Does anyone actually think May will bring her proposal for a vote on Monday? If it is a do or die situation those who have held their bladders until now won't wet themselves Sunday night and suddenly decide they need to back the deal. She'll pull it, which will only embolden the no dealer holdouts further - she'll be losing their votes as they see the chances of stopping Brexit receding, without gaining any further votes.
As much as I'd wish for this to be over with end of next week, I see Parliament finally having had enough of May.
And then what
Even more chaos, probably resulting in no deal.
Wishing the deal through won't work. No dealers will lose incentive to vote for it every day. Where are the 75 votes she needs (assuming no switchers) coming from?
Why are we getting excited about 60,000 signatures on that?
I could see that easily it topping a million soon from those who hitherto supported a 2nd referendum.
70,000 now....
So what?
Unless the number gets huge I don't think it matters one iota, but it is fun watching you get exasperated by it. It is the People's Vote march all over again. I assume you are not going to challenge the numbers though on this are you?
I’m not exasperated I just think it’s irrelevant.
I certainly will challenge the numbers on the March if I think they’re called out incorrectly, which they almost certainly will be.
Remember: it was 270k marchers last time, not 700k.
Taking the bait eh. Only you thought it was 270K.
Nope. That was in line with all the professional estimates, including neutral posters on here.
Go on give us a link to 270K that wasn't posted by you.
They say 25000, but I assume they missed a zero off. So 250 000. Estimate of 1000 attending rival pro-credit march, which presumably also was missing a zero.
He wants to find reasons to shoot down any lower estimate of numbers.
He isn’t interested in facts.
I don't give a toss what the number are. I'm just winding you up. You really don't get it do you? Do my comments and other like 'Don't feed the troll CS' ring any bells with you at all? Do you not see you are being selective? Comments like 'He isn't interested in fact' just show how you are deluding yourself when you get into some arguments when there are so many estimates that disagree with yours. They may be wrong, but you shouldn't just believe the ones you want to believe and dismiss others.
Oh dear, someone needs their evening hot bath and mug of Horlicks badly tonight.
Instead of using a message of let’s unite together , the deal is a compromise and not laying into MPs , understanding that people have different views she instead tried to absolve herself of any responsibility.
Utterly vile woman who is not fit to be PM.
You may think she’s poor, out of her depth and the like. That would be justified. Calling her vile just marks you out as a verminous excuse for a human being.
I stand by my comments she is a vile soulless woman without a shred of humanity or empathy . She feigns concern, her vindictive Home Office policies and her disgusting queue jumper comments aimed at fellow Europeans shows the real woman .
I am, ahem, no fan of Mrs May but I can understand why she snapped. It’s not the action of a prime minister but if the whole world is against you at some point you must just think go fuck yourselves.
Some rather nasty and unpleasant comments on here tonight.
FWIW my decidedly apolitical wife has just, in amongst feeding the baby, watched her statement on the nine o’clock news.
She expressed her anger at the faffing of the MPs, her admiration of Theresa May's tenacity and poured scorn on those who constantly criticise her who couldn’t begin to do her job, or even a small part of it.
I have just watched Theresa May's speech , and - to be honest - did not think it was so awful. From comments made here, I was expecting it to be a good deal worse than that.
Well it’s her deal or no deal all other options are off. Which probably means no deal
You think the house will vote for no deal in such forced choice? Really? Seriously? No deal won’t even get 200votes May will get 400 in such a forced choice.
everyone gone mad?
Game over. May wins.
MPs will never ever believe that is the only choice. Something will come up, they'll vote of no confidence, suspend standing orders and overrule, etc etc. Many of these ideas are tricky or downright implausible, but if we judge actions and not words, MPs are not guaranteed to be willing to take any action to definitely prevent no deal. Have the DUP come on board with the deal yet? Have 30+ Labour MPs?
They'll either succeed in forcing an extension, and on to no Brexit, or have no deal. And MPs have demonstrated that is a price they are willing to pay, for us to pay.
Which is why "as early as Monday" is smokescreen for gullible MPs. MV3 is Brexit Eve.
The bad blood means May resigns straight after.
She really is risking not making it that far... Was this strategy agreed in Cabinet? It is being reported she met with ERG before that statement. Who is driving?
Cooper/Letwin needs some Parliamentary time during which MPs can 'take control' and get something passed. Given the opposition and scope for procedural tricks, May is probably safe if she can spin the MV3 out until Wednesday.
Really the only way out is to VONC the government on Monday, requiring a very brave leap by the Tory remainers, creating some sort of one-job government to at least get a longer extension sorted next week. I can't see MPs having the courage or co-ordination to get this done.
Well it’s her deal or no deal all other options are off. Which probably means no deal
Letwin/Cooper or similar will be moved as an amendment and will carry. May breaking her word after the last time will ensure that.
Edit/ hence May won't take a vote on Monday. Brexit Eve, is when it'll be
I think May is determined to deliver brexit whether it’s her deal or no deal . She has played this right , because she is thinking about the damage to democracy and her party if they don’t deliver brexit. I don’t think her deal will pass so we default to no deal which I now believe she will allow to happen as the alternative is the destruction of the tories and faith in democracy . She will not countenance revoke or euref2. So she has prepared the ground with the public tonight , if her deal fails she can blame an indecisive parliament for it . Though once we are over the line of leaving I think she will step down or be forced to
If she has numbers to support her deal she doesn't need to do anything to get past it, she would have the votes to suspend standing orders to just do it again. Of course, she doesn't have the numbers for that or she'd have done it already.
It baffles me how a Cabinet Minister can say such a thing and not resign. What exactly do they think they are achieving remaining in the Cabinet of someone pursuing a course of action they think is so doomed to failure.
Instead of using a message of let’s unite together , the deal is a compromise and not laying into MPs , understanding that people have different views she instead tried to absolve herself of any responsibility.
Utterly vile woman who is not fit to be PM.
You may think she’s poor, out of her depth and the like. That would be justified. Calling her vile just marks you out as a verminous excuse for a human being.
I stand by my comments she is a vile soulless woman without a shred of humanity or empathy . She feigns concern, her vindictive Home Office policies and her disgusting queue jumper comments aimed at fellow Europeans shows the real woman .
'without a shred of humanity'? She's an awful PM, but that sort of opinion reflects far more on you than her.
I have just watched Theresa May's speech , and - to be honest - did not think it was so awful. From comments made here, I was expecting it to be a good deal worse than that.
It was fine. If it was the people who were voting on MV3.
Listening to the speech again why ask for an extension in the first place?
If there is a vote next week and it passes then she could ask for the technical extension then, surely. Or is the point of the request now only for a technical extension?
The sequencing was clever as the EU have laid the conditions down for an extension to 30th June and that condition is TM's deal passes. They have helped her greatly but there is an argument whether this whole thing has been choreographed between London and the EU.
Many doubt that TM has the machiavellian skill set to do it and we will have to wait for the publication of books in due course
The one thing it has created is a stampede of panic by remainers who see a real prospect of their dream failing
Threats from the EU are hardly likely to encourage Brexiteers to support Mays deal. And the idea that the EU are in the business of helping the woman who they distrust and despise is far fetched.
As for the books, May will never write her memoirs (just as Cameron will never finish his). Who wants to revisit a career which ended in unmitigated and self-inflicted disaster.
Possibly the change in implantation date is sufficient to rule that it is a different proposal.
I'm not sure changing the date on it would make it a *substantial* change. The additional documents May asked for in the A50 extension letter might on the basis MV2 was considered different enough, but who knows if there is anything remotely meaningful in them.
I am, ahem, no fan of Mrs May but I can understand why she snapped. It’s not the action of a prime minister but if the whole world is against you at some point you must just think go fuck yourselves.
True, but it does make his comment hypocritical because MPs have had chances to take more control, and have options to stop May, but have chosen not to, but he is ignoring that.
The BBC headline seems rather divorced from the opinion on here:
"Theresa May has appealed to the public over Brexit, telling them she understood they had had enough, and adding: "I am on your side."
Speaking from Downing Street, the prime minister criticised the actions of MPs, saying it was "high time" politicians made a decision on the next steps."
That's just reporting what happened, there's nothing there to contradict the opinion here that it was a pointless thing to say given it is MPs she needs.
Yes, but that's all most people will see.
Besides, it's frequently case that the reaction becomes the story. That hasn't happened so far.
Possibly the change in implantation date is sufficient to rule that it is a different proposal.
I'm not sure changing the date on it would make it a *substantial* change. The additional documents May asked for in the A50 extension letter might on the basis MV2 was considered different enough, but who knows if there is anything remotely meaningful in them.
Given it is entirely up to Bercow it doesn't matter whether it would be a substantial change, it matters whether it is so substantial that even he would not dare to claim it was not.
Unless the number gets huge I don't think it matters one iota, but it is fun watching you get exasperated by it. It is the People's Vote march all over again. I assume you are not going to challenge the numbers though on this are you?
I’m not exasperated I just think it’s irrelevant.
I certainly will challenge the numbers on the March if I think they’re called out incorrectly, which they almost certainly will be.
Remember: it was 270k marchers last time, not 700k.
Taking the bait eh. Only you thought it was 270K.
Nope. That was in line with all the professional estimates, including neutral posters on here.
Go on give us a link to 270K that wasn't posted by you.
They say 25000, but I assume they missed a zero off. So 250 000. Estimate of 1000 attending rival pro-credit march, which presumably also was missing a zero.
He wants to find reasons to shoot down any lower estimate of numbers.
He isn’t interested in facts.
I don't give a toss what the number are. I'm just winding you up. You really don't get it do you? Do my comments and other like 'Don't feed the troll CS' ring any bells with you at all? Do you not see you are being selective? Comments like 'He isn't interested in fact' just show how you are deluding yourself when you get into some arguments when there are so many estimates that disagree with yours. They may be wrong, but you shouldn't just believe the ones you want to believe and dismiss others.
Oh dear, someone needs their evening hot bath and mug of Horlicks badly tonight.
I tried to be helpful in my other post about how you come across with this stuff. That reply like the last just ignored the contents of my post altogether and was just bizarre.
The BBC headline seems rather divorced from the opinion on here:
"Theresa May has appealed to the public over Brexit, telling them she understood they had had enough, and adding: "I am on your side."
Speaking from Downing Street, the prime minister criticised the actions of MPs, saying it was "high time" politicians made a decision on the next steps."
That's just reporting what happened, there's nothing there to contradict the opinion here that it was a pointless thing to say given it is MPs she needs.
Yes, but that's all most people will see.
Yes, but the public are irrelevant to the matter at hand. If MPs were to reject MV3, would the public who saw that statement about it being time to take a decision be angry about that? No. And May presumably knows that and won't bring her vote on Monday.
Today it was confirmed I don't have stomach cancer and yet the events in Westminster make me really sad.
Well done Theresa and Parliament.
Congrats on the good news. If you have an issue, I hope they now know what it is and can treat accordingly.
(A friend is going through something atm where they can tell him what it isn't, but not what it is - which is making the treatment rather hit-and-miss.)
Possibly the change in implantation date is sufficient to rule that it is a different proposal.
I'm not sure changing the date on it would make it a *substantial* change. The additional documents May asked for in the A50 extension letter might on the basis MV2 was considered different enough, but who knows if there is anything remotely meaningful in them.
Given it is entirely up to Bercow it doesn't matter whether it would be a substantial change, it matters whether it is so substantial that even he would not dare to claim it was not.
And it needs to be a different proposition. The date is quite fundamental, and leaving in June is different from leaving in March, especially as there will need to be some tweaks to the deal to accommodate the new timetable. I don't see how Bercow could refuse, especially given the other Erskine May criterion of facilitating the government's business.
He's banging on about another referendum yet doesn't want to implement the last one. If Corbyn wins the next election, do we need a confirmatory vote for his hard left agenda ?
The BBC headline seems rather divorced from the opinion on here:
"Theresa May has appealed to the public over Brexit, telling them she understood they had had enough, and adding: "I am on your side."
Speaking from Downing Street, the prime minister criticised the actions of MPs, saying it was "high time" politicians made a decision on the next steps."
That's just reporting what happened, there's nothing there to contradict the opinion here that it was a pointless thing to say given it is MPs she needs.
Yes, but that's all most people will see.
Yes, but the public are irrelevant to the matter at hand. If MPs were to reject MV3, would the public who saw that statement about it being time to take a decision be angry about that? No. And May presumably knows that and won't bring her vote on Monday.
"Yes, but the public are irrelevant to the matter at hand."
Possibly the change in implantation date is sufficient to rule that it is a different proposal.
I'm not sure changing the date on it would make it a *substantial* change. The additional documents May asked for in the A50 extension letter might on the basis MV2 was considered different enough, but who knows if there is anything remotely meaningful in them.
Given it is entirely up to Bercow it doesn't matter whether it would be a substantial change, it matters whether it is so substantial that even he would not dare to claim it was not.
And it needs to be a different proposition. The date is quite fundamental, and leaving in June is different from leaving in March, especially as there will need to be some tweaks to the deal to accommodate the new timetable. I don't see how Bercow could refuse, especially given the other Erskine May criterion of facilitating the government's business.
We know he only cares about Erskine May when it suits him, he would refuse it without shame if he thought it would aid his political cause. So would it aid his cause to say no? Given how implausible it seems that MV3 will pass - no dealer support is surely flagging, some like Clarke were already iffy on backing it again as well - probably not, so he should say yes.
I think Theresa May imagines herself doing something like Trump with these speeches. It's clear populism in that she's publicly going over the heads of MP's to her core vote, like Trump ; and like Trump she uses that to recharge and reassure both herself and them. Also like Trump, it seeks to intimidate any people in the way, and using the relationship she perceives between her and them to do that - MP's, Congressmen, Washington , "Westminster". So, as mentioned earlier, any depth of content doesn't matter much.
Unfortunately for her, as with Trump and his wall, she needs the goodwill of lawmakers to get her vision through - and in her case, she needs MP's much more desperately, to stop her career crashing down around her at any time soon.
The BBC headline seems rather divorced from the opinion on here:
"Theresa May has appealed to the public over Brexit, telling them she understood they had had enough, and adding: "I am on your side."
Speaking from Downing Street, the prime minister criticised the actions of MPs, saying it was "high time" politicians made a decision on the next steps."
That's just reporting what happened, there's nothing there to contradict the opinion here that it was a pointless thing to say given it is MPs she needs.
Yes, but that's all most people will see.
Yes, but the public are irrelevant to the matter at hand. If MPs were to reject MV3, would the public who saw that statement about it being time to take a decision be angry about that? No. And May presumably knows that and won't bring her vote on Monday.
"Yes, but the public are irrelevant to the matter at hand."
Enough said,
Until such time as MPs decide to involve us again it is true!
It gets quite hard to follow in all the fog, but wasn't there recent polling that suggests her deal is actually unpopular with the public?
It's been trashed by remainers and leavers for 6 months, I'm surprised it has had as much support as it has. But yes, it's unpopular. However, in fairness, much opposition to it will be because people want other things, not all of which are viable in the manner people may think.
Today it was confirmed I don't have stomach cancer and yet the events in Westminster make me really sad.
Well done Theresa and Parliament.
It's an amazing feeling, isn't it? I had all the symptoms , had the two week urgent referral, had a cameras inserted both ends (not the same camera!) and then found out I had a moderately serious hiatus hernia and probable irritable bowel syndrome. Doctor told me to cut out my 3 main food groups-Alcohol, caffeine and chocolate. The wagon often hits a bumpy patch...
I have just watched Theresa May's speech , and - to be honest - did not think it was so awful. From comments made here, I was expecting it to be a good deal worse than that.
It was fine. If it was the people who were voting on MV3.
Possibly the change in implantation date is sufficient to rule that it is a different proposal.
I'm not sure changing the date on it would make it a *substantial* change. The additional documents May asked for in the A50 extension letter might on the basis MV2 was considered different enough, but who knows if there is anything remotely meaningful in them.
Given it is entirely up to Bercow it doesn't matter whether it would be a substantial change, it matters whether it is so substantial that even he would not dare to claim it was not.
True. If it's critically important we vote on the deal then it's critically important we vote on the deal, lets not arse around trying to pretend changing the date on it makes it any different.
Today it was confirmed I don't have stomach cancer and yet the events in Westminster make me really sad.
Well done Theresa and Parliament.
It's an amazing feeling, isn't it? I had all the symptoms , had the two week urgent referral, had cameras inserted both ends and then found out I had a moderately serious hiatus hernia and probable irritable bowel syndrome. Doctor told me to cut out my 3 main food groups-Alcohol, caffeine and chocolate. The wagon often hits a bumpy patch...
Well it’s her deal or no deal all other options are off. Which probably means no deal
Letwin/Cooper or similar will be moved as an amendment and will carry. May breaking her word after the last time will ensure that.
Edit/ hence May won't take a vote on Monday. Brexit Eve, is when it'll be
I think May is determined to deliver brexit whether it’s her deal or no deal . She has played this right , because she is thinking about the damage to democracy and her party if they don’t deliver brexit. I don’t think her deal will pass so we default to no deal which I now believe she will allow to happen as the alternative is the destruction of the tories and faith in democracy . She will not countenance revoke or euref2. So she has prepared the ground with the public tonight , if her deal fails she can blame an indecisive parliament for it . Though once we are over the line of leaving I think she will step down or be forced to
She's living on a prayer that she'll get the deal through, regarding an extension it doesn't make a difference if we make it or not. In her cabinet she thinks that we've got each other to stick to a line and that's a lot, so on to another meaningful vote we'll give it a shot.
Does anyone actually think May will bring her proposal for a vote on Monday? If it is a do or die situation those who have held their bladders until now won't wet themselves Sunday night and suddenly decide they need to back the deal. She'll pull it, which will only embolden the no dealer holdouts further - she'll be losing their votes as they see the chances of stopping Brexit receding, without gaining any further votes.
As much as I'd wish for this to be over with end of next week, I see Parliament finally having had enough of May.
Monday Letwin and Cooper will try and force through another amendment along with Boles, it is possible the Commons could amend the political declaration to aim for a Single Market and Customs Union BINO end point and then vote through the Withdrawal Agreement on that basis
If May loses MV3 surely she *has* to go at that point, regardless of whether it's no deal or a long extension.
VONC her tommorow while she is in Brussels.
VONC = No deal Brexit, I reckon.
This is going down to the wire . If she delays the vote until next Thursday if it falls we no deal brexit on Friday. That should concentrate minds . TSE good to hear your okay , it’s scary when you get symptoms like that and such a relief when it’s not the big C. BTW what chance now do you reckon for a no deal brexit ?
It’s absolutely vital that children do grow up understanding the society they live in and they grow up tolerant, seeking equality and respecting differences… I think it is the case that you have to allow parents to choose to withdraw their children up to a certain age, but at the same time in order to have an equal society there comes a point where children do need to understand the social norms around them
As a parent I cannot fault that approach. This is yet more partisan point scoring when there are better things to be doing.
Does anyone actually think May will bring her proposal for a vote on Monday? If it is a do or die situation those who have held their bladders until now won't wet themselves Sunday night and suddenly decide they need to back the deal. She'll pull it, which will only embolden the no dealer holdouts further - she'll be losing their votes as they see the chances of stopping Brexit receding, without gaining any further votes.
As much as I'd wish for this to be over with end of next week, I see Parliament finally having had enough of May.
Monday Letwin and Cooper will try and force through another amendment along with Boles, it is possible the Commons could an end the political declaration to aim for a Single Market and Customs Union BINO end point and then vote through the Withdrawal Agreement on that basis
What would Letwin/Cooper be an amendment to? I severely doubt May will bring forward her deal, so I'm unclear procedurally what their proposal would be attached to, of if it can standalone.
Comments
Wishing the deal through won't work. No dealers will lose incentive to vote for it every day. Where are the 75 votes she needs (assuming no switchers) coming from?
MPs of course will think the same.
Well done Theresa and Parliament.
FWIW my decidedly apolitical wife has just, in amongst feeding the baby, watched her statement on the nine o’clock news.
She expressed her anger at the faffing of the MPs, her admiration of Theresa May's tenacity and poured scorn on those who constantly criticise her who couldn’t begin to do her job, or even a small part of it.
Make of that what you will.
Really the only way out is to VONC the government on Monday, requiring a very brave leap by the Tory remainers, creating some sort of one-job government to at least get a longer extension sorted next week. I can't see MPs having the courage or co-ordination to get this done.
For all those who claim voting for the WA is the only way to save Brexit so is voting against it now.
It was fine. If it was the people who were voting on MV3.
Congrats.
That's terrific news and far more important than this stuff.
Log off and enjoy yourself.
As for the books, May will never write her memoirs (just as Cameron will never finish his). Who wants to revisit a career which ended in unmitigated and self-inflicted disaster.
Besides, it's frequently case that the reaction becomes the story. That hasn't happened so far.
(A friend is going through something atm where they can tell him what it isn't, but not what it is - which is making the treatment rather hit-and-miss.)
I vomited last week, and there was a hint of blood, coupled with a bit of unexplained weight loss and my father insisted I had to get checked out.
Enough said,
Unfortunately for her, as with Trump and his wall, she needs the goodwill of lawmakers to get her vision through - and in her case, she needs MP's much more desperately, to stop her career crashing down around her at any time soon.
https://twitter.com/United_Bosnia/status/1108408525158580225
I love fish too much.
Since it is the lagershed.
What do soya beans and dildos have in common?
Both get used as substitute meat.
It’s absolutely vital that children do grow up understanding the society they live in and they grow up tolerant, seeking equality and respecting differences… I think it is the case that you have to allow parents to choose to withdraw their children up to a certain age, but at the same time in order to have an equal society there comes a point where children do need to understand the social norms around them
As a parent I cannot fault that approach. This is yet more partisan point scoring when there are better things to be doing.
The butt hurt is partly due to knowing they deserve a telling off but not by her!