On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
Theresa had the cursed bus. Her campaign bus was the "Stronger In" one repainted.
You miss the point of the TM campaign. It was to use the supposed popular May over unpopular Corbyn to ram through proposals to increase austerity and put up taxes. Essentially it was the "Punishment Budget Manifesto". Increased NHS spending did not fit that agenda, and indeed the opposite. The pledge to protect the NHS from the effects of austerity was amongst the things dropped.
We are yet to see the populists in power in the UK, but it looks much more like it will be the left wing populists that win. The wave of populists will only break when (as @ydoethur says) they fail to deliver in power, and break up in shambles.
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
The obvious explanation for why they didn't - the Tories don't actually want to spend more money on the NHS.
Mrs May was determined to run a campaign that was the antithesis of David Cameron's style.
Dave met net gains at every general election by promising to ringfence the NHS budget, no wonder the NHS didn't get a look in at the 2017 general election under Mrs May.
I understand your pain. I have grandchildren, who when they've been active all day suddenly become very tearful at bed time. A "there, there" and a quick cuddle are needed. Laughing at them is counter-productive.
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
"Following the referendum result, that group of Leavers appealed to Remainers to make common cause with them to secure an EEA-type deal for now. "
Not after - Before. The last weekend before the vote, ASI released polling via the Telegraph showing that an interim EEA deal was both popular and acceptable to a large number of voters across the political spectrum. It was embargoed until that last Sunday for maximum effect.
All chance of an EEA Brexit went out the window when the Remain die-hards made clear they will never stop doing everything in their power to return to Brussels rule. I would have been very comfortable with a 5-10 year transition until the scale of those wanting to sabotage Brexit became clearly. Now I don't trust it would truly be a transition.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
The obvious explanation for why they didn't - the Tories don't actually want to spend more money on the NHS.
Mrs May was determined to run a campaign that was the antithesis of David Cameron's style.
Dave met net gains at every general election by promising to ringfence the NHS budget, no wonder the NHS didn't get a look in at the 2017 general election under Mrs May.
Net gains is meaningless when people state from a very different situation. There is no evidence that performance at the previous election matters one bit. In her first election, May has outperformed Cameron's first election.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
The obvious explanation for why they didn't - the Tories don't actually want to spend more money on the NHS.
Mrs May was determined to run a campaign that was the antithesis of David Cameron's style.
Dave met net gains at every general election by promising to ringfence the NHS budget, no wonder the NHS didn't get a look in at the 2017 general election under Mrs May.
Net gains is meaningless when people state from a very different situation. There is no evidence that performance at the previous election matters one bit. In her first election, May has outperformed Cameron's first election.
Nonsense.
Cameron took the Tories from opposition to government.
Mrs May took the Tories from a majority to a minority.
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
Indeed so. His views seem somewhat old fashioned to the point that he thinks deporting the ‘colonials’ will make the place better. It won’t, especially not his example of Indians who are mostly well educated, integrated and productive members of society.
As someone mentioned up thread, the latest trouble caused by immigrants came from the Irish, I don’t think anyone’s about to suggest we deport all the Irish - although we should quickly deport criminal foreigners of any nationality as they come out of prison.
Mr. E, indeed. My parents go on holiday to Cromer now and then and were very surprised by reading that the place had been effectively shut down because of gypsies (why have they been rebranded as travellers?).
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
My point is this bloke is an utter irrelevance, nothing he says should be taken seriously.
England got knocked out of Euro16 by Iceland around the time we voted to Leave the EU... imagine meeting someone who still complained about that defeat every day, saying Roy Hodgson should still be in charge and Gareth Southgate is crap!
Question. If Corbyn announced today that Labour would support a second EU referendum during 2018, with the option for the UK to remain in the EU, what would be the effect on polling ?
Personally i think Labours polling numbers would reduce, because a second referendum may not be wanted by many people. Those who favour Brexit but generally support Labour are not going to be happy. Those against Brexit might already be built into Labour polling, with not many extra votes and many might not want a divisive referendum. Those neutral on Brexit might well be people who don't support referendums and expect Parliament to take decisions.
At some point Labours position on Brexit is going to be under a spotlight. I am not sure Corbyn and Starmer share the same position on many issues. Labours Autumn conference might well vote for motions that Corbyn disagrees with. Labours membership are going to want Corbyn to support either a very soft Brexit with full EU single market/customs area membership or no Brexit at all. Problem for Corbyn is keeping party members and Labour supporters happy on Brexit. Might prove impossible.
Mrs May was determined to run a campaign that was the antithesis of David Cameron's style.
Dave met net gains at every general election by promising to ringfence the NHS budget, no wonder the NHS didn't get a look in at the 2017 general election under Mrs May.
Dave understood the importance of the NHS to people who rely on it.
In reality of course ringfencing the NHS budget is grossly inadequate given the rising demand, cost of new treatments and his idiotic Cancer Drugs Fund.
I would have been very comfortable with a 5-10 year transition until the scale of those wanting to sabotage Brexit became clearly. Now I don't trust it would truly be a transition.
How is rushing it distinguishable from sabotaging it in practice?
More ridiculous duplicity, there was never a pledge from anybody - read the bus. The successful message was that we have better things to do with our money than give it to Malta.
You must have a different picture to me, the one I can see say's "let's fund the NHS instead" if that's not a pledge then what is?
A request. Or a hope. But since the Leave campaign were never going to form a government, it was impossible for them to make any pledges.
The fact that even amongst Leave voters barely more than a third believed leaving the EU would bring an extra £350 million to the NHS shows that it was not that significant to the result. Reclaiming sovereignty and ending free movement were the main factors in the Leave victory
The area where people wanted Cameron to deliver fundamental change was immigration......
...Immigration from other EU countries and elsewhere had been a topic of public concern for several years and by early 2016 was seen by most voters as the most pressing issue facing the country. This was decidedly not good news for those who wished to remain in the European Union.
Clarke, Harold D.; Goodwin, Matthew; Whiteley, Paul. Brexit: Why Britain Voted to Leave the European Union (Kindle Locations 742-743). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
Yes Blair's failure to impose transition controls in 2004 on the new accession countries and Cameron's failure to get any significant controls on free movement in the renegotiation were key to the Leave vote
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Don't expect me to defend his policy!
Though another issue that Leavers need to resolve is that objections to non-EU immigrants are much stronger than EU immigrants.
I don't think Rees-Evans is anti Bulgarian. He has exercised his EU rights to build his fortified compound there, and appreciates their gun laws.
He seems value at 10 on Betfair, not least because he seems to be actively campaigning.
If he wins that may be the final nail in UKIP's coffin
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
The bloke is full on mental, have you seen him speak? Ukip should have just jacked it in when Farage quit as leader, they are following the same well trodden path of a football team who go downhill after a successful manager leaves. The 2014-2016 era was their 15 mins of fame
At some point Labours position on Brexit is going to be under a spotlight.
Because Labour are not in government and not likely to be, they can get away with a fudge. The crunch is likely to come if Parliament votes on a final deal, but that will be one vote and once it is passed it is unlikely to be an issue at the following election where any blame/praise will accrue to the government.
Given the splits in his party he's actually handling this matter quite adroitly, and it is unlikely they will be given the same publicity as Tory splits.
I would remind you as well that James Purnell made similar claims about Tory policies in advance of the general election of 2010. My abiding memory of this - which happened a few days before he resigned - was of Macdonnell, sitting next to him, putting his head in his hands in disgust at such stupidity. Opposition policies do not get substantial scrutiny except in elections, and then only if the government makes the effort. Otherwise, they are background noise.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
Theresa had the cursed bus. Her campaign bus was the "Stronger In" one repainted.
You miss the point of the TM campaign. It was to use the supposed popular May over unpopular Corbyn to ram through proposals to increase austerity and put up taxes. Essentially it was the "Punishment Budget Manifesto". Increased NHS spending did not fit that agenda, and indeed the opposite. The pledge to protect the NHS from the effects of austerity was amongst the things dropped.
We are yet to see the populists in power in the UK, but it looks much more like it will be the left wing populists that win. The wave of populists will only break when (as @ydoethur says) they fail to deliver in power, and break up in shambles.
The Tories still promised to ringfence the NHS budget in 2017
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
After Cromer this weekend, if they started with Irish traveller families, they'd win in North Norfolk hands down.
Yes gypsies and travellers are neck and neck with radical Islamists for most unpopular immigrant group
For the moment I'm concerned with those Leavers for whom immigration is not the paramount concern. So the free traders and sovereigntists. [Snipped]
So the entire post-referendum process has been driven by the headbangers. You can see the distaste and creeping fear of the EEA Leavers but they have to date taken no responsibility for the state of affairs that they in large part created.
What can they do about it now? Until there is some public and clear acknowledgement at the most senior level that they allowed themselves to be carried along with a campaign and a prospectus that with hindsight they now deeply regret for its meaning and impact, the headbangers will win. So they need to start there.
This will involve severe loss of credibility. But it will also put the headbangers for the first time on the defensive. It will send a powerful message to Remain supporters (and the EU, no bad thing for negotiations) that some Leavers are putting their country rather than their ideology first.
Where things go from there, I don't know. But that, followed by the inevitable public debate on these matters, must be the necessary first step.
Thank you.
I think that an admission that one was wrong can gain one some credibility, though it depends who is doing it and the reasons they give for their change of mind. It's a grown up and mature way of behaving but I don't see anyone with the necessary leadership skills prepared to do this or prepared to speak some hard truths to the country about what is involved in Brexit and about the trade-offs needed and why they are needed. I do think that immigration has to be part of that debate and it needs to involve 3 aspects:-
1. Control of immigration ie who makes the decisions is not the same as reduction. There seems to be a consistent confusion between the two. 2. Who is let in is more important than pure numbers. In short, 1000 hard working skilled doctors are infinitely preferable to 1000 unemployed Islamist youths. 3. Fairly sharing the costs of immigration - as well as its benefits - is largely within our control and needs to be addressed. The EU is largely irrelevant to that process though it has been used as a scapegoat.
I also think there is another - probably very small - group who should be involved in this debate and it is those (like @rcs100 ) who think that there are fundamental incompatibilities between the political cultures of Britain and most of Continental Europe and that the current EU structure is pushing them into an unhappy and, in the long-term, untenable marriage and that some alternative relationship - something short of the F*** You exit beloved of the Faragistes - is needed.
Mr. E, indeed. My parents go on holiday to Cromer now and then and were very surprised by reading that the place had been effectively shut down because of gypsies (why have they been rebranded as travellers?).
Because not all travellers are gypsies (or whatever the term is we're supposed to use)? In particular there are a large number of Irish travellers on the road now.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
Theresa had the cursed bus. Her campaign bus was the "Stronger In" one repainted.
You miss the point of the TM campaign. It was to use the supposed popular May over unpopular Corbyn to ram through proposals to increase austerity and put up taxes. Essentially it was the "Punishment Budget Manifesto". Increased NHS spending did not fit that agenda, and indeed the opposite. The pledge to protect the NHS from the effects of austerity was amongst the things dropped.
We are yet to see the populists in power in the UK, but it looks much more like it will be the left wing populists that win. The wave of populists will only break when (as @ydoethur says) they fail to deliver in power, and break up in shambles.
We have had populists in power.
But its populists for the 1% not the proles.
For example increasing student tuition fees was a very populist policy among university vice-chancellors.
There were complaints from a Cromer restaurant that the police sat outside and did nothing about the problems. Now, where else were there complaints that the police sat on their hands, possibly inhibited by being called racist?
My son's Irish passport has just arrived - he works in Denmark and it's for convenience, he says. My wife has just renewed hers. I'm surrounded by 'em.
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
The bloke is full on mental, have you seen him speak? Ukip should have just jacked it in when Farage quit as leader, they are following the same well trodden path of a football team who go downhill after a successful manager leaves. The 2014-2016 era was their 15 mins of fame
The final nail for the SDP was when the Official Monster Raving Loony Party beat them in the 1990 Bootle by-election, which David Dutton memorably called 'the most important achievement of the latter's overlong and undistinguished lifetime.' (He never had much sense of humour, Dutton.)
I think we're looking at something similar for UKIP.
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
There are lessons for today.
IMO the article is poor, and the situation was far more complex than that. For one thing, the new technology of electricity was flaky and (relatively) unreliable compared to the existing steam technology. The number of proven large suppliers were low and worse, there were relatively few skilled people capable of working with electrical devices, especially given the competing standards at the time.
You could easily write an article stating how 'early adopters' of electric and (later) the Internet got their fingers burnt from the immature new technology.
The lifespan of equipment also comes into it. The article ridiculously states that electric motors for factories came in in 1881, yet by 1900 only 5% of mechanical power came from them. The concept that the industrial infrastructure could have supported much more than that is laughable, as is the idea that factories would routinely rip our fairly new equipment (often with a lifespan of 40+ years) to replace it.
Inertia is sometimes understandable, and even warranted.
I think that if Cameron has announced that he would veto Turkish entry to the EU we would have voted to stay. The utterly disengenuous "we're technically in favour but don't worry because someone else will veto it" convinced no one.
Mr. Doethur, surprised by that answer. Just have Irish or Romanian as prefixes. Still gypsies.
Mr. CD13, although that's infuriating, thanks for posting that comment. This 'cultural sensitivities' bullshit is not enamouring the police with the public.
Mr. HYUFD, really? Would've thought Islamic terrorists/radicals would be most unpopular by a mile.
There is an interesting article on the BBC about what it took for factories to convert from steam power to electricity. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40673694 ...
There are lessons for today.
IMO the article is poor, and the situation was far more complex than that. For one thing, the new technology of electricity was flaky and (relatively) unreliable compared to the existing steam technology. The number of proven large suppliers were low and worse, there were relatively few skilled people capable of working with electrical devices, especially given the competing standards at the time.
You could easily write an article stating how 'early adopters' of electric and (later) the Internet got their fingers burnt from the immature new technology.
The lifespan of equipment also comes into it. The article ridiculously states that electric motors for factories came in in 1881, yet by 1900 only 5% of mechanical power came from them. The concept that the industrial infrastructure could have supported much more than that is laughable, as is the idea that factories would routinely rip our fairly new equipment (often with a lifespan of 40+ years) to replace it.
Inertia is sometimes understandable, and even warranted.
I don't think the article's that bad - it actually makes very similar points to those that you do, just with a slightly different emphasis.
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
There are lessons for today.
Indeed. The reverse was seen in the UK with the demise of the automatic car wash following the influx of cheap Eastern European labour in the 2000s. Cheap labour replacing capital.
Economies which become dependent on a supply of cheap labour fuelled by unskilled migration are characterised by a lack of capital investment and stagnating productivity and real wages.
On topic, I reckon Mrs May would have won a majority on June 8th if she had announced the £350m per week for the NHS in the Tory manifesto.
And she was advised to do so on here by me, and others.
Silly woman.
Indeed. Boris driving around the country on another bus with that pledge instead of the stupid dementia tax would have easily won the election.
It was such a blindingly obvious thing to do that only people with sod all common sense could have failed to do so.
God knows how much the Conservatives wasted on focus groups when all they had to do was read PB.
Theresa had the cursed bus. Her campaign bus was the "Stronger In" one repainted.
You miss the point of the TM campaign. It was to use the supposed popular May over unpopular Corbyn to ram through proposals to increase austerity and put up taxes. Essentially it was the "Punishment Budget Manifesto". Increased NHS spending did not fit that agenda, and indeed the opposite. The pledge to protect the NHS from the effects of austerity was amongst the things dropped.
We are yet to see the populists in power in the UK, but it looks much more like it will be the left wing populists that win. The wave of populists will only break when (as @ydoethur says) they fail to deliver in power, and break up in shambles.
We have had populists in power.
But its populists for the 1% not the proles.
For example increasing student tuition fees was a very populist policy among university vice-chancellors.
Actually, the populist bit on student fees was selling the idea that just about everyone's children could go to university.
Mr. Borough, that's some world class stupidity. "We should be different to X." "Yeah, why don't you join X then if you like them so much?!"
Edited extra bit: I don't think Cameron shifted his thinking away from a traditional campaign approach enough, possibly because he had to balance his party and the country, but perhaps also because the one man, one vote and binary nature of a referendum is significantly different to a General Election.
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent. 2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good. 3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
That's who I was thinking of. And yet I gather there are worse ones than him? The mind boggles.
UKIP should have taken a leaf out of the book of the Anti-Corn Law League - when the Corn Laws were repealed in 1846, it didn't bugger about trying to redefine itself, it held a massive celebratory banquet and unanimously voted to wind itself up as the job was done.
I would expect that they see the job as not done as we haven't Left yet and there is a small but very vocal minority of sore losers still trying to overturn the result.
There is an interesting article on the BBC about what it took for factories to convert from steam power to electricity. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40673694 ...
There are lessons for today.
IMO the article is poor, and the situation was far more complex than that. For one thing, the new technology of electricity was flaky and (relatively) unreliable compared to the existing steam technology. The number of proven large suppliers were low and worse, there were relatively few skilled people capable of working with electrical devices, especially given the competing standards at the time.
You could easily write an article stating how 'early adopters' of electric and (later) the Internet got their fingers burnt from the immature new technology.
The lifespan of equipment also comes into it. The article ridiculously states that electric motors for factories came in in 1881, yet by 1900 only 5% of mechanical power came from them. The concept that the industrial infrastructure could have supported much more than that is laughable, as is the idea that factories would routinely rip our fairly new equipment (often with a lifespan of 40+ years) to replace it.
Inertia is sometimes understandable, and even warranted.
I don't think the article's that bad - it actually makes very similar points to those that you do, just with a slightly different emphasis.
No, it doesn't mention the factors I mention, and they were biggies. It's partial to make a point, and a bogus one because it does not include those factors.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
There were complaints from a Cromer restaurant that the police sat outside and did nothing about the problems. Now, where else were there complaints that the police sat on their hands, possibly inhibited by being called racist?
My son's Irish passport has just arrived - he works in Denmark and it's for convenience, he says. My wife has just renewed hers. I'm surrounded by 'em.
About 20 years ago I was working at a wedding for members of that ‘community’, which threatened to turn into a riot as there were three times as many people there as should have been and they were looting the bar. When we called the police they asked us to stand by as they didn’t have enough people!
When they did turn up an hour later, it was four vans full of TSG who did an admirable job of emptying around 600 of them out. They said that from experience if they’d sent a couple of cars round after the initial call, then the cars would have finished upside down and on fire with the coppers in serious danger of injury. A scary night!
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
There are lessons for today.
Indeed. The reverse was seen in the UK with the demise of the automatic car wash following the influx of cheap Eastern European labour in the 2000s. Cheap labour replacing capital.
Economies which become dependent on a supply of cheap labour fuelled by unskilled migration are characterised by a lack of capital investment and stagnating productivity and real wages.
Surely not? Every time I watch the BBC trying to explain increased jobs they talk about the 'productivity puzzle'.....
I would expect that they see the job as not done as we haven't Left yet and there is a small but very vocal minority of sore losers still trying to overturn the result.
What should be painfully obvious to even the dimmest Brexiteers by now is "the result" can never be delivered.
£350m for the NHS can never be delivered, nor can any of the other wholly contradictory wishes that different people voted for without pissing off another section.
It's not "sore losers" overturning the result, it's reality impinging upon the fantasy
There will be tears before bedtime.
It will be amusing, and informative, to see which bell enders turn up today
What the public thought about Brexit the morning after.....
I like the bloke who looks about 50 saying, "I'm of an age where I remember us before we went into the EU. I didn't want to go in in the first place..."
A reminder of the truth of Feynman's observation that 'you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool'.
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent. 2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good. 3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
Israeli hummous and falafals are indeed delicious. The Sabra brand is imported and sold in Sainsbury's, Far better than UK made. The Sabra Baba Ganoush is worth seeking out too.
The campaigns are asymmetric. People roughly know what the status quo looks like while those arguing for change have to paint a picture of what it will be like. Leave lied more than Remain because it had to lie more to win. It may not make them intrinsically more dishonest.
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
After Cromer this weekend, if they started with Irish traveller families, they'd win in North Norfolk hands down.
Last week our village has had a ?fourth? visit from travellers in a few months. This time they've set up camp on the playing fields, which means that all the matches due to be played at the weekend were cancelled. They hadn't left as of yesterday, so I don't know what state they've left the ground in. They parked around the edges (I charitably assume in an attempt to save the pitches), but they put horses on the pitches and their young 'uns were driving motorbkes and quadbikes across them.
Needless to say, the local forums aren't exactly singing their praises.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter. Cameron is to be applauded in not playing on the xenophobia (as you mentioned below), even if that might have helped a victory.
"The world is changing over from ICE based road transport, to electrical" certainly doesn't look like a lie to me, and Turkey's accession procedure (at the relevant time, not now after the Erdogan reverse coup) looked as far along to me as the electricification of cars does now. This really is a "what is the meaning of 'is'" debate.
The morning after I'd just won enough (cough- including at 15/1 on Leave winning at 10.01 on June 23rd) to cover all my historic losses and cover a new super dooper IMAC - but I was pretty bewildered, and knackered.
I reread the Brexit vote overnight threads the other day. The tension. The champagne socialists rooting for Remainers in the shires to have come out in droves. The flounces. It was much more fun to read in hindsight than at the time!
For example increasing student tuition fees was a very populist policy among university vice-chancellors.
Just after the weaselling Lord Adonis attacked Vice Chancellor's salaries, the BBC were forced to publish their stars salaries .
It was very interesting. Who was paid the most?
Even the highest paid Vice Chancellor (a woman) was earning a fraction of the highest paid media stars (all men).
Average cost of VCs pay is 250k. How does that compare to pay of people at the top of the media and the boardrooms? Average cost of boardroom pay is 4.5 million.
Sure, Vice Chancellors have been a bit greedy, but that is small greed compared to the greed elsewhere.
The campaigns are asymmetric. People roughly know what the status quo looks like while those arguing for change have to paint a picture of what it will be like. Leave lied more than Remain because it had to lie more to win. It may not make them intrinsically more dishonest.
Leave had to lie more to themselves. That makes them intrinsically more dangerous.
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent. 2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good. 3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
Israeli hummous and falafals are indeed delicious. The Sabra brand is imported and sold in Sainsbury's, Far better than UK made. The Sabra Baba Ganoush is worth seeking out too.
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
I hated hummus before my trip to Israel last year.
And now I am back and know what can be done, I hate the stuff you can buy here still.
But while I was there, ahhh...
Quite. I don't think I'll ever be able to eat the stuff we get at home.
The service has varied from the charming to the truculent/ if I must serve you I s'pose I will, with rather more of the latter than I expected in a country with a large tourist industry.
But the vibe in Tel Aviv at night on the beachfront is something else......
The flag at our embassy looks like a dishcloth. Surely the FO can find a flag which looks clean and has been ironed?
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
There are lessons for today.
Indeed. The reverse was seen in the UK with the demise of the automatic car wash following the influx of cheap Eastern European labour in the 2000s. Cheap labour replacing capital.
Economies which become dependent on a supply of cheap labour fuelled by unskilled migration are characterised by a lack of capital investment and stagnating productivity and real wages.
Indeed, I’d be mightily peeved if I’d invested a hundred grand or two on a nice car wash, only to see my returns greatly diminished by gangs of mostly illegal and underpaid immigrants.
One positive consequence of reducing unskillled immigration should be reinvestment in capital equipment leading to labour productivity gains.
The morning after I'd just won enough (cough- including at 15/1 on Leave winning at 10.01 on June 23rd) to cover all my historic losses and cover a new super dooper IMAC - but I was pretty bewildered, and knackered.
I reread the Brexit vote overnight threads the other day. The tension. The champagne socialists rooting for Remainers in the shires to have come out in droves. The flounces. It was much more fun to read in hindsight than at the time!
... the daily repeats are becoming a bit of a bore though. Hence many people have left the site
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter. Cameron is to be applauded in not playing on the xenophobia (as you mentioned below), even if that might have helped a victory.
"The world is changing over from ICE based road transport, to electrical" certainly doesn't look like a lie to me, and Turkey's accession procedure (at the relevant time, not now after the Erdogan reverse coup) looked as far along to me as the electricification of cars does now. This really is a "what is the meaning of 'is'" debate.
"looked as far along to me as the electricification of cars does now."
LOL. Then you know little about either topic. Besides, that's an absolutely ridiculous comparison. One is political, the other science and engineering with a small pit of politics to lubricate the change.
Turkey's accession to the EU was moribund long before our referendum. Their progress towards meeting the requirements had been glacially slow (see my previous link), and there was a vast amount of reticence amongst certain EU members to their joining.
I suspect that was a major factor, but the response from the public is ...well, don't pussyfoot around in the first place. You have a riot taking place, don't sit on the side lines filling out a risk assessment form, deal with it.
In Cromer, they're unlikely to have the hardware, so the public will have to wait until they leave.
With football hooligans in the seventies, they always had the equipment and the will.
The Opinium poll linked by Carlotta in the last thread shows things very stable - Labour +3, up 1 on last Opinium, with May fractionally ahead on best PM. Interestingly, relatively few people about a quarter) strongly disapprove of either leader - I think the general view of May is that she's a bit meh, but there was pretty entrenched disapproval of Corbyn a while back which seems to have largely evaporated.
I don't think you've convinced ydoethur, though...
I think it is fair to say that even if the good Dr Palmer and I were on speaking terms he would be on to a lost cause there!
Mind you, Corbyn's better than some of the UKIP leadership candidates. He's possibly slightly better than Michael Gove as well.
"Gay donkey raped my horse" man is campaigning for mass removals of non ethnic Brits, aiming for net emigration of a million per year.
I am not a fan of repatriation at all but surely if he was going to target anyone gypsies, Bulgarians or radical Islamists would gain far more support than British Indians, most of whom are hard working and law abiding?
Are all the Indian medical staff in in the NHS going to be encouraged to leave - in which case we would have no health service.
No idea why you are commenting on a bloke that will never remotely influence govt. Its no better than "a boke in the pub says....."
I suspect when kippers start talking about repatriation that their 1950s mindset leads them to think that anyone not white-skinned is straight off the Windrush; in other words, Mr gay donkey would be surprised and disappointed at the number of brown and black people remaining in the country after every single person who could be repatriated, had been.
The bloke is full on mental, have you seen him speak? Ukip should have just jacked it in when Farage quit as leader, they are following the same well trodden path of a football team who go downhill after a successful manager leaves. The 2014-2016 era was their 15 mins of fame
He said Indians, not Pakistanis ! He clearly does not want to deport our off-spinner whose all round record is better than Stokes, few people notices that.
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent. 2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good. 3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
Israeli hummous and falafals are indeed delicious. The Sabra brand is imported and sold in Sainsbury's, Far better than UK made. The Sabra Baba Ganoush is worth seeking out too.
Does it say "Made in Israel" ?
Falafels are a bit meh, IMO.
There has been criticism of some of Netanhanyu's ministers and his son re their comments on Charlottesville. The Jerusalem Post was utterly clear that Trump was wrong in what he said.
Still it is also true that some of those who critcise Nazis for their anti-Semitism and supremacism and hate speech are a bit more equivocal about criticising other groups about their anti-Semitism and supremacism and hate speech.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
More ridiculous duplicity, there was never a pledge from anybody - read the bus. The successful message was that we have better things to do with our money than give it to Malta.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
I hated hummus before my trip to Israel last year.
And now I am back and know what can be done, I hate the stuff you can buy here still.
But while I was there, ahhh...
The hummus in Britain is horrible compared to what’s served in the Middle East. It should be something very simple to make but there’s huge variations between ME and Europe (and USA, which is even worse like most of their crap food).
Dominic Cummings made the same point. The referendum was won by £350 million for the NHS. Since then the myth has developed, and has been nurtured, that it was about immigration. It suits the government, and those members of Leave in the Cabinet, because they have no intention of stumping up the cash.
What Cummings said was that he always knew the figure was highly disputable, but he used it anyway so that his opponents spent their time actually defining the figure - wasting their own resources doing his job for him.
It was a clever political strategy as it turned out. Had he said £250M (which is more like the real amount), it wouldn't have been disputed and the argument would have moved straight back to "Doomed, we're all doomed", and Leave would have lost to the large powers in the mainstream media (BBC/SKY) who were pro remain (certainly up to the 28 days) and incredibly dominant, way above the impact of the news print world now.
I was against it at the time, and I was working with the Liberal Leave rather against it - but I'm not inside the bubble in the same way, and of our group only Roland Smith had any TV time to press a more accurate case.
It was a brilliant piece of politicking by Dominic Cummings. Regardless of which side you are on, it is hard not to deny that the guerilla campaign led by Cummings completely out-manoeuvred the Remain campaign.
After reading Tim Shipman's book, I'm also convinced Leave would win another referendum by a bigger margin. I've never been particularly moved by the EU. I don't like Juncker et al, and see it as an elitist, anti-democratic institution, but I'm not all that arsed either way (I wanted Brexit to win at the time but massively expected Remain to win). But Shipman's book brought home to me the level of passion out there in the country. If the country was asked to vote again I think Leavers would win by a heavier margin. Remain had the whole establishment on their side, completely controlled the airwaves, had threats and apocalyptic visions to threaten the electorate with... they made virtually no attempt to talk up the EU's positives (and how could they in the next campaign, now that the public has had 12 months of seeing what an intimidating (let's be honest... fairly anti-British) organisation it is), and the economic collapse hasn't followed. Most working class voters, in poor areas, will probably find life exactly as I do 12 months on.. Our factory has been busier, if anything, and we've been taking on staff. On balance, not much change, and positive on the whole. Nobody ever mentions Brexit.
It'd be difficult to see what hand the Remainers would play next time, apart from, we'd better stay because a) the government is crap and b) the EU will make life really difficult for us otherwise.
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent. 2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good. 3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
Israeli hummous and falafals are indeed delicious. The Sabra brand is imported and sold in Sainsbury's, Far better than UK made. The Sabra Baba Ganoush is worth seeking out too.
Nazis who support Israel are good Nazis those that don't aren't.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
OK, then, at what point in the joining process does a country start to join, if not at the start?
At what point in a job application process is it correct to say that you are joining the company you're applying to?
Are we sure that Turkey, under Erdogan or the AK party, actually wants to join the EU ? They have their customs union. For other goods and services, they have full control.
Brexiters please note. [ Isam: Sorry! I just mentioned Brexit ]
Mr. Surbiton, could be wrong but I think the accession process for Turkey officially stopped a few months after the referendum (unsure whether it was a decision taken by the EU or the Turks).
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
I hated hummus before my trip to Israel last year.
And now I am back and know what can be done, I hate the stuff you can buy here still.
But while I was there, ahhh...
The hummus in Britain is horrible compared to what’s served in the Middle East. It should be something very simple to make but there’s huge variations between ME and Europe (and USA, which is even worse like most of their crap food).
You can get great hummus in middle eastern delicatessens. Certainly, in London.
"Following the referendum result, that group of Leavers appealed to Remainers to make common cause with them to secure an EEA-type deal for now. "
Not after - Before. The last weekend before the vote, ASI released polling via the Telegraph showing that an interim EEA deal was both popular and acceptable to a large number of voters across the political spectrum. It was embargoed until that last Sunday for maximum effect.
All chance of an EEA Brexit went out the window when the Remain die-hards made clear they will never stop doing everything in their power to return to Brussels rule. I would have been very comfortable with a 5-10 year transition until the scale of those wanting to sabotage Brexit became clearly. Now I don't trust it would truly be a transition.
Yes, I think that has been a key factor. The use of an EEA transition now will be only by a 'Shadow' agreement, utilising free trade rules under Gatt Art 24 (interim agreements while negotiating an FTA). This will allow a sunset clause on this, securing eventually a full exit from EU legislative direct influence.
Even leavers understand that you never really leave the influence of such a large trade block, but you can exert much more control over domestic policy areas where the EU influence was not a positive, and over time the EU will lose influence as the rest of the world develops its industrial strength.
Yes, but in order to join, Turkey would have to go through a somewhat painful transformation to meet the acquis. That transformation would have been in *our* interests, and I believe in theirs.
Would you have preferred Cameron to call for no talks, and for Turkey to p*ss off into another sphere of interest such as Russia? How would that be in our interests?
Indeed so, but the attitude of certain Remain campaigners that it was utter bollocks that Turkey was trying to join the EU, and we should all have known that, and statements saying that Turkey was joining the EU were lies, is somewhat disingenuous at best.
No, the lie was that 'Turkey is joining the EU'.
They were not. They were at the very early stages of negotiating to join, which is a very different matter.
No, it isn't. They were in the early stages of the process of joining, therefore saying "Turkey is joining the EU" is not a lie.
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
Rubbish. They were talking (negotiating) about joining, and the final decision about them joining is, and was, very far off in the future. It also faced rather significant hurdles in the form of Turkish and EU votes.
OK, then, at what point in the joining process does a country start to join, if not at the start?
At what point in a job application process is it correct to say that you are joining the company you're applying to?
Are we sure that Turkey, under Erdogan or the AK party, actually wants to join the EU ? They have their customs union. For other goods and services, they have full control.
Brexiters please note. [ Isam: Sorry! I just mentioned Brexit ]
I think a customs union + free trade in services + ability to sign own trade deals + immigration controls could work very well for us. My main reluctance is that it stops us being able to bring in food tariff-free from Africa, which continues to harm African economic growth.
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
I hated hummus before my trip to Israel last year.
And now I am back and know what can be done, I hate the stuff you can buy here still.
But while I was there, ahhh...
Quite. I don't think I'll ever be able to eat the stuff we get at home.
The service has varied from the charming to the truculent/ if I must serve you I s'pose I will, with rather more of the latter than I expected in a country with a large tourist industry.
But the vibe in Tel Aviv at night on the beachfront is something else......
The flag at our embassy looks like a dishcloth. Surely the FO can find a flag which looks clean and has been ironed?
I split my trip between Nazareth, as a base for exploring the north, and Jerusalem. Absolutely amazing experience but the Israelis could really be quite unpleasant as you say. The Palestinian Arabs in the north were much friendlier.
Hope you continue to have a great visit. Must confess I'm glad I went last year not this.
@foxinsoxuk thank you for the tip I will check that out. Not that I think hummus is at the top of their import list in Cannock, but you never know!
The morning after I'd just won enough (cough- including at 15/1 on Leave winning at 10.01 on June 23rd) to cover all my historic losses and cover a new super dooper IMAC - but I was pretty bewildered, and knackered.
I reread the Brexit vote overnight threads the other day. The tension. The champagne socialists rooting for Remainers in the shires to have come out in droves. The flounces. It was much more fun to read in hindsight than at the time!
... the daily repeats are becoming a bit of a bore though. Hence many people have left the site
It's August, people are on holiday, no news, nowt happening. Things will spice up a bit in the conference season.
It'd be difficult to see what hand the Remainers would play next time
It would depend on the teams, again.
Many of the prominent leavers have disowned their own campaign messages.
A ruthless remain campaign would play their "change of heart" over and over again.
The interesting question of course is which side would BoZo be on?
The problem for Remain would be that their scare stories have already been shown to be drivel. There was no immediate year long recession, there was no interest rate spike, there was no mass unemployment.
The problem for Remain would be that their scare stories have already been shown to be drivel. There was no immediate year long recession, there was no interest rate spike, there was no mass unemployment.
There has been an immediate and lasting reduction in wealth, but that is irrelevant.
If Remain want to run a campaign as successful as Leave, they will focus on all of the prominent leavers whining about Brexit
Do you have a source for the "vast majority"? I think that is incorrect.
If I understand things right, we only bring in tariff-free food from the basket case economies (like Zimbabwe). As soon as an African economy gets its act together and starts growing to a lower middle income level, the tariffs go up again. It's hard to think of a bigger disincentive to economic reform.
The EU also has quotas for imports as well as tariffs, which are even worse.
He said Indians, not Pakistanis ! He clearly does not want to deport our off-spinner whose all round record is better than Stokes, few people notices that.
I notice. In fact, I still don't get why he's at 8 not 5 and was passed over for the vice-captaincy. But then much about this England side puzzles me. Would you believe, the selectors actually seem to think Dawid Malan is a batsman? No I don't get it either!
Sadly there are no middle eastern delicatessens in Cannock. It is a strange oversight, but there you are. I will try Lichfield!
With that I must go. Have a good morning everyone.
Do you have a source for the "vast majority"? I think that is incorrect.
If I understand things right, we only bring in tariff-free food from the basket case economies (like Zimbabwe). As soon as an African economy gets its act together and starts growing to a lower middle income level, the tariffs go up again. It's hard to think of a bigger disincentive to economic reform.
The EU also has quotas for imports as well as tariffs, which are even worse.
Pick an African country you consider isn't a basket case and we'll check.
You can read about the EU's partnership agreements here.
I thought the £350m suggestion was utterly brilliant - The fact Remainers are still whining about it shows what a masterstroke it was.
Remain had nothing to offer but threats and intimidation. Leave was trying to put forward some positive suggestions of what life could be like outside the EU. That's why leave won.
Weirdly Theresa then went on to repeat all of Remains errors in election while Jezza copied Leave - £350m for NHS = Free university tuition for everyone.
Comments
You miss the point of the TM campaign. It was to use the supposed popular May over unpopular Corbyn to ram through proposals to increase austerity and put up taxes. Essentially it was the "Punishment Budget Manifesto". Increased NHS spending did not fit that agenda, and indeed the opposite. The pledge to protect the NHS from the effects of austerity was amongst the things dropped.
We are yet to see the populists in power in the UK, but it looks much more like it will be the left wing populists that win. The wave of populists will only break when (as @ydoethur says) they fail to deliver in power, and break up in shambles.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40673694
It turns out that despite electricity being available, it would have taken too much change and factory owners had enough cheap labour they didn't need to so they resisted change. Innovation only took place in practice when the US restricted immigration in the 1920s causing wages to surge and more investment to take place.
There are lessons for today.
Dave met net gains at every general election by promising to ringfence the NHS budget, no wonder the NHS didn't get a look in at the 2017 general election under Mrs May.
I understand your pain. I have grandchildren, who when they've been active all day suddenly become very tearful at bed time. A "there, there" and a quick cuddle are needed. Laughing at them is counter-productive.
There, there, Scott.
Cameron took the Tories from opposition to government.
Mrs May took the Tories from a majority to a minority.
https://twitter.com/InnerPartisan/status/899168554767056896
As someone mentioned up thread, the latest trouble caused by immigrants came from the Irish, I don’t think anyone’s about to suggest we deport all the Irish - although we should quickly deport criminal foreigners of any nationality as they come out of prison.
Personally i think Labours polling numbers would reduce, because a second referendum may not be wanted by many people. Those who favour Brexit but generally support Labour are not going to be happy. Those against Brexit might already be built into Labour polling, with not many extra votes and many might not want a divisive referendum. Those neutral on Brexit might well be people who don't support referendums and expect Parliament to take decisions.
At some point Labours position on Brexit is going to be under a spotlight. I am not sure Corbyn and Starmer share the same position on many issues. Labours Autumn conference might well vote for motions that Corbyn disagrees with. Labours membership are going to want Corbyn to support either a very soft Brexit with full EU single market/customs area membership or no Brexit at all. Problem for Corbyn is keeping party members and Labour supporters happy on Brexit. Might prove impossible.
In reality of course ringfencing the NHS budget is grossly inadequate given the rising demand, cost of new treatments and his idiotic Cancer Drugs Fund.
https://www.axios.com/trump-to-announce-afghanistan-plan-monday-in-tv-address-2475159058.html
Given the splits in his party he's actually handling this matter quite adroitly, and it is unlikely they will be given the same publicity as Tory splits.
I would remind you as well that James Purnell made similar claims about Tory policies in advance of the general election of 2010. My abiding memory of this - which happened a few days before he resigned - was of Macdonnell, sitting next to him, putting his head in his hands in disgust at such stupidity. Opposition policies do not get substantial scrutiny except in elections, and then only if the government makes the effort. Otherwise, they are background noise.
I think that an admission that one was wrong can gain one some credibility, though it depends who is doing it and the reasons they give for their change of mind. It's a grown up and mature way of behaving but I don't see anyone with the necessary leadership skills prepared to do this or prepared to speak some hard truths to the country about what is involved in Brexit and about the trade-offs needed and why they are needed. I do think that immigration has to be part of that debate and it needs to involve 3 aspects:-
1. Control of immigration ie who makes the decisions is not the same as reduction. There seems to be a consistent confusion between the two.
2. Who is let in is more important than pure numbers. In short, 1000 hard working skilled doctors are infinitely preferable to 1000 unemployed Islamist youths.
3. Fairly sharing the costs of immigration - as well as its benefits - is largely within our control and needs to be addressed. The EU is largely irrelevant to that process though it has been used as a scapegoat.
I also think there is another - probably very small - group who should be involved in this debate and it is those (like @rcs100 ) who think that there are fundamental incompatibilities between the political cultures of Britain and most of Continental Europe and that the current EU structure is pushing them into an unhappy and, in the long-term, untenable marriage and that some alternative relationship - something short of the F*** You exit beloved of the Faragistes - is needed.
But its populists for the 1% not the proles.
For example increasing student tuition fees was a very populist policy among university vice-chancellors.
There were complaints from a Cromer restaurant that the police sat outside and did nothing about the problems. Now, where else were there complaints that the police sat on their hands, possibly inhibited by being called racist?
My son's Irish passport has just arrived - he works in Denmark and it's for convenience, he says. My wife has just renewed hers. I'm surrounded by 'em.
I think we're looking at something similar for UKIP.
You could easily write an article stating how 'early adopters' of electric and (later) the Internet got their fingers burnt from the immature new technology.
The lifespan of equipment also comes into it. The article ridiculously states that electric motors for factories came in in 1881, yet by 1900 only 5% of mechanical power came from them. The concept that the industrial infrastructure could have supported much more than that is laughable, as is the idea that factories would routinely rip our fairly new equipment (often with a lifespan of 40+ years) to replace it.
Inertia is sometimes understandable, and even warranted.
Mr. CD13, although that's infuriating, thanks for posting that comment. This 'cultural sensitivities' bullshit is not enamouring the police with the public.
Mr. HYUFD, really? Would've thought Islamic terrorists/radicals would be most unpopular by a mile.
Economies which become dependent on a supply of cheap labour fuelled by unskilled migration are characterised by a lack of capital investment and stagnating productivity and real wages.
More on their background here:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005395
The fees bit was how to pay for the populist bit.
Edited extra bit: I don't think Cameron shifted his thinking away from a traditional campaign approach enough, possibly because he had to balance his party and the country, but perhaps also because the one man, one vote and binary nature of a referendum is significantly different to a General Election.
What the public thought about Brexit the morning after.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aRChOqIdEA
1. There are a lot of French here - and not just holidaymakers. The papers have articles about some of the red tape stopping French nurses from worling in the Israeli health service. I find it depressing that one group which has indisputably contributed so much to European civilisation should feel that it may no longer have a future in our continent.
2. There has been extensive coverage of (a) the Charlottesville affair with universal disgust at Trump's moral equivocations and the use of Nazi flags at the demos. The focus has been, understandably, more on the anti-Semitism of the marchers (the references to not letting Jews take over and Trump's daughter being married to a Jew) than on the Civil War aspects. And (b) on the survey of British Jews and their fears for the future. Britain - and the Lanour party - do not come out of that looking good.
3. I am surprised that the Spanish authorities have been so quick to say that they have closed down the cell which carried out the Barcelona/Cambrils atrocities when the driver of the van ie the principal murderer is still at large. Where is he? Who is hiding him? What other associates might he have? Etc etc. Closed down, my arse! Sure - we don't want to live in a state of terror but a little less denial about the risk by the authorities is perhaps warranted, no?
And, pace @AlistairMeeks, no larks tongues here. Though the hummus is a revelation......
Probably in all cases, yes, the politicians were at least misleading.
But, in each case, the fault lies with their opponents
If Corbyn's promises for students don't add, it is up to the Tories to expose that.
If Leave's promises for the NHS didn't add up, it was up to Remain to expose that.
The Tories didn't. Remain didn't. Consequently, I have little sympathy with this line of argument.
And now I am back and know what can be done, I hate the stuff you can buy here still.
But while I was there, ahhh...
Misleading? Sure. But if misleading political posters were banned, there wouldn't be any left.
When they did turn up an hour later, it was four vans full of TSG who did an admirable job of emptying around 600 of them out. They said that from experience if they’d sent a couple of cars round after the initial call, then the cars would have finished upside down and on fire with the coppers in serious danger of injury. A scary night!
£350m for the NHS can never be delivered, nor can any of the other wholly contradictory wishes that different people voted for without pissing off another section.
It's not "sore losers" overturning the result, it's reality impinging upon the fantasy
There will be tears before bedtime.
It will be amusing, and informative, to see which bell enders turn up today
A reminder of the truth of Feynman's observation that 'you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool'.
https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/899220874921992192
Israeli hummous and falafals are indeed delicious. The Sabra brand is imported and sold in Sainsbury's, Far better than UK made. The Sabra Baba Ganoush is worth seeking out too.
If the Tories expose a Labour lie in a campaign, the expectation is Labour will stop saying it.
Remain pointed out the £350m was a lie. Leave pushed it even harder, until the day after the vote when they said they didn't mean it really...
Needless to say, the local forums aren't exactly singing their praises.
I reread the Brexit vote overnight threads the other day. The tension. The champagne socialists rooting for Remainers in the shires to have come out in droves. The flounces. It was much more fun to read in hindsight than at the time!
It was very interesting. Who was paid the most?
Even the highest paid Vice Chancellor (a woman) was earning a fraction of the highest paid media stars (all men).
Average cost of VCs pay is 250k. How does that compare to pay of people at the top of the media and the boardrooms? Average cost of boardroom pay is 4.5 million.
Sure, Vice Chancellors have been a bit greedy, but that is small greed compared to the greed elsewhere.
The service has varied from the charming to the truculent/ if I must serve you I s'pose I will, with rather more of the latter than I expected in a country with a large tourist industry.
But the vibe in Tel Aviv at night on the beachfront is something else......
The flag at our embassy looks like a dishcloth. Surely the FO can find a flag which looks clean and has been ironed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union
One positive consequence of reducing unskillled immigration should be reinvestment in capital equipment leading to labour productivity gains.
https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/889830144684281856
LOL. Then you know little about either topic. Besides, that's an absolutely ridiculous comparison. One is political, the other science and engineering with a small pit of politics to lubricate the change.
Turkey's accession to the EU was moribund long before our referendum. Their progress towards meeting the requirements had been glacially slow (see my previous link), and there was a vast amount of reticence amongst certain EU members to their joining.
That's one of them mettyfors, isn't it?
I suspect that was a major factor, but the response from the public is ...well, don't pussyfoot around in the first place. You have a riot taking place, don't sit on the side lines filling out a risk assessment form, deal with it.
In Cromer, they're unlikely to have the hardware, so the public will have to wait until they leave.
With football hooligans in the seventies, they always had the equipment and the will.
There has been criticism of some of Netanhanyu's ministers and his son re their comments on Charlottesville. The Jerusalem Post was utterly clear that Trump was wrong in what he said.
Still it is also true that some of those who critcise Nazis for their anti-Semitism and supremacism and hate speech are a bit more equivocal about criticising other groups about their anti-Semitism and supremacism and hate speech.
Strange bedfellows indeed.....
After reading Tim Shipman's book, I'm also convinced Leave would win another referendum by a bigger margin. I've never been particularly moved by the EU. I don't like Juncker et al, and see it as an elitist, anti-democratic institution, but I'm not all that arsed either way (I wanted Brexit to win at the time but massively expected Remain to win). But Shipman's book brought home to me the level of passion out there in the country. If the country was asked to vote again I think Leavers would win by a heavier margin. Remain had the whole establishment on their side, completely controlled the airwaves, had threats and apocalyptic visions to threaten the electorate with... they made virtually no attempt to talk up the EU's positives (and how could they in the next campaign, now that the public has had 12 months of seeing what an intimidating (let's be honest... fairly anti-British) organisation it is), and the economic collapse hasn't followed. Most working class voters, in poor areas, will probably find life exactly as I do 12 months on.. Our factory has been busier, if anything, and we've been taking on staff. On balance, not much change, and positive on the whole. Nobody ever mentions Brexit.
It'd be difficult to see what hand the Remainers would play next time, apart from, we'd better stay because a) the government is crap and b) the EU will make life really difficult for us otherwise.
Brexiters please note. [ Isam: Sorry! I just mentioned Brexit ]
Even leavers understand that you never really leave the influence of such a large trade block, but you can exert much more control over domestic policy areas where the EU influence was not a positive, and over time the EU will lose influence as the rest of the world develops its industrial strength.
Many of the prominent leavers have disowned their own campaign messages.
A ruthless remain campaign would play their "change of heart" over and over again.
The interesting question of course is which side would BoZo be on?
Hope you continue to have a great visit. Must confess I'm glad I went last year not this.
@foxinsoxuk thank you for the tip I will check that out. Not that I think hummus is at the top of their import list in Cannock, but you never know!
Just to pick a random example: tomatoes from Zimbabwe - 0%.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=en&SimDate=20170821&Area=ZW&Taric=0702000007
If Remain want to run a campaign as successful as Leave, they will focus on all of the prominent leavers whining about Brexit
If I understand things right, we only bring in tariff-free food from the basket case economies (like Zimbabwe). As soon as an African economy gets its act together and starts growing to a lower middle income level, the tariffs go up again. It's hard to think of a bigger disincentive to economic reform.
The EU also has quotas for imports as well as tariffs, which are even worse.
Sadly there are no middle eastern delicatessens in Cannock. It is a strange oversight, but there you are. I will try Lichfield!
With that I must go. Have a good morning everyone.
You can read about the EU's partnership agreements here.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/development/economic-partnerships/index_en.htm
Remain had nothing to offer but threats and intimidation. Leave was trying to put forward some positive suggestions of what life could be like outside the EU. That's why leave won.
Weirdly Theresa then went on to repeat all of Remains errors in election while Jezza copied Leave - £350m for NHS = Free university tuition for everyone.