To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
Chances of a second referendum is small, I don't feel the public wants one and the People's Vote campaign seems to be a very narrow group of people who are failing to reach out to the centre ground.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
I mean, at some point, we might as a Nation conclude that being a gammonocracy isn't working out for us.
Another option is being whispered about in private by cabinet ministers: a mitigated ‘no deal’. The UK would pay the EU money in exchange for a series of mini agreements that would ensure that the planes could keep flying, that customs checks were kept as manageable as possible, and the EU and the UK could trade together in the way that advanced economies do when they don’t have a trade agreement. It would be expensive. I understand that at cabinet this week Philip Hammond explicitly argued that the UK should pay the EU almost all of the £39 billion, even if it leaves without a deal, to facilitate these kinds of arrangements. An acrimonious no deal is still an option, with Mrs May reneging on whatever she promised last December — with significant disruption. Ironically, this would hit Ireland as hard, if not harder, than the United Kingdom.
I fully expect minideals. I don't really know where the cost comes though, I would expect for example airspace rules to be cost neutral.
There have been some breathtakingly fatuous comments on aerospace:
“Any aircraft with British components will no longer be able to fly” - well that’s practically the whole world grounded ex-North Korea.
“British aircraft will not be able to overfly Ireland” - that’s a breach of the Chicago convention. What are they going to do? Shoot us down with the Air Force they don’t have?
“British aircraft won’t be able to land in the EU” - not EU aircraft in Britain, presumably?
Voters, not surprisingly are taking this with a very large pinch of salt. And possibly booking holidays to non-EU destinations.
In addition, the CAA contributes about 40% of the technical resources needed for pan-European flight, across a wide range of options.
And the European Medicines Agency may lose up to 30% of their staff and significantly degrade their capabilities.....
Your statement is incorrect. He has not “generally voted for more EU integration".
I just copy pasted that part from the website.... You'll have to explain to them why 55 votes for is not more than 24 votes against...
I’m just saying on the face of it, the statistics are not particularly convincing.
On the two most important votes -- Maastricht & Lisbon -- Corbyn voted against.
He also went on holiday during the 2016 referendum. Of course, he deserves a holiday, but if the referendum was so important, I guess he could have rearranged his holiday.
I suspect Corbyn’s position on the EU is similar to mine. With some sorrow, I expect he voted Leave.
On topic there was always going to be a crunch point in the discussions with the EU. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that one of the many, many mistakes made by May has been not to have a foot stomping walk out at an earlier stage when there was more time to play with and the opportunity to make proper preparations for a no deal Brexit.
One point arising from PMQs yesterday is that May said that the UK pays its debts and that we will be paying the £39bn whether there is a deal or not. I found that...interesting, not because I disagree with the proposition but because so many of her party, particularly in the ERG, will not.
One point that’s been barely commented upon (except by Guido, funnily enough) is that an extra year’s transition not only buys more time for the trade deal but also gifts the EU an extra £10bn.
I thus think it’s a UK concession to them to buy something else, like some movement on NI or flexibility on treating the UK more cohesively more broadly.
One thing I'm sure of is that Brexit will be very costly in hard cash. As we lose our vote and formal levers of influence we will need to buy off each and every member of the EU27. I wouldn't worry about the €10 billion.
What a wonderful institution the EU is! The made men, and the money and the whacking.
What I find curious is Left-leaning posters who, say, talk dreamily of reducing poverty. When a right-winger says, it can’t be done, that is just the way of the world, they shake their heads and look disdainfully at such hard-headedness.
But, when it comes to the EU, when someone says this is a corrupt and incompetent organisation, there must be a better way to organise the family of European nations, suddenly the Left-leaning poster becomes a hard-headed realist.
“Oh, no there is no better way. What do you expect. We’ve just got to take whatever the EU gives us. That is the way of the world”
It is the disconcerting way idealism gives way to flinty realism that I like.
I think the problem is anyone who tried to talked about wanting to reform the EU and gave it a realistic rating, say 7/10 rather than 10/10 would have their opponents jump on it for propaganda purposes.
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Mr. tpfkar, a problem with the difficult of extrication as a campaign tactic was that it directly contravenes the fiction that the EU doesn't have excessive power.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
the People's Vote campaign seems to be a very narrow group of people who are failing to reach out to the centre ground.
They appear happier talking to other nice people - like themselves.
A second referendum would be a defeat for anyone bothered about democracy (even if Leave won). The signal it would send is that any democratic decision can be delayed and possibly over-turned...
Actually, that is exactly how democracy works. So why are you so bothered?
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
Just watched Robert's latest video. I disagree with him about the Merkel's open door policy. If she was worried about demographics she'd have opened the door to all EU members when she became Chancellor in 2005.
FPT - I am pleased to announce my wife and I are doing our bit about the UK's demographics with our first due in early February next year.
Far more exciting and terrifying than Brexit in equal measure, and far more important.
The 787s and 350s will be comfortably above their operating ceiling max - and all the other jets comfortably faster.....
Fair point, but you do need to add the range of any missiles launched from the planes (if they can so launch: I didn't check) to the ceiling of the plane. Plus if you really want to shoot down airliners Mr Putin has some Ukrainian surface-to-air surplus he can sell cheap...
[For the avoidance of doubt: this is describing what is possible, not what will happen. I am capable of distinguishing between the two. Unlike many Leavers... (ducks)]
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Well, maybe a specific example of something that the UK had managed to change would have bolstered the case that the EU is reformable.
Mr. tpfkar, a problem with the difficult of extrication as a campaign tactic was that it directly contravenes the fiction that the EU doesn't have excessive power.
Calming down after an aggravating morning, I’m inclined to comment, Mr D, that don’t all governments and governing bodies have excessive power? it’s just whether the degree of excessiveness is tolerable or not!
Isn't the main issue with flights post-Brexit going to be insurance? No-one is going to shoot planes down, obs, but no-one is going to insure flights that are not legally underpinned - whether because the pilots' credentials are no longer recognised, parts and repairs are no longer certified, etc etc. A decision to fly without insurance, or to give landing permission to aircraft flying without insurance, would have huge, long-term ramifications.
Your statement is incorrect. He has not “generally voted for more EU integration".
I just copy pasted that part from the website.... You'll have to explain to them why 55 votes for is not more than 24 votes against...
I’m just saying on the face of it, the statistics are not particularly convincing.
On the two most important votes -- Maastricht & Lisbon -- Corbyn voted against.
He also went on holiday during the 2016 referendum. Of course, he deserves a holiday, but if the referendum was so important, I guess he could have rearranged his holiday.
I suspect Corbyn’s position on the EU is similar to mine. With some sorrow, I expect he voted Leave.
He also travelled further and gave more speeches than most in the Remain campaign. Even Angela Eagle complimented his campaigning energy.
Whilst Maastricht might seem like a recent event for some Eurosceptics it was over a couple of decades ago now. I was referring to Corbyn in the modern day rather than before most people had used a mobile phone, I imagine back then he may have held Eurosceptic views similar to yourself. Fast forward to the modern day though and his voting record doesn't really look like one you would have...
You really don't come across as someone who'd give the EU 7/10 and travel up and down the country campaigning for a remain vote either.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
the People's Vote campaign seems to be a very narrow group of people who are failing to reach out to the centre ground.
They appear happier talking to other nice people - like themselves.
And only in their own very nice urban environments....
"The signal it would send is that any democratic decision can be delayed and possibly over-turned if enough 'important' people are against it.".
I suppose you don't see the difference. Sigh.
Edit: We need a new Wat Tyler. No triple votes for Richard II
My apologies for the misquote, but the point I was making still stands - any decision made by the electorate can be overturned by the electorate. If the "important people" keep putting it to us that we need to vote again, we can keep voting the same way if that is what the electorate wants
This is the essence of democracy.
Or "the important people" could try doing as they have been bloody well told by the voters. Many of whom voted in the Referendum for the first time in ages, because (as we hear on the doorsteps at General Election time ) "What's the point of voting? They are all the same, just looking out for themselves, never listening to us...".
Instead our political class is writing its own epitaph. It's gravestone will read "Are you sure you want to get rid of us? Really? Don't want to think again? You're being stupid now...."
See? If you made arguments like that instead of sunshine, rainbows, magic borders and free unicorns on departure, things would be a lot better.
Regarding the moon landing stuff discussed on here last night, watch the below video from about 3.50 onwards. Can anyone explain why NASA astronauts on the space station are saying this stuff about leaving earth orbit ,clearly in their mind Apollo never happened.
Heat/Temperature fail at the start (Think sauna vs vat of boiling water)
Yep. Pulpstar - do you know the answer to my post at 10.17 am. What the guy is saying in the video clip seems very odd and I can't see how it is taken out of context.
I'll watch it later, apologies I don't have sound here and there seems to be no auto-subtitles.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
I heard on radio 4 at about 3am this morning that Remaining was no longer an option. If we tried to back track it wouldn't be on the preferential terms we were on before and the rebate would no longer be on offer.
One point that’s been barely commented upon (except by Guido, funnily enough) is that an extra year’s transition not only buys more time for the trade deal but also gifts the EU an extra £10bn.
I thus think it’s a UK concession to them to buy something else, like some movement on NI or flexibility on treating the UK more cohesively more broadly.
One thing I'm sure of is that Brexit will be very costly in hard cash. As we lose our vote and formal levers of influence we will need to buy off each and every member of the EU27. I wouldn't worry about the €10 billion.
What a wonderful institution the EU is! The made men, and the money and the whacking.
What I find curious is Left-leaning posters who, say, talk dreamily of reducing poverty. When a right-winger says, it can’t be done, that is just the way of the world, they shake their heads and look disdainfully at such hard-headedness.
But, when it comes to the EU, when someone says this is a corrupt and incompetent organisation, there must be a better way to organise the family of European nations, suddenly the Left-leaning poster becomes a hard-headed realist.
“Oh, no there is no better way. What do you expect. We’ve just got to take whatever the EU gives us. That is the way of the world”
It is the disconcerting way idealism gives way to flinty realism that I like.
I think the problem is anyone who tried to talked about wanting to reform the EU and gave it a realistic rating, say 7/10 rather than 10/10 would have their opponents jump on it for propaganda purposes.
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Remain needed the passion some people have suddenly discovered for the EU, I can't see how that could be generated before it was 'taken away' from them. A negative case was largely tried and failed. I think it did need to be a positive case.
Mr. Roger, that was mentioned recently, but also about a year ago, Laura Kuennsberg[sp] reckoned we'd keep Schengen/euro opt-outs, as they're in treaties, but not the rebate.
A second referendum would be a defeat for anyone bothered about democracy (even if Leave won). The signal it would send is that any democratic decision can be delayed and possibly over-turned...
Actually, that is exactly how democracy works. So why are you so bothered?
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
So the day before is not ok, but the day after is? What?
How about when we had the death penalty. You can only appeal after you have been hung? That is what you are saying?
This has just arrived in my inbox. I wonder whether British children will be able to participate? Or whether Apple either haven’t caught up yet, or no something the rest of us don’t!
'Celebrate EU Code Week EU Code Week, being celebrated in October, is an initiative by the European Commission that aims to bring coding and digital literacy to everybody in a fun and engaging way. Apple believes coding is a essential skill for the future. Join us in celebrating EU code week by learning to code with Swift Playgrounds. Swift Playgrounds is a free iPad app that makes learning to code fun and interactive with real Swift code. '
Your statement is incorrect. He has not “generally voted for more EU integration".
I just copy pasted that part from the website.... You'll have to explain to them why 55 votes for is not more than 24 votes against...
I’m just saying on the face of it, the statistics are not particularly convincing.
On the two most important votes -- Maastricht & Lisbon -- Corbyn voted against.
He also went on holiday during the 2016 referendum. Of course, he deserves a holiday, but if the referendum was so important, I guess he could have rearranged his holiday.
I suspect Corbyn’s position on the EU is similar to mine. With some sorrow, I expect he voted Leave.
He also travelled further and gave more speeches than most in the Remain campaign. Even Angela Eagle complimented his campaigning energy.
Whilst Maastricht might seem like a recent event for some Eurosceptics it was a couple of decades ago now. I was referring to Corbyn in the modern day rather than before most people had used a mobile phone, I imagine back then he may have held Eurosceptic views similar to yourself. Fast forward to the modern day though and his voting record doesn't really look like one you would have...
You really don’t come across as someone who’d give the EU 7/10 and travel up and down the country campaigning for a remain vote either.
I have said before, I would have voted to stay in a reformed EU.
I would give the EU 4/10. It has done some good things. I have pointed out -- that using your numbers -- Jeremy has voted for the EU 45 per cent of the time.
I suspect -- on the EU -- Jeremy is very close to my position.
The funny thing is that you think -- on the EU -- that Jeremy is close to your position.
And Recidivist thinks -- on the EU -- he is close to Recidivist’s position.
Regarding the moon landing stuff discussed on here last night, watch the below video from about 3.50 onwards. Can anyone explain why NASA astronauts on the space station are saying this stuff about leaving earth orbit ,clearly in their mind Apollo never happened.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI
That's fairly simple to explain away. For the last 45-odd years, mankind has been stuck in Low Earth Orbit. That is as low as you can go and be 'in space' permanently: it's so low that the ISS needs regular boosts back due to atmospheric drag. The Van Allen belts also give it a fair amount of protection from solar storms and galactic cosmic waves.
Only 24? men have been above LEO (Apollo 8, 10-17), for very brief trips. NASA's next plan is whatever they're calling the LOP-G this week: the Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway. This will sit in an orbit near the Moon, and it is planned to use this as a staging post for missions to the Moon and other places in the solar system. It many also eventually be permanently manned.
This is a different ethos to Apollo, which was a get-them-there-and-back-quickly mission. The LOP-G might be used to get to the Moon, or to Mars, or to the asteroids. It might become a permanently-manned presence in 'deep' space, which mankind has never had before. Hopefully it will lead us to know more about how to live, survive and thrive in deep space. Apollo only did the 'survive' bit.
It's also a *really* controversial project.
Apollo proved to be a dead-end. What many in NASA, and others such as Musk and Bezos want, is a sustainable presence in deep space, whether planetary or orbital. Having near-permanent manned presence in deep space has never been done.
Isn't the main issue with flights post-Brexit going to be insurance? No-one is going to shoot planes down, obs, but no-one is going to insure flights that are not legally underpinned - whether because the pilots' credentials are no longer recognised, parts and repairs are no longer certified, etc etc. A decision to fly without insurance, or to give landing permission to aircraft flying without insurance, would have huge, long-term ramifications.
And the same applies to road vehicles, trains etc - if there is no deal insurance contracts will not be valid across the UK/EU border, separate arrangements will be required on each side. In the case of road vehicles we will presumably have to return to the green card system we had in the past, which will be costly and bureaucratic.
[For the avoidance of doubt: this is describing what is possible, not what will happen. I am capable of distinguishing between the two. Unlike many Leavers... (ducks)]
Irish PC-9s are guns only but I've seen a Croatian PC-9 at 11,000m+. It didn't stay there for long but it did get there.
We used to intercept Eastern Airways flights from Humberside in Tucanos (similar to a PC-9 but shitter) from Linton. Fine sport.
The EU27 diplomat who spoke to POLITICO on condition of anonymity saw another more fundamental reason for optimism — that if the EU accepts the principle of a U.K.-wide customs arrangement in the Withdrawal Agreement, why shouldn’t it supersede the backstop itself?
Well quite. Some of us have been pointing this out all along. The backstop is a complete nonsense, and what is needed is some fudge so that it can be ditched without the EU losing face. Looks like they are trying to make the fudge.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
Your statement is incorrect. He has not “generally voted for more EU integration".
I just copy pasted that part from the website.... You'll have to explain to them why 55 votes for is not more than 24 votes against...
I’m just saying on the face of it, the statistics are not particularly convincing.
On the two most important votes -- Maastricht & Lisbon -- Corbyn voted against.
He also went on holiday during the 2016 referendum. Of course, he deserves a holiday, but if the referendum was so important, I guess he could have rearranged his holiday.
I suspect Corbyn’s position on the EU is similar to mine. With some sorrow, I expect he voted Leave.
He also travelled further and gave more speeches than most in the Remain campaign. Even Angela Eagle complimented his campaigning energy.
Whilst Maastricht might seem like a recent event for some Eurosceptics it was a couple of decades ago now. I was referring to Corbyn in the modern day rather than before most people had used a mobile phone, I imagine back then he may have held Eurosceptic views similar to yourself. Fast forward to the modern day though and his voting record doesn't really look like one you would have...
You really don’t come across as someone who’d give the EU 7/10 and travel up and down the country campaigning for a remain vote either.
I have said before, I would have voted to stay in a reformed EU.
I would give the EU 4/10. It has done some good things. I have pointed out -- that using your numbers -- Jeremy has voted for the EU 45 per cent of the time.
I suspect -- on the EU -- Jeremy is very close to my position.
The funny thing is that you think -- on the EU -- that Jeremy is close to your position.
And Recidivist thinks -- on the EU -- he is close to Recidivist’s position.
Jeremy has done a magical thing on the EU.
4/10 doesn't sound like someone who would, in the words of the website theyworkforyou generally vote for European integration.
But it goes back to something somebody said the other day, they aimed it at one person (or one group in particular) but didn't realise it was just as true of their own side, people believe what they want to believe. Facts are easily interpreted to mean what people want them to mean.
Also yes you are right that I would have Corbyn down as close(ish) to my position, although for different reasons to me and more eurosceptic.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
Notwithstanding the point already made that your argument "democracy only works on a specific date" is specious, we also have the problem of defining implementation
Given the vote was ill-defined, but included reducing immigration, that has happened. This outcome has been delivered. The result of the referendum has been implemented.
£350m for the NHS. Implemented (if Hammond can get the tax rise through the budget)
Or do you want to wait for Airbus and JLR to close their UK plants before declaring that Brexit has been implemented?
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
Isn't the main issue with flights post-Brexit going to be insurance? No-one is going to shoot planes down, obs, but no-one is going to insure flights that are not legally underpinned - whether because the pilots' credentials are no longer recognised, parts and repairs are no longer certified, etc etc. A decision to fly without insurance, or to give landing permission to aircraft flying without insurance, would have huge, long-term ramifications.
Govt backed insurance scheme which recognises EU and UK pilot credentials.... It would only be needed for a relatively short period hopefully.
FPT Could you please tell us the name of this bank.
I do have to laugh. Manufacturing businesses were closed down endlessly under the EU framework and work transferred to Europe, People in the North and Midlands were told to suck it up and the politicians in some cases actually accelaerated the job losses through daft policies. Now that its a few banking jobs going its armageddon.
Its not even a few banking jobs going but rather suggestions of possible jobs losses at some time in the future at unnamed banks.
Meanwhile thousands of actual banking jobs go every year - but they're prole jobs in prole towns so don't seem to matter.
Don't think local branches closing has much to do with the EU. People don't use them like they used to.
The non-eu bank I work at is expanding modestly in Frankfurt and Paris, doing some work to make sure they can service EU clients within EU structures, and delaying plans to do anything interesting in London until the situation is clearer. Also some emergency plans to move more at short notice. Mostly seeing clients following a similar strategy, or doing less business for now, and some obvious Brexit prep. Would be very surprised if this wasn't approximately what everyone else is doing. We follow the herd normally.
In services, the costs are likely to revolve around lost opportunities rather than wholesale job relocations or losses. Our recently acquired business will be expanding significantly in Asia and the US over the coming years and is likely to open an office inside the EU27. For the investors that makes little difference, but what it means is that jobs that would have been created in the UK and taxes that would have been paid here, will now be created and paid elsewhere. Our London HQ will soon service a market of 65 million, instead of one of 450 million. so clearly its importance will be reduced.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
The Brexiteers (Particularly Boris and Davis who were in Gov't at the point of the backstop) seem to be acting with worse logic than the EU this morning... One can argue the backstop applies to N Ireland only (EU, Irish position) One can argue it is a whole UK backstop (DUP, UK Gov't) One can't simply wish it away (Johnson, Davis)
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
If you dont show for the outward the ticket is a cancelled.
In theory at least you can't even use only the outward.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Yep. They've thought of that.
Thank you, you have saved me a *lot* of money.
The logic of airline pricing is one of the world's great mysteries. Earlier this year I saved £750 by adding a rental car to a trip (i.e. including the car it was £750 less than without the car).
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Well, maybe a specific example of something that the UK had managed to change would have bolstered the case that the EU is reformable.
Can you provide one?
No I can't. The nonsense about decamping to Strasbourg once a month at great expense is the first thing I would wish to scrap.
But I think that's my point: I might be only 7/10 on the EU, and wish that there were multiple such organisations in Europe to force them to compete and give us a choice of regional trade groupings. But Brexit is a way of taking all our pent-up frustrations with the EU, its policies and key players, and taking them all out on ourselves at great cost.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
If you dont show for the outward the ticket is a cancelled.
In theory at least you can't even use only the outward.
Regarding the moon landing stuff discussed on here last night, watch the below video from about 3.50 onwards. Can anyone explain why NASA astronauts on the space station are saying this stuff about leaving earth orbit ,clearly in their mind Apollo never happened.
Just watched Robert's latest video. I disagree with him about the Merkel's open door policy. If she was worried about demographics she'd have opened the door to all EU members when she became Chancellor in 2005.
FPT - I am pleased to announce my wife and I are doing our bit about the UK's demographics with our first due in early February next year.
Far more exciting and terrifying than Brexit in equal measure, and far more important.
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
Notwithstanding the point already made that your argument "democracy only works on a specific date" is specious, we also have the problem of defining implementation
Given the vote was ill-defined, but included reducing immigration, that has happened. This outcome has been delivered. The result of the referendum has been implemented.
£350m for the NHS. Implemented (if Hammond can get the tax rise through the budget)
Or do you want to wait for Airbus and JLR to close their UK plants before declaring that Brexit has been implemented?
I'm not talking about what I want - I voted to remain. My argument is simply on the subject of whether failing to implement the referendum result was democratic.
You may be right about defining what exactly is meant by leave, but we have not left under any definition. We have not fully implemented the vote under any definition. As for manifesto pledges, these are broken habitually so I'm afraid that argument falls flat. Remain told their fair share of lies. Politicians lie.
There are many legitimate concerns about Brexit, and there is an argument that a second referendum is the best course of action despite being undemocratic, but pretending that not implementing the referendum result is somehow democratic does your argument more harm than good.
Isn't the main issue with flights post-Brexit going to be insurance? No-one is going to shoot planes down, obs, but no-one is going to insure flights that are not legally underpinned - whether because the pilots' credentials are no longer recognised, parts and repairs are no longer certified, etc etc. A decision to fly without insurance, or to give landing permission to aircraft flying without insurance, would have huge, long-term ramifications.
Govt backed insurance scheme which recognises EU and UK pilot credentials.... It would only be needed for a relatively short period hopefully.
Such a scheme would need legislation to set it up, it would need an operation with expert staff and it would cost, either the public purse or it would be passed on to airlines who would, of course, add it to fares. Since it would need to operate internationally I guess it would require recognition by international bodies that regulate air traffic. You couldn't just set it up overnight.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Yep. They've thought of that.
Thank you, you have saved me a *lot* of money.
The logic of airline pricing is one of the world's great mysteries. Earlier this year I saved £750 by adding a rental car to a trip (i.e. including the car it was £750 less than without the car).
One the ‘advantages’ of privatising the railways was that one would be able to have flexible fares, as with airlines. ‘Nuff said!
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Yep. They've thought of that.
Thank you, you have saved me a *lot* of money.
The logic of airline pricing is one of the world's great mysteries. Earlier this year I saved £750 by adding a rental car to a trip (i.e. including the car it was £750 less than without the car).
Many years ago I booked a skiing trip and you got a discount on the price if you were over a certain number of people such that it was worth booking the extra place even if you didn't have the numbers. Just prior to going I was chased for the name of the mythical person. They initially didn't seem to be able to handle the fact that the person didn't exist. Eventually when they got it I was given a refund on the flight part of the booking. Bonkers!
A second referendum would be a defeat for anyone bothered about democracy (even if Leave won). The signal it would send is that any democratic decision can be delayed and possibly over-turned...
Actually, that is exactly how democracy works. So why are you so bothered?
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
No - the people have the ultimate power. They can vote for anything they like at any time a choice is presented to them. They do not have to follow your prejudices or desires. For instance, I am well aware that a 2nd referendum might vote "Remain" or it might choose to reinforce the original vote and go "Leave" again or no one might bother to vote at all. Who knows?
Whatever the outcome is, it is Democracy in action even if you do not like the answer.
To have another referendum before we have even left because the remain voting PM who replaced him cant cut a deal would be ridiculous in the extreme, and if it were happening anywhere but here, we would be rolling our eyes at the tin pot "democracy".
Some people's real objection to a second referendum is that they'll lose the ability to sneer at Irish democracy.
If there were a second referendum, the side that didn't promise to end FoM would lose. Its all the whole thing has ever been about
I heard on radio 4 at about 3am this morning that Remaining was no longer an option. If we tried to back track it wouldn't be on the preferential terms we were on before and the rebate would no longer be on offer.
I don't think there have been any mutterings at all in that direction from anyone relevant, and lots in the opposite direction. If the British said actually never mind, everybody would breathe an exasperated sign of relief and nobody would be playing silly buggers.
However, this window closes on exit day, and there's no sign the British government wants to go through it.
Isn't the main issue with flights post-Brexit going to be insurance? No-one is going to shoot planes down, obs, but no-one is going to insure flights that are not legally underpinned - whether because the pilots' credentials are no longer recognised, parts and repairs are no longer certified, etc etc. A decision to fly without insurance, or to give landing permission to aircraft flying without insurance, would have huge, long-term ramifications.
Govt backed insurance scheme which recognises EU and UK pilot credentials.... It would only be needed for a relatively short period hopefully.
Such a scheme would need legislation to set it up, it would need an operation with expert staff and it would cost, either the public purse or it would be passed on to airlines who would, of course, add it to fares. Since it would need to operate internationally I guess it would require recognition by international bodies that regulate air traffic. You couldn't just set it up overnight.
Govt can move pretty quickly if it needs to. Brown and Darling essentially nationalised a bunch of banks in a weekend.
The cost to our government of offering planes that are actually safe to fly free insurance would be vastly less than if all flights were grounded.
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
Notwithstanding the point already made that your argument "democracy only works on a specific date" is specious, we also have the problem of defining implementation
Given the vote was ill-defined, but included reducing immigration, that has happened. This outcome has been delivered. The result of the referendum has been implemented.
£350m for the NHS. Implemented (if Hammond can get the tax rise through the budget)
Or do you want to wait for Airbus and JLR to close their UK plants before declaring that Brexit has been implemented?
I'm not talking about what I want - I voted to remain. My argument is simply on the subject of whether failing to implement the referendum result was democratic.
You may be right about defining what exactly is meant by leave, but we have not left under any definition. We have not fully implemented the vote under any definition. As for manifesto pledges, these are broken habitually so I'm afraid that argument falls flat. Remain told their fair share of lies. Politicians lie.
There are many legitimate concerns about Brexit, and there is an argument that a second referendum is the best course of action despite being undemocratic, but pretending that not implementing the referendum result is somehow democratic does your argument more harm than good.
I think this is a strong argument and no doubt it will feature strongly as the debate on a second vote (which I think is now likely) hots up.
But the counter argument is that a no deal Brexit will be so damaging- threatening the very survival of the UK and massive and continuing economic and political damage - that avoiding such a disaster must take priority and theoretical arguments about mandates must be put aside.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Yep - that is exactly what happens. If you do not fulfil the first part of your booking the second part becomes void.
"The signal it would send is that any democratic decision can be delayed and possibly over-turned if enough 'important' people are against it.".
I suppose you don't see the difference. Sigh.
Edit: We need a new Wat Tyler. No triple votes for Richard II
My apologies for the misquote, but the point I was making still stands - any decision made by the electorate can be overturned by the electorate. If the "important people" keep putting it to us that we need to vote again, we can keep voting the same way if that is what the electorate wants
This is the essence of democracy.
Or "the important people" could try doing as they have been bloody well told by the voters. Many of whom voted in the Referendum for the first time in ages, because (as we hear on the doorsteps at General Election time ) "What's the point of voting? They are all the same, just looking out for themselves, never listening to us...".
Instead our political class is writing its own epitaph. It's gravestone will read "Are you sure you want to get rid of us? Really? Don't want to think again? You're being stupid now...."
See? If you made arguments like that instead of sunshine, rainbows, magic borders and free unicorns on departure, things would be a lot better.
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
When pikeys invade the green near where I live, I don't think "bloody Irish, aren't they all awful", I think "I bet the Irish are glad this lot are now England's problem."
It's no great surprise that Buccaneering Berexiteers who never bothered to learn how the EU works, about integrated cross-border supply chains or about how FTAs are done can't be arsed to read their cabinet papers either.
You may be right about defining what exactly is meant by leave, but we have not left under any definition. We have not fully implemented the vote under any definition.
But that's exactly my point.
Since Leave was never defined, I could argue that we have in fact delivered the things most people cared about most strongly.
You may disagree, but that is the nature of argument...
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
If you dont show for the outward the ticket is a cancelled.
In theory at least you can't even use only the outward.
Thank you. I was going to have been a textbook example of the expression "false economy".
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Yep - that is exactly what happens. If you do not fulfil the first part of your booking the second part becomes void.
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
But they, or many of them, are the result of ‘race memories’. Those are hard to remove; look at the attitude to the French on here, or the Germans among some football fans. OK, some of it’s ‘humorous’ but they are the result of conditioning.
How is failing to implement the result of the initial referendum democratic?
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
Notwithstanding the point already made that your argument "democracy only works on a specific date" is specious, we also have the problem of defining implementation
Given the vote was ill-defined, but included reducing immigration, that has happened. This outcome has been delivered. The result of the referendum has been implemented.
£350m for the NHS. Implemented (if Hammond can get the tax rise through the budget)
Or do you want to wait for Airbus and JLR to close their UK plants before declaring that Brexit has been implemented?
I'm not talking about what I want - I voted to remain. My argument is simply on the subject of whether failing to implement the referendum result was democratic.
You may be right about defining what exactly is meant by leave, but we have not left under any definition. We have not fully implemented the vote under any definition. As for manifesto pledges, these are broken habitually so I'm afraid that argument falls flat. Remain told their fair share of lies. Politicians lie.
There are many legitimate concerns about Brexit, and there is an argument that a second referendum is the best course of action despite being undemocratic, but pretending that not implementing the referendum result is somehow democratic does your argument more harm than good.
I think this is a strong argument and no doubt it will feature strongly as the debate on a second vote (which I think is now likely) hots up.
But the counter argument is that a no deal Brexit will be so damaging- threatening the very survival of the UK and massive and continuing economic and political damage - that avoiding such a disaster must take priority and theoretical arguments about mandates must be put aside.
Agree completely that this argument is a valid one, and it is a much more honest one than the one that it's democracy in action. Not sure whether it should win the day or not though.
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
When pikeys invade the green near where I live, I don't think "bloody Irish, aren't they all awful", I think "I bet the Irish are glad this lot are now England's problem."
One should never generalise on the basis of tiny samples.
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Well, maybe a specific example of something that the UK had managed to change would have bolstered the case that the EU is reformable.
Can you provide one?
No I can't. The nonsense about decamping to Strasbourg once a month at great expense is the first thing I would wish to scrap.
But I think that's my point: I might be only 7/10 on the EU, and wish that there were multiple such organisations in Europe to force them to compete and give us a choice of regional trade groupings. But Brexit is a way of taking all our pent-up frustrations with the EU, its policies and key players, and taking them all out on ourselves at great cost.
I have to say I think that is the problem. The EU is unreformable. It defeated even Blair at the height of his powers.
Partly, the UK never properly engaged with the EU, so it never properly learnt how to use the cumbersome levers of power in the EU. The lack of engagement was born of ambivalence.
Then, because we could never change anything, the frustrations with the EU grew greater and greater.
Ultimately, the EU is all or nothing. You have to join everything, fully engage with everything, understand how everything works, and how you can (marginally) influence things.
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
But they, or many of them, are the result of ‘race memories’. Those are hard to remove; look at the attitude to the French on here, or the Germans among some football fans. OK, some of it’s ‘humorous’ but they are the result of conditioning.
Yes, that's true. Encountering a bunch of hooray henrys triggered her race memories. It doesn't occur to her that most English people find such behaviour as obnoxious as she does.
It's no great surprise that Buccaneering Berexiteers who never bothered to learn how the EU works, about integrated cross-border supply chains or about how FTAs are done can't be arsed to read their cabinet papers either.
It makes one despair. And ERG want to replace TM with David Davis who achieved nothing when he had the Brexit job
Time to move to Norway as the only option at present and then take it from there
It's no great surprise that Buccaneering Berexiteers who never bothered to learn how the EU works, about integrated cross-border supply chains or about how FTAs are done can't be arsed to read their cabinet papers either.
It makes one despair. And ERG want to replace TM with David Davis who achieved nothing when he had the Brexit job
Time to move to Norway as the only option at present and then take it from there
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
When pikeys invade the green near where I live, I don't think "bloody Irish, aren't they all awful", I think "I bet the Irish are glad this lot are now England's problem."
One should never generalise on the basis of tiny samples.
Exactly. In my extended family can be found the son of an Irish itinerant asphalter. The son holds a significant job in the NHS, for which he needed at least one degree. A brother is a lawyer. There was a third brother who pursued a criminal life and 'died of drugs’.
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
Her grievances seem very small ones.
It always surprises me that folk who seem to me deeply attached to an almost completely historical memory of Britain's greatness seem unaware that there other kinds of historical memory.
One of the many issues with the referendum: The Leavers were fervent and passionate, and most on the Remain side were 7/10 with lots of things they wanted to change about the EU. Hard to sell the case for a grouping you don't have much enthusiasm for - with hindsight talking about how complex and expensive leaving would be, might have been a better tack.
Well, maybe a specific example of something that the UK had managed to change would have bolstered the case that the EU is reformable.
Can you provide one?
No I can't. The nonsense about decamping to Strasbourg once a month at great expense is the first thing I would wish to scrap.
But I think that's my point: I might be only 7/10 on the EU, and wish that there were multiple such organisations in Europe to force them to compete and give us a choice of regional trade groupings. But Brexit is a way of taking all our pent-up frustrations with the EU, its policies and key players, and taking them all out on ourselves at great cost.
I have to say I think that is the problem. The EU is unreformable. It defeated even Blair at the height of his powers.
Partly, the UK never properly engaged with the EU, so it never properly learnt how to use the cumbersome levers of power in the EU. The lack of engagement was born of ambivalence.
Then, because we could never change anything, the frustrations with the EU grew greater and greater.
Ultimately, the EU is all or nothing. You have to join everything, fully engage with everything, understand how everything works, and how you can (marginally) influence things.
Good post. I think the EU is reformable, in the same way that ants move leaves - lots of to-ing and fro-ing. However, the reality is that the project only proceeds in one direction - more Europe, fewer vetoes and more QMV. Looking at the European media, you can already see the calls for a post Brexit treaty in order to bolster the currency union and remove more national competencies.
My view is that the EU is tacitly a EZ club, and will (rightly) become more so post Brexit. People lament the fact that if we ever do rejoin (or resile from the referendum result) we'll lose our rebates and opt outs, and may even be required to join the Euro. That's something to be welcomed (if you're that way inclined). As you say, if we're in, we need to be all the way in, with wholehearted commitment to The Project.
Comments
On the two most important votes -- Maastricht & Lisbon -- Corbyn voted against.
He also went on holiday during the 2016 referendum. Of course, he deserves a holiday, but if the referendum was so important, I guess he could have rearranged his holiday.
I suspect Corbyn’s position on the EU is similar to mine. With some sorrow, I expect he voted Leave.
If the result of the first referendum was implemented and a 2nd referendum called a day later, that would be democratic; to call a 2nd referendum before the result of thr first has been implemented, isn't.
Many congratulations to you both!
[For the avoidance of doubt: this is describing what is possible, not what will happen. I am capable of distinguishing between the two. Unlike many Leavers... (ducks)]
Can you provide one?
Whilst Maastricht might seem like a recent event for some Eurosceptics it was over a couple of decades ago now. I was referring to Corbyn in the modern day rather than before most people had used a mobile phone, I imagine back then he may have held Eurosceptic views similar to yourself. Fast forward to the modern day though and his voting record doesn't really look like one you would have...
You really don't come across as someone who'd give the EU 7/10 and travel up and down the country campaigning for a remain vote either.
There's no need to be afraid of the government, until it tries to govern you.
Congratulations on the upcoming birth. A magnificent achievement. I hope everything goes OK.
How about when we had the death penalty. You can only appeal after you have been hung? That is what you are saying?
'Celebrate EU Code Week
EU Code Week, being celebrated in October, is an initiative by the European Commission that aims to bring coding and digital literacy to everybody in a fun and engaging way. Apple believes coding is a essential skill for the future. Join us in celebrating EU code week by learning to code with Swift Playgrounds. Swift Playgrounds is a free iPad app that makes learning to code fun and interactive with real Swift code. '
Off topic: Congrats to @Casino_Royale
I would give the EU 4/10. It has done some good things. I have pointed out -- that using your numbers -- Jeremy has voted for the EU 45 per cent of the time.
I suspect -- on the EU -- Jeremy is very close to my position.
The funny thing is that you think -- on the EU -- that Jeremy is close to your position.
And Recidivist thinks -- on the EU -- he is close to Recidivist’s position.
Jeremy has done a magical thing on the EU.
There’s only one suitable name for baby Royale.
Jean, after Jean Monnet and Jean Claude Juncker.
Only 24? men have been above LEO (Apollo 8, 10-17), for very brief trips. NASA's next plan is whatever they're calling the LOP-G this week: the Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway. This will sit in an orbit near the Moon, and it is planned to use this as a staging post for missions to the Moon and other places in the solar system. It many also eventually be permanently manned.
This is a different ethos to Apollo, which was a get-them-there-and-back-quickly mission. The LOP-G might be used to get to the Moon, or to Mars, or to the asteroids. It might become a permanently-manned presence in 'deep' space, which mankind has never had before. Hopefully it will lead us to know more about how to live, survive and thrive in deep space. Apollo only did the 'survive' bit.
It's also a *really* controversial project.
Apollo proved to be a dead-end. What many in NASA, and others such as Musk and Bezos want, is a sustainable presence in deep space, whether planetary or orbital. Having near-permanent manned presence in deep space has never been done.
TL;DR: what they said was correct IMO.
Ken Clarke.
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1052859172948201472?s=21
We used to intercept Eastern Airways flights from Humberside in Tucanos (similar to a PC-9 but shitter) from Linton. Fine sport.
https://twitter.com/ZanettiCartoons/status/1051985459058860032
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-eu-take-tentative-steps-toward-a-backstop-irish-border-compromise-theresa-may/
Note this bit:
The EU27 diplomat who spoke to POLITICO on condition of anonymity saw another more fundamental reason for optimism — that if the EU accepts the principle of a U.K.-wide customs arrangement in the Withdrawal Agreement, why shouldn’t it supersede the backstop itself?
Well quite. Some of us have been pointing this out all along. The backstop is a complete nonsense, and what is needed is some fudge so that it can be ditched without the EU losing face. Looks like they are trying to make the fudge.
But it goes back to something somebody said the other day, they aimed it at one person (or one group in particular) but didn't realise it was just as true of their own side, people believe what they want to believe. Facts are easily interpreted to mean what people want them to mean.
Also yes you are right that I would have Corbyn down as close(ish) to my position, although for different reasons to me and more eurosceptic.
I want to fly BA from St Lucia to London in December, one way. It is £100 cheaper to book a return from London and just write off the outward leg, than to book a single on the same flight St L->London.. Is there any rule which says if you don't do the outward journey you forfeit the right to do the return?
Given the vote was ill-defined, but included reducing immigration, that has happened. This outcome has been delivered. The result of the referendum has been implemented.
£350m for the NHS. Implemented (if Hammond can get the tax rise through the budget)
Or do you want to wait for Airbus and JLR to close their UK plants before declaring that Brexit has been implemented?
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1052806045083607040
One can argue the backstop applies to N Ireland only (EU, Irish position)
One can argue it is a whole UK backstop (DUP, UK Gov't)
One can't simply wish it away (Johnson, Davis)
In theory at least you can't even use only the outward.
The nonsense about decamping to Strasbourg once a month at great expense is the first thing I would wish to scrap.
But I think that's my point: I might be only 7/10 on the EU, and wish that there were multiple such organisations in Europe to force them to compete and give us a choice of regional trade groupings. But Brexit is a way of taking all our pent-up frustrations with the EU, its policies and key players, and taking them all out on ourselves at great cost.
Amazing that these credulous cretins are part of the same species that actually did manage to land a man on the moon.
You may be right about defining what exactly is meant by leave, but we have not left under any definition. We have not fully implemented the vote under any definition. As for manifesto pledges, these are broken habitually so I'm afraid that argument falls flat. Remain told their fair share of lies. Politicians lie.
There are many legitimate concerns about Brexit, and there is an argument that a second referendum is the best course of action despite being undemocratic, but pretending that not implementing the referendum result is somehow democratic does your argument more harm than good.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/business/05road.html
'I Didn’t Hate the English — Until Now'
https://tinyurl.com/ybogo33a
I'd shrink from the word hate, but then I haven't had her or the wider Irish experiences. Can't disagree with much of what she writes.
‘Nuff said!
Whatever the outcome is, it is Democracy in action even if you do not like the answer.
However, this window closes on exit day, and there's no sign the British government wants to go through it.
The cost to our government of offering planes that are actually safe to fly free insurance would be vastly less than if all flights were grounded.
But the counter argument is that a no deal Brexit will be so damaging- threatening the very survival of the UK and massive and continuing economic and political damage - that avoiding such a disaster must take priority and theoretical arguments about mandates must be put aside.
Since Leave was never defined, I could argue that we have in fact delivered the things most people cared about most strongly.
You may disagree, but that is the nature of argument...
OK, some of it’s ‘humorous’ but they are the result of conditioning.
Partly, the UK never properly engaged with the EU, so it never properly learnt how to use the cumbersome levers of power in the EU. The lack of engagement was born of ambivalence.
Then, because we could never change anything, the frustrations with the EU grew greater and greater.
Ultimately, the EU is all or nothing. You have to join everything, fully engage with everything, understand how everything works, and how you can (marginally) influence things.
Time to move to Norway as the only option at present and then take it from there
In my extended family can be found the son of an Irish itinerant asphalter. The son holds a significant job in the NHS, for which he needed at least one degree. A brother is a lawyer. There was a third brother who pursued a criminal life and 'died of drugs’.
So the backstop is basically ‘we don’t trust you’, right?
My view is that the EU is tacitly a EZ club, and will (rightly) become more so post Brexit. People lament the fact that if we ever do rejoin (or resile from the referendum result) we'll lose our rebates and opt outs, and may even be required to join the Euro. That's something to be welcomed (if you're that way inclined). As you say, if we're in, we need to be all the way in, with wholehearted commitment to The Project.