Legally we do not vote for a Government. We vote for individual MPs who then collectively choose who will fbecome PM and form the Government. I may not agree with their aims but those backbenchers are perfectly entitled to over-rule the Government so long as they do not stray into the area of Royal Prerogative.
Are you saying EU created space potentially for MPs to elbow May aside and seek a longer delay, perhaps resulting in no Brexit?
I’m saying they categorically didn’t. The EU set this up in their own interest, pass their WA or clean brexit.
the elbow May aside bit. 🙃🙃🙃May is not alone in her stance. You are elbowing Gove, Leadsome, and all the people in the cabinet, government, party and the country who support either them or Boris and ERG too. That’s going to take memorably bloody bit of elbowing to prevent a Clean brexit.
WA or Clean brexit. Place money on anything else and you are throwing it away.
On the train to London. Not for the March but for a show my daughter is in. Very busy, not helped by the original train being cancelled. Lots of EU flags and support on display in the train and good natured.
I may have voted LEAVE but I’ve got to admit May has made a complete hash of the process.
I wish she’d resign, though that wouldn’t necessarily help with the LOTO even worse!
I hope they are letting you share their tofu and quinoa wraps. By the time they are on the train home this evening they will all have stocked up with Good Brie.
I guess those with Family Railcards will have taken Tarquin and Jemima along as a development opportunity.
Christ this culture war bollocks is tiresome. I went on the last march. Yes, it skewed middle class and white but I didn't see anyone eating quinoa or French cheese (oh the horror). There is a broad swathe of reasonable open minded people in this country who are sick to the back teeth of Brexit and all the damage it has done - chiefly so far the distraction from our real problems, such as the decimation of our public services. For what it's worth I hate quinoa and my kids haven't got wanky names. I am sure you have ten whippets and live exclusively on pies and your kids are all called Jaydon. You see, we can all do it and it's not big or clever. Oh and happy 15 years PB, you are a great news source.
You've got me all wrong - it's a diet of Gregg's steak bakes that keeps me going. Well actually there is a packet of quinoa in our kitchen cupboard, and I don't mind the odd bit of meat substitute on occasion.
I know I'm using a cliché to describe the marchers - well done to those attending for turning out for a cause they believe in. And thank goodness we live in a society where they can do so free from fear.
Isn't a Greggs steak bake basically a pie? Whatever you want to call it, I'm sure George Osborne thinks it's VATable. What did you think of the Greggs vegan sausage roll? What a time to be alive. Anyway, well done to the marchers. Alas dad duties trump Centrist Dad duties today so I am missing it.
I would grab this with both hands, but I’m not an ERG zealot or a revoking hypocrite.
I think the main problem with this us that EFTA membership and a Customs union with the EU are mutually exclusive. I am not sure but I think this is indeed another unicorn.
For various reasons, I think the parties will want to avoid the UK having its main relationship with the EU through the EEA. But a bespoke arrangement should be possible that includes the Single Market and customs union.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
I would grab this with both hands, but I’m not an ERG zealot or a revoking hypocrite.
I think the main problem with this us that EFTA membership and a Customs union with the EU are mutually exclusive. I am not sure but I think this is indeed another unicorn.
For various reasons, I think the parties will want to avoid the UK having its main relationship with the EU through the EEA. But a bespoke arrangement should be possible that includes the Single Market and customs union.
I have to say I think that sounds rather like the cherry picking the EU was dead set against. Particularly as I suspect any British PM negotiating that would still be saying no FoM.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
Will “fuck business” feature in its reinvigorated policies?
...and to Marf for enhancing it with her gentle wit. My favourite remains the one with the bankers appreciating taxpayer support during the financial crisis - one saying something like "I really do appreciate taxpayers, though I've never met any."
I would grab this with both hands, but I’m not an ERG zealot or a revoking hypocrite.
I think the main problem with this us that EFTA membership and a Customs union with the EU are mutually exclusive. I am not sure but I think this is indeed another unicorn.
For various reasons, I think the parties will want to avoid the UK having its main relationship with the EU through the EEA. But a bespoke arrangement should be possible that includes the Single Market and customs union.
I have to say I think that sounds rather like the cherry picking the EU was dead set against. Particularly as I suspect any British PM negotiating that would still be saying no FoM.
It's one of those declensions. You cherry pick. I have red lines.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
"After this mess is fixed"
Don't hold your breath. We have years of this ahead.
Happy birthday PB! Many thanks to OGH and son, and all the header writers who keep it going. Has been invaluable over the past few febrile years. Always informative, sometimes infuriating, occasionally eye-opening, never dull. Thanks to all the contributors too. The full gamut of insightful political opinions available, for the most part respectfully debated...
Congratulations on hitting 15 years. I've followed and posted here since sometime in 2004 (under previous IDs).
Back in 2004 I was a moderate (though solid) Conservative voter in my late 20s... over these 15 years I've transitioned (via becoming a floating voter) through to my present status as an active member of my local Liberal Democrat branch in my mid 40s. Although national events would have taken me on this political journey anyway; I don't hesitate to credit the discussions here with helping in some small way to refine and modify my outlook.
Are you literally me under another name? That's almost exactly my story as well (albeit my only previous ID was simply "Andy" when the site was much smaller)
LOL It's a funny world isn't it? I'm pretty sure I'm not you... though has anyone ever seen us both together in the same place?
There's still a 3% return in one week for £3000 and 2% for £27000 on Betfair Exchange, if you are certain that we won't be out of the EU next Friday (which appears to be legally guaranteed, though DYOR). I've staked my Betfair pot (all of £140, so I stand to win...uh...£4).
George O is VERY good on radio 4. When the history of Mrs May's many mistakes comes to be written her firing of him might come to be though of as her most egregious
Yep, he as good as suggested she isn't up to what lies ahead and should step down. Without being unnecessarily rude about it.
Meanwhile the petition (which he has signed) should achieve 4,000,000 very soon. Oddly the only previous petition that just passed four million also did so on the Saturday of an anti-Brexit demonstration, if a much smaller one.
The biggest petition ever was the one in June 2016, straight after the Leave vote, demanding an immediate re-run.
Sore losers then. Bitter losers now.
The one set up by Leavers in advance of the vote because they thought they were going to lose? That one?
Which just goes to further prove my point about how it’s about the ends not the means.
There’s no great stand for democracy here. The cynicism is extraordinary.
It does rather illustrate the double-standards on offer. Leavers love democracy and that's why they don't want another referendum and would have accepted the result if it went against them, while the democracy-hating Remainers signed a petition for another referendum.
A referendum set up by (democracy-loving) Leavers who thought they were going to lose and didn't want to accept the result if it went against them...
Then again, the people who are marching today would not be offering a second referendum if they had won the first, and nor would they be demanding one if Parliament simply revoked A50.
Very true. If, though, it HAD gone 52-48 the other way, and had the outcome been different to what had been promised (eg if Cameron's renegotiated deal had been resiled from) and there been a swing to Leave, I'd have personally supported another referendum. (I may be talking my own bias as a previous soft Leaver who swung to reluctant Remain in the campaign, though).
I certainly wouldn't see Leaver calls for another referendum in those circumstances as being undemocratic or revolting, as some Leavers seem to do.
Congratulations on hitting 15 years. I've followed and posted here since sometime in 2004 (under previous IDs).
Back in 2004 I was a moderate (though solid) Conservative voter in my late 20s... over these 15 years I've transitioned (via becoming a floating voter) through to my present status as an active member of my local Liberal Democrat branch in my mid 40s. Although national events would have taken me on this political journey anyway; I don't hesitate to credit the discussions here with helping in some small way to refine and modify my outlook.
Are you literally me under another name? That's almost exactly my story as well (albeit my only previous ID was simply "Andy" when the site was much smaller)
LOL It's a funny world isn't it? I'm pretty sure I'm not you... though has anyone ever seen us both together in the same place?
Years ago, when at work an extremely odd junior member of staff picked the same password as I did; wizardofoz, or something like that and logged into my account. The lady who ran the IT system was worried about the security breach, and even more worried about me.
I dare not wonder on how many hours I’ve spent on PB since I first discovered PB back in 2005.
I suspect my degree classification may have been different if PB didn’t exist.
Anyway, many thanks to @MikeSmithson - you have created something wonderful, especially when one considers how political ‘debate’ operates elsewhere on the Internet. Thanks also to @TheScreamingEagles , @rcs1000 and the other moderators/administrators. Finally, thanks to @Cyclefree , @AlastairMeeks , @Sean_Fear and the many other article contributors.
For fellow PBers on the march today, while I profoundly disagree with the policy, I hope you all have an enjoyable and safe time and that the rain stays away.
...and to Marf for enhancing it with her gentle wit. My favourite remains the one with the bankers appreciating taxpayer support during the financial crisis - one saying something like "I really do appreciate taxpayers, though I've never met any."
The ‘losers’ are going to be all of us if a no deal Brexit happens.
Well get your MP to vote for the WA.
No thanks mate. Revoke all the way. Only way to end this thing.
The one thing that revoke is guaranteed not to do is “end this thing”!
The nutters would continue to bang on (as they will just as unhappily if we leave) but they won't get a hearing from ordinary people after this shitshow.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
Legally we do not vote for a Government. We vote for individual MPs who then collectively choose who will fbecome PM and form the Government. I may not agree with their aims but those backbenchers are perfectly entitled to over-rule the Government so long as they do not stray into the area of Royal Prerogative.
Though isn't what the ERG wants to do - backbenchers overturning an 'elected' government - the same thing as what Baker is complaining about.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
It depends what you most value as a Conservative. On the one hand, tradition, sovereignty and independence. On the other, the free movement of capital, people and goods. At present, a very large majority of Conservatives favour the former over the latter.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
Will “fuck business” feature in its reinvigorated policies?
I suspect tax dodging law breaking multinational businesses have a similar level of public admiration as our politicians currently do.
The ‘losers’ are going to be all of us if a no deal Brexit happens.
Well get your MP to vote for the WA.
No thanks mate. Revoke all the way. Only way to end this thing.
The one thing that revoke is guaranteed not to do is “end this thing”!
The nutters would continue to bang on (as they will just as unhappily if we leave) but they won't get a hearing from ordinary people after this shitshow.
Millions of ordinary people want Brexit. They are not going to change their minds if it gets revoked.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
That’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative.
The ‘losers’ are going to be all of us if a no deal Brexit happens.
Well get your MP to vote for the WA.
No thanks mate. Revoke all the way. Only way to end this thing.
The one thing that revoke is guaranteed not to do is “end this thing”!
The nutters would continue to bang on (as they will just as unhappily if we leave) but they won't get a hearing from ordinary people after this shitshow.
Millions of ordinary people want Brexit. They are not going to change their minds if it gets revoked.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
Will “fuck business” feature in its reinvigorated policies?
I suspect tax dodging law breaking multinational businesses have a similar level of public admiration as our politicians currently do.
It's odd that people who decry the Conservatives as mercenary bastards who know the price of everything and the value of nothing then decry them for not championing big corporations.
Legally we do not vote for a Government. We vote for individual MPs who then collectively choose who will fbecome PM and form the Government. I may not agree with their aims but those backbenchers are perfectly entitled to over-rule the Government so long as they do not stray into the area of Royal Prerogative.
Though isn't what the ERG wants to do - backbenchers overturning an 'elected' government - the same thing as what Baker is complaining about.
Indeed. There is the stench of hypocrisy about his complaints.
The ‘losers’ are going to be all of us if a no deal Brexit happens.
Well get your MP to vote for the WA.
No thanks mate. Revoke all the way. Only way to end this thing.
The one thing that revoke is guaranteed not to do is “end this thing”!
The nutters would continue to bang on (as they will just as unhappily if we leave) but they won't get a hearing from ordinary people after this shitshow.
Millions of ordinary people want Brexit. They are not going to change their minds if it gets revoked.
The ‘losers’ are going to be all of us if a no deal Brexit happens.
Well get your MP to vote for the WA.
No thanks mate. Revoke all the way. Only way to end this thing.
The one thing that revoke is guaranteed not to do is “end this thing”!
The nutters would continue to bang on (as they will just as unhappily if we leave) but they won't get a hearing from ordinary people after this shitshow.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
That’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative.
Just a quick note to say congratulations, Mike, and thanks for facilitating this extraordinary resource for everyone who is (or in my case, was) interested in British politics. I was in the second wave of regular communicants, and I can't believe it was 15 years ago when Book Value, Tabman Steve and the others started to discover how to use this site, which was then the most sociable of all the social media - and may still be for all I know. I still remember the most valuable lesson that this site had to impart - never, ever, bet on something (such as an appointment to or dismissal from the Cabinet) that relies on the decision of one person - you will never have all the information to know why the decision will be made.
There have been a few recent polls showing support for Leave and No Deal improving, I suspect that the behaviour of Parliament over recent weeks is causing some sheep to return to the fold.
I have listened to you. I have slept on it. But nothing has changed.
I’m still convinced I’m right. There’s only two options available to Parliament, pass the WA or it’s Clean brexit. Clean brexit isn’t engineered by anybody from here. IT ALREADY HAS BEEN. It’s whether it can be stopped.
Firstly, yes, may be support in parliament for a form of vassalage that could win a majority of votes. But it could never be put to the people for their endorsement as it would fall apart as the vassalage it is in the first week of that ref campaign and soundly defeated by the people. Secondly times up, A50 was used to negotiate a deal based on red lines not of parliaments choosing but of the Conservative party and its supporters in this country at this time. The A50 time is now gone and it only produced one withdraw agreement. Thirdly, the indicative vote trash everyone getting distracted by is meaningless unless EU choose to run with the outcome. And the explicit signal from the EU is they are keen on the current WA and failing that, just like the PM, not apparently bothered by clean brexit.
You could make out EU, and May and her cabinet, are lot more keen to avoid Clean Brexit than they are letting on, but if you are convinced of that then you are dangerous.
So Clean Break is still on the table and more potent than ever if people carry on thinking it isn’t.
I see "Clean Break" is being used as a euphemism for no deal breaxit, which is laughable because the one thing it won't be is clean.
But my main point is, if the EU really is prepared for a no-deal exit, why on earth did they allow this extension? It makes no sense at all. There was sitll one week to go to allow MV3 and then it really would have been squeaky-bum time.
THroughout the last 3 years too many people have been claiming that they know what the EU wants to do, and most of it was absolut b*****s
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
If Caroline Flint had been Labour leader in 2015 instead of a different Doncaster MP then Labour would have won.
Possibly.
But with regard to her tweet, she was a Cabinet minister. Why did she do nothing on all these reforms that are needed? She had "real power and influence" for years.
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
Indeed. Take out the DKs, and Revoke is already in the low 40s. Given that a fair chunk of those wanting a new deal and later exit will be supporting a soft Brexit, that's where the consensus is right now.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
Will “fuck business” feature in its reinvigorated policies?
I suspect tax dodging law breaking multinational businesses have a similar level of public admiration as our politicians currently do.
Other types of businesses are available. Mine for example, but I’m still getting fucked over by the risibly soi-disant party of free enterprise.
Far too many old friends on PB to attempt to list them here, as one is sure to forget a good few, but also a time to remember those who have sadly passed on over the past 15 years. For me at least, PB.com's Halcyon years were between 2004 - 2010 when the site was good to its name in terms of the betting side of politics, featuring as it then did several brilliant tipsters, a feature which more recently has been all but lost.
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
IT certainly is for me. Was prepared to accept Mays deal and move on, even though it is distinctly sub-optimal. However, it is apparent many Leavers don't want it, and, what is more, will do all in their power to thwart it. Given there is, therefore no majority, even amongst Leavers, for this somewhat minor stage of the process, what hope is there for any future relationship/trade agreement? Therefore, I may as well go back to opposing the Deal, on the grounds that Leaving is, and always was, a damn foolish idea.
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
Indeed. Take out the DKs, and Revoke is already in the low 40s. Given that a fair chunk of those wanting a new deal and later exit will be supporting a soft Brexit, that's where the consensus is right now.
I’m deeply uncomfortable with revoke and am a staunch Remainer so perhaps I’m less staunch than I first thought !
I would support a second EU vote but at this point I couldn’t support just revoking Article 50 .
Doesn't work like that. You can construct apparent majorities for all kinds of things if you offer a variety of options and then add them up vs a single alternative. Would you vote Labour under Corbyn? Under Blair? Under David Miliband? Under the ghost of Mother Theresa? Or would you vote Tory? Add the first four together and you get a totally spurious Labour majority.
Incidentally, I see David M has just firmly ruled out leaving Labour.
If Caroline Flint had been Labour leader in 2015 instead of a different Doncaster MP then Labour would have won.
Possibly.
But with regard to her tweet, she was a Cabinet minister. Why did she do nothing on all these reforms that are needed? She had "real power and influence" for years.
Didn't she say that she was treated like window dressing? It does sound about right that the awfully clever people would completely ignore any warnings from working class MPs.
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
Indeed. Take out the DKs, and Revoke is already in the low 40s. Given that a fair chunk of those wanting a new deal and later exit will be supporting a soft Brexit, that's where the consensus is right now.
I’m deeply uncomfortable with revoke and am a staunch Remainer so perhaps I’m less staunch than I first thought !
I would support a second EU vote but at this point I couldn’t support just revoking Article 50 .
Parliament needs to coalesce around whatever Brexit is both achievable and supportable. Then give people the choice between that specific proposition and staying where we are.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
Will “fuck business” feature in its reinvigorated policies?
I suspect tax dodging law breaking multinational businesses have a similar level of public admiration as our politicians currently do.
Other types of businesses are available. Mine for example, but I’m still getting fucked over by the risibly soi-disant party of free enterprise.
Well this government certainly likes to add more regulations.
But you'll struggle to find a government which doesn't.
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
That’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative.
“Reform that ye may preserve” is the watchword
Walking out is not reform.
It is for this country
We’ve tried to reform the EU but our partners want something different to us. Good luck to them and I hope it works out, but it’s not for us.
But only 24% support no deal. So there’s no mandate for a no deal . And the ERG telling everyone Leavers voted for no deal in 2016 is just another lie being peddled by them.
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
Indeed. Take out the DKs, and Revoke is already in the low 40s. Given that a fair chunk of those wanting a new deal and later exit will be supporting a soft Brexit, that's where the consensus is right now.
I’m deeply uncomfortable with revoke and am a staunch Remainer so perhaps I’m less staunch than I first thought !
I would support a second EU vote but at this point I couldn’t support just revoking Article 50 .
Parliament needs to coalesce around whatever Brexit is both achievable and supportable. Then give people the choice between that specific proposition and staying where we are.
Yes that seems sensible so probably won’t happen !
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
That’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative.
“Reform that ye may preserve” is the watchword
Walking out is not reform.
It is for this country
We’ve tried to reform the EU but our partners want something different to us. Good luck to them and I hope it works out, but it’s not for us.
The question is where would the people who want to leave with a deal (either May's deal or another deal) go if forced to choose between Remain/Revoke and No Deal...
After this mess is fixed, we need to reinvigorate the Conservative Party. It needs to be a party which is in tune with the the Conservative instincts of the backbone of this great Country, not runs scared of the liberal elites in the establishment.(who cocked up Brexit when they should have played hard ball). And, as is already the case, be a party that is is firmly rooted in the domestic agenda to improve people's lives.
The problem is that Brexit isn't actually conservative. Despite what so many party members think.
That’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative.
“Reform that ye may preserve” is the watchword
Walking out is not reform.
It is for this country
We’ve tried to reform the EU but our partners want something different to us. Good luck to them and I hope it works out, but it’s not for us.
I would grab this with both hands, but I’m not an ERG zealot or a revoking hypocrite.
I think the main problem with this us that EFTA membership and a Customs union with the EU are mutually exclusive. I am not sure but I think this is indeed another unicorn.
Customs Union is required for the backstop, once solution agreed for NI no backstop needed.
The Commons is likeliest to vote for permanent Customs Union above all though over No Deal, Deal, revoke, EUref2, even Norway Plus
The Commons can vote for what they like - and I wish they would.- but that doesn't necessarily mean it is possible within the rules of the various organisations. A permanent Customs Union is, I believe, mutually exclusive with EFTA membership.
Then we stay in the single market and Customs Union anyway and do not apply to join EFTA until a solution has finally been agreed on the Irish border
Comments
Article 50 has been extended, by us and the EU.
The extension has 2 fixed dates on it, dependent on the outcome of MV3. Until we have MV3 (or not) the SI can't amend the date...
But whatever happens, we can't lave on the 29th.
Would be nice to see Tim pop in today - an absolute masterclass poster - if just to say hello.
Legally we do not vote for a Government. We vote for individual MPs who then collectively choose who will fbecome PM and form the Government. I may not agree with their aims but those backbenchers are perfectly entitled to over-rule the Government so long as they do not stray into the area of Royal Prerogative.
I’m saying they categorically didn’t. The EU set this up in their own interest, pass their WA or clean brexit.
the elbow May aside bit. 🙃🙃🙃May is not alone in her stance. You are elbowing Gove, Leadsome, and all the people in the cabinet, government, party and the country who support either them or Boris and ERG too. That’s going to take memorably bloody bit of elbowing to prevent a Clean brexit.
WA or Clean brexit. Place money on anything else and you are throwing it away.
https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/status/1109343603959173121
If the Cabinet and PCP decided they wanted her out a way would be found...
I'm on the train from suburbia to central London, about three or four people's march types. Fewer than last time, but it's early I guess.
https://news.sky.com/story/barbra-streisand-michael-jacksons-alleged-victims-thrilled-to-be-at-neverland-11673163
Don't hold your breath. We have years of this ahead.
Has been invaluable over the past few febrile years. Always informative, sometimes infuriating, occasionally eye-opening, never dull.
Thanks to all the contributors too. The full gamut of insightful political opinions available, for the most part respectfully debated...
I dare not wonder on how many hours I’ve spent on PB since I first discovered PB back in 2005.
If, though, it HAD gone 52-48 the other way, and had the outcome been different to what had been promised (eg if Cameron's renegotiated deal had been resiled from) and there been a swing to Leave, I'd have personally supported another referendum.
(I may be talking my own bias as a previous soft Leaver who swung to reluctant Remain in the campaign, though).
I certainly wouldn't see Leaver calls for another referendum in those circumstances as being undemocratic or revolting, as some Leavers seem to do.
https://sdp.org.uk/new-declaration/
Anyway, many thanks to @MikeSmithson - you have created something wonderful, especially when one considers how political ‘debate’ operates elsewhere on the Internet. Thanks also to @TheScreamingEagles , @rcs1000 and the other moderators/administrators. Finally, thanks to @Cyclefree , @AlastairMeeks , @Sean_Fear and the many other article contributors.
For fellow PBers on the march today, while I profoundly disagree with the policy, I hope you all have an enjoyable and safe time and that the rain stays away.
especially since it is hanging on my wall
The FTA will attract much less attention.
The autumn GE is going to be fun though
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
“Reform that ye may preserve” is the watchword
Classy
But my main point is, if the EU really is prepared for a no-deal exit, why on earth did they allow this extension? It makes no sense at all. There was sitll one week to go to allow MV3 and then it really would have been squeaky-bum time.
THroughout the last 3 years too many people have been claiming that they know what the EU wants to do, and most of it was absolut b*****s
The ERG stance is making things worse and is driving Remainers who were willing to accept and move on into the either just revoke or another EU vote .
But with regard to her tweet, she was a Cabinet minister. Why did she do nothing on all these reforms that are needed? She had "real power and influence" for years.
For me at least, PB.com's Halcyon years were between 2004 - 2010 when the site was good to its name in terms of the betting side of politics, featuring as it then did several brilliant tipsters, a feature which more recently has been all but lost.
Therefore, I may as well go back to opposing the Deal, on the grounds that Leaving is, and always was, a damn foolish idea.
I would support a second EU vote but at this point I couldn’t support just revoking Article 50 .
Incidentally, I see David M has just firmly ruled out leaving Labour.
Leave 50% abandon 35% don’t know 15%
But you'll struggle to find a government which doesn't.
We’ve tried to reform the EU but our partners want something different to us. Good luck to them and I hope it works out, but it’s not for us.
9-12 months after we leave people will be talking about something else