Since her constituency - in which I live - was strongly remain, you could argue that those statements cost her votes.
Besides, when the situation changes (and it sure as heck has changed), reasonable people can change their minds. We're nearly three years on from the referendum, and it's all a bit of a mess, isn't it?
You have my pity. Being represented by a liar like that cannot be something any reasonable person would be proud of.
As I have met her on a number of occasions Richard, I have to tell you, you are talking bollox. She strikes me as a highly principled person. You don't agree with her world view, fine, but she is no more a liar than anyone else. Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage she ain't
She either lied to get elected, or she won’t give her electorate the opportunity to ratify her change of party.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
So this isn’t a MV. What the hell is the point of that?
To show the EU that we're trying to avoid no deal, you know that thing leavers said was Project Fear but now say is nothing to be feared.
But she is going to lose. Again.
Everyone knew that was very likely. But given the EU gave us a date based on the WA being approved this week, it’s only reasonable to at least try. My assumption is it is purely about positioning so that people who were crowing about the CU and referendum options getting more votes in IV1 can be told than MV2.5 got more, for what that is worth.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
Since her constituency - in which I live - was strongly remain, you could argue that those statements cost her votes.
Besides, when the situation changes (and it sure as heck has changed), reasonable people can change their minds. We're nearly three years on from the referendum, and it's all a bit of a mess, isn't it?
You have my pity. Being represented by a liar like that cannot be something any reasonable person would be proud of.
As I have met her on a number of occasions Richard, I have to tell you, you are talking bollox. She strikes me as a highly principled person. You don't agree with her world view, fine, but she is no more a liar than anyone else. Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage she ain't
She either lied to get elected, or she won’t give her electorate the opportunity to ratify her change of party.
That is not principled.
I think risking one's political career rather than support a course of action that you believe will cause immense damage to the country, nay, has already caused immense damage to the country, sounds a bit more principled than the ERG who have just caved in and left their friends the DUP isolated.
Try and be principled yourself; admit you just don't like her because she is opposed to Brexit. Or do you prefer the comfort of faux outrage so beloved of supporters of the self-harm that is otherwise known as Brexit? The self righteous bellowing of "blasphemer" at anyone that does not share your isolationist utopian religion?
He seems to have a different view of what her words were than I recall them being reported as. As for giving up, while she should move on to another option I don’t see how he is someone who can reasonably say that - no matter how many times it is shown the ERG’s preferred option is not supported by a lot more than don’t support May, they still insist it is their way or the high way.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
I can only assume you were not paying attention when she said this then:
“We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.”
“I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.”
He seems to have a different view of what her words were than I recall them being reported as. As for giving up, while she should move on to another option I don’t see how he is someone who can reasonably say that - no matter how many times it is shown the ERG’s preferred option is not supported by a lot more than don’t support May, they still insist it is their way or the high way.
Or in short, STFU Steve Baker.
The ERG - particularly Steve Baker- are utter cretins. They had Brexit in their hands. They've blown it.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
I can only assume you were not paying attention when she said this then:
“We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.”
“I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.”
You are repeating yourself Richard. I refer you to my answer earlier. The quote from John Maynard Keynes one? Only a few minutes ago.
I think we have to have a GE now. An utterly deadlocked parliament, even if the EU offers us the mercy of a long extension, the current Govt cannot do anything with it with this Parliament.
However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with a similarly constituted House after that.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
`It's a bit of a mystery why she joined the Conservatives rather than the Lib Dems She agreed with the Conservatives about very little.
He seems to have a different view of what her words were than I recall them being reported as. As for giving up, while she should move on to another option I don’t see how he is someone who can reasonably say that - no matter how many times it is shown the ERG’s preferred option is not supported by a lot more than don’t support May, they still insist it is their way or the high way.
Or in short, STFU Steve Baker.
The ERG - particularly Steve Baker- are utter cretins. They had Brexit in their hands. They've blown it.
So staunch that they can't even vote for a Brexit that isn't Brexity enough.
The DUP at least have some iffy reasoning linked to the Irish border.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
I can only assume you were not paying attention when she said this then:
“We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.”
“I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.”
Yes, I was paying attention. And you have not been paying attention as the project that you have supported for decades to leave the EU has descended into farce.
The situation has changed. Reasonable people can change their minds. But Allen has not suddenly changed from a Europhobe into a remainer; she's always been a steadfast remainer. That's always been clear.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
I can only assume you were not paying attention when she said this then:
“We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.”
“I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.”
An election now would be about Brexit, whatever Corbyn would prefer. As long as May can gather 80% of the Leaver vote and some anti-Corbynites, she will get her majority.
How many ERGs are still holding out? Most seem to have folded.
ABout half I think.
Topic being discussed in the office - a few comments in support of May, surprisingly, mostly due to dislike of Boris it seems. Not really thinking about a GE yet, surprisingly.
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
`It's a bit of a mystery why she joined the Conservatives rather than the Lib Dems She agreed with the Conservatives about very little.
I actually disagree with that as well. She's Conservative (if a centrist one) on many issues: yes, she has been against the party on some home issues, but then you could say the same about Cameron pre-2005 when the party was rather to the right.
Like Soubry, her attitude to the EU is the biggest point of divergence from the party.
Hopefully for the sake of the country May will make a better fist of her second GE campaign.
That said, the macabre entertainment value in a Corbyn premiership would make a change from the daily ennui of Brexit. And he would then have to make some decisions!
Richard, I don't think you are familiar with the area she represents. It is one of the strongest remain areas in the country. With respect to those quotes, they are not necessarily lies. I think the benefit of the doubt and some respect is due to those that change their mind when the facts become clearer, and they become clearer by the day that Brexit is a fiasco. I am sure you know the quote from John Maynard Keynes.
I have little or no respect for MPs even at the best of times. But I certainly have no respect for MPs that lie openly to get themselves elected.
Richard, IMO you're out of order on this. Heaven forfend an MP follow the way her constituents voted in the referendum!
Not at all. It is not the fact that she is a devout Remainer that is the problem, it is the fact she lied about it repeatedly at the election to make sure she got elected. Ken Clarke has my great admiration even though he is a devout Remainer because he has always been honest about his position and made clear he opposed Brexit at the last election.
Not at all. She had made her personal views very clear wrt the referendum. I should know - I got the articles she wrote in our village paper! Now, I realise that you are an arch-leaver, but that doesn't make your comments about her correct.
`It's a bit of a mystery why she joined the Conservatives rather than the Lib Dems She agreed with the Conservatives about very little.
No, the Conservative Party joined UKIP en masse.
There were a few genuine Conservatives like Heidi left over from the selection processes from the days when a decent part of the party believed in sound government and a pro-business economy.
Comments
That is not principled.
Noes 344
RIP TMSD*
(*Theresa May's ...Suboptimal Deal)
Try and be principled yourself; admit you just don't like her because she is opposed to Brexit. Or do you prefer the comfort of faux outrage so beloved of supporters of the self-harm that is otherwise known as Brexit? The self righteous bellowing of "blasphemer" at anyone that does not share your isolationist utopian religion?
You can't ask for a much clearer hint than that!
Note that this gives Labour an even bigger incentive than they had before to continue with their wrecking tactics next Monday.
Or in short, STFU Steve Baker.
“We must respect the democratic outcome of the referendum and work positively together to ensure we make Brexit a success.”
“I was a remainer, but the EU ref result is final and cannot be rerun.”
However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with a similarly constituted House after that.
Then what?
Just seen the news. Pretty surprised, to be honest.
Leclerc topped first practice, as tipped by me, each way, at 13 (14 with boost). Nice turn of luck.
The DUP at least have some iffy reasoning linked to the Irish border.
The situation has changed. Reasonable people can change their minds. But Allen has not suddenly changed from a Europhobe into a remainer; she's always been a steadfast remainer. That's always been clear.
https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Divisions/Details/664
An election now would be about Brexit, whatever Corbyn would prefer. As long as May can gather 80% of the Leaver vote and some anti-Corbynites, she will get her majority.
Let’s get on with it.
So, closer than I thought.
Topic being discussed in the office - a few comments in support of May, surprisingly, mostly due to dislike of Boris it seems. Not really thinking about a GE yet, surprisingly.
They are ready for no deal and the WDA will not be opened
Like Soubry, her attitude to the EU is the biggest point of divergence from the party.
A GE is playing Russian Roulette with the Tory Party. By all means do it, but from a position of strength.
Frankly, that is not currently the case.
As much as Corbyn is unelectable, the public is particularly febrile at present.
That said, the macabre entertainment value in a Corbyn premiership would make a change from the daily ennui of Brexit. And he would then have to make some decisions!
There were a few genuine Conservatives like Heidi left over from the selection processes from the days when a decent part of the party believed in sound government and a pro-business economy.