Reading that it’s hard to see how he can be described as a leftie. Women need to stay at home to wipe their parents’ bottoms, young people should not movevfrom where they were born. It’s reactionary nonsense.
Its putting an opposite view to the globalist nonsense that young people should move around the world with the result they end up renting a room in Walthamstow, being exploited in a crap job and being tens of thousands in debt.
With all the profits going to the George Osbornes of the world.
Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. A Brexiteers dream of Empire days...
I am sure they would have shoes nowadays. PS: exceedingly sexist to assume it would be daughter's only
At least the shoes will be cheaper because of Brexit
Do we still make shoes in the UK, surely the tariffs will mean we are all barefoot soon
I've said before that modern middle class life increasingly demands an exploited immigrant serf class for menial service sector activities together with an exploited foreign workforce for agricultural and manufactured produce.
Why just middle class? Do working class daughters tend to stay at home to wipe their elderly fathers’ bottoms?
In my experience they do so rather more.
Probably through a combination of family ties being more important in working class communities, working class families being less geographically dispersed, working class people being more willing to do 'menial' jobs and working class oldies being likely to die a bit earlier.
In my experience women are a lot more likely to work than they used to and elderly parents unable to look after themselves also need looking after during working hours, not just in the evenings and weekends. I am also not sure why Fraser believes the responsibility lies solely with daughters.
The reference to daughters is rather old-fashioned but I dare say it corresponds to the gender balance in the care sector.
Reading that it’s hard to see how he can be described as a leftie. Women need to stay at home to wipe their parents’ bottoms, young people should not movevfrom where they were born. It’s reactionary nonsense.
Its putting an opposite view to the globalist nonsense that young people should move around the world with the result they end up renting a room in Walthamstow, being exploited in a crap job and being tens of thousands in debt.
With all the profits going to the George Osbornes of the world.
Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. A Brexiteers dream of Empire days...
I am sure they would have shoes nowadays. PS: exceedingly sexist to assume it would be daughter's only
It is exceedingly sexist to assume the daughters do the caring of elderly relatives. It is unfortunately also mostly true.
In my opinion all elected representatives should be able to justify a strong connection to the area they represent. This could include being born or raised (school - not university) or settled (living and working there for say 5 years) either in the constituency or in a near neighbour. Parachuting in non-local candidates should not happen - there are always enough suitabe local candidates to choose from without carpetbaggers..
People can choose to vote against the carpetbaggers if it is a problem. If they care more about the party brand than carpetbagging I don't see why rules need to be in place to prevent the latter.
Can they though? Given that in the majority of constituencies its only lab or con that are electable how many constituencies have the candidates from both those parties parachuted in? Genuine question as I don't know the answer.
If both main parties parachute in and most constituencies have both candidates non local then the choice to vote local in reality does not exist
One of the problems with local candidates for local people is that in constituencies of 80,000+ its a bit of an impossible thing to achieve. Some mythical inner city constituencies may be consistent to the extent than an individual can be truly representative of the whole, but generally places vary so much that you can never truly know or be representative of the whole. Indeed arguably local candidates may be at a disadvantage, because they will think and claim to know the place, when in truth they only know part of it and bias accordingly.
Would still help if they were not hand picked spads with a useless degree from the few select universities , rich toffs who don't have a clue what real life is like. Maybe if requirement was that you had to have had a real job in the private sector for a minimum period before being even considered as qualified would help a bit.
I've said before that modern middle class life increasingly demands an exploited immigrant serf class for menial service sector activities together with an exploited foreign workforce for agricultural and manufactured produce.
Why just middle class? Do working class daughters tend to stay at home to wipe their elderly fathers’ bottoms?
Broadly speaking, yes. And now you have learned something today...
OK, working class people have less money to devote to elderly care, so the carer by default becomes that family member who stayed at/near home. But due to education and work patterns, the one that stays at/near home is more likely to be female . So the carer of an elderly working-class person tends to be the daughter.
This is not the same as saying all working-class daughters become carers, but it is saying that the carer of a working-class parent is most likely their daughter. Middle-class people have the money to pay somebody else to do it.
Reading that it’s hard to see how he can be described as a leftie. Women need to stay at home to wipe their parents’ bottoms, young people should not movevfrom where they were born. It’s reactionary nonsense.
Its putting an opposite view to the globalist nonsense that young people should move around the world with the result they end up renting a room in Walthamstow, being exploited in a crap job and being tens of thousands in debt.
With all the profits going to the George Osbornes of the world.
It’s literally saying young people should stay where they’re born and women should not aspire to anything more than looking after their elderly parents. Obviously, this does not apply to Fraser or his family.
People should always aspire to something better.
But renting a room in Walthamstow, being exploited in a crap job and being tens of thousands in debt doesn't seem to be a successful way of putting those aspirations in practice.
Not everybody who wants to get on moves to London. Apparently there are other places in the UK...
Good header. An equal opportunity dressing down for Lab and Con. Sense that Cyclefree might be joining the ranks of the non-voters next time.
'YBarddCwsc' (bit of a struggle with that) makes some great points IMO about how parliament is to its great detriment disproportionately stuffed with privately educated white males from affluent backgrounds in the South of England who have Oxbridge degrees in something that does not involve numbers.
Tom Watson even better than my man Michael Gove, I thought, on Marr. He appears to have gained gravitas in losing weight - a great swap.
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
Watson can speak freely because, for the first time, he has options.
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
The problem is NOT people being parachuted into safe seats.
It’s that there are safe seats in the first place. FPTP creates these little silos, but the way it has been implemented in the UK doubly reinforces party fiefdoms.
Address the cause, not the symptoms.
I like FPTP for nostalgic reasons but recognise it's a totally antiquated system and needs to be replaced by STV as soon as possible. (Election night wouldn't be as interesting without FPTP).
Nonsense, STV election are fascinating. Especially for those like PB'ers that understand and follow the detail.
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
Reading that it’s hard to see how he can be described as a leftie. Women need to stay at home to wipe their parents’ bottoms, young people should not movevfrom where they were born. It’s reactionary nonsense.
Its putting an opposite view to the globalist nonsense that young people should move around the world with the result they end up renting a room in Walthamstow, being exploited in a crap job and being tens of thousands in debt.
With all the profits going to the George Osbornes of the world.
Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. A Brexiteers dream of Empire days...
I am sure they would have shoes nowadays. PS: exceedingly sexist to assume it would be daughter's only
It is exceedingly sexist to assume the daughters do the caring of elderly relatives. It is unfortunately also mostly true.
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
1) Earnings are not proportional to intelligence: it's a contributing factor but not the only nor prime one.[nb 1] 2) A plurality of people, if motivated and given enough time, are capable of understanding a summary of the Withdrawal Agreement.
[nb 1] In fact, I think at the top end there's a negative correlation...
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
You are in the wrong forum if you just want to spout off without any grounding in reality or opportunity for betting.
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
As opposed to the Remainer dream of the 50s - the Deep South of the 1850s.
That's obviously factually inaccurate.
The mentality has similarities.
As I said earlier modern middle class life is dependent upon a lot of exploitation.
You made assumptions regarding Remainer motives (like Leavers, they were multivariate), then did a reductio ad absurdum on those motives, ending with a comparison that was wildly inaccurate. You could have made your point without doing so.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
I've said before that modern middle class life increasingly demands an exploited immigrant serf class for menial service sector activities together with an exploited foreign workforce for agricultural and manufactured produce.
Why just middle class? Do working class daughters tend to stay at home to wipe their elderly fathers’ bottoms?
In my experience they do so rather more.
Probably through a combination of family ties being more important in working class communities, working class families being less geographically dispersed, working class people being more willing to do 'menial' jobs and working class oldies being likely to die a bit earlier.
In my experience women are a lot more likely to work than they used to and elderly parents unable to look after themselves also need looking after during working hours, not just in the evenings and weekends. I am also not sure why Fraser believes the responsibility lies solely with daughters.
There's nothing in the piece that suggests he does.
It is written from an anecdote with a friend who is a female GP.
I was more interested that he thinks Remain is the free-market side. Interesting, bearing in mind fortress Europe.
Having said that, having seen some of his Church Times columns years ago, he is still in the habit of selecting fairly randomly targets for overly-focused attacks.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
Is this anything new? I thought it was always the case that there would only be a meaningful vote this week if there had been significant progress in the negotiations. Failing that, there would be an amendable government motion that would allow the Cooper/Boles etc amendments to be reintroduced this week.
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
1) Earnings are not proportional to intelligence: it's a contributing factor but not the only nor prime one.[nb 1] 2) A plurality of people, if motivated and given enough time, are capable of understanding a summary of the Withdrawal Agreement.
[nb 1] In fact, I think at the top end there's a negative correlation...
Agree totally though hard to imagine many more on here would agree given the boasting about degrees and dumbness of ordinary people etc. by lots of posters
Is this anything new? I thought it was always the case that there would only be a meaningful vote this week if there had been significant progress in the negotiations. Failing that, there would be an amendable government motion that would allow the Cooper/Boles etc amendments to be reintroduced this week.
That was my understanding.
TM has apparently said by the 12th March so anytime upto then depending on progress and this weeks amendments
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
You are in the wrong forum if you just want to spout off without any grounding in reality or opportunity for betting.
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
I would suggest that the thing lacking grounding in reality is that even a successful Tig would change anything. Historically when a third party has arisen and become successful all that is happened is that one of the two original main parties has waned until we are back to a two party system. That is not change that is more of the same. Perhaps you would care to suggest what might change other than asserting it because I don't see anything with Tig suggesting change except the possibility that one of the two current main players might get replaced.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
You are in the wrong forum if you just want to spout off without any grounding in reality or opportunity for betting.
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
I would suggest that the thing lacking grounding in reality is that even a successful Tig would change anything. Historically when a third party has arisen and become successful all that is happened is that one of the two original main parties has waned until we are back to a two party system. That is not change that is more of the same. Perhaps you would care to suggest what might change other than asserting it because I don't see anything with Tig suggesting change except the possibility that one of the two current main players might get replaced.
I've said before that modern middle class life increasingly demands an exploited immigrant serf class for menial service sector activities together with an exploited foreign workforce for agricultural and manufactured produce.
Why just middle class? Do working class daughters tend to stay at home to wipe their elderly fathers’ bottoms?
In my experience they do so rather more.
Probably through a combination of family ties being more important in working class communities, working class families being less geographically dispersed, working class people being more willing to do 'menial' jobs and working class oldies being likely to die a bit earlier.
In my experience women are a lot more likely to work than they used to and elderly parents unable to look after themselves also need looking after during working hours, not just in the evenings and weekends. I am also not sure why Fraser believes the responsibility lies solely with daughters.
There's nothing in the piece that suggests he does.
It is written from an anecdote with a friend who is a female GP.
I was more interested that he thinks Remain is the free-market side. Interesting, bearing in mind fortress Europe.
Having said that, having seen some of his Church Times columns years ago, he is still in the habit of selecting fairly randomly targets for overly-focused attacks.
Fortress Europe is a myth, at least in the modern world. It is not just the Single Market, but also an extensive web of free trade deals, not just with Japan and South Korea, but also most of the LDCs in Africa and Asia.
Brexit makes more sense as a drawing up of the drawbridge rather than an opening of the gates. Indeed as we see, terms of trade will be significantly worse for the forseable future post Brexit.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
You are in the wrong forum if you just want to spout off without any grounding in reality or opportunity for betting.
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
I would suggest that the thing lacking grounding in reality is that even a successful Tig would change anything. Historically when a third party has arisen and become successful all that is happened is that one of the two original main parties has waned until we are back to a two party system. That is not change that is more of the same. Perhaps you would care to suggest what might change other than asserting it because I don't see anything with Tig suggesting change except the possibility that one of the two current main players might get replaced.
The first chance in our lifetime to achieve PR.
shudders I hope not
FPTP = we tell you what we will do then you vote (then if you are lucky we might stick to manifesto you gave us a mandate for)
PR = Give us a mandate then after you vote we will tell you what you voted for.
The system in my opinion needs a bigger reboot than merely tinkering with the voting system
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
I disagree entirely.
I disagree about the connection between intelligence and wealth.
I disagree that the job of MPs is to analyse a document and vote solely on whether it's in their constituents' interests.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
There are other ways to force the PM's hand.
Let’s say the Commons votes to instruct May to request an extension. She refuses. What can they do, short of VONCing her?
Sodha seems to me to have a very peculiar, and patronising, framing, when she says:
You don’t have to deny she is responsible for any crimes she may have committed in order to think she should be brought back to the UK to be held accountable.
Begum chose to go thousands of miles to join, and support, a society run by an organisation where mass rape, mass murder, slavery, viewing others as less human etc were matters of policy - leaving aside demolition of world heritage sites etc, though Saudi Arabia has done similar destruction even in Mecca. Begum then affirmed such support, having lived in that place for a number of years.
Justice is owed first to the victims of those crimes, and Begum should be tried there first, not here.
I would say that it is offensive for Sodha to suggest otherwise. If it were a different question, leftists would be calling her an Imperialist.
I think the deprivation of citizenship issue is perhaps less important in the scheme of things.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
There are other ways to force the PM's hand.
Let’s say the Commons votes to instruct May to request an extension. She refuses. What can they do, short of VONCing her?
VONCing her would be the obvious step, but the cabinet look likely to coerce her before it got to that point.
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
There are other ways to force the PM's hand.
Let’s say the Commons votes to instruct May to request an extension. She refuses. What can they do, short of VONCing her?
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
There are other ways to force the PM's hand.
Let’s say the Commons votes to instruct May to request an extension. She refuses. What can they do, short of VONCing her?
If they were to do that surely the general election campaign would take us past the 29th of March so by the time we had a new government we would have crashed out. While yes we could ask for an extension subsequent to the VONC that would be somewhat of a gamble as we are assured the EU would grant one. One way for the Tories to get off the hook for a no deal crashout by pointing at those that VONC'ed them and saying "hey we would have got a deal through but they stopped us"
Given the paucity of choice, anyone who has moaned about the state of our politics these recent years should be cheering on and voting for what will hopefully be an emerging centre party alliance, as a means to an end, if not an end itself. Not least because, if it fails, we are surely stuck with the old system for good.
I fail to see why even if successful this centre party alliance will change anything they will just become another mediocre party just like all the others. Our political system is fatally flawed and needs to be put down and a blank piece of paper brought out
And how exactly is that going to come about?
I was expressing an opinion of what I believe is needed not offering a solution. There is no clear path to make this happen I am sure listening to chatter in my office or the streets of my town that I am not the only one that thinks we need change.
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
You are in the wrong forum if you just want to spout off without any grounding in reality or opportunity for betting.
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
I would suggest that the thing lacking grounding in reality is that even a successful Tig would change anything. Historically when a third party has arisen and become successful all that is happened is that one of the two original main parties has waned until we are back to a two party system. That is not change that is more of the same. Perhaps you would care to suggest what might change other than asserting it because I don't see anything with Tig suggesting change except the possibility that one of the two current main players might get replaced.
The first chance in our lifetime to achieve PR.
shudders I hope not
FPTP = we tell you what we will do then you vote (then if you are lucky we might stick to manifesto you gave us a mandate for)
PR = Give us a mandate then after you vote we will tell you what you voted for.
The system in my opinion needs a bigger reboot than merely tinkering with the voting system
Without specifics and a plan you are just full of s**t
She should delay just the once more and then getting an A50 extension bill through the Lords in time will be nigh on impossible without government backing. The referendum decision must be implemented.
There's no need for any bill to go through parliament to extend article 50.
There is to force the executive against the express wishes of the PM.
I simply find enforcing a local connection to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's unnecessarily restrictive for far from obvious benefit, and although people moan after the fact sometimes I'm with Jonathan on this one, people vote for parties and really don't seem to prioritising local connection when making their decision which they can still do if they want.
Since enforcing a local connection will in no way guarantee a higher quality of MP nor even that they are better at taking note of and representing the local area, where's the need for it? If the problem is the quality of the people who are MPs, who selects them and so on, this does nothing to advance the quality.
No system will guarantee quality of candidate: in many cases the quality will not be known until they are tested. But localism will be better than SPADs and friends of people at the top of the party. .
I think that is wildly optimistic.
You might well be right. But the current system is totally broken.
Is it? Turnout has gone up 4 GEs in a row (if barely in a few cases) and very few people seem concerned where their MP comes from.
Yep, it is. We have a fairly lamentable standard of MPs: some gems, but also some incredibly poor candidates who are only in position because of who they know in the national party. That's bad for the country.
Perhaps localism isn't the answer, and perhaps it is. But we cannot continue blindly selecting candidates for the benefit of the national party over the area they're supposed to represent.
Parties would argue they are doing both. I take any statement from a party with massive grains of salt, but I do not feel the existence of carpetbaggers who may therefore find it hard to connect with their area is definitive proof that such people are not representing their areas effectively.
FPTP = we tell you what we will do then you vote (then if you are lucky we might stick to manifesto you gave us a mandate for)
PR = Give us a mandate then after you vote we will tell you what you voted for.
The system in my opinion needs a bigger reboot than merely tinkering with the voting system
Without specifics and a plan you are just full of s**t
I made a suggestion in a thread the other day of a system I would find preferable. However it seems its only you that is allowed to say the system needs to change in your mind and instead decide to turn what had a civil conversation to pure insult. I don't need to be a mechanic or be able to know the best way to fix it to know a car is broken.
Can’t see the markets reacting well to Theresa’s latestvwheeze.
She clearly only cares about the possibility that if people have no times for anything else they will choose her deal, a very all or nothing strategy, and because they are the biggest group of potential splitters she wants to put off annoying the ERG definitively as long as possible. I have her the benefit of the doubt as a grown up in the room on this matter up to December, but since them she's just say there, pursuing things she said were impossible and the EU keeps stating they won't do.
If this doesn't cause some more Tories to Tig what the hell will?
It turns out taking back control means giving it all to Theresa May. Corbyn enables this, of course. She would not dare do it if there was a well-led, competent opposition.
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
I disagree entirely.
I disagree about the connection between intelligence and wealth.
I disagree that the job of MPs is to analyse a document and vote solely on whether it's in their constituents' interests.
Happy to agree to disagree on the first point.
But on the second: the core of your argument is that local people are needed to represent their constituents properly. I fail to see how they can do that of they can't assimilate a tonne of information on a huge range of topics in a short period of time, constantly, and interpret it to understand the impact on the people they represent. That seems to me to a difficult ask for all but a fairly select group of people.
If they're just relying on party lines to tell them how to vote most of the time, in what way is their localness relevant or necessary?
Cameron and Osborne didn't call her Submarine May for nothing...
Or, the Death Star, as per Parris in the Times
I love that still nobody has the faintest idea what Theresa will do when the clock the finally runs out.
If her deal isn't passed will she go for "No Deal" ? Or will she revoke and call it all off?
With barely a month left nobody except maybe Philip May knows.... Incredible!
For what it's worth, and bear in mind I am not a tory so perhaps lack insight into their thinking on it. My money is spread over May's deal or no deal well enough to make me green. I just can't see her revoking she is too stubborn Of course if she revokes I lose
Fuck you Theresa May. This is unforgivably reckless, and all so you can put off a decision for the ERG.
Abuse aside, why is May going to this meeting? She's made it abundantly clear that she doesn't expect to be having anything to do with the management of the EU after the end of next month, and the meeting to which she is going is between that and the Arab League. Quite frankly, I can well imagine that, Jordan and maybe the Saudi's, perhaps apart, most Arab states regard the UK as untrustworthy and possibly as pro-Israeli, so what can she possibly hope to contribute?
Can’t see the markets reacting well to Theresa’s latestvwheeze.
She clearly only cares about the possibility that if people have no times for anything else they will choose her deal, a very all or nothing strategy, and because they are the biggest group of potential splitters she wants to put off annoying the ERG definitively as long as possible. I have her the benefit of the doubt as a grown up in the room on this matter up to December, but since them she's just say there, pursuing things she said were impossible and the EU keeps stating they won't do.
If this doesn't cause some more Tories to Tig what the hell will?
I have to say she has more courage or is just plain stubborn to continue ths strategy.
I doubt any other politician would have had the conviction in their own self belief to behave this way
She really is a 'bloody difficult woman'
She is playing all or nothing, get the deal and she will be in an unassailable position, achieve no deal and she will be forever diminished
Cameron and Osborne didn't call her Submarine May for nothing...
Or, the Death Star, as per Parris in the Times
I love that still nobody has the faintest idea what Theresa will do when the clock the finally runs out.
If her deal isn't passed will she go for "No Deal" ? Or will she revoke and call it all off?
With barely a month left nobody except maybe Philip May knows.... Incredible!
For what it's worth, and bear in mind I am not a tory so perhaps lack insight into their thinking on it. My money is spread over May's deal or no deal well enough to make me green. I just can't see her revoking she is too stubborn Of course if she revokes I lose
What you need to look out for is that if you force the ERG into a binary Deal/No Deal choice, they could reject the choice and go for revocation. This is already starting to happen among ardent Brexiteers outside parliament.
Can’t see the markets reacting well to Theresa’s latestvwheeze.
She clearly only cares about the possibility that if people have no times for anything else they will choose her deal, a very all or nothing strategy, and because they are the biggest group of potential splitters she wants to put off annoying the ERG definitively as long as possible. I have her the benefit of the doubt as a grown up in the room on this matter up to December, but since them she's just say there, pursuing things she said were impossible and the EU keeps stating they won't do.
If this doesn't cause some more Tories to Tig what the hell will?
I have to say she has more courage or is just plain stubborn to continue ths strategy.
I doubt any other politician would have had the conviction in their own self belief to behave this way
She really is a 'bloody difficult woman'
She is playing all or nothing, get the deal and she will be in an unassailable position, achieve no deal and she will be forever diminished
The message she is sending to any business that sells into the single market is get the hell out as quickly as possible. It’s the strategy of a bloody stupid and entirely selfish woman.
Can’t see the markets reacting well to Theresa’s latestvwheeze.
She clearly only cares about the possibility that if people have no times for anything else they will choose her deal, a very all or nothing strategy, and because they are the biggest group of potential splitters she wants to put off annoying the ERG definitively as long as possible. I have her the benefit of the doubt as a grown up in the room on this matter up to December, but since them she's just say there, pursuing things she said were impossible and the EU keeps stating they won't do.
If this doesn't cause some more Tories to Tig what the hell will?
I have to say she has more courage or is just plain stubborn to continue ths strategy.
I doubt any other politician would have had the conviction in their own self belief to behave this way
She really is a 'bloody difficult woman'
She is playing all or nothing, get the deal and she will be in an unassailable position, achieve no deal and she will be forever diminished
The message she is sending to any business that sells into the single market is get the hell out as quickly as possible. It’s the strategy of a bloody stupid and entirely selfish woman.
Not much point in cancelling the Parliamentary recess, then giving them sod all to do, while she dodges the limelight hobnobbing with foreign potentates.
Antoinette Sandbach backed the deal in January. If the Conservatives lost her from their ranks, they would be losing part of the solution not part of the problem.
There were no moves to deselect her between 2010 and 2015.
I would add to your list of MP skills: hard working, thick skinned, and for a lot of the likely candidates, a willingness to take a substantial pay cut for a lot of thankless effort.
I think your final statement is quite telling and shows a lot of bias.
MPs are in the top 5 per cent of UK earners. You clearly think most "likely candidates" are in a still higher percentile, as they must be willing to take a "substantial" pay cut. Not just a pay cut, a "substantial" one!!!!!
I don't.
I think there are loads of people who could do the job well and for whom being an MP would be a substantial pay rise !!
Those are the people I want to see representing Liverpool Wavertree.
You're certainly right about my bias, but let's put things another way: the most important political issue of out time is undoubtedly Brexit. How many of our current MPs have read and understand the Withdrawal Agreement sufficiently to vote on whether it's in their constituents' interests to accept it or not? At what earnings percentile (roughly) do you think that level of comprehension kicks in? Because I'm pretty sure it's well above the 95th.
I disagree entirely.
I disagree about the connection between intelligence and wealth.
I disagree that the job of MPs is to analyse a document and vote solely on whether it's in their constituents' interests.
Happy to agree to disagree on the first point.
But on the second: the core of your argument is that local people are needed to represent their constituents properly. I fail to see how they can do that of they can't assimilate a tonne of information on a huge range of topics in a short period of time, constantly, and interpret it to understand the impact on the people they represent. That seems to me to a difficult ask for all but a fairly select group of people.
If they're just relying on party lines to tell them how to vote most of the time, in what way is their localness relevant or necessary?
However Endillion it does sort of sound here like you are arguing for governance by technocrat when you say "That seems to me to a difficult ask for all but a fairly select group of people." . While I am sure our mp's are very intelligent people in their fields sadly it is also true to say that outside those fields they are as dense as the rest of us you merely have to look at any of their mutterings about internet governance or encryption to understand that
Antoinette Sandbach backed the deal in January. If the Conservatives lost her from their ranks, they would be losing part of the solution not part of the problem.
Indeed. The PM is playing with fire here, unless she's confident of getting some kind of concession from the EU. Even in that scenario it's a stupid idea.
PM knows we need more time to be ready for any sort of Leave. She must have officials, politicians and businesspeople telling her this morning, noon, and night.
PM knows she can never be seen to propose an extension for she would be burned alive by her party.
So PM needs to engineer a situation where she is forced to extend despite her apparently seeming to have tried as hard as she could to never go there.
I first voted Tory when thatcher was in power but this is the first time I am ashamed to have voted Tory. This omnishambles is killing our party. I am waiting to see what Ruth Davidson will say but at the moment would not only voté tig but be happy to send it some money
Comments
If both main parties parachute in and most constituencies have both candidates non local then the choice to vote local in reality does not exist
https://twitter.com/Sandbach/status/1099586227051864064
OK, working class people have less money to devote to elderly care, so the carer by default becomes that family member who stayed at/near home. But due to education and work patterns, the one that stays at/near home is more likely to be female . So the carer of an elderly working-class person tends to be the daughter.
This is not the same as saying all working-class daughters become carers, but it is saying that the carer of a working-class parent is most likely their daughter. Middle-class people have the money to pay somebody else to do it.
Watson can speak freely because, for the first time, he has options.
As I said earlier modern middle class life is dependent upon a lot of exploitation.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/24/shamima-begum-sajiv-javid
She is at least guaranteeing MPs will take control when they eventually get the chance
I am however sure that a new centrist alliance isn't going to change anything for the better. Our political system was built in a much different age and as recent events have shown us it is not fit for purpose and has been captured by political pygmies who care more about themselves and their party than they do about the country and the people in it.
2) A plurality of people, if motivated and given enough time, are capable of understanding a summary of the Withdrawal Agreement.
[nb 1] In fact, I think at the top end there's a negative correlation...
It would be so easy to dismiss the changes taking place now, and then condemn ourselves to representation by the same broken two-party system for the rest of our lives.
Of course it could be the same people, just 40-50 years older!
It is written from an anecdote with a friend who is a female GP.
I was more interested that he thinks Remain is the free-market side. Interesting, bearing in mind fortress Europe.
Having said that, having seen some of his Church Times columns years ago, he is still in the habit of selecting fairly randomly targets for overly-focused attacks.
I thought it was always the case that there would only be a meaningful vote this week if there had been significant progress in the negotiations.
Failing that, there would be an amendable government motion that would allow the Cooper/Boles etc amendments to be reintroduced this week.
TM has apparently said by the 12th March so anytime upto then depending on progress and this weeks amendments
Brexit makes more sense as a drawing up of the drawbridge rather than an opening of the gates. Indeed as we see, terms of trade will be significantly worse for the forseable future post Brexit.
FPTP = we tell you what we will do then you vote (then if you are lucky we might stick to manifesto you gave us a mandate for)
PR = Give us a mandate then after you vote we will tell you what you voted for.
The system in my opinion needs a bigger reboot than merely tinkering with the voting system
I disagree about the connection between intelligence and wealth.
I disagree that the job of MPs is to analyse a document and vote solely on whether it's in their constituents' interests.
You don’t have to deny she is responsible for any crimes she may have committed in order to think she should be brought back to the UK to be held accountable.
Begum chose to go thousands of miles to join, and support, a society run by an organisation where mass rape, mass murder, slavery, viewing others as less human etc were matters of policy - leaving aside demolition of world heritage sites etc, though Saudi Arabia has done similar destruction even in Mecca. Begum then affirmed such support, having lived in that place for a number of years.
Justice is owed first to the victims of those crimes, and Begum should be tried there first, not here.
I would say that it is offensive for Sodha to suggest otherwise. If it were a different question, leftists would be calling her an Imperialist.
I think the deprivation of citizenship issue is perhaps less important in the scheme of things.
Can Kicking Theresa Strikes Again!
The date has been set anytime upto 12th March but I do not expect accurate reporting from Sky
The vote was not taking place this week but will be by the 12th March and not on the 12th March as reported by Rigby
If this doesn't cause some more Tories to Tig what the hell will?
If her deal isn't passed will she go for "No Deal" ? Or will she revoke and call it all off?
With barely a month left nobody except maybe Philip May knows.... Incredible!
The Euro elections use PR. There is just one LibDem left.
The Welsh Assembly elections partly use PR. There is just one LibDem left.
The Scottish Parliamentary elections partly use PR. The LibDems are down to 1 seat on the list (the other 4 seats are FPTP).
PR is not going to revive the political centre. In fact, it is more likely to revive the extremes.
Without PR for the European elections, UKIP could never have become so powerful.
But on the second: the core of your argument is that local people are needed to represent their constituents properly. I fail to see how they can do that of they can't assimilate a tonne of information on a huge range of topics in a short period of time, constantly, and interpret it to understand the impact on the people they represent. That seems to me to a difficult ask for all but a fairly select group of people.
If they're just relying on party lines to tell them how to vote most of the time, in what way is their localness relevant or necessary?
Of course if she revokes I lose
I doubt any other politician would have had the conviction in their own self belief to behave this way
She really is a 'bloody difficult woman'
She is playing all or nothing, get the deal and she will be in an unassailable position, achieve no deal and she will be forever diminished
https://twitter.com/DarrenEuronews/status/1099663004495462400
https://twitter.com/Sandbach/status/1099586227051864064
Good spot. She doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.
https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/02/11/the-incredible-correlation-between-iq-income/
However Endillion it does sort of sound here like you are arguing for governance by technocrat when you say "That seems to me to a difficult ask for all but a fairly select group of people." . While I am sure our mp's are very intelligent people in their fields sadly it is also true to say that outside those fields they are as dense as the rest of us you merely have to look at any of their mutterings about internet governance or encryption to understand that
PM knows she can never be seen to propose an extension for she would be burned alive by her party.
So PM needs to engineer a situation where she is forced to extend despite her apparently seeming to have tried as hard as she could to never go there.