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  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    What about Independent MPs?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Floater said:

    Jezza and his crew will never love you Owen

    They remember what you said even if you are tying to forget
    He is also gay - and IS will remember that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    edited August 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    On topic, I can’t see Frank Field crossing the floor but i can see a lot of soft collaboration with the Conservatives now.

    He has nothing to lose.

    I expect he'll collaborate on european issues, but there's no way on God's green earth he'll vote with the Gov't on say universal credit.
    I’d say that’s unlikely. But he might abstain or absent himself.

    He’ll want to damage Corbyn and the far Left first and foremost.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Lol. Farage. What an absolute helmet.
  • I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    Why do you use the phrase Kali Ma? You're the only person I've ever seen use it like that.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    Flint is a remainer. It is only post Brexit referendum that she has turned.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    I'm not sure that covers what's happening here either. There is wiggle room if it is held that an Independent Labour MP is not ipso facto a Labour MP and therefore that doesn't apply to them.

    However he may well want to be expelled to make a very damning point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    ydoethur said:

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    I'm not sure that covers what's happening here either. There is wiggle room if it is held that an Independent Labour MP is not ipso facto a Labour MP and therefore that doesn't apply to them.

    However he may well want to be expelled to make a very damning point.
    No need to expel him, just get on with selecting his replacement.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited August 2018
    .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Jamie Oliver has revealed that his restaurant chain was hours from bankruptcy before he rescued it by injecting nearly £13m of his own money into the business.

    The celebrity chef and entrepreneur said he still did not fully understand why Jamie’s Italian ran into financial trouble and came close to collapse in September last year.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/food/2018/aug/30/jamie-oliver-spent-13m-to-save-italian-chain-hours-before-bankruptcy

    Answers on the back of a postcard....

    He blames the minimum wage rise, high business rates, Brexit etc but of course much of it was down to having too many restaurants to meet demand. He has now brought a new M and S exec on board and some restaurants have been shut
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Nick P used to be a member of LFI.

    It is entirely possible to support both Israel and Palestine, indeed that is the very definition of a two state solution.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited August 2018
    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Foxy said:

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Nick P used to be a member of LFI.

    It is entirely possible to support both Israel and Palestine, indeed that is the very definition of a two state solution.
    To quote Tim O'Neill:

    'Never argue with a fanatic.'

    http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-jesus-myth-theory-reponse-to-david.html?m=1
  • Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited August 2018
    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    As Thatcher said about becoming a politician 'If you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything at any time and you would achieve nothing.'

    http://superbcommunication.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Margaret-Thatcher.jpg
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    This story has been briefly mentioned:

    Grenfell Tower: Kensington and Chelsea Council worker admits fraud
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45354033

    I gather however that there is more to it than this. She got this post despite being under investigation for fraud and embezzlement at two other public bodies.

    In which case, whatever idiot gave her a reference could be in very serious trouble as well.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    Nigel Farage’s chance of an honour probably depends on the findings of an investigation on the other side of the Atlantic.
  • Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    Yeah, and I don't see how ceasing to be a member of the PLP means you cease to be a party member. Just that you cease to be a Labour MP.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    The most successful electoral politicians in postwar UK history are Blair, Thatcher and Wilson (Blair the most electorally successful of all) but of those 3 only Thatcher really changed Britain. Attlee and Churchill made a more significant long-term contribution to Britain than Wilson or Blair did too and Attlee won 2 elections and lost 3 and Churchill won 1 and lost 2
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    Yeah, and I don't see how ceasing to be a member of the PLP means you cease to be a party member. Just that you cease to be a Labour MP.
    Reads like a totally pointless tautologous rule. Surely a Labour MP is a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party by definition?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Apologies. I thought you were taking on the mantle of judge and jury.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692
    Foxy said:

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Nick P used to be a member of LFI.

    It is entirely possible to support both Israel and Palestine, indeed that is the very definition of a two state solution.
    My MP is in LFI and Lab Friends of Palestine

    Not sure who he supported when Israel slaughtered the Palestinians at the border

    I do know from LFI Tweets they were on the slaughterers side though
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,904
    edited August 2018

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Says someone who appears to have fallen victim to the Black Sleep of the Kali Ma (@philip_thompson just like the Thugee crazies in Indiana Jones, the Corbyn Ultras appear to have imbibed bonkers juice)

    I support a Two State Solution - as does the Labour Party according to our policy. I want a just solution and a viable state for the Palestinians. I also want a peaceful secure Israel. Neither of those things will happen whilst we have the disgrace that is the Netanyahu government. Nor will they happen whilst Hamas continues to shell Israeli towns like Sderot.

    Gaza specifically needs an international solution, LFI is calling for exactly that through the creation of a new port. Nor is the "prison camp" just an Israeli issue - the Egyptian border is also closed yet I don't hear screaming denunciations about them, only Israel.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    HYUFD said:

    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    The most successful electoral politicians in postwar UK history are Blair, Thatcher and Wilson (Blair the most electorally successful of all) but of those 3 only Thatcher really changed Britain. Attlee and Churchill made a more significant long-term contribution to Britain than Wilson or Blair did too and Attlee won 2 elections and lost 3 and Churchill won 1 and lost 2
    Blair spent his electoral capital on Iraq. He probably chose the wrong issue, although he clearly thought he was doing the right thing... (i think not enough recognition is given to what i think are the reasons (right or wrong) he did it - ie. his fear about the fracturing of the Western Alliance). Arguably his fear was justified, but the course he took to avoiding it was a gross misjudgement. Wilson didn't really do anything, but probably never had much capital to spend.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    But at the moment he is not forming any such group.
    And they wouldn't be able to form a politcal party with that name because they have no rights to use the word "Labour" for electoral purposes, it being already registered by another party.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    There are very few Labour leaders or constituency members or work colleagues he hasn't fallen out with. Even the fragrant Harriet Harman who I understand is charming to her fingertips.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,904
    edited August 2018
    Will be funny if Field simply rocks up with a letter from his solicitor inviting Jennie Formby to do one. Before he quit the party Woodcock had her bang to rights over flagrant breech of the new data protection laws.

    Perhaps embarrassing the party by expecting it to follow its own rules is bringing the party into disrepute?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    The unwritten rule is that people, or at least some people, have to like you and you have to pretend not to want it.

    Farage fails both tests. He has a colossal ego and has no class, and therefore no chance.

    I don’t want to go all williamglenn but I think he’d reverse Brexit wholesale if it gave him the chance to bask solely in the spotlight.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Nick P used to be a member of LFI.

    It is entirely possible to support both Israel and Palestine, indeed that is the very definition of a two state solution.
    My MP is in LFI and Lab Friends of Palestine

    Not sure who he supported when Israel slaughtered the Palestinians at the border

    I do know from LFI Tweets they were on the slaughterers side though
    It is LFI policy to support an independent Palestinian state, as part of a 2 state solution.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Get in!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    But at the moment he is not forming any such group.
    And they wouldn't be able to form a politcal party with that name because they have no rights to use the word "Labour" for electoral purposes, it being already registered by another party.
    Would Captain Sensible have a dog in the naming fight?
  • https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/tories-ukip-britain-entryism

    "Tories courted the Ukippers: now they’ll be consumed by them". Well there's hope...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    The most successful electoral politicians in postwar UK history are Blair, Thatcher and Wilson (Blair the most electorally successful of all) but of those 3 only Thatcher really changed Britain. Attlee and Churchill made a more significant long-term contribution to Britain than Wilson or Blair did too and Attlee won 2 elections and lost 3 and Churchill won 1 and lost 2
    Wilson kept us out of Vietnam, and thus avoided what would probably have been a huge mistake (although in the parallel universe one wonders how involvement might have changed future decisions including Iraq). He also presided over and enabled a lot of social liberalisation, even though much of the relevant legislation came from others. During Wilson's terms Britain departed from the narrow-mindedness of fhe 1950s of which UKIP and Daily Mail readers are so fond.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Thing is BJO as those terrorists were rampaging up the beach at the hotel you were at, who would you have preferred to be there to face them? LFI’s friends or Jeremy Corbyn’s friends?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I don't like Frank Field. I think that as a politician he actually has a lot of similarities with Corbyn - he virtue signals by taking stances that put him at odds with received wisdom by not regarding the ultimate consequences of his ostensibly principled position.I don't think he's decent for the same reason Corbyn isn't - he loves scapegoating people for the sake of maintaining his pride as an impervious oracle. He has been right, but more often wrong.

    But he is totally right on this. It is now impossible for Labour MPs to deal with the hate in the party - when the head of disputes is describing anything negative on Corbyn and anti-Semitism as a "false allegation" where do you go if you won't drink the Kool-Aid?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
    Most probably someone else would have allowed their arm to be twisted, to get the required number of signatures. Without hindsight it wasn't seen as a big deal.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    I would extend that to all MPs who take freebies from foreign governments. I'd start with friends of the Seychelles followed by Friends of the Maldives..........
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    I think May's dancing has definitely improved between South Africa and Nairobi !
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:

    alex. said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    No politician can be defined simply by electoral success. The ultimate test is what they do as a consequence of that success. What they spend their political capital on. I would even go so far as to say that no politician who actually achieves office (which of course excludes Farage, who has managed to achieve a measure of electoral success without responsibility) can be considered a real achiever unless they end up unpopular.

    The most successful electoral politicians in postwar UK history are Blair, Thatcher and Wilson (Blair the most electorally successful of all) but of those 3 only Thatcher really changed Britain. Attlee and Churchill made a more significant long-term contribution to Britain than Wilson or Blair did too and Attlee won 2 elections and lost 3 and Churchill won 1 and lost 2
    Blair spent his electoral capital on Iraq. He probably chose the wrong issue, although he clearly thought he was doing the right thing... (i think not enough recognition is given to what i think are the reasons (right or wrong) he did it - ie. his fear about the fracturing of the Western Alliance). Arguably his fear was justified, but the course he took to avoiding it was a gross misjudgement. Wilson didn't really do anything, but probably never had much capital to spend.
    Don't get me wrong, I would still put Blair above average as PM, he did introduce the minimum wage and devolution and civil partnerships and FOI, had a reasonably solid economy at least in his first term and had success in Kosovo but even without Iraq he would never have been a great PM in the Attlee and Thatcher and Churchill mould and to be fair to him Iraq now is looking rather better than Iraq 3 years ago and largely ISIS free.


    Most of the key social reforms in the Wilson era were down to Jenkins and Williams but he did introduce the OU and keep us out of Vietnam
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Will be funny if Field simply rocks up with a letter from his solicitor inviting Jennie Formby to do one. Before he quit the party Woodcock had her bang to rights over flagrant breech of the new data protection laws.

    Perhaps embarrassing the party by expecting it to follow its own rules is bringing the party into disrepute?

    Formby in many ways epitomises all the worst excesses of Corbynism. Her appointment was a fairly blatant act of nepotism based on a stitch-up, she is and has been for many years herself guilty of anti-Semitic statements, she is rude and arrogant and above all she is grossly incompetent, as the pounding Mischon de Reya gave her shows.

    If Field were to somehow take her down with him he would definitely be doing Labour a huge service.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Danny565 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    That isn't what the Labour Party rules say.
    Frank Field strikes me as the sort of person who just might have read the rules!
    He hasn't:

    A member of the Party who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party, or supports any candidate who stands against an official Labour candidate, or publicly declares their intent to stand against a Labour candidate, shall automatically be Ineligible to be or remain a Party member,
    He has so far committed to none of those things. He hasn't committed to stand again yet. And he can't formally stand against a Labour candidate until one has been selected to stand against him and his nomination has gone in. He can't announce his intention to stand against a Labour candidate if he simply announces that following eve of poll negotiations he expects no Labour candidate to be nominated to stand against him.

    I have no doubt that his membership will be suspended forthwith, but suspension is different from expulsion. Furthermore the specific grounds for suspension will have to be stated, and the more general they are the more they will be capable of being challenged in a court of law, such that this one could run and run if Frank Field chose.
    I suspect that forming an Independent Labour group will be considered an external political organisation. Of course so is Momentum, but apparently that doesn't count...
    He hasn't formed a group. He will be sitting as a Labour MP, but without accepting the party whip. That's where the definition fails. It doesn't cover what he's done. He has been very clever in that way.
    That's not the part of the rulebook Field falls foul of

    https://twitter.com/jstolliday/status/1035239801484656641
    Yeah, and I don't see how ceasing to be a member of the PLP means you cease to be a party member. Just that you cease to be a Labour MP.
    Interesting. Now if it said "All Labour Party members who are elected as an MP shall be members of the Parliamentary Labour Party...." then they would have Frank Field bang to rights. But it doesn't.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    It's well known in politics that there is little credit for being right but a lot of downside if you are seen to be wrong. Whatever ones personal view of Brexit it would be remarkable if nothing went wrong and therefore the political risks are very clear.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
    Most probably someone else would have allowed their arm to be twisted, to get the required number of signatures. Without hindsight it wasn't seen as a big deal.
    He got his final nomination on the deadline day as I recall. One less and he wouldn't have been a candidate.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
    Most probably someone else would have allowed their arm to be twisted, to get the required number of signatures. Without hindsight it wasn't seen as a big deal.
    As I recall, neither the bookies nor anyone on here thought it was a big deal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
    Most probably someone else would have allowed their arm to be twisted, to get the required number of signatures. Without hindsight it wasn't seen as a big deal.
    He got his final nomination on the deadline day as I recall. One less and he wouldn't have been a candidate.
    For sure, but the looming deadline and the need for just one more signature are the reasons why it would have been easy to get someone else.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Have you thought about Friends of the Rohingyas? Or do you prefer 5 star hotels to unsanitary camps?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    It's well known in politics that there is little credit for being right but a lot of downside if you are seen to be wrong. Whatever ones personal view of Brexit it would be remarkable if nothing went wrong and therefore the political risks are very clear.
    What goes wrong depends on your perspective, for diehard Remainers even if the economy does better than expected post Brexit the mere act of divorcing ourself from the EU will be a disaster
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I don't like Frank Field. I think that as a politician he actually has a lot of similarities with Corbyn - he virtue signals by taking stances that put him at odds with received wisdom by not regarding the ultimate consequences of his ostensibly principled position.I don't think he's decent for the same reason Corbyn isn't - he loves scapegoating people for the sake of maintaining his pride as an impervious oracle. He has been right, but more often wrong.

    But he is totally right on this. It is now impossible for Labour MPs to deal with the hate in the party - when the head of disputes is describing anything negative on Corbyn and anti-Semitism as a "false allegation" where do you go if you won't drink the Kool-Aid?
    Corbyn is going to be forced in to switching his position on Brexit. The mob lynching of Field was all about Brexit. Corbyn should be worried, because his personal views on the EU are pretty similar to Fields.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    It's well known in politics that there is little credit for being right but a lot of downside if you are seen to be wrong. Whatever ones personal view of Brexit it would be remarkable if nothing went wrong and therefore the political risks are very clear.
    Doesn't it also rather depend on how the rump EU is getting on?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
    What if BINO does neither?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
    The way you use the term "leavers" doesn't equate to "people who voted leave", however. Dedicated anti-EU folks may well take your line (although my guess is that many will prefer to remain disgruntled about ways in which Brexit hasn't gone far enough) - but in between the dedicated leavers and dedicated remainers sits a whole swathe of people - probably the majority - who will judge on far more pragmatic criteria than yours.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,692

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Says someone who appears to have fallen victim to the Black Sleep of the Kali Ma (@philip_thompson just like the Thugee crazies in Indiana Jones, the Corbyn Ultras appear to have imbibed bonkers juice)

    I support a Two State Solution - as does the Labour Party according to our policy. I want a just solution and a viable state for the Palestinians. I also want a peaceful secure Israel. Neither of those things will happen whilst we have the disgrace that is the Netanyahu government. Nor will they happen whilst Hamas continues to shell Israeli towns like Sderot.

    Gaza specifically needs an international solution, LFI is calling for exactly that through the creation of a new port. Nor is the "prison camp" just an Israeli issue - the Egyptian border is also closed yet I don't hear screaming denunciations about them, only Israel.
    LFI is nothing but a well-funded entryist front solely intended to promote the interests of a violent, expansionist and aggressive foreign state IMO.

    Joan Ryan was caught by an undercover Al Jazeera investigation fabricating allegations of anti-Semitism against a party member who questioned Israel’s settlements in the occupied West Bank.

    LFI seem to see their role as amplifying the worst extreme right-wing Zionist propaganda by the Likud government and blaming innocents for their own slaughter by the IDF
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
    What's your record like as a soothsayer?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    ydoethur said:

    Will be funny if Field simply rocks up with a letter from his solicitor inviting Jennie Formby to do one. Before he quit the party Woodcock had her bang to rights over flagrant breech of the new data protection laws.

    Perhaps embarrassing the party by expecting it to follow its own rules is bringing the party into disrepute?

    Formby in many ways epitomises all the worst excesses of Corbynism. Her appointment was a fairly blatant act of nepotism based on a stitch-up, she is and has been for many years herself guilty of anti-Semitic statements, she is rude and arrogant and above all she is grossly incompetent, as the pounding Mischon de Reya gave her shows.

    If Field were to somehow take her down with him he would definitely be doing Labour a huge service.
    Those letters from Mishcon were brilliant. There’s certainly the opportunity for Field to keep the story running as Parliament returns next week, if Formby and the NEC screw up over his resignation.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/tories-ukip-britain-entryism

    "Tories courted the Ukippers: now they’ll be consumed by them". Well there's hope...

    Owen Jones might wish to reflect during his apparent Schadenfreude that if the Tories do take the direct that he predicts, the resulting spate of defections from the political right would be enough to give critical mass to a new centre party and encourage simultaneous large scale defections from the left, reducing Corbyn's Labour to the supporting cast.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that their is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I supported Liz Kendall. Was Field "decent" when he nominated the well known friend of Hamas and IRA?

    In his words today he said that at the time he wanted a left wing candidate but Corbyn's recent lack of action over the anti semitism and the personal abuse he was receiving over his calling out of it made his decision to resign the whip. And of course he has always been decent
    Without Field's nomination Jezza would not be LOTO.
    Most probably someone else would have allowed their arm to be twisted, to get the required number of signatures. Without hindsight it wasn't seen as a big deal.
    He got his final nomination on the deadline day as I recall. One less and he wouldn't have been a candidate.
    I think everyone who was on PB that day got something on Corbyn at 100/1. My highest odds ever for a winning bet.
  • nielh said:

    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I don't like Frank Field. I think that as a politician he actually has a lot of similarities with Corbyn - he virtue signals by taking stances that put him at odds with received wisdom by not regarding the ultimate consequences of his ostensibly principled position.I don't think he's decent for the same reason Corbyn isn't - he loves scapegoating people for the sake of maintaining his pride as an impervious oracle. He has been right, but more often wrong.

    But he is totally right on this. It is now impossible for Labour MPs to deal with the hate in the party - when the head of disputes is describing anything negative on Corbyn and anti-Semitism as a "false allegation" where do you go if you won't drink the Kool-Aid?
    Corbyn is going to be forced in to switching his position on Brexit. The mob lynching of Field was all about Brexit. Corbyn should be worried, because his personal views on the EU are pretty similar to Fields.
    When has he ever been forced to change his mind
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2018

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Sometimes you have to stop sitting on the fence and take sides. And the way to defeat antisemitism is by providing solifarity with its victims. And the way to stop batshit crazyism is to do a Gordon Brown and do a deal with Lord Mandymort. If its good enough for Tom Watson its good enough for me.

    To be clear, if the givernment collapses and we have yet another General Election I'm out seeking a Corbyn win. Beggars can't be choosers. But i can aspire for better than Jezbollah and his Kali Ma loons
    You hate Palestinians now,

    LFI is a disgrace IMO.

    Hopefully all LFI MPs will have been deselected by next GE
    Says someone who appears to have fallen victim to the Black Sleep of the Kali Ma (@philip_thompson just like the Thugee crazies in Indiana Jones, the Corbyn Ultras appear to have imbibed bonkers juice)

    I support a Two State Solution - as does the Labour Party according to our policy. I want a just solution and a viable state for the Palestinians. I also want a peaceful secure Israel. Neither of those things will happen whilst we have the disgrace that is the Netanyahu government. Nor will they happen whilst Hamas continues to shell Israeli towns like Sderot.

    Gaza specifically needs an international solution, LFI is calling for exactly that through the creation of a new port. Nor is the "prison camp" just an Israeli issue - the Egyptian border is also closed yet I don't hear screaming denunciations about them, only Israel.
    LFI is nothing but a well-funded entryist front solely intended to promote the interests of a violent, expansionist and aggressive foreign state IMO.

    Joan Ryan was caught by an undercover Al Jazeera investigation fabricating allegations of anti-Semitism against a party member who questioned Israel’s settlements in the occupied West Bank.

    LFI seem to see their role as amplifying the worst extreme right-wing Zionist propaganda by the Likud government and blaming innocents for their own slaughter by the IDF
    Yep Likud is dreadful. All those terrorist attacks in Tunisia.

    You certainly know who your friends are, eh, BJO.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
    What's your record like as a soothsayer?
    Not bad!

    I make a decent profit on my political bets, though lose on my football bets apart from when I backed Leicester City for the tiltle at 2000/1.

    I do well in most PB Prediction contests and have won on the London Elections one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    While I am finding BJO's ever more ridiculous defences of Corbyn irritating, I have to say I think some posters are going too far in effectively taunting him over the fact he was unlucky enough to be present during a terrorist attack. As we all know from the posts he made at the time, it was terrifying for him and a number of people were killed - he could easily have been one.

    Might I suggest we would all get further if we stuck to the issues?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    nielh said:

    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I don't like Frank Field.

    But he is totally right on this. It is now impossible for Labour MPs to deal with the hate in the party - when the head of disputes is describing anything negative on Corbyn and anti-Semitism as a "false allegation" where do you go if you won't drink the Kool-Aid?
    Corbyn is going to be forced in to switching his position on Brexit. The mob lynching of Field was all about Brexit. Corbyn should be worried, because his personal views on the EU are pretty similar to Fields.
    When has he ever been forced to change his mind
    He backed Remain in the referendum, albeit half heartedly.

    He cares more for Palestine than Brexit.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
    What's your record like as a soothsayer?
    Not bad!

    I make a decent profit on my political bets, though lose on my football bets apart from when I backed Leicester City for the tiltle at 2000/1.

    I do well in most PB Prediction contests and have won on the London Elections one.
    Pleased for you and to see that you acknowledge the activity as soothsaying
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    TOPPING said:

    I have decided to take firm action to be Tough on Corbyn and Tough on the Causes of Corbyn

    1. I have joined Progress
    2. I have joined Labour Friends of Israel
    Get in!
    It's amazing how far Progress have fallen in 3 years: from being the all powerful elite, to a very minor protest group with an exaggerated sense of self importance.

    I don't see any way for the moderates to get the party back. They are too much of a numerical minority, even taking account of the fact that they punch far above their weight in terms of influence within the party apparatus. There is now essentially no limits to the power of the hard left, the best hope is that they mess it up somehow.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    It's well known in politics that there is little credit for being right but a lot of downside if you are seen to be wrong. Whatever ones personal view of Brexit it would be remarkable if nothing went wrong and therefore the political risks are very clear.
    Doesn't it also rather depend on how the rump EU is getting on?
    But you're jumping to the end, there, and judgements about relative economic performance. Which will be important, but probably not that important politically, given the timescale. Remember Black Wednesday, which hit Tory economic credibility for the best part of a decade thereafter, despite turning out if anything to be economically positive. What matters in the short term is how competently the implementation goes, whether any of the "chaos warnings" actually comes to pass, and a whole load of bread an butter stuff like whether pet passports remain valid, whether tourists get reciprocal healthcare, queues at airports, the price of food, whether the NHS gets loads of money, etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
    What if BINO does neither?
    Even Chequers technically ends free movement and leaves the single market and customs union
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    nielh said:

    Corbyn is going to be forced in to switching his position on Brexit. The mob lynching of Field was all about Brexit. Corbyn should be worried, because his personal views on the EU are pretty similar to Fields.

    When has he ever been forced to change his mind
    He did on welfare cuts - opposed them during the leadership election, supported them in the general election, because it was more important to abolish university tuition fees.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    This website would never break an embargo, would it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
    The way you use the term "leavers" doesn't equate to "people who voted leave", however. Dedicated anti-EU folks may well take your line (although my guess is that many will prefer to remain disgruntled about ways in which Brexit hasn't gone far enough) - but in between the dedicated leavers and dedicated remainers sits a whole swathe of people - probably the majority - who will judge on far more pragmatic criteria than yours.
    I voted Remain but respect democracy and Leave voters voted to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration according to every poll
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    tlg86 said:

    This website would never break an embargo, would it?
    Why on earth would Field want a midnight embargo anyway?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    Unless Brexit delivers better lives for the poor of the old coalfields, it will be judged a failure by the voters.

    Nailed on IMO.
    Most Leavers will judge Brexit a success if it regains sovereignty and reduces immigration even if you won't
    The way you use the term "leavers" doesn't equate to "people who voted leave", however. Dedicated anti-EU folks may well take your line (although my guess is that many will prefer to remain disgruntled about ways in which Brexit hasn't gone far enough) - but in between the dedicated leavers and dedicated remainers sits a whole swathe of people - probably the majority - who will judge on far more pragmatic criteria than yours.
    I voted Remain but respect democracy and Leave voters voted to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration according to every poll
    By generalising so glibly about the desires and intentions of millions of people you just make yourself look foolish; you can't treat Leave voters as a bloc like that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
    What's your record like as a soothsayer?
    Not bad!

    I make a decent profit on my political bets, though lose on my football bets apart from when I backed Leicester City for the tiltle at 2000/1.

    I do well in most PB Prediction contests and have won on the London Elections one.
    Amazing. Somebody thought Leicester had a 0.05% chance of winning the Premiership. Must have been an optimist calculating the odds! :smiley:

    More seriously, if you don't mind my asking, how much did they let you bet?
  • ydoethur said:

    While I am finding BJO's ever more ridiculous defences of Corbyn irritating, I have to say I think some posters are going too far in effectively taunting him over the fact he was unlucky enough to be present during a terrorist attack. As we all know from the posts he made at the time, it was terrifying for him and a number of people were killed - he could easily have been one.

    Might I suggest we would all get further if we stuck to the issues?

    +1
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Guido says they'd already run the story before they got the embargoed press release
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Pulpstar said:

    I think May's dancing has definitely improved between South Africa and Nairobi !

    She certainly seems a lot looser in the hips! Do you think she's been having coaching? ;)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45363410
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    tlg86 said:

    This website would never break an embargo, would it?
    Only if TSE received a poll showing 50% support for AV. He might not be able to hold himself in until midnight...
  • Foxy said:

    nielh said:

    MJW said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Field's resignation is all about his eurosceptism tbh.

    I reckon Stringer and Hoey will probably stand down next election, which means I'll be living in the remaining heart of Labour eurosceptism between Mann and Flint's constituencies !

    It has nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with Corbyn and anti semitism together with serious abuse and bullying, both national and local, going back 18 months
    Considering nearly all the incidents dredged up by the press concerning Corbyn occurred before Field nominated him for leader, I think that unlikely. The two shared the Labour backbenches for decades and knew each other well.
    I listened to him live on Sky and it is exactly that. He said he endorsed Corbyn for leadership but did not see the anti semiism and the bullying coming and it is in both his constituency and the party directly from the Corbynistas.
    So he sat on the backbenches with Jezza for literally decades, without noticing, yet knew Jezzas politics well enough to endorse and nominate Corbyn in 2015.

    Doesn't sound plausible to me. Sounds like ex post facto justification.
    You really cannot accept that one of labour's most decent politicians over years has been revolted by Corbyn's handling of anti racism and that there is a cabal around him acting in a vile and abusive way to anyone who dares to stand up for true labour values.

    And I thought you were a Lib Dem not a Corbynista
    I don't like Frank Field.

    But he is totally right on this. It is now impossible for Labour MPs to deal with the hate in the party - when the head of disputes is describing anything negative on Corbyn and anti-Semitism as a "false allegation" where do you go if you won't drink the Kool-Aid?
    Corbyn is going to be forced in to switching his position on Brexit. The mob lynching of Field was all about Brexit. Corbyn should be worried, because his personal views on the EU are pretty similar to Fields.
    When has he ever been forced to change his mind
    He backed Remain in the referendum, albeit half heartedly.

    He cares more for Palestine than Brexit.
    Did he - you could have fooled me
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    "understand" or "acknowledge"?
    I understand and acknowledge, but that doesn't mean that the voters will like it, and they will blame the government.

    Voters are notoriously fickle and unwilling to accept the blame themselves.
    What's your record like as a soothsayer?
    Not bad!

    I make a decent profit on my political bets, though lose on my football bets apart from when I backed Leicester City for the tiltle at 2000/1.

    I do well in most PB Prediction contests and have won on the London Elections one.
    Amazing. Somebody thought Leicester had a 0.05% chance of winning the Premiership. Must have been an optimist calculating the odds! :smiley:

    More seriously, if you don't mind my asking, how much did they let you bet?
    I think the 2000-1 odds were available some way into the season, astonishingly. In many ways a far more ridiculous price than the original 5000-1.
  • US President Donald Trump is waging a war of words with legendary Watergate reporter Carl Bernstein over a story about his ex-lawyer Michael Cohen.
    On Wednesday, the president called Mr Bernstein a "sloppy" and "degenerate fool" who invented stories.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    US President Donald Trump is waging a war of words with legendary Watergate reporter Carl Bernstein over a story about his ex-lawyer Michael Cohen.
    On Wednesday, the president called Mr Bernstein a "sloppy" and "degenerate fool" who invented stories.

    I Felt that post was well up to the Mark for Trump.
  • Donald Trump has told aides he wants to impose tariffs on $200bn more in Chinese imports next week, Bloomberg News has reported.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:



    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    I imagine someone has already made this point, but Farage and Field have similarities. I disagree with them both, but I do have some respect for their positions.

    To the very limited extent I was aware of Corbyn prior to his leadership bid I don't think I'd have ever said that about him.

    Farage should be Sir Nigel. He's done extraordinary things. Lord Farage if Brexit proves a success I guess. He is the most important politician since Maggie. Just edges Blair in my view.

    If however Brexit turns out to be a massive error, can we tar and feather him instead?
    How long before a judgment is made? Who makes the judgment and on what basis?
    I suspect that we will see retribution on the Brexiteers at the next GE. I expect the tarring and feathering to be metaphoric rather than literal.
    Spoken like a true liberal elite upper middle class Remainer who still does not understand why they lost the referendum
    It's well known in politics that there is little credit for being right but a lot of downside if you are seen to be wrong. Whatever ones personal view of Brexit it would be remarkable if nothing went wrong and therefore the political risks are very clear.
    Doesn't it also rather depend on how the rump EU is getting on?
    But you're jumping to the end, there, and judgements about relative economic performance. Which will be important, but probably not that important politically, given the timescale. Remember Black Wednesday, which hit Tory economic credibility for the best part of a decade thereafter, despite turning out if anything to be economically positive. What matters in the short term is how competently the implementation goes, whether any of the "chaos warnings" actually comes to pass, and a whole load of bread an butter stuff like whether pet passports remain valid, whether tourists get reciprocal healthcare, queues at airports, the price of food, whether the NHS gets loads of money, etc.
    I'm jumping nowhere unlike some. "Getting on" embraces whatever anyone wants it to embrace and, judging by present media reporting, economically we're in the shit already 'cos of Brexit, but no one's manning the barricades.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    alex. said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Not bad!

    I make a decent profit on my political bets, though lose on my football bets apart from when I backed Leicester City for the tiltle at 2000/1.

    I do well in most PB Prediction contests and have won on the London Elections one.

    Amazing. Somebody thought Leicester had a 0.05% chance of winning the Premiership. Must have been an optimist calculating the odds! :smiley:

    More seriously, if you don't mind my asking, how much did they let you bet?
    I think the 2000-1 odds were available some way into the season, astonishingly. In many ways a far more ridiculous price than the original 5000-1.
    5000-1 sounds more like the odds I would have offered at the start of the season.
This discussion has been closed.