There seems to be an assumption that the people who voted Leave didn't know what they were voting for, and didn't really want to leave the EU... if we were to accept that argument, and the establishment managed somehow to wriggle out of actually leaving, what would they do to address the concerns of the majority of 2016 referendum voters?
It seems to me that a "business as usual" / "pretend it never happened" attitude prevails, the formation of Chuka/TIG being the most glaring example.
"...what would they do to address the concerns of the majority of 2016 referendum voters?"
Anyone?
You raise a very good point. I think this is worthy of a thread header. How do you think these concerns should be addressed?
Thank you.
I think it is impossible to address those concerns whilst we are a member of the EU, because the concerns all stem from FOM, which appears to be non negotiable. But I’d be interested to hear how people who want to ignore the result would deal with them
If even just over 3.5% of Leave voters were willing to accept a Brexit that included retaining FOM, then there was NO majority against FOM at the 2016 referendum.
I do not believe that over 96.35% of Leave voters were voting to end FOM. Do you?
A few days before the referendum a yougov poll had 42% of Leave voters saying they would prefer an EEA Brexit which retained FoM to 45% wanting a Brexit which did not.
EEA is what we should have been aiming for all along.
EEA is more viable now as immigration from the EU has fallen since the Brexit vote but yes I would now take EEA gladly over No Deal or Revoke but sadly the extremists on both the Leave and Remain sides seem more determined to play Russian roulette with Brexit than seek a compromise
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
If, as Hammond said, the country is at an inflection point, wouldn't you rather give that decision than leave it to parliament?
They didn’t listen last time why would they listen again until they get the answer they want
This time the vote has two clearly defined outcomes - either we ratify the WA or revoke A50. It could be made binding in law.
When you consider that the Hammonds and Gaukes, who have said they will resign both their jobs and the Conservative Party rather than vote for no deal, remained loyal tonight, they and we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those few Tories like Letwin who were brave enough to make a stand.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the streets if we crash out in chaos causing multiple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
What an absolubte fucking disgrace, passed with Fiona Onasunya's vote.
Netted off by the vote of the disgraced fraudster Chris Davies.
+1. I thought the same so they cancel each other out and it is still Maj of 1 for the Cooper amendment. I wish people would not make false representations about democracy being debased when they are incorrect.
Hmm, this result doesn't exactly give a clear direction from parliament which would encourage the EU to give us a bit of leeway. This is not enough to take a catastrophic accidental No Deal off the table.
The Commons also voted for extension beyond May 22nd thus enabling participation in the EU elections.
Plus on tonight's numbers if no other alternative to No Deal hard to see how a majority of MPs do not vote to revoke Art 50 and cancel Brexit
Revoke was not one of the choices tonight. That vote would be very different
Considering Extend beat No Deal by 1 vote, it doesn't seem guaranteed at all that revoke would win.
There seems to be an assumption that the people who voted Leave didn't know what they were voting for, and didn't really want to leave the EU... if we were to accept that argument, and the establishment managed somehow to wriggle out of actually leaving, what would they do to address the concerns of the majority of 2016 referendum voters?
It seems to me that a "business as usual" / "pretend it never happened" attitude prevails, the formation of Chuka/TIG being the most glaring example.
"...what would they do to address the concerns of the majority of 2016 referendum voters?"
Anyone?
You raise a very good point. I think this is worthy of a thread header. How do you think these concerns should be addressed?
Thank you.
I think it is impossible to address those concerns whilst we are a member of the EU, because the concerns all stem from FOM, which appears to be non negotiable. But I’d be interested to hear how people who want to ignore the result would deal with them
If even just over 3.5% of Leave voters were willing to accept a Brexit that included retaining FOM, then there was NO majority against FOM at the 2016 referendum.
I do not believe that over 96.35% of Leave voters were voting to end FOM. Do you?
Honestly those kind of comments are just riduculous, because there are Remainers who disagree with FOM but who voted to stay because they work in the city and worry about the risk to their (very high) income.
You think a referendum on FOM would be won by those who want to keep it?
Who knows? But we didn't have a referendum on FOM, did we?
My favourite piece of polling on FOM is the poll that similtaneously supported FOM for Britons in the EU and opposed it for Europeans in Britain. Sadly not to hand.
There is some logic to back that thought process up though.
British people who migrate to other EU countries tend to be affluent than the areas they migrate to.
With immigrants to the UK from other EU countries the opposite is the usual case.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
I was at a dinner tonight with a group of our running club friends who represented a mix from fervent Remain to pro-Brexit. There was no sign from the Remainers that the time had changed but everyone of those who voted for Brexit said that they were disillusioned with how things had turned out. I wouldn't said they would riot but May has definitely lost their votes - and not gained any support from Remainers in return.
When you consider that the Hammonds and Gaukes, who have said they will resign both their jobs and the Conservative Party rather than vote for no deal, remained loyal tonight, they and we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those few Tories like Letwin who were brave enough to make a stand.
Hammond and Gauke I think would abstain on a Revoke v No Deal vote, tonight they voted with the Government and against Cooper
Hmm, this result doesn't exactly give a clear direction from parliament which would encourage the EU to give us a bit of leeway. This is not enough to take a catastrophic accidental No Deal off the table.
The Commons also voted for extension beyond May 22nd thus enabling participation in the EU elections.
Plus on tonight's numbers if no other alternative to No Deal hard to see how a majority of MPs do not vote to revoke Art 50 and cancel Brexit
Revoke was not one of the choices tonight. That vote would be very different
Considering Extend beat No Deal by 1 vote, it doesn't seem guaranteed at all that revoke would win.
It does, because if it came to a real decision, the considerable payroll vote would split.
When you consider that the Hammonds and Gaukes, who have said they will resign both their jobs and the Conservative Party rather than vote for no deal, remained loyal tonight, they and we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those few Tories like Letwin who were brave enough to make a stand.
I have called out ERG and no deal for longer than I can remember
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the street if we crash out in chaos causing mulitple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
Its worse than that.
Those same nutjobs want No Deal with Fox and Grayling in charge of trade and transport.
I struggle to find any redeeming qualities in Phillip Hammond.
No one complaining about unemployment. No one complaining about inflation. No one complaining about high interest rates. Chancellors in the past would have given their eye teeth for that.
He is the only adult in the room at Cabinet, which is why he is hated by the Brexiteers.
Hammond was seriously impressive on Peston. By far the most talented Tory. Sadly, as a pro-business, eurorealistic moderate he has no chance of winning over the moondogs in the Tory membership.
O/T, if pb'ers are looking for a book to read, may I recommend All Among the Barley by Melissa Harrison? Absolutely wonderful and with an ending that will make you reflect once you have finished.
Hmm, this result doesn't exactly give a clear direction from parliament which would encourage the EU to give us a bit of leeway. This is not enough to take a catastrophic accidental No Deal off the table.
The Commons also voted for extension beyond May 22nd thus enabling participation in the EU elections.
Plus on tonight's numbers if no other alternative to No Deal hard to see how a majority of MPs do not vote to revoke Art 50 and cancel Brexit
Revoke was not one of the choices tonight. That vote would be very different
Considering Extend beat No Deal by 1 vote, it doesn't seem guaranteed at all that revoke would win.
I think it would, but with a majority in single or low double figures.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
I struggle to find any redeeming qualities in Phillip Hammond.
No one complaining about unemployment. No one complaining about inflation. No one complaining about high interest rates. Chancellors in the past would have given their eye teeth for that.
He is the only adult in the room at Cabinet, which is why he is hated by the Brexiteers.
Hammond was seriously impressive on Peston. By far the most talented Tory. Sadly, as a pro-business, eurorealistic moderate he has no chance of winning over the moondogs in the Tory membership.
Hammond is an interventionist. Would be more at home in New Labour.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the street if we crash out in chaos causing mulitple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
Perhaps what we need is a series of indicative riots to determine the way forward.
First up - Ken Clarke will be organising a drunken brawl in Belgravia, in favour of a permanent Customs Union.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the streets if we crash out in chaos causing multiple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
I disagree there is a real appetite out there in the real world to walk away from the negotiations
Hmm, this result doesn't exactly give a clear direction from parliament which would encourage the EU to give us a bit of leeway. This is not enough to take a catastrophic accidental No Deal off the table.
If it came to a real choice between extension and no deal, no deal would be defeated comprehensively.
The problem is the transmission mechanism between parliament deciding that and it actually happening, which isn't clear. Cooper's bill provides a mechanism, which is the important missing bit of the jigsaw, but it looks a bit flaky (and still has to pass the Lords).
True. Its efficacy depends heavily on the oft repeated assertion (most frequently from Brexiters) that the EU is actually afraid of no deal.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
I struggle to find any redeeming qualities in Phillip Hammond.
No one complaining about unemployment. No one complaining about inflation. No one complaining about high interest rates. Chancellors in the past would have given their eye teeth for that.
He is the only adult in the room at Cabinet, which is why he is hated by the Brexiteers.
Hammond was seriously impressive on Peston. By far the most talented Tory. Sadly, as a pro-business, eurorealistic moderate he has no chance of winning over the moondogs in the Tory membership.
Mind you if Article 50 is revoked and many Brexit supporting Tory members resign their membership in protest. The unlikely candidate might be in with a chance. Personally, I think he is too unpopular in the country he has dire polling IIRC.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the streets if we crash out in chaos causing multiple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
I disagree there is a real appetite out there in the real world to walk away from the negotiations
A lot of people just want it to end so normal life can continue. They'd be equally happy with revocation.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
If last year's pattern holds, of the Conservatives doing well in leave areas, and poorly in Remain areas, that will limit Conservative losses, due to the nature of the seats being contested.
Hmm, this result doesn't exactly give a clear direction from parliament which would encourage the EU to give us a bit of leeway. This is not enough to take a catastrophic accidental No Deal off the table.
If it came to a real choice between extension and no deal, no deal would be defeated comprehensively.
The problem is the transmission mechanism between parliament deciding that and it actually happening, which isn't clear. Cooper's bill provides a mechanism, which is the important missing bit of the jigsaw, but it looks a bit flaky (and still has to pass the Lords).
True. Its efficacy depends heavily on the oft repeated assertion (most frequently from Brexiters) that the EU is actually afraid of no deal.
They certainly don't want No Deal, and would try hard to avoid it, but not at any price.
Well this evening's vote commits the PM to do something she was going to anyway, but the deciding vote being an MP that really should be in prison (& Certainly wouldn't be at liberty to work in any other workplace) is utterly contemptible.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Well this evening's vote commits the PM to do something she was going to anyway, but the deciding vote being an MP that really should be in prison (& Certainly wouldn't be at liberty to work in any other workplace) is utterly contemptible.
She's probably over the 10% recall threshold already too - terrible bit of drafting, that. OTOH, Remain is a vote short because of Newport W which will probably change tomorrow (though 75 does look big for the Tories, and 10 ludicrously short for UKIP).
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
Where do you live?
Newcastle upon Tyne.
I can’t speak for the north east but here in north west there is anger at the betrayal of brexit and labour are seen trying to block brexit
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the streets if we crash out in chaos causing multiple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
I disagree there is a real appetite out there in the real world to walk away from the negotiations
A lot of people just want it to end so normal life can continue. They'd be equally happy with revocation.
Interestingly, tonight's vote exactly mirrors polling on extending or revoking v leaving without a deal.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Indeed. And there will even bigger riots on the streets if we crash out in chaos causing multiple bankruptcies and job losses. Perhaps the nutjobs who trashed the Withdrawal Agreement which would implement an orderly Brexit, and gave perfect cover to Labour to go through the lobbies with them, should have considered those two points back in November.
I disagree there is a real appetite out there in the real world to walk away from the negotiations
A lot of people just want it to end so normal life can continue. They'd be equally happy with revocation.
I’d disagree with that.
Suspect turnout will vary a lot in local elections. Strong remain and particularly leave areas might be up but Kippers probably won’t be contesting many seats. Stay at home party might have a landslide.
There’s some County Durham seats that have been trending Tory for some time but there’s no chance the urban seats in cities on Tyneside, Wearside, or the other major Northern cities are going to suddenly vote Tory. No chance.
There’s some County Durham seats that have been trending Tory for some time but there’s no chance the urban seats in cities on Tyneside, Wearside, or the other major Northern cities are going to suddenly vote Tory. No chance.
Charles Moore thinks there's a been conspiracy between Labour and the Tories since the referendum to frustrate Brexit: "What really matters to them is that Brexit should be drained of all power."
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
The EU should just set the extension period to 1000 years.
The deadline existed to get the deal made, the deal is made. The British can leave whenever they want, with or without it. The EU don't particularly want them to leave, but they also don't want to stop them. The deadlines don't force anyone to decide anything, because everyone knows they can be extended.
Charles Moore thinks there's a been conspiracy between Labour and the Tories since the referendum to frustrate Brexit: "What really matters to them is that Brexit should be drained of all power."
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
Where do you live?
Newcastle upon Tyne.
I can’t speak for the north east but here in north west there is anger at the betrayal of brexit and labour are seen trying to block brexit
Maybe some of the small town seats but no chance that great swathes of Greater Manchester and Merseyside are going any colour but red.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Why? Who else are leavers going to vote for?
Hopefully the brexit party
You mean Farage’s “I want to keep my MEP expenses” Party? That couldn’t be bothered to contest Newport West? Sorry to disappoint but Farage ain’t saving you.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
If last year's pattern holds, of the Conservatives doing well in leave areas, and poorly in Remain areas, that will limit Conservative losses, due to the nature of the seats being contested.
It's becoming increasingly hard to see the Tories doing well at the locals, due to the shambles itself rather than any Leave/Remain aspect. The few anecdotal reports I've seen or heard from Tory canvassers suggest heavy weather. It'll be interesting to see the next VI polls - and these are national; in local elections people tend more left anyway and there isn't the fear-of-Corbyn factor to shore up the Tory vote.
There’s some County Durham seats that have been trending Tory for some time but there’s no chance the urban seats in cities on Tyneside, Wearside, or the other major Northern cities are going to suddenly vote Tory. No chance.
What about the Brexit Party
Even votes for the Brexit Party on a scale greater than UKIP in their ascendancy is not going to erode 60%+ majorities.
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Why? Who else are leavers going to vote for?
Hopefully the brexit party
You mean Farage’s “I want to keep my MEP expenses” Party? That couldn’t be bothered to contest Newport West? Sorry to disappoint but Farage ain’t saving you.
Farage just wants a platform to justify being interviewed, and in case he needs it to book another stint on the MEP gravy train. I don't think he has much intention of putting in the graft needed to build another genuine national political party. Nor give anyone else the control to do so.
The EU should just set the extension period to 1000 years.
The deadline existed to get the deal made, the deal is made. The British can leave whenever they want, with or without it. The EU don't particularly want them to leave, but they also don't want to stop them. The deadlines don't force anyone to decide anything, because everyone knows they can be extended.
Thornberry and McDonnell have both been in hospital today, and missed votes, certainly earlier in the evening. There are always "what ifs" with close votes.
What an absolubte fucking disgrace, passed with Fiona Onasunya's vote.
Why is it a disgrace?
Er because she's a criminal?
Aren't her 60 days up?
I don't think someone should be able to vote whilst they are serving a sentence ! Just because someone isn't in prison (Which is a cost/overcrowding issue) does not mean they should have complete liberty.
What an absolubte fucking disgrace, passed with Fiona Onasunya's vote.
Why is it a disgrace?
Er because she's a criminal?
Aren't her 60 days up?
I don't think someone should be able to vote whilst they are serving a sentence ! Just because someone isn't in prison (Which is a cost/overcrowding issue) does not mean they should have complete liberty.
I always thought when people were on tag they had to abide by curfews and needed to be home in the evening?
What an absolubte fucking disgrace, passed with Fiona Onasunya's vote.
Why is it a disgrace?
Er because she's a criminal?
Aren't her 60 days up?
I don't think someone should be able to vote whilst they are serving a sentence ! Just because someone isn't in prison (Which is a cost/overcrowding issue) does not mean they should have complete liberty.
You need a change of law then.
Aren't we talking about not jailing anyone with less than a 12 month sentence
What an absolubte fucking disgrace, passed with Fiona Onasunya's vote.
Why is it a disgrace?
Er because she's a criminal?
Aren't her 60 days up?
I don't think someone should be able to vote whilst they are serving a sentence ! Just because someone isn't in prison (Which is a cost/overcrowding issue) does not mean they should have complete liberty.
I always thought when people were on tag they had to abide by curfews and needed to be home in the evening?
I struggle to find any redeeming qualities in Phillip Hammond.
No one complaining about unemployment. No one complaining about inflation. No one complaining about high interest rates. Chancellors in the past would have given their eye teeth for that.
He is the only adult in the room at Cabinet, which is why he is hated by the Brexiteers.
Hammond was seriously impressive on Peston. By far the most talented Tory. Sadly, as a pro-business, eurorealistic moderate he has no chance of winning over the moondogs in the Tory membership.
Hammond is an interventionist. Would be more at home in New Labour.
1st law to be passed when this shitshow is sorted - MPs currently serving a sentence should not be able to vote in parliament.
Hmm. Well the rules are what they are currently, and criminals can vote. I’d rather the misanthropic bigots from the DUP and the hard Tory right didn’t have the vote either, but they do!
The best option now is for the tories to vonc TM either through rule change in the 22 or failing that collapse the government
And what does that do to help ?
The idea is that by doing so, they cause a vacuum of power which results in No Deal by Default.
The problem with the idea is twomany-fold:
1. Mrs May is still in a position to request an extension until a new Prime Minister is appointed by the Queen. She would, I'm sure, ask for a 12 or 18 month extension in that circumstance.
2. There is the very real possibility of a "government of National Unity" coming out of the Commons before a General Election. Such a government would implement a far softer Brexit than Mrs May's deal.
3. Even if a General Election were to flow from the VoNC, who lead the Conservative Party?
4. And even assume someone could be put in place who was suitably Brexity, how do you ensure that the Conservative MPs that are returned are in favour of your kind of deal?
5. And even if you can get that sorted, what happens if the election results in a Hung Parliament?
The best option now is for the tories to vonc TM either through rule change in the 22 or failing that collapse the government
And what does that do to help ?
The idea is that by doing so, they cause a vacuum of power which results in No Deal by Default.
The problem with the idea is twomany-fold:
1. Mrs May is still in a position to request an extension until a new Prime Minister is appointed by the Queen. She would, I'm sure, ask for a 12 or 18 month extension in that circumstance.
2. There is the very real possibility of a "government of National Unity" coming out of the Commons before a General Election. Such a government would implement a far softer Brexit than Mrs May's deal.
3. Even if a General Election were to flow from the VoNC, who lead the Conservative Party?
4. And even assume someone could be put in place who was suitably Brexity, how do you ensure that the Conservative MPs that are returned are in favour of your kind of deal?
5. And even if you can get that sorted, what happens if the election results in a Hung Parliament?
Your right we are well and truly screwed . Maybe emigration is the way forwards
Tonight is the night ERG have been reduced to a rump of bitter losers
No 23/6/17 was the night it happened. When May's incompetence ensured the saboteurs won and the Remainers had a majority in Parliament.
Don't expect this Parliament to have the last word though.
The anger in this country is rising , Parliament and MPs are seen as the blockers of brexit and out of touch with ordinary people . They want us to think again because they think we gave the wrong answer last time . They are destroying our democracy
On the contrary, our politicians are doing a marvelous job at representing the British public in all its contradictory and irreconcilable beliefs. Westminster has taken back control. Isn't that what the people wanted?
The people voted to leave . Remain lost . They have not enacted the people’s wishes . In a democracy the majority wins . Leave won . To subvert that vote is democratic betrayal . There will be riots on the streets if brexit is betrayed
Take a chill pill ! I’m a Remainer and just want an orderly exit and a deal . Blame the ERG nutjobs , you’d have had Brexit by now if it wasn’t for them .
My son works in network rail , solid labour voters . All the lads there are all saying they will never vote labour again for the way the party has betrayed brexit. I think northern labour MPs are doomed
Total rubbish. Labour will mop up in the council elections and probably win the North of Tyne city region mayoralty.
If last year's pattern holds, of the Conservatives doing well in leave areas, and poorly in Remain areas, that will limit Conservative losses, due to the nature of the seats being contested.
What a shame if Zac Goldsmith were to lose his seat. (Hopefully it could be mirrored by a win for the Blues in Don Valley.)
The best option now is for the tories to vonc TM either through rule change in the 22 or failing that collapse the government
And what does that do to help ?
Ushers in a better leader who will implement a decent brexit
So what is this 'decent brexit' and how would it be implemented ?
There was nothing particularly wrong with Mrs May's proposal. It would likely have been followed by a close, but sub-EEA, relationship between the UK and the EU.
Over time, the relationship would have gradually loosened, but the divorce would have been a relatively friendly one.
Comments
Actions have consequences I believe..
British people who migrate to other EU countries tend to be affluent than the areas they migrate to.
With immigrants to the UK from other EU countries the opposite is the usual case.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44798649
Those same nutjobs want No Deal with Fox and Grayling in charge of trade and transport.
First up - Ken Clarke will be organising a drunken brawl in Belgravia, in favour of a permanent Customs Union.
Be careful of the company you keep isam.
Suspect turnout will vary a lot in local elections. Strong remain and particularly leave areas might be up but Kippers probably won’t be contesting many seats. Stay at home party might have a landslide.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/theresa-may-and-jeremy-corbyn-both-want-to-frustrate-brexit/
The deadline existed to get the deal made, the deal is made. The British can leave whenever they want, with or without it. The EU don't particularly want them to leave, but they also don't want to stop them. The deadlines don't force anyone to decide anything, because everyone knows they can be extended.
So why have a deadline?
Aren't we talking about not jailing anyone with less than a 12 month sentence
Will be interesting to see whether that gets anywhere tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXaaR9YlqnE
The problem with the idea is twomany-fold:
1. Mrs May is still in a position to request an extension until a new Prime Minister is appointed by the Queen. She would, I'm sure, ask for a 12 or 18 month extension in that circumstance.
2. There is the very real possibility of a "government of National Unity" coming out of the Commons before a General Election. Such a government would implement a far softer Brexit than Mrs May's deal.
3. Even if a General Election were to flow from the VoNC, who lead the Conservative Party?
4. And even assume someone could be put in place who was suitably Brexity, how do you ensure that the Conservative MPs that are returned are in favour of your kind of deal?
5. And even if you can get that sorted, what happens if the election results in a Hung Parliament?
More a "when" than an "if" imo.
Is it a secret?
Over time, the relationship would have gradually loosened, but the divorce would have been a relatively friendly one.
Never heard him call anything a fucking disgrace before.