Anyone who objects, saying that then Brexit will never happen, i reply "if the political will for Brexit is there then it will happen and Brexit is so big, we need to get it right, not rushed through in a few days just to meet a deadline"
https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1114089657300602880
You could transport Melbourne into the UK and it would not feel alien.
That said, the paper trail up through Boeing senior management is going to be interesting....
Oddly, these selfsame nutjobs often seem entirely happy at the prospect of working with foreign powers to bring about their own aims.
The first point about the Newport West numbers is how close they are to the 2010 and 2015 GE numbers so roughly 40% Labour and 30% Conservative. The rest of the voters have been widely shared across a range of votes - in 2010 about 15% voted LD and in 2015 15% voted UKIP. In 2017 Plaid, UKIP, the LDs and Greens got 8.5% between them - last night it was 22% with Renew getting nearly 4% so a big swing away from the two main parties and to the smaller parties.
Nationally, it's the contrast between the GEs of June 1970 and Feb 1974. In 1970, the Conservative and Labour parties won 89.5% of the vote and in Feb 1974 that fell to 75.1%. In 2017 the two main parties won 82.4% of the vote - if we are reverting to 2010/2015 norms we would be looking at 65-70% so both Conservative and Labour parties looking at big vote share falls which won't be reflected in falls in seats to anywhere near the same extent.
That would chime with recent polls putting both Conservative and Labour in the mid 30s but with the rest of the vote continuing to be widely spread with both UKIP and LDs doing better but still a long way from their optimum GE performances.