TM announced the abolition of the triple lock and Corbyn objected saying he would re-instate it.
Furthermore, I see no reason why NI stops at 65 or whatever the retirement age will be. While I benefitted from it for a while it is obvious if you are working you should pay full NI no matter your age
Clearly, given the core of the Conservative vote is in the older age groups, one would imagine any Conservative Government treading very carefully in these areas and no doubt the same will be true around social care provision and the cost of care.
The current NI situation for post-retirement age workers is completely and utterly indefensible and given the growing numbers of older workers it seems absurd for any Government not to create an equal playing field as you suggest.
On an unrelated, sad to hear the passing of John McCain. There have been some excellent tributes paid and those from former Presidents Clinton, George HW Bush and Carter haven't had a lot of coverage. This from an American website has the tributes from Trump and the five surviving former Presidents:
It is more your general behaviour that doesn't warrant calling others out as childish without seeming hypocritical. Anyway must be off, I'll leave you to miss out words whilst reading my post then accuse me of not being clear whilst non childishly and non angrily going on rants about how people you don't like are douchebags and whatever else you can come up with.
Go on - what 'general behaviour'?
This is fun. And I'll leave you to work out how you're going to try to defend this reported new policy by Labour.
Sky not leading on it yet. Mind you they have been 24/7 on the Pope visit
I have put CNN on. Not ideal - but it is the best I have for now
Have they manage to pull themselves away from 24/7 coverage of Trump? Everytime I turn it on these days, no matter what has happened in the world it is Trump, Trump, Trump.
Sky not leading on it yet. Mind you they have been 24/7 on the Pope visit
I have put CNN on. Not ideal - but it is the best I have for now
Have they manage to pull themselves away from 24/7 coverage of Trump? Everytime I turn it on these days, no matter what has happened in the world it is Trump, Trump, Trump.
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
I am more pissed at those people who still dismissing it.
I am even more pissed at the people who are acknowledging it as an issue - but not taking any action to tackle it. Yes - that is Labour members who are prepared to still work for Corbyn to become PM. They have completely lost their moral compass.
Where is the outrage?
Bloody hell Labour have more to say on cultural appropriation ffs
Culturally, I think we are becoming more American than ever. This is most obvious with the rise of ‘Americanisms’ that have almost become the standard form:
1) ‘on’ the weekend
2) airplane
3) I’m ‘good’ rather than well
I think people of 40 and over massively underestimate the importance of the Internet on cultural consumption. The children of my colleagues don’t watch CBeebies; as soon as they can choose, they opt for YouTube. Love Island aside, nobody watches television anymore. Netflix and Amazon are totally dominant. They are US-dominated. The flip side of this is more US viewers being exposed to British actors and shows (see ‘The Crown’), but the centre of gravity will always be in the US.
Other Americanisms adopted by the news media are "officer" rather than constable, for the police, though I supposed calling them policemen now stands a high chance of being inaccurate as well as sexist, and using "gender" to mean sex.
Even on television, there are so many satellite channels basically showing wall-to-wall American content.
More sinister is the Americanisation of our news, especially at weekends and overnight because junior staff take their lead from the American news channels. The BBC led for most of the day on the death of John McCain who, inspiring though his story might be, means nothing to most Britons who don't spend their lives on pb.
Sky not leading on it yet. Mind you they have been 24/7 on the Pope visit
I have put CNN on. Not ideal - but it is the best I have for now
Have they manage to pull themselves away from 24/7 coverage of Trump? Everytime I turn it on these days, no matter what has happened in the world it is Trump, Trump, Trump.
The liberal media treat Trump as Meeks treats Brexit supporters.
Plenty of things to complain about with Trump - but it is quite a sight to see the media in full rant when Trump does something which never bothered the press when Obama did something similar.
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
I am more pissed at those people who still dismissing it.
I am even more pissed at the people who are acknowledging it as an issue - but not taking any action to tackle it. Yes - that is Labour members who are prepared to still work for Corbyn to become PM. They have completely lost their moral compass.
Where is the outrage?
Bloody hell Labour have more to say on cultural appropriation ffs
Cowardly MPs are more concerned with their own future than standing up for what is right.
Wes Streeting revealed his own colours on this last night. He is putting career ahead of morality. He is prepared to see Corbyn become PM.
Sky not leading on it yet. Mind you they have been 24/7 on the Pope visit
I have put CNN on. Not ideal - but it is the best I have for now
Have they manage to pull themselves away from 24/7 coverage of Trump? Everytime I turn it on these days, no matter what has happened in the world it is Trump, Trump, Trump.
The liberal media treat Trump as Meeks treats Brexit supporters.
Plenty of things to complain about with Trump - but it is quite a sight to see the media in full rant when Trump does something which never bothered the press when Obama did something similar.
FFs, Trump is a liar and grifter who has gone well beyond Nixon. Should be in jail, not the White House.
As for turning it off, there was a switch for it on the wall above - one of the kitchen-style flip-switches, and not a normal socket-style switch. But in our case, the switch for the fridge does the oven, and vice versa...
As an aside, has there ever been a time with five living former Presidents?
2004, Reagan, Clinton, Bush Snr, Carter, and Ford.
I think the Church organist has already answered this. The period from the Inauguration of George W Bush in January 2001 to Reagan's death in June 2004 had the five former Presidents as you say.
Ford died in 2006 so we went down to three but back up to four when Obama was inaugurated in January 2009 and George W Bush joined the ex-Presidents and of course when Trump was inaugurated in January 2017 we went back up to five with the addition of Barack Obama.
Before that, again to ydoethur, we had five in 1861 for a short while so it's not happened that often.
George HW Bush is 94 and Carter is 93 so the possibility of reaching six if Trump serves only one term and leaves office in January 2021 can't be fully discounted.
As for turning it off, there was a switch for it on the wall above - one of the kitchen-style flip-switches, and not a normal socket-style switch. But in our case, the switch for the fridge does the oven, and vice versa...
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
Motes and beams. Sort out the xenophobia in Leave, which you support, before hurling rocks at Labour anti-Semitism.
I don't think that is worthy of you to be honest. They are both wholly unacceptable and both need calling out
Sadly, Leavers don’t feel any need to call out the xenophobia in the Leave campaign, no matter how often they are prompted. As we have just seen, they prefer to descend into abuse rather than address the form of racism they feel more sympathy with.
As for turning it off, there was a switch for it on the wall above - one of the kitchen-style flip-switches, and not a normal socket-style switch. But in our case, the switch for the fridge does the oven, and vice versa...
I think I would prefer a plug with a fuse than something directly connected to the house's wiring, even if there was a trip switch on that wiring.
The switch could also incorporate a fuse, in which case it would a switched-fused spur.
The argument is the switch is easier to reach to disconnect power and the fuse easier to replace than pulling out the machine to do either.
My kitchen has both. 13A sockets for washer and fridge wired to dedicated switches above the counter.
Mine too, although the switches are hidden away somewhat inconveniently in a cupboard. But my understanding in this case is that there was not a switch at all and the appliance was directly wired into the wiring. That is not safe. Apart from anything else the appliance itself could go "live" and give you a shock.
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
Motes and beams. Sort out the xenophobia in Leave, which you support, before hurling rocks at Labour anti-Semitism.
I don't think that is worthy of you to be honest. They are both wholly unacceptable and both need calling out
Sadly, Leavers don’t feel any need to call out the xenophobia in the Leave campaign, no matter how often they are prompted. As we have just seen, they prefer to descend into abuse rather than address the form of racism they feel more sympathy with.
I know some from the alt right used xenophobia but the vast majority did not and it is unfair to suggest that leave supporters were xenophobic.
However, I assume you utterly condemn Corbyn and his cabal's anti semetic views
As for turning it off, there was a switch for it on the wall above - one of the kitchen-style flip-switches, and not a normal socket-style switch. But in our case, the switch for the fridge does the oven, and vice versa...
I think I would prefer a plug with a fuse than something directly connected to the house's wiring, even if there was a trip switch on that wiring.
The switch could also incorporate a fuse, in which case it would a switched-fused spur.
The argument is the switch is easier to reach to disconnect power and the fuse easier to replace than pulling out the machine to do either.
My kitchen has both. 13A sockets for washer and fridge wired to dedicated switches above the counter.
Mine too, although the switches are hidden away somewhat inconveniently in a cupboard. But my understanding in this case is that there was not a switch at all and the appliance was directly wired into the wiring. That is not safe. Apart from anything else the appliance itself could go "live" and give you a shock.
There is a switch (and possibly a fuse) on the wall well above the appliance; I assume that all that has been done is essentially move the switch from the socket onto the wall. I was just slightly nervous at the fact that the socket didn't have a fascia, meaning I couldn't just unplug the old one and plug the new one in, and had to get someone capable at electrics in.
As an aside, has there ever been a time with five living former Presidents?
2004, Reagan, Clinton, Bush Snr, Carter, and Ford.
I think the Church organist has already answered this. The period from the Inauguration of George W Bush in January 2001 to Reagan's death in June 2004 had the five former Presidents as you say.
Ford died in 2006 so we went down to three but back up to four when Obama was inaugurated in January 2009 and George W Bush joined the ex-Presidents and of course when Trump was inaugurated in January 2017 we went back up to five with the addition of Barack Obama.
Before that, again to ydoethur, we had five in 1861 for a short while so it's not happened that often.
George HW Bush is 94 and Carter is 93 so the possibility of reaching six if Trump serves only one term and leaves office in January 2021 can't be fully discounted.
Carter is ill as well, remember. He probably won't live to see the end of Trump.
In 1826 four of the five former Presidents were still alive, but two died that year.
Oddly, it's happened much less often than there being no living ex-President - 1799-1801, 1875-77, 1908-1909, January-March 1933, 1972-74.
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
Motes and beams. Sort out the xenophobia in Leave, which you support, before hurling rocks at Labour anti-Semitism.
I don't think that is worthy of you to be honest. They are both wholly unacceptable and both need calling out
Sadly, Leavers don’t feel any need to call out the xenophobia in the Leave campaign, no matter how often they are prompted. As we have just seen, they prefer to descend into abuse rather than address the form of racism they feel more sympathy with.
I know some from the alt right used xenophobia but the vast majority did not and it is unfair to suggest that leave supporters were xenophobic.
However, I assume you utterly condemn Corbyn and his cabal's anti semetic views
That’s simply not true. Vote Leave’s campaign was built round xenophobia.
As for turning it off, there was a switch for it on the wall above - one of the kitchen-style flip-switches, and not a normal socket-style switch. But in our case, the switch for the fridge does the oven, and vice versa...
I think I would prefer a plug with a fuse than something directly connected to the house's wiring, even if there was a trip switch on that wiring.
The switch could also incorporate a fuse, in which case it would a switched-fused spur.
The argument is the switch is easier to reach to disconnect power and the fuse easier to replace than pulling out the machine to do either.
My kitchen has both. 13A sockets for washer and fridge wired to dedicated switches above the counter.
Mine too, although the switches are hidden away somewhat inconveniently in a cupboard. But my understanding in this case is that there was not a switch at all and the appliance was directly wired into the wiring. That is not safe. Apart from anything else the appliance itself could go "live" and give you a shock.
There is a switch (and possibly a fuse) on the wall well above the appliance; I assume that all that has been done is essentially move the switch from the socket onto the wall. I was just slightly nervous at the fact that the socket didn't have a fascia, meaning I couldn't just unplug the old one and plug the new one in, and had to get someone capable at electrics in.
Very wise. The most careful man I have ever seen around electricity was my late father in law. And he was a qualified electrical engineer who worked for the Hydro Board. He knew exactly how dangerous it can be.
It's like they don't take this anti-Semitism stuff seriously.
If they had said that these penalties would apply to all complaints - that would be bad.
But singling out antisemitism complaints looks more like an agenda to try to shut this issue down by gagging people.
This is indefensible.
All of it is indefensible - they just don't care.
I can't tell you how pissed I am at the people who post on here who chose to see nothing when this first started to be a real issue.
Motes and beams. Sort out the xenophobia in Leave, which you support, before hurling rocks at Labour anti-Semitism.
I don't think that is worthy of you to be honest. They are both wholly unacceptable and both need calling out
Sadly, Leavers don’t feel any need to call out the xenophobia in the Leave campaign, no matter how often they are prompted. As we have just seen, they prefer to descend into abuse rather than address the form of racism they feel more sympathy with.
I know some from the alt right used xenophobia but the vast majority did not and it is unfair to suggest that leave supporters were xenophobic.
However, I assume you utterly condemn Corbyn and his cabal's anti semetic views
That’s simply not true. Vote Leave’s campaign was built round xenophobia.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Spot on and I have been saying something similar for a long time
Politics is and has always been a bearpit. Nobody forces you, oxfordsimon or anyone else to come here and play with the bears. Indeed, I would argue most of the time it's mostly civilised.
The problem is it's the same people all of the time saying the same things so it ends up like baseline tennis. I know for instance you will generally argue from a pro-Conservative viewpoint and you can probably guess I won't -nothing wrong with that and at least you have been willing to criticise some on the Conservative side just as I have criticised the LDs on occasion.
It is those who are completely unwilling to accept their position or Party might not be infallible and come on here day after day repeating their position who are the problem.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
No. You want it to be noted. No-one else does.
Leavers don’t. They want to be left in peace to luxuriate in their rampant hypocrisy.
No. There is only one person pushing this line. You. Over and over and over and over.
We all know what you believe. We all know your position. It does not need to be repeated. Ever.
But you won't give up.
I don’t need to hear the views of hypocritical pick n mix racists on a form of racism that doesn’t benefit them. But they are nonetheless remarkably forthcoming with them.
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
Surely he was a Cretaceous Marxist? Huge body, not much at the top end and lots of tail.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
No. You want it to be noted. No-one else does.
Leavers don’t. They want to be left in peace to luxuriate in their rampant hypocrisy.
No. There is only one person pushing this line. You. Over and over and over and over.
We all know what you believe. We all know your position. It does not need to be repeated. Ever.
But you won't give up.
I don’t need to hear the views of hypocritical pick n mix racists on a form of racism that doesn’t benefit them. But they are nonetheless remarkably forthcoming with them.
I'm out. There is absolutely no point trying to reason with someone so blinkered.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
So why do you think Michael Gove regrets the tone of the Vote Leave campaign on Turkey?
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
You're right. There's no point in trying to 'call out' people since they will ignore it when it happens, pretend it has never occurred, so nothing is gained, all of us should do as you say, as it's only ever a distraction whether it comes from me or anyone else.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Spot on and I have been saying something similar for a long time
Politics is and has always been a bearpit. Nobody forces you, oxfordsimon or anyone else to come here and play with the bears. Indeed, I would argue most of the time it's mostly civilised.
The problem is it's the same people all of the time saying the same things so it ends up like baseline tennis. I know for instance you will generally argue from a pro-Conservative viewpoint and you can probably guess I won't -nothing wrong with that and at least you have been willing to criticise some on the Conservative side just as I have criticised the LDs on occasion.
It is those who are completely unwilling to accept their position or Party might not be infallible and come on here day after day repeating their position who are the problem.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It should also be considered how it made Turks (and in fact others) in the UK feel.
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
Indeed so (though personally I think Jurassic Marxist was a fine film). I'm inclined to think she is the best they have in the short term, but that's in part since she knows she is not leading into the next election and so is more prepared to at least attempt some hard choices.
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
Surely he was a Cretaceous Marxist? Huge body, not much at the top end and lots of tail.
I read the other day that there was a bigger gap between the stegosaurus and brontosaurus (both late jurassic) and the Tyrannosaurus Rex (upper Cretaceous) than there is between the TRex and us. My faith in Land Before Time was shattered.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It should also be considered how it made Turks (and in fact others) in the UK feel.
Shush. These people have other forms of racism to get upset about. The one where they could have made a practical difference is not to be discussed.
Carter is ill as well, remember. He probably won't live to see the end of Trump.
In 1826 four of the five former Presidents were still alive, but two died that year.
Oddly, it's happened much less often than there being no living ex-President - 1799-1801, 1875-77, 1908-1909, January-March 1933, 1972-74.
George HW Bush isn't that well either - both Clinton and George W Bush are 72 incredible as that may seem. You're probably right to imagine we will be at four (or perhaps even three) ex-Presidents by 2021.
That last period without a living former President would presumably be from the death of Lyndon Johnson in 1973 to the resignation of Nixon in August 1974.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
My favourite anecdote on those lines is the one about terrorist, liar, forger, swindler, embezzler, tax evader, adulterer and of course Taoiseach Charles Haughey. When asked why he had turned out for the funeral of his great rival Erskine Childers, he replied, 'To make sure the fucker was planted.'
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
So why do you think Michael Gove regrets the tone of the Vote Leave campaign on Turkey?
Well I did not see Turkey as an issue as I knew they would be years from joining. Indeed I voted remain
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
My money's on Theresa leading them into the next election; I've felt that for over a year now. She's not a quitter and the Tories don't have anyone else who would do better.
There is no way that the Conservatives will allow May to lead them into the next election after the epic ineptitude of her last campaign. She almost lost to a party led by a Jurassic Marxist,
My money's on Theresa leading them into the next election; I've felt that for over a year now. She's not a quitter and the Tories don't have anyone else who would do better.
Depends on when it is, surely? If it's not for four years I think she will have been replaced. If it's next year that might be different.
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
In addition, why just anti-Semitism? Surely all accusations should be covered like this?
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
Given that Labour has Claudia Webbe as their Head of Disputes, it is absolutely clear that they are no interested in impartiality in such matters. Her track record of support for disreputable types should have ruled her out of contention for such a post - but she was still appointed.
This draft piece of their code just reinforces the impression that they do not take this issue seriously.
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
Your post is sensible but your last paragraph nails labour's problem.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It should also be considered how it made Turks (and in fact others) in the UK feel.
Shush. These people have other forms of racism to get upset about. The one where they could have made a practical difference is not to be discussed.
I voted remain reluctantly and in part because of the tone of the campaign. I did not want to be on the same side as Nigel Farage and George Galloway. But your constant insistence that the only reason anyone could have had for voting Leave was xenophobia and that “Turkey is joining the EU” is somehow up there with the Protocols of the elders of Zion? Well done. You are going a long way to getting me to change my mind.
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
In addition, why just anti-Semitism? Surely all accusations should be covered like this?
They already have policy in place to deal with vexatious complaints. This is a new additional bit just for anti-semitism complaints.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
It should also be considered how it made Turks (and in fact others) in the UK feel.
Shush. These people have other forms of racism to get upset about. The one where they could have made a practical difference is not to be discussed.
I voted remain reluctantly and in part because of the tone of the campaign. I did not want to be on the same side as Nigel Farage and George Galloway. But your constant insistence that the only reason anyone could have had for voting Leave was xenophobia and that “Turkey is joining the EU” is somehow up there with the Protocols of the elders of Zion? Well done. You are going a long way to getting me to change my mind.
I don’t insist any such thing. Never have. Just as Labour aren’t going to go to the electorate just on a pro-Hamas platform.
What I do insist is that the campaign fought was xenophobic and that Leavers, who may have had many reasons for considering voting Leave, were strikingly mute in the face of that xenophobia. But now feel much more empowered to speak out about anti-Semitism because that form of racism doesn’t benefit them.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
I confess I have not conducted an exhaustive audit for that claim. Even you, however, must surely concede that the poster was emblazoned far and wide.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
That is an exaggeration. In my genteel part of the world we had no posters of any kind anywhere on our bus stops.
In Scotland the only posters I saw at all were some very late and half hearted posters by the SNP in Murrayfield that suggested voting to remain might be a good idea, on balance, if you didn't resent getting tied up in these Tory games too much. I don't recall seeing a single Leave poster anywhere, let alone on every bus stop.
@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
Labour want this to go away. The hard left love procedural rules because its a clever wheeze to show how smart they are. They are behaving like it is student politics. They will do exactly the same if they ever get into power. Do we want a bunch of NUS wannabees running the country?
Can I just give a bit of perspective on this which, surprisingly, might be viewed as a little favourable to Labour on this.
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
In addition, why just anti-Semitism? Surely all accusations should be covered like this?
They already have policy in place to deal with vexatious complaints. This is a new additional bit just for anti-semitism complaints.
It is a very pointed change.
Indeed. And that’s why it shows that it is an attempt to stop such complaints.
Labour think that some of these complaints are being made, not because people are genuinely concerned about anti-semitism, but because it is a way of trying to get rid of Corbyn. What they refuse to acknowledge, however, is that many people feel that it is Corbyn’s judgment on this question which makes him unfit to be leader.
This issue will never be satisfactorily resolved because for the Labour leadership it has now become completely entangled with Corbyn’s survival as leader and that, for them, overrides all other considerations.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Even the lowliest legal assistant, the dumbest insurance lawyer knows that exaggeration undermines a claim.
@AlastairMeeks - If you want to point fingers at Leavers, I think you're far better off going after those who said doing a deal with the EU would be easy. That was a far worse claim to make and more depressingly I suspect our PM actually believed it when she triggered A50.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Surely the civil servants predictions were not lies. They may well be fairly described as wildly innaccurate and biased, but lies cannot be told about future events because the future is unknown.
Can we please just give up with the personal attacks?
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
Every time a Leaver quacks on about anti-Semitism without addressing the form of racism they acquiesced to, the point needs to be noted.
And your position on Corbyn is ?
I wish you were as assiduous in seeking clarification of Leavers’ viewpoints on the xenophobic lies they fell in behind mutely as you are of seeking my views on someone who I have never supported.
I do not accept your premise about leave. There were alt right Farage style issues but the central theme was to take back control of our laws, immigration and money which is absolutely not xenophobic
Turkey is not joining the EU. That lie, the centrepiece of Vote Leave’s campaign, was told in order to scare voters that 76 million Turks were poised to descend on Britain. That’s about as pure xenophobia as you can get.
I followed the referendum closely and while Turkey was mentioned by some the overriding message was to take back control of our laws, borders and immigration and I nearly voted leave because of it. Absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
Mentioned by some? The poster, complete with little footprints to hammer the point home, was on every bus stop in the land.
Even the lowliest legal assistant, the dumbest insurance lawyer knows that exaggeration undermines a claim.
And destroys your credibility.
So you never saw the poster? Try that line and you really will destroy your credibility.
Comments
This is fun. And I'll leave you to work out how you're going to try to defend this reported new policy by Labour.
Bloody hell Labour have more to say on cultural appropriation ffs
Plenty of things to complain about with Trump - but it is quite a sight to see the media in full rant when Trump does something which never bothered the press when Obama did something similar.
Wes Streeting revealed his own colours on this last night. He is putting career ahead of morality. He is prepared to see Corbyn become PM.
Should be in jail, not the White House.
wibble wibble
The argument is the switch is easier to reach to disconnect power and the fuse easier to replace than pulling out the machine to do either.
My kitchen has both. 13A sockets for washer and fridge wired to dedicated switches above the counter.
Ford died in 2006 so we went down to three but back up to four when Obama was inaugurated in January 2009 and George W Bush joined the ex-Presidents and of course when Trump was inaugurated in January 2017 we went back up to five with the addition of Barack Obama.
Before that, again to ydoethur, we had five in 1861 for a short while so it's not happened that often.
George HW Bush is 94 and Carter is 93 so the possibility of reaching six if Trump serves only one term and leaves office in January 2021 can't be fully discounted.
It is making the site increasingly unpleasant to see the same people go at it over and over and over again.
We know where people stand. If you don't like them, just ignore them. Personal attacks and abuse help none of us.
However, I assume you utterly condemn Corbyn and his cabal's anti semetic views
In 1826 four of the five former Presidents were still alive, but two died that year.
Oddly, it's happened much less often than there being no living ex-President - 1799-1801, 1875-77, 1908-1909, January-March 1933, 1972-74.
We all know what you believe. We all know your position. It does not need to be repeated. Ever.
But you won't give up.
The problem is it's the same people all of the time saying the same things so it ends up like baseline tennis. I know for instance you will generally argue from a pro-Conservative viewpoint and you can probably guess I won't -nothing wrong with that and at least you have been willing to criticise some on the Conservative side just as I have criticised the LDs on occasion.
It is those who are completely unwilling to accept their position or Party might not be infallible and come on here day after day repeating their position who are the problem.
I was also brought up as a Catholic. Does that make me a friend of terrorists or a friend of paedos?
(*) Nearly, as there are some people not on your list, such as Tory remainers. Or LIb Dems.
That last period without a living former President would presumably be from the death of Lyndon Johnson in 1973 to the resignation of Nixon in August 1974.
Indeed you seem to be the only poster on here who is possessed by the idea and not open to any reason.
It is a shame because apart from the xenophobia you are a very interesting poster
When I was in charge of whistleblowing investigations at my last bank, the Whistleblowing Policy had a provision stating that the bank reserved the right to take action against any employee making a whistleblowing allegation maliciously ie not in good faith. This did not mean that any unproven allegation was deemed to be malicious but that there had to be some real evidence of malice eg knowing that the allegation was untrue but going ahead regardless etc. Such a provision is necessary because being accused of something career ending and being under investigation is no picnic and if it happens as a result of malice, that is quite wrong and any employee doing that is behaving without integrity.
In practice, there was never any instance in which we contemplated let alone took such action. The downsides for any bank would be enormous and, absent the clearest of evidence, the risks would be far too great. It would look - and be taken by other employees, the public, regulators - as a bank seeking to retaliate against whistleblowers, which is an absolute no-no.
So the existence of such a clause in Labour’s code is not, all otther things being equal, wrong.
The trouble here is that other things are not equal here. Many feel, probably rightly, that Labour does not come to this with clean hands, that it is not doing this in order to be fair, but to stop such allegations being made. It is another example of Labour's poor (whether deliberate or through ineptness) handling of this matter.
This draft piece of their code just reinforces the impression that they do not take this issue seriously.
Who would trust Corbyn and his cabal
It is a very pointed change.
What I do insist is that the campaign fought was xenophobic and that Leavers, who may have had many reasons for considering voting Leave, were strikingly mute in the face of that xenophobia. But now feel much more empowered to speak out about anti-Semitism because that form of racism doesn’t benefit them.
Of course, as a leaver myself, I'd point out that my fellow civil servants told a pack of lies about what would happen if leave won the referendum. To me those civil servants who agreed to make up those forecasts are complete and utter c****.
Labour think that some of these complaints are being made, not because people are genuinely concerned about anti-semitism, but because it is a way of trying to get rid of Corbyn. What they refuse to acknowledge, however, is that many people feel that it is Corbyn’s judgment on this question which makes him unfit to be leader.
This issue will never be satisfactorily resolved because for the Labour leadership it has now become completely entangled with Corbyn’s survival as leader and that, for them, overrides all other considerations.
And destroys your credibility.