@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Surely the civil servants predictions were not lies. They may well be fairly described as wildly innaccurate and biased, but lies cannot be told about future events because the future is unknown.
It's that kind of smartarsery - differentiating between dishonesty and lying - that makes me sick.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Surely the civil servants predictions were not lies. They may well be fairly described as wildly innaccurate and biased, but lies cannot be told about future events because the future is unknown.
It's that kind of smartarsery - differentiating between dishonesty and lying - that makes me sick.
I objected to Project Fear at the time on here and how the campaign was far too negative, but it is simply not possible to lie.
For example we could each make predictions of what would happen with a No Deal Brexit, or following a Remain win in a #Peoplesvote. They are quite likely to be incorrect, but they would not be lies.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
Oh I don’t deny it was used and was incorrect in its claims and there was something nasty in its approach. No idea how widespread it was but quite prepared to accept what you say about it being used widely.
In the lead up to the referendum I was badly ill with bronchitis and asthma, spent much of my time in the garden (and the Lakes) and eventually fled to Italy to recuperate about a week before the vote. I found the whole campaign quite dispiriting but did enjoy writing my first PB thread headers about it.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Even the lowliest legal assistant, the dumbest insurance lawyer knows that exaggeration undermines a claim.
And destroys your credibility.
So you never saw the poster? Try that line and you really will destroy your credibility.
If the poster you refer to is the one with the line of immigrants I associate that with Farage and condemned it at the time as I utterly condemn Farage.
@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Surely the civil servants predictions were not lies. They may well be fairly described as wildly innaccurate and biased, but lies cannot be told about future events because the future is unknown.
It's that kind of smartarsery - differentiating between dishonesty and lying - that makes me sick.
I objected to Project Fear at the time on here and how the campaign was far too negative, but it is simply not possible to lie.
For example we could each make predictions of what would happen with a No Deal Brexit, or following a Remain win in a #Peoplesvote. They are quite likely to be incorrect, but they would not be lies.
There is a difference between a pessimistic prediction made in good faith that turns out to be inaccurate and creating a so-called prediction to fit your existing narrative.
As a Remainer I have no problem in calling the latter lies and identifying that with elements of the Remain campaign - and yet I still feel that the Leave campaign was more dishonest.
I have noticed on the Daily Telegraph website, Boris Johnson has published some more tripe equating Greece and its membership of the Euro to the UK's relationship with the EU. I have only read a few lines as I don't have access to the full story.
How can a former Foreign Secretary be so lacking in judgement or understanding confuse the UK's current membership of the EU with a country and a currency we are not a member? The UK's EU membership and the monetary policy of Greece have nothing in common.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
1. Oxford Simon. Wes Streeting and others (myself) want a Labour government. Yes Corbyn has unsavoury friends. But the alternative is a dogwhistle racist Tory government with interesting friends. 2. Awful as the latest shooting in America is, that is the society that Americans vote for. We may find their gun culture and mass shootings distasteful but they keep voting for politicians who maintain it so they must have a different perspective. 3. We do have to park the personal abuse. Lets not have political betting go the way that Facebook has gone for the Labour Party... 4. Of course they want to persecute people making false anti-semitism claims (all of them) - I read that rich Jews across the globe are pulling the strings to drive their own shadowy adventire. What, you think thats antisemitic? Yiu must be a BLAIRITE then...
B&Q in trouble? Homebase is, but I thought B&Q was ok.
Seems they are struggling. I was in the Landudno store the other day and there were more staff than customers. They are suffering from the same problems as Homebase but I hope they survive
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
I have noticed on the Daily Telegraph website, Boris Johnson has published some more tripe equating Greece and its membership of the Euro to the UK's relationship with the EU. I have only read a few lines as I don't have access to the full story.
How can a former Foreign Secretary be so lacking in judgement or understanding confuse the UK's current membership of the EU with a country and a currency we are not a member? The UK's EU membership and the monetary policy of Greece have nothing in common.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Surely the civil servants predictions were not lies. They may well be fairly described as wildly innaccurate and biased, but lies cannot be told about future events because the future is unknown.
It's that kind of smartarsery - differentiating between dishonesty and lying - that makes me sick.
I objected to Project Fear at the time on here and how the campaign was far too negative, but it is simply not possible to lie.
For example we could each make predictions of what would happen with a No Deal Brexit, or following a Remain win in a #Peoplesvote. They are quite likely to be incorrect, but they would not be lies.
There is a difference between a pessimistic prediction made in good faith that turns out to be inaccurate and creating a so-called prediction to fit your existing narrative.
As a Remainer I have no problem in calling the latter lies and identifying that with elements of the Remain campaign - and yet I still feel that the Leave campaign was more dishonest.
Dishonesty in political campaigning? who could have forecast that?
Political campaigns are full of hyperbole and misrepresentation. PB Tories seem particularly fond of forecasting that PM Corbyn would be like Venezuela run by Nazis for example, While the 24 hours to save the NHS is a Lab favourite.
Leave was simply more successful in tapping into the atavistic fears of Britons.
Its almost as if referendums are not the best way to decide these issues, but having done so, we should acknowledge that we have awoken dark forces in our society. By lancing the boil we have released a lot of foul infective pus. Lancing is only part of the treatment of a boil, it then needs disinfection.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
A good poster. Simple message and easy to understand. Probably why it gets bitter remainers so hot under the collar.
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
I thought it was the other one as well. This one is not misleading as Turkey were making noises to join though recent events have probably put it back
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
This is his conclusion:
Under the Chequers proposals, we are about to make a historic mistake and turn this country into a rules-taker from Brussels, with no say on those rules – not just for industrial goods and agri-foods but across a wide range of economic activity. Look at the humiliation of Greece – an EU member – and ask yourself how the EU will legislate with the UK out of the room, and when we can no longer do anything to protect ourselves from the imposition of those rules. Will the EU act in our interests and the interests of UK jobs and growth, or the interests of the EU?
The answer is clear. It is written in graffiti all over Greece. Why, then, are we proposing to turn the UK, in important respects, into the perpetual punk of Brussels? Chuck Chequers.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
Technical question, but how did you get the image to show? The best I could do was link to a webpage.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
This is his conclusion:
Under the Chequers proposals, we are about to make a historic mistake and turn this country into a rules-taker from Brussels, with no say on those rules – not just for industrial goods and agri-foods but across a wide range of economic activity. Look at the humiliation of Greece – an EU member – and ask yourself how the EU will legislate with the UK out of the room, and when we can no longer do anything to protect ourselves from the imposition of those rules. Will the EU act in our interests and the interests of UK jobs and growth, or the interests of the EU?
The answer is clear. It is written in graffiti all over Greece. Why, then, are we proposing to turn the UK, in important respects, into the perpetual punk of Brussels? Chuck Chequers.
That is a good argument for Remaining or rejoining.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
Technical question, but how did you get the image to show? The best I could do was link to a webpage.
If you click 'reply' and look at my post it will show you what I had to enter to get it to show. You just put the link to the image in an img html tag.
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
Was the image doctored in any way? I believe it was used by the Guardian so unless you think they shouldn't use that image, I don't see why Farage couldn't use it.
Bottom line is, Merkel's stupid policy helped create it.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
This is his conclusion:
Under the Chequers proposals, we are about to make a historic mistake and turn this country into a rules-taker from Brussels, with no say on those rules – not just for industrial goods and agri-foods but across a wide range of economic activity. Look at the humiliation of Greece – an EU member – and ask yourself how the EU will legislate with the UK out of the room, and when we can no longer do anything to protect ourselves from the imposition of those rules. Will the EU act in our interests and the interests of UK jobs and growth, or the interests of the EU?
The answer is clear. It is written in graffiti all over Greece. Why, then, are we proposing to turn the UK, in important respects, into the perpetual punk of Brussels? Chuck Chequers.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Even the lowliest legal assistant, the dumbest insurance lawyer knows that exaggeration undermines a claim.
And destroys your credibility.
So you never saw the poster? Try that line and you really will destroy your credibility.
If it is the red poster that WilliamGlenn has reproduced, then I have never seen it before.
Like cyclefree and DavidL, I never saw any posters during the Referendum in my part of the world.
Who ran the more dishonest campaign, Leavers or Remainers ... well, that is like trying to decide who is the bigger rogue, Trump or Netanyahu ?
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
It is worth remembering that more than 3m immigrants came into the EU in 2016, mainly from the disastrous war in Syria. Some EU countries were erecting fences and under enormous stress. Free movement of those immigrants within the EU was a genuine concern and the background to that poster reflected the reality in several south eastern EU countries.
But these things need to be handled sensitively and Farage is an arse.
"Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice."
It was the professed intent of David Cameron and other UK europhiles to "get Turkey into the EU", and the negotiations for that to happen were underway. The fact he was lying through his teeth, and knew it would never actually happen, simply came back to bite him on his back fat lying europhile arse. What a pity, never mind.
Cameron 2010: 'UK strongly supports Turkey EU membership bid'
Cameron 2016: "British Prime Minister on Sunday said that Turkey joining the EU is not 'remotely on the cards' after Brexit campaigners say the UK will not be able to veto Turkey joining."
And we are told the lying was on the Leave side. As for xenophobia - the objection to the Turks was that they are young, poor and numerous. Disliking or fearing people for being those things is not xenophobia- a word which in practice seems to mean "What are all these horrid toys doing in my pram?" in the current PB idiolect.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
Was the image doctored in any way? I believe it was used by the Guardian so unless you think they shouldn't use that image, I don't see why Farage couldn't use it.
Bottom line is, Merkel's stupid policy helped create it.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. (Edit: I may be wrong on this but if I am, I’m sure someone will correct me.) So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Agreed times a million, Twitter is actually a more pleasant place to debate and argue than PB right now, and it is the ultra Remainers like Meeks and the ultra Leavers like everyone Meeks despises who are doing the damage.
They are actively damaging the site. Shame.
FWIW and in the spirit of ecumenical harmony, I agree with Nick Palmer and this wise threader. Indeed he and I have agreed on this (if nothing else) since the Brexit vote. In the end it will be fudged. It's what European politicians do. And maybe it is for the best. The fudge will please no one, some will hate it, many others will see a chance of nudging the fudge further in their desired direction. Sensible Leavers will think, well, at least we are out, we can work on the details later. Sensible Remainers will think, well, at least we honoured democracy and we didn't do too much damage to the economy, maybe we can re-enter the SM and CU under a new government,
Such is politics. We will endure as a nation. I still think we will thrive eventually, outside the EU but close to its orbit (we have no choice in the matter)
Incidentally and relatedly I have just been to Sweden. It is a prosperous yet oddly troubled nation. Their loyalty to the EU is, I sense, almost as schizo as ours, and they may do something even madder quite soon (like elect the Swedish Democrats, or at least make them a governing party in a coalition)
We forget that all of Europe is roiled by terrorism, immigration, globalism and the rest. We think we are alone in our angst. We are certainly not.
It is not everyday that I agree with SeanT, but I think that surprisingly little will happen with Brexit. I expect a Limbo Brexit, with the Transition arrangement agreed last Dec taking place in March, but Transition to an indefinite state. We will have Brexited, but not to the point of actually being in a different state.
In terms of the issues that we face, I agree that these are much the same in Sweden, and require common European solutions and co-ordination. That requires political structures and agreements, not just commercial ones.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
But it was going to become EU immigration, is the point.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
I wasn't aware that there was an allegation that it had been doctored. If so, that is disgraceful.
As for non-EU immigration, isn't the issue that Germany took a unilateral decision and then wanted everyone else to help out? Once someone has an EU passport they are free to move to any member state. That's not say they'd all move here, but I think it's fair to raise this as an issue.
Incidentally, when our Navy vessel was picking up boats in the Med and dumping the people in Sicily, I was very much in favour of the Italians issuing them with Italian (i.e. EU) passports and pointing them in the direction of Britain.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
This is his conclusion:
Under the Chequers proposals, we are about to make a historic mistake and turn this country into a rules-taker from Brussels, with no say on those rules – not just for industrial goods and agri-foods but across a wide range of economic activity. Look at the humiliation of Greece – an EU member – and ask yourself how the EU will legislate with the UK out of the room, and when we can no longer do anything to protect ourselves from the imposition of those rules. Will the EU act in our interests and the interests of UK jobs and growth, or the interests of the EU?
The answer is clear. It is written in graffiti all over Greece. Why, then, are we proposing to turn the UK, in important respects, into the perpetual punk of Brussels? Chuck Chequers.
That is a good argument for Remaining or rejoining.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
But it was going to become EU immigration, is the point.
Well then, that’s the argument that should have been made.
The issue of how to deal with mass migration caused by war and terror is not an easy one and not one which could be reduced to Farage’s simplistic analysis and solutions.
I agree that Merkel’s actions were a strong contributory factor to the result. That does not excuse Farage’s actions.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Agreed times a million, Twitter is actually a more pleasant place to debate and argue than PB right now, and it is the ultra Remainers like Meeks and the ultra Leavers like everyone Meeks despises who are doing the damage.
They are actively damaging the site. Shame.
FWIW and in the spirit of ecumenical harmony, I agree with Nick Palmer and this wise threader. Indeed he and I have agreed on this (if nothing else) since the Brexit vote. In the end it will be fudged. It's what European politicians do. And maybe it is for the best. The fudge will please no one, some will hate it, many others will see a chance of nudging the fudge further in their desired direction. Sensible Leavers will think, well, at least we are out, we can work on the details later. Sensible Remainers will think, well, at least we honoured democracy and we didn't do too much damage to the economy, maybe we can re-enter the SM and CU under a new government,
Such is politics. We will endure as a nation. I still think we will thrive eventually, outside the EU but close to its orbit (we have no choice in the matter)
Incidentally and relatedly I have just been to Sweden. It is a prosperous yet oddly troubled nation. Their loyalty to the EU is, I sense, almost as schizo as ours, and they may do something even madder quite soon (like elect the Swedish Democrats, or at least make them a governing party in a coalition)
We forget that all of Europe is roiled by terrorism, immigration, globalism and the rest. We think we are alone in our angst. We are certainly not.
I agree with pretty much all of this post.
Presumably, in keeping with this spirit of ecumenical harmony, you will no longer be labelling Remainers as traitors in future Sean?
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
I only saw it online, posted by people complaining about how bad it was. I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
It was certainly out there in the wild.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
And the official position of the UK government was to support that application. But we have been over this hundreds of times.
Was the image doctored in any way? I believe it was used by the Guardian so unless you think they shouldn't use that image, I don't see why Farage couldn't use it.
Bottom line is, Merkel's stupid policy helped create it.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. (Edit: I may be wrong on this but if I am, I’m sure someone will correct me.)
Who took the image?
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
No. In my head I had conflated the two posters, thinking that the slogan from the Turkey poster was on the image from the breaking point one.
They obviously didn’t make much of an impression at the time.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
But it was going to become EU immigration, is the point.
And an estimated 80 per cent were young (single) men. The policy seemed to be the Titanic in reverse - women, children and the elderly last. Surely who gets our help should be based on who is most vulnerable not who can bully or bribe their way to the front of the queue?
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
So why do you think Michael Gove regrets the tone of the Vote Leave campaign on Turkey?
Well I did not see Turkey as an issue as I knew they would be years from joining. Indeed I voted remain
I remember quite distinctly I, and several others, criticising the poster for playing on misleading fears. Demands people do so now which pretend no one did at the time are blatant, knowing lies, and thus a pretend criticism. So don't worry, that isn't a real issue.
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
So why do you think Michael Gove regrets the tone of the Vote Leave campaign on Turkey?
Well I did not see Turkey as an issue as I knew they would be years from joining. Indeed I voted remain
I remember quite distinctly I, and several others, criticising the poster for playing on misleading fears. Demands people do so now which pretend no one did at the time are blatant, knowing lies, and thus a pretend criticism. So don't worry, that isn't a real issue.
That is a very good point and I do remember criticism at the time
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the bridge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
Having done some research, my apologies. It appears that the photo is genuine ie undoctored but that is of people moving from Croatia to Slovenia so not quite what Farage was claiming.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
I never saw the Turkey poster at all, even online.
I only saw the UKIP poster online. I said at the time that was Farage being Spoilt Bastard and wanting to be the centre of attention. Which he was with the death of Jo Cox a short time later that day - but not in the way he wanted. He could have killed Brexit with that stunt. Which, it isn't difficult to wonder, might have been his aim.
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
Having done some research, my apologies. It appears that the photo is genuine ie undoctored but that is of people moving from Croatia to Slovenia so not quite what Farage was claiming.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the brdge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
I'm afraid the resentment will fester for a long, long time Big_G, particularly amongst the young.
We had some friends staying this weekend (not particularly young as it happens), they are not at all political but I was amazed at how vehemently angry they are about the way Brexit is panning out and how badly they feel Leave misled the country.
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
It seems likely to me that the image is the property of some right wing news site (Breitbart ?), which is how UKIP may have gotten permission to use it in a poster in the first place.
I could easily believe that, whilst not exactly doctored, the image may have been carefully chosen and cropped to emphasise the maleness of the migrants.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
But it was going to become EU immigration, is the point.
And an estimated 80 per cent were young (single) men. The policy seemed to be the Titanic in reverse - women, children and the elderly last. Surely who gets our help should be based on who is most vulnerable not who can bully or bribe their way to the front of the queue?
True. Rather disgracefully, Britain has given refuge to precisely zero Syrian Christians over the last year, despite them being one of the most persecuted and vulnerable groups in that benighted land.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the bridge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
True. But some seem obsessed with refighting the last war. Which they lost.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
Meeting the 25 criteria didn't do much to dissuade people from the eastern european countries from leaving en masse.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
Meeting the 25 criteria didn't do much to dissuade people from the eastern european countries from leaving en masse.
So the fuck what? We are talking about Turkey joining the EU.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the brdge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
I'm afraid the resentment will fester for a long, long time Big_G, particularly amongst the young.
We had some friends staying this weekend (not particularly young as it happens), they are not at all political but I was amazed at how vehemently angry they are about the way Brexit is panning out and how badly they feel Leave misled the country.
It depends on outcomes. I do believe longer term there should be a responsible bid to re-join from dispirited remainers but Brexit we must, even if it is BINO
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the brdge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
I'm afraid the resentment will fester for a long, long time Big_G, particularly amongst the young.
We had some friends staying this weekend (not particularly young as it happens), they are not at all political but I was amazed at how vehemently angry they are about the way Brexit is panning out and how badly they feel Leave misled the country.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
It is water under the brdge now. The question is what happens next not what happened in the 2016 campaign
I'm afraid the resentment will fester for a long, long time Big_G, particularly amongst the young.
We had some friends staying this weekend (not particularly young as it happens), they are not at all political but I was amazed at how vehemently angry they are about the way Brexit is panning out and how badly they feel Leave misled the country.
Undoubtably true, and not only the people that you might expect. The fairly apolitical Mrs Foxy gets incandescent about how the Brexiteers are destroying the country.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
Nope. What was pivotal to the outcome was Blair's unforgivable refusal to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004.
Without that there would have been no UKIP surge and no pressure for an EU referendum in the first place
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
Having done some research, my apologies. It appears that the photo is genuine ie undoctored but that is of people moving from Croatia to Slovenia so not quite what Farage was claiming.
How does that not show what Farage was claiming?
Doesn’t the wording say that it’s about our borders?
Anyway, what I recalled - about doctoring - was incorrect so wanted to put that straight.
I understood the image had been doctored so that it only showed young men. So it wasn’t even an honest photo of what was happening in Europe's South Eastern borders. It was a disgraceful poster.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
But it was going to become EU immigration, is the point.
And an estimated 80 per cent were young (single) men. The policy seemed to be the Titanic in reverse - women, children and the elderly last. Surely who gets our help should be based on who is most vulnerable not who can bully or bribe their way to the front of the queue?
True. Rather disgracefully, Britain has given refuge to precisely zero Syrian Christians over the last year, despite them being one of the most persecuted and vulnerable groups in that benighted land.
There would be some serious wailing were we to selectively provide refuge to Christians, no matter how justified it might be.
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
How would you doctor the image anyway? Photoshop is jolly clever but it seems to me extremely unlikely that women, old men etc have been edited out of that.
Having done some research, my apologies. It appears that the photo is genuine ie undoctored but that is of people moving from Croatia to Slovenia so not quite what Farage was claiming.
How does that not show what Farage was claiming?
Doesn’t the wording say that it’s about our borders?
Anyway, what I recalled - about doctoring - was incorrect so wanted to put that straight.
Well the point is anyone who is issued an EU passport could come here. Now, that might be some time away (perhaps not that long now), but it's still a fair point. And notice that they are crossing between two EU member states, rather than staying in the first country they came to (though I guess that's because they were making their way to Germany).
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
None of the 25-odd criteria would close the GDP/capita gap. None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
Meeting the 25 criteria didn't do much to dissuade people from the eastern european countries from leaving en masse.
So the fuck what? We are talking about Turkey joining the EU.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
None of the 25-odd criteria would close the GDP/capita gap. None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
As I just said, so the fuck what? If it doesn't fulfil the criteria it doesn't join.
Are you whining about a second if not third derivative?
Watching the Bodyguard on BBC1 tonight any similarities between the Home Secretary and Theresa May are I assume purely coincidental
I found it a bit of a slow start. Though helped by Madden being easy on the eye. Hopefully it will ramp up a gear tomorrow - it was missing that intense Mercurio dialogue in ep 1
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
None of the 25-odd criteria would close the GDP/capita gap. None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
As I just said, so the fuck what? If it doesn't fulfil the criteria it doesn't join.
Are you whining about a second if not third derivative?
The scaremongering was about migration from Turkey, and I think one of the biggest drivers of migration is seeking a better standard of living. You're claiming it would be a different country, but it might not be different in the areas that matter.
That’s not the one I was thinking of: I thought you ment the one showing the queue of people trying to get in. After all this one is at worst an exageration. “Turkey is applying to join the EU” would have been completely true at the time.
It's not really visible on that photo but it also shows an open door with a queue of footprints trekking towards it.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Is Turkey explicitly mentioned on the Breaking Point poster? Ta in advance.
The 'breaking point' poster doesn't mention Turkey and the Turkey poster doesn't have a doctored photo (just doctored facts) but both represent disgusting lies that right-minded Leavers ought to be embarrassed at.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
I *very* nearly voted Leave, probably would have done if I hadn't effectively given my vote to my then 17 year old son. I nevertheless never wavered from my opinion that Leave in general and Farage in particular were the biggest bunch of fucking conts on the face of the planet and that their campaign was shit from start to finish. I would expect the view of PB leavers to be the same and that they were not responsible for nor influenced by nor tacitly supportive of Farage and co; it is understandable if they are in fact embarrassed, but the situation doesn't justify hectoring demands that they should be.
Watching the Bodyguard on BBC1 tonight any similarities between the Home Secretary and Theresa May are I assume purely coincidental
I found it a bit of a slow start. Though helped by Madden being easy on the eye. Hopefully it will ramp up a gear tomorrow - it was missing that intense Mercurio dialogue in ep 1
Gradual setting of the scene but I thought the first 20 minutes were quite dramatic
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
None of the 25-odd criteria would close the GDP/capita gap. None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
As I just said, so the fuck what? If it doesn't fulfil the criteria it doesn't join.
Are you whining about a second if not third derivative?
Whether it fulfills the criteria or not is immaterial to the debate. It was also not in the control of the British electorate.
Are the idiots still trying to reconcile the two concepts?
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
How different would it have been? I suspect the GDP/capita gap would have been similar and that migration would have been almost entirely in one direction, as it was with the eastern european countries.
It has fulfilled is it one out of 25-odd necessary criteria. That would be pretty different.
None of the 25-odd criteria would close the GDP/capita gap. None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
As I just said, so the fuck what? If it doesn't fulfil the criteria it doesn't join.
Are you whining about a second if not third derivative?
The scaremongering was about migration from Turkey, and I think one of the biggest drivers of migration is seeking a better standard of living. You're claiming it would be a different country, but it might not be different in the areas that matter.
What the fuck are you talking about? The scaremongering was about Turkey joining the EU. Look at the posters. The clue is there.
Comments
That statement implies there are things on Skwawkbox that are true.
I don’t walk past any poster sites on my way to work, so I don’t normally see any posters. Those unlucky enough to drive to work may have different experiences of course.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/26/state-greece-shows-us-crucial-chuck-chequers-deal/
For example we could each make predictions of what would happen with a No Deal Brexit, or following a Remain win in a #Peoplesvote. They are quite likely to be incorrect, but they would not be lies.
In the lead up to the referendum I was badly ill with bronchitis and asthma, spent much of my time in the garden (and the Lakes) and eventually fled to Italy to recuperate about a week before the vote. I found the whole campaign quite dispiriting but did enjoy writing my first PB thread headers about it.
As a Remainer I have no problem in calling the latter lies and identifying that with elements of the Remain campaign - and yet I still feel that the Leave campaign was more dishonest.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/26/state-greece-shows-us-crucial-chuck-chequers-deal/
How can a former Foreign Secretary be so lacking in judgement or understanding confuse the UK's current membership of the EU with a country and a currency we are not a member? The UK's EU membership and the monetary policy of Greece have nothing in common.
Boris is a disingenuous charlatan who seems to have a poor grasp of basic concepts or he is a nefarious shyster trying to warp political discourse for his own purposes. He is not putting up a sustainable and well thought out vision just a critic of a problem in another country. Johnson just keeps digging a bigger hole in which his rhetoric and the reality of the situation the UK finds itself diverge to even more perilous extremes. I cannot understand how this huge gap between reality and his delusion is still endorsed by anyone apart from extremist lunatics. Brexit on Johnsons terms is economic suicide.
1. Oxford Simon. Wes Streeting and others (myself) want a Labour government. Yes Corbyn has unsavoury friends. But the alternative is a dogwhistle racist Tory government with interesting friends.
2. Awful as the latest shooting in America is, that is the society that Americans vote for. We may find their gun culture and mass shootings distasteful but they keep voting for politicians who maintain it so they must have a different perspective.
3. We do have to park the personal abuse. Lets not have political betting go the way that Facebook has gone for the Labour Party...
4. Of course they want to persecute people making false anti-semitism claims (all of them) - I read that rich Jews across the globe are pulling the strings to drive their own shadowy adventire. What, you think thats antisemitic? Yiu must be a BLAIRITE then...
Political campaigns are full of hyperbole and misrepresentation. PB Tories seem particularly fond of forecasting that PM Corbyn would be like Venezuela run by Nazis for example, While the 24 hours to save the NHS is a Lab favourite.
Leave was simply more successful in tapping into the atavistic fears of Britons.
Its almost as if referendums are not the best way to decide these issues, but having done so, we should acknowledge that we have awoken dark forces in our society. By lancing the boil we have released a lot of foul infective pus. Lancing is only part of the treatment of a boil, it then needs disinfection.
Under the Chequers proposals, we are about to make a historic mistake and turn this country into a rules-taker from Brussels, with no say on those rules – not just for industrial goods and agri-foods but across a wide range of economic activity. Look at the humiliation of Greece – an EU member – and ask yourself how the EU will legislate with the UK out of the room, and when we can no longer do anything to protect ourselves from the imposition of those rules. Will the EU act in our interests and the interests of UK jobs and growth, or the interests of the EU?
The answer is clear. It is written in graffiti all over Greece. Why, then, are we proposing to turn the UK, in important respects, into the perpetual punk of Brussels? Chuck Chequers.
Bottom line is, Merkel's stupid policy helped create it.
Like cyclefree and DavidL, I never saw any posters during the Referendum in my part of the world.
Who ran the more dishonest campaign, Leavers or Remainers ... well, that is like trying to decide who is the bigger rogue, Trump or Netanyahu ?
But these things need to be handled sensitively and Farage is an arse.
Cameron 2016: "British Prime Minister on Sunday said that Turkey joining the EU is not 'remotely on the cards' after Brexit campaigners say the UK will not be able to veto Turkey joining."
And we are told the lying was on the Leave side. As for xenophobia - the objection to the Turks was that they are young, poor and numerous. Disliking or fearing people for being those things is not xenophobia- a word which in practice seems to mean "What are all these horrid toys doing in my pram?" in the current PB idiolect.
This the one I was thinking of.
As I said above, I’m not sure how anyone can defend it.
Quite apart from any other consideration, non-EU immigration is, and always has been, under our control.
In terms of the issues that we face, I agree that these are much the same in Sweden, and require common European solutions and co-ordination. That requires political structures and agreements, not just commercial ones.
As for non-EU immigration, isn't the issue that Germany took a unilateral decision and then wanted everyone else to help out? Once someone has an EU passport they are free to move to any member state. That's not say they'd all move here, but I think it's fair to raise this as an issue.
Incidentally, when our Navy vessel was picking up boats in the Med and dumping the people in Sicily, I was very much in favour of the Italians issuing them with Italian (i.e. EU) passports and pointing them in the direction of Britain.
The issue of how to deal with mass migration caused by war and terror is not an easy one and not one which could be reduced to Farage’s simplistic analysis and solutions.
I agree that Merkel’s actions were a strong contributory factor to the result. That does not excuse Farage’s actions.
Presumably, in keeping with this spirit of ecumenical harmony, you will no longer be labelling Remainers as traitors in future Sean?
The image surely is the property of a photo-journalist and is subject to copyright, no?
They obviously didn’t make much of an impression at the time.
There is no doubt these and other lies such as £350m per week extra for the NHS swayed the outcome; whether Leave would have won without lying has to be in doubt.
Turkey is joining the EU was a scaremongering lie aimed at those racists amongst us.
Cameron supporting Turkey joining the EU was saying he wanted then to become a country that could join the EU which it was and is miles away from.
A Turkey that could join the EU is a very different country to the one that exists right now.
Why do people find this difficult to understand?
I only saw the UKIP poster online. I said at the time that was Farage being Spoilt Bastard and wanting to be the centre of attention. Which he was with the death of Jo Cox a short time later that day - but not in the way he wanted. He could have killed Brexit with that stunt. Which, it isn't difficult to wonder, might have been his aim.
We had some friends staying this weekend (not particularly young as it happens), they are not at all political but I was amazed at how vehemently angry they are about the way Brexit is panning out and how badly they feel Leave misled the country.
I could easily believe that, whilst not exactly doctored, the image may have been carefully chosen and cropped to emphasise the maleness of the migrants.
I am sure they will be bored shitless that 99% of my tweets are not about politics at all a mirror image of my new followers by the look of it.
They have ALL got over it.
Edit: whoops, 31!
Without that there would have been no UKIP surge and no pressure for an EU referendum in the first place
Anyway, what I recalled - about doctoring - was incorrect so wanted to put that straight.
https://twitter.com/MomentumBrent/status/1033788966145863680
None of the 25-odd criteria would stop the drain of migration being one directional only.
Are you whining about a second if not third derivative?
https://www.indy100.com/article/sarah-sanders-press-briefing-bad-lip-reading-video-white-house-8506151
Part 2 tomorrow
https://areomagazine.com/2018/08/23/no-we-are-not-right-wing-we-are-liberal-lefties-and-we-are-many/