Rigby saying Govt could come in for criticism if some councils evacuate and others don't.
I thought we were meant to have local democracy - should we just scrap local councils completely and run everything from the centre?
Of course Govt / Parliament must set laws / standards but surely local councils must manage their own areas.
Rigby is a one person expert and opinion former ( in her own mind). Earlier she said the council was acting on government advice received a few days ago and to evacuate if necessary
There is literally no end to how much you can worry about fire safety. I'm sitting in our flat which I got rewired last year. In the downstairs flat the electrics literally haven't been touched in 60 years. Her appliances look very old as well. Should I be worrying about that? In the last flat we lived in the place was full of alcoholics who did things like fall asleep while cooking themselves breakfast at 4 am in the morning, resulting in the fire brigade called out regularly. We were on the top floor and there was no easy way down if the stairwell filled up with smoke. Having looked in to this, I think the requirements of the 2005 legislation are basically sound, they require most multi occupancy buildings to have fire risk assessments undertaken. The trouble is that many buildings don't have the assessments undertaken and the whole thing is not taken particularly seriously by freeholders/ owners. Red tape/bureaucracy. I wonder if 1960's high rise council blocks are really viable as low cost housing. The cost of retrofitting them to current building regs standards for new buildings of the same size must be enormous.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Can anyone explain the reason why we would want ECJ to have jurisdiction. Is there any benefit to us? Why is Corbyn enthusiastic?
Because then they'll give us a trade deal.
Can you imagine that the ECJ can rule on some UK citizens rights over and above our Supreme Court.
The Country will just not accept it
We'll see.
Genuinely do you think the population will accept an outside jurisdiction for some of it's ciitizens
It is the EU. I don't recall them giving us any problems for the last 40 years. And we'll be rejoining soon.
I would have absolutely no preference between the UK Supreme Court or the ECJ - why should I? I believe they are equally likely to be filled with fair-minded, knowledgable people who are committed to serving others and applying the law. I'd also recognise that both have a (probably equally) very small chance of being corrupted. I doubt I am alone in that view.
Can anyone explain the reason why we would want ECJ to have jurisdiction. Is there any benefit to us? Why is Corbyn enthusiastic?
Because then they'll give us a trade deal.
Can you imagine that the ECJ can rule on some UK citizens rights over and above our Supreme Court.
The Country will just not accept it
We'll see.
Genuinely do you think the population will accept an outside jurisdiction for some of it's ciitizens
It is the EU. I don't recall them giving us any problems for the last 40 years. And we'll be rejoining soon.
I would have absolutely no preference between the UK Supreme Court or the ECJ - why should I? I believe they are equally likely to be filled with fair-minded, knowledgable people who are committed to serving others and applying the law. I'd also recognise that both have a (probably equally) very small chance of being corrupted. I doubt I am alone in that view.
I would have no preference between them (although ironically because I believe each to be equally useless and corrupt). However I am a strong believer that everyone is equal before the law. One legal system, enforced by one legislative body. States that have more than one are not sovereign states and more pertinently are not fair or just states. It's rather disturbing that the obvious parallels to the system the EU is proposing that spring to mind are apartheid South Africa, the West Bank and Troubles-era Northern Ireland.
Of course the EU is a long way from being Israel, or Pretoria or even the Maze. But it sets an unhappy precedent and is an absolutely ridiculous demand. If anything could make me regret my Remain vote it is the arrogant and petulant way the EU has behaved since the vote over issues like this.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Yeah, it seems a bit rushed. What's the urgency tonight? They could have employed a rentacop fire warden per floor to keep watch over the weekend while they organise things. Bizarre overreaction to me.
Blimey - live on Sky now - two lads heard the evacuation from Sky news
Wow, Sky news are loving this. Let's be fair these guys say they have been told nothing and then go on the tell the news they have been told to go to the local community centre to be rehouse. I really think we need to be a little more calm in these situation. 24 hour news channels only exchabeate the issue. I've even just heard on Sky news COBR should be convieved and that Mrs May should be taking charge. Please let's get a grip.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Yeah, it seems a bit rushed. What's the urgency tonight? They could have employed a rentacop fire warden per floor to keep watch over the weekend while they organise things. Bizarre overreaction to me.
Confusion over whether this is a mandatory evacuation. If not mandatory almost inexplicable it's been done on a Friday evening
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Agreed. What has happened in the last 24 hours to change their minds?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Agreed. What has happened in the last 24 hours to change their minds?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
The fallout from all this will be something to behold. There's talk of gas pipes in the stairwells on Sky from one resident which would make things very confusing and fractious in most blocks in the land.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Agreed. What has happened in the last 24 hours to change their minds?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
The fallout from all this will be something to behold. There's talk of gas pipes in the stairwells on Sky from one resident which would make things very confusing and fractious in most blocks in the land.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Agreed. What has happened in the last 24 hours to change their minds?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
The fallout from all this will be something to behold. There's talk of gas pipes in the stairwells on Sky from one resident which would make things very confusing and fractious in most blocks in the land.
That doesn't explain why they were claiming some of these blocks were safe just three hours ago, then changed their minds. It seems improbable to say the least that they will have found all of them simultaneously unsafe from a gas problem.
I suppose we are sure that it's genuine and not some kind of scam? I'm past being astonished.
I agree with the man saying now that it's ridiculous.
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Yeah, it seems a bit rushed. What's the urgency tonight? They could have employed a rentacop fire warden per floor to keep watch over the weekend while they organise things. Bizarre overreaction to me.
Confusion over whether this is a mandatory evacuation. If not mandatory almost inexplicable it's been done on a Friday evening
It's the combination of the newly revealed fire risk and the ongoing terrorist threat.
ECJ has the potential to be a running low level sore for decades. Extra judiciality and the resentment that will cause and all that. Better surely both sides compromise on a joint court for "settled migrants"?
Lots of criticism (not all unjustified) we don't collectively know what we want from our relationship, but does the EU the other way round?
I predicted that Brexit would lead to Corbyn becoming PM and that Trump would win. I predict that Brexit will be crushed under its own weight and that Eurosceptics won't show their face in mainstream British politics again.
Im still waiting for the plague frogs and te rivers turning to blood
I'm still waiting for this:
' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.
It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.
The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.
In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '
' Manufacturing firms reported that both their total and export order books had strengthened to multi-decade highs in June, according to the CBI’s latest Industrial Trends Survey.
•27% of manufacturers reported total order books to be above normal, and 12% said they were below normal, giving a rounded balance of +16%. This was the highest level seen in nearly three decades, since August 1988 (+17%) •23% of firms said their export order books were above normal, and 10% said they were below normal, giving a balance of +13%. This was the highest balance since June 1995 (+20%) '
One for the Blairites. Camden council leader Georgia Gould is Lord Goulds daughter.
Unbelievable. Well, she's got herself a tough job now. I hope she's up to it.
Don't think she's made many friends in the tower blocks tonight, although they might see her side of it after the initial scare of tonight subsides and the logistics are right.
To be fair, she fronted up to the media tonight. DCLG needs to coordinate with other councils to make sure that if others think they need to do this too, that the decision is coordinated so as not to create further panic.
Oh she's very impressive on camera, but the haste this is being done in is weird, residents being interviewed knew nothing until they put the news on half an hour ago and had letters this morning just saying the cladding would be fixed.
Agreed. What has happened in the last 24 hours to change their minds?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
The fallout from all this will be something to behold. There's talk of gas pipes in the stairwells on Sky from one resident which would make things very confusing and fractious in most blocks in the land.
That doesn't explain why they were claiming some of these blocks were safe just three hours ago, then changed their minds. It seems improbable to say the least that they will have found all of them simultaneously unsafe.
I suppose we are sure that it's genuine and not some kind of scam? I'm past being astonished.
I agree with the man saying now that it's ridiculous.
Resident now on saying this is utterly ludicrous, a total over reaction. Private tenant, not social housing. Georgia Gould and Co have made an awfully big call this evening. Guy told there are air beds at Swiss Cottage 'I'm not sleeping on an air bed'
Rigby saying Govt could come in for criticism if some councils evacuate and others don't.
I thought we were meant to have local democracy - should we just scrap local councils completely and run everything from the centre?
Of course Govt / Parliament must set laws / standards but surely local councils must manage their own areas.
One thing I can guarantee is, no matter what happens, no matter how well or badly handled, that TMay and the Tories will come in for criticism.
Tricky for Lab front bench to do so whilst they're all in a field in the west country somewhere.... ....
Forming a thicket?
Think Corbyn et al living it up at Glastonbury tomorrow may not be too helpful to him
Sky even asking if something more 'sinister' is going on - no idea what they mean by that comment
One of my colleagues, who was a Corbynista long before it is fashionable, told me Corbyn has not had a great couple of weeks since the election. He said Corbyn has looked like a typical politician - greedy for power and arrogant. Which is not what he voted for.
Hubris killed Theresa May's career, I wonder if it's about to take it her opponent as well?
If "Conservative free market" leavers (ie those who voted to leave to get out of EU bureaucracy etc) were now given the choice of:
1) Remain in EU with a Cameron Govt, followed by a mainstream (eg Cooper) Lab Govt in 2020
2) Leave the EU with a Corbyn Govt
Which would they choose?
I suspect some may claim to choose 2) as Corbyn wouldn't be in power for ever - but would they really - he could do a lot of damage pretty quickly.
Many others would surely favour 1)
There is no damage the EU could possibly do that would exceed the negative impact of five months of Jeremy Corbyn and I think even most leavers have grasped that.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety. They wouldn't be able to sort the cladding and make good in 4 weeks,
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety.
Councils are rightly concerned to ensure absolutely the safety of their residents in high rise blocks. And to avoid the fate of officers, and likely fate of councillors, in Kensington.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety. They wouldn't be able to sort the cladding and make good in 4 weeks,
Resident clearly said she had been told it was the gas pipes on the landings
Falling oil prices and the recovery in the Eurozone both make the immediate economic outlook positive for us.
You can make a good case that the period from 2008 to 2014 was like 1972 to 1979 for the developed world, with high commodity prices sending money from the developed world to commodity exporters. It resulted in terrible growth in Europe and the US.
When commodity prices subsided again, growth took off and the 1980s were great.
That being said, Britain exited the 1970s with a positive current account balance and a household savings rate of close to 15%. We now have a 3% savings rate and a massive current account deficit. We were a coiled spring in 1980, ready to benefit from a falling saving rate, lower commodity prices and structural reforms.
This time around our savings rate can only go in one direction. And that isn't going to be positive for economic growth. The economy - like all things - must balance over time. And we continue to get more and more unbalanced.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety.
Councils are rightly concerned to ensure absolutely the safety of their residents in high rise blocks. And to avoid the fate of officers, and likely fate of councillors, in Kensington.
Yes I agree, but there is something clearly going on in Camden that has come to their attention today. They already knew about the cladding. In her statement Gould said things had been brought up in the public meeting she wasn't aware of and the fire officers were sent in today to check. As a result she has ordered them evacuated.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety.
Councils are rightly concerned to ensure absolutely the safety of their residents in high rise blocks. And to avoid the fate of officers, and likely fate of councillors, in Kensington.
Which is not in itself an unreasonable position.
However, if they are then considered to have over-reacted and inconvenienced and terrified several thousand people for no good reason the second seems optimistic. So far the shambolic nature of the evacuation seems to be causing more irritation than the previous reassurances now abandoned.
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety.
Councils are rightly concerned to ensure absolutely the safety of their residents in high rise blocks. And to avoid the fate of officers, and likely fate of councillors, in Kensington.
Agreed as long as they have not over reacted. Residents not at all happy especially hearing it on Sky news
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
The problem is that the next one might not be. Near-identical starting conditions with just one variant - say non-working batteries in a smoke alarm or the wind in another direction - might turn a small and easily contained fire into something much worse.
This must have been a really tough call. *If* gas is involved I can sort-of understand it, but even if that's the case surely another method could be found - for instance turning off the gas to all the flats and providing meals?
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
The problem is that the next one might not be. Near-identical starting conditions with just one variant - say non-working batteries in a smoke alarm or the wind in another direction - might turn a small and easily contained fire into something much worse.
This must have been a really tough call. *If* gas is involved I can sort-of understand it, but even if that's the case surely another method could be found - for instance turning off the gas to all the flats and providing meals?
But we don't know the full facts.
It's got to be much more than the cladding. Maybe LFB aren't happy with the fire alarm system, or exits or fire doors or stairwell protection. Maybe all of those things. A full evacuation on a Friday night seems a bit urgent though.
If "Conservative free market" leavers (ie those who voted to leave to get out of EU bureaucracy etc) were now given the choice of:
1) Remain in EU with a Cameron Govt, followed by a mainstream (eg Cooper) Lab Govt in 2020
2) Leave the EU with a Corbyn Govt
Which would they choose?
I suspect some may claim to choose 2) as Corbyn wouldn't be in power for ever - but would they really - he could do a lot of damage pretty quickly.
Many others would surely favour 1)
It's a tough ask. Real tough. (And yes I have reduced my exposure to UK assets such is the threat he represents and I am taking steps to extend that).
But at least with our democracy we still have a corrective mechanism no matter how awful Corbyn's delusional economics. The Greeks gave theirs away in a fit of misplaced Euro enthusiasm and then found it didn't matter how radical a solution they chose, as the levers of change had gone.
The biggest whopper of Brexit was the unspoken one of what the "remain status quo" was/is/will be? What will "ever closer union" look like in detail? How would it be accountable? How does the media hold to account a governing a process taking place on the Tower of Babel (imagine leaders' debates through simultaneous translation!)? There is no demos. There can be no real democracy, just a well intentioned bureaucracy at best. A 21st Century Austria Hungary with increasingly violent outbursts reflecting the frustrations of peoples denied a real voice.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Possibly.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Possibly.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
I can easily imagine how it is difficult to inform all residents first - especially if something has to be done urgently. This might be overcaution - but it's surely not spin. They aren't looking competent because of this...
Aaaaaand resident points out its council residents being treated like dirt and told to get out at no notice when 4 years ago Camden and fire officers signed off on the tower. To Quote him 'someone got a wad of cash and bought a nice villa' Optics, Dear boy, optics
Camden thing isn't about cladding I think, they'd already covered that off in a public meeting and letter. Something in the design of the buildings has caused them to conclude they cannot guarantee safety.
Councils are rightly concerned to ensure absolutely the safety of their residents in high rise blocks. And to avoid the fate of officers, and likely fate of councillors, in Kensington.
Which is not in itself an unreasonable position.
However, if they are then considered to have over-reacted and inconvenienced and terrified several thousand people for no good reason the second seems optimistic. So far the shambolic nature of the evacuation seems to be causing more irritation than the previous reassurances now abandoned.
My Council too is in the midst of all this. Local government is acting on the basis of an indication from central government that money is no object in dealing with this crisis. A degree of overreaction is inevitable, I suspect, but that's politics, and is a compensating consequence of the apparent underreacfion in Kensington. Doing too much is clearly preferable to doing too little given the horrendous events at Grenfell, which all of us want to do everything we can to ensure can never happen again.
Falling oil prices and the recovery in the Eurozone both make the immediate economic outlook positive for us.
You can make a good case that the period from 2008 to 2014 was like 1972 to 1979 for the developed world, with high commodity prices sending money from the developed world to commodity exporters. It resulted in terrible growth in Europe and the US.
When commodity prices subsided again, growth took off and the 1980s were great.
That being said, Britain exited the 1970s with a positive current account balance and a household savings rate of close to 15%. We now have a 3% savings rate and a massive current account deficit. We were a coiled spring in 1980, ready to benefit from a falling saving rate, lower commodity prices and structural reforms.
This time around our savings rate can only go in one direction. And that isn't going to be positive for economic growth. The economy - like all things - must balance over time. And we continue to get more and more unbalanced.
True, but it's preferable to rising oil prices and no growth in the Eurozone.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Possibly.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
If "Conservative free market" leavers (ie those who voted to leave to get out of EU bureaucracy etc) were now given the choice of:
1) Remain in EU with a Cameron Govt, followed by a mainstream (eg Cooper) Lab Govt in 2020
2) Leave the EU with a Corbyn Govt
Which would they choose?
I suspect some may claim to choose 2) as Corbyn wouldn't be in power for ever - but would they really - he could do a lot of damage pretty quickly.
Many others would surely favour 1)
It's a tough ask. Real tough. (And yes I have reduced my exposure to UK assets such is the threat he represents and I am taking steps to extend that).
But at least with our democracy we still have a corrective mechanism no matter how awful Corbyn's delusional economics. The Greeks gave theirs away in a fit of misplaced Euro enthusiasm and then found it didn't matter how radical a solution they chose, as the levers of change had gone.
The biggest whopper of Brexit was the unspoken one of what the "remain status quo" was/is/will be? What will "ever closer union" look like in detail? How would it be accountable? How does the media hold to account a governing a process taking place on the Tower of Babel (imagine leaders' debates through simultaneous translation!)? There is no demos. There can be no real democracy, just a well intentioned bureaucracy at best. A 21st Century Austria Hungary with increasingly violent outbursts reflecting the frustrations of peoples denied a real voice.
While there is no EU demos today, there wasn't a Swiss demos 150 years ago, and you could probably make the case that there's no Belgian demos today.
Demos emerge over time. It probably took 100 years from the war of independence before a meaningful US demos emerged (especially given the lack of mass communication).
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU. But my point is that lots of countries were political unions before they had their own demos.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
Aaaaaand resident points out its council residents being treated like dirt and told to get out at no notice when 4 years ago Camden and fire officers signed off on the tower. To Quote him 'someone got a wad of cash and bought a nice villa' Optics, Dear boy, optics
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Possibly.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
I can easily imagine how it is difficult to inform all residents first - especially if something has to be done urgently. This might be overcaution - but it's surely not spin. They aren't looking competent because of this...
I think it would be dead easy. Don't tell the media until you have spoken to the residents. It's not exactly hard. Yet the media seem to have got there ahead of the council officers.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
Possibly.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
You mean someone's playing politics with this?
As if a Labour council would ever play politics!
Pertinent point now from a very angry resident - why did they leave it to 8.30 on Friday to decide?
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU.
Can this be read as you predicting a >50% chance that the EU as a whole will break up? The experience since the Brexit vote shows just how strong and stable the EU as a political structure is. It's a permanent feature of European politics and we cannot avoid it's influence by giving up our influence within it.
The extent of the use of this cladding and it's removal could cost the Country many countless billions.
Big tax rises look inevitable
I doubt it would be billions for replacement of the cladding systems. The entire refit of the Grenfell tower was £8.7 million, and according to Wiki the cladding part of the work cost £2.6 million. Given that it might just be a part-for-part replacement (unless they need to fix some form of structural 'chimney' effect) it should be a fairly straightforward job (or as straightforward as working at height can be).
If we take a cost of £2 million to replace the cladding, then 500 buildings could be done for a billion. Although having skilled people and kit to do the work might be a problem: they need to ensure the work's done properly, even if it means it takes time for them to be done.
Now, if they decide that grandfather rights for things like sprinklers in high-rise buildings are to be voided, then it may well get into billions.
If the suspect cladding was put up under PFI. Why can't we knock the cost off the future PFI payments? They put the rubbish up, let them take the pain
I doubt Grenfell Tower was under PFI, but it'll certainly be interesting to see who pays for any buildings that were built under PFI. I'm guessing if the cladding didn't meet the relevant codes when it was installed, then it's the PFI company's responsibility. If it was correct at the time of installation and it still needs changing, I daresay the lawyers will be earning a lot of money.
That would be interesting as a standard commercial lease would not necessarily have the government as one party to the contract.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
Is that for absolutely anyone? And what does it cost?
In the last week or so I've become acutely conscious my fire systems are umm, non-existent. If such a service is available I would be interested in using it.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision.
Falling oil prices and the recovery in the Eurozone both make the immediate economic outlook positive for us.
You can make a good case that the period from 2008 to 2014 was like 1972 to 1979 for the developed world, with high commodity prices sending money from the developed world to commodity exporters. It resulted in terrible growth in Europe and the US.
When commodity prices subsided again, growth took off and the 1980s were great.
That being said, Britain exited the 1970s with a positive current account balance and a household savings rate of close to 15%. We now have a 3% savings rate and a massive current account deficit. We were a coiled spring in 1980, ready to benefit from a falling saving rate, lower commodity prices and structural reforms.
This time around our savings rate can only go in one direction. And that isn't going to be positive for economic growth. The economy - like all things - must balance over time. And we continue to get more and more unbalanced.
True, but it's preferable to rising oil prices and no growth in the Eurozone.
Yes, you're right.
Hopefully we can navigate the next two years, with the low oil price and rising Eurozone demand resulting in us achieving modest growth and allowing our savings rate to creep up.
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU.
Can this be read as you predicting a >50% chance that the EU as a whole will break up? The experience since the Brexit vote shows just how strong and stable the EU as a political structure is. It's a permanent feature of European politics and we cannot avoid it's influence by giving up our influence within it.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
Is that for absolutely anyone? And what does it cost?
In the last week or so I've become acutely conscious my fire systems are umm, non-existent. If such a service is available I would be interested in using it.
We do it for free. Just give your local service a call.
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU.
Can this be read as you predicting a >50% chance that the EU as a whole will break up? The experience since the Brexit vote shows just how strong and stable the EU as a political structure is. It's a permanent feature of European politics and we cannot avoid it's influence by giving up our influence within it.
Enda Brady talking to Sophie Ridge on Sky just now saying 'the feeling is anger, absolutely livid that the first they knew was when it flashed up on their mobile phones from Sky news or watching their television in their homes and were being told thay had to evacuate their homes immediately'
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
Is that for absolutely anyone? And what does it cost?
In the last week or so I've become acutely conscious my fire systems are umm, non-existent. If such a service is available I would be interested in using it.
We do it for free. Just give your local service a call.
Thank you. That's well worth knowing. I will follow up directly.
Lovely old gentleman on Sky just now - very polite. He didn't deserve this mess. His neighbour doesn't sound at all happy.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
The thing is I didn't call them though they had fitted them some years ago
Had to switch off Sky News and I switched on bbc1 and found the v funny Tracy Ullman. A nice bit of light relief.
Some of that show was brilliant. Instant classics.... not everyone obviously but some v clever ones and of course loved he lab mp moderate being interrogated by corbyn hq.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
The thing is I didn't call them though they had fitted them some years ago
Why not organise 24/7 fire marshalls at each block until the cladding is replaced? A couple of people patrolling inside & out with additional alarm systems.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
Is that for absolutely anyone? And what does it cost?
In the last week or so I've become acutely conscious my fire systems are umm, non-existent. If such a service is available I would be interested in using it.
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU.
Can this be read as you predicting a >50% chance that the EU as a whole will break up? The experience since the Brexit vote shows just how strong and stable the EU as a political structure is. It's a permanent feature of European politics and we cannot avoid it's influence by giving up our influence within it.
Are Radiohead the most overrated band ever to headline Glastonbury?
Radiohead are the best band of the last 30 years. The National (playing tomorrow) are the second best.
I've tried listening to Radiohead and I just can't get into them. There was a performance on Jools Holland about 10 years ago that I liked but I can't remember what the name of the song was.
Interesting. Guy on Sky News saying that there have been fires in these blocks which have been contained.
Of course there have! I keep banging on about it, when I worked in the city, we used to get a flat fire a couple of times a week, and that was just my watch. I'm genuinely confused what the rush is to evacuate tonight.
At the end of the day - if there's even a 1% chance of another Grenfell it's worth evacuating?
I don't know. People are more aware now, smoke detectors can be checked and replaced, the council's could employ security to patrol the blocks. It's got to be much more than the cladding issue.
My fire service phoned me the other day to say our smoke detectors needed changing and they offered to come and fit them but instead they sent them and I fitted them easily. I don't know if this is a service just for us oldies
We fit them for anyone who gives us a call, and we knock on doors asking as well.
The thing is I didn't call them though they had fitted them some years ago
Public sector in keeping decent records shocker!
Good on the fire service
I remember the first time they came they turned up in their fire engine
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU.
Can this be read as you predicting a >50% chance that the EU as a whole will break up? The experience since the Brexit vote shows just how strong and stable the EU as a political structure is. It's a permanent feature of European politics and we cannot avoid it's influence by giving up our influence within it.
I don't think an imminent break up is likely. But the world and the EU economy will have another 2008-2015 period again at some point.
And why will the EU be less capable of weathering it than it was in 2008?
Of course next time any populist uprising will be met with a cautionary warning: Remember Brexit?
Most political unions fail to become demos. A select few endure. The EU may, or may not, be one of those that endure.
Of course, all endurance is relative. One day the last human being to even know the meaning of the words "The United Kingdom" will die.
Given such a fatalistic view of history, for what reason would you support leaving the EU given that you are well aware that a large number of your fellow travellers are nuts and that there are very real risks on many levels? Let it be.
@RCS1000 Belgium is just a football team and a small army these days!
Seriously though, take the Swiss point but it has at heart been a German speaking country at heart (well its own version), with French and (small) Italian bolt ons.
India is the nearest thing I can think of, but it has a dominant and important religious hinterland a language in Hindi that getting on for half the population speak (and about half the rest speaking something related to it), at least a history of substantial long term unification of big parts of it( cf Mughal empire) and a common legal system and lingua franca inherited from the Brits ( as it happens).
My real objection to "Europe" is it will not melt into "Rome"( or a gigantic Switzerland) but be Austria reborn. Lovely wine. Great buildings. Lots of feathery hats. But a bit moth eaten compared to the Rest of the World and prone to violence as the Juncker of the 2040's insists to his populace(s) in foreign language he knows better.
Are Radiohead the most overrated band ever to headline Glastonbury?
Radiohead are the best band of the last 30 years. The National (playing tomorrow) are the second best.
I've tried listening to Radiohead and I just can't get into them. There was a performance on Jools Holland about 10 years ago that I liked but I can't remember what the name of the song was.
I would start with The Bends if I was you. Listen to it about 20 times and you will soon love it.
Then I'd move on to OK Computer, before going back in time to enjoy Pablo Honey. After that, you'll be hooked and you'll listen to the rest. All their albums benefit from repeated listening.
Comments
I thought we were meant to have local democracy - should we just scrap local councils completely and run everything from the centre?
Of course Govt / Parliament must set laws / standards but surely local councils must manage their own areas.
One thing I can guarantee is, no matter what happens, no matter how well or badly handled, that TMay and the Tories will come in for criticism.
I'm sitting in our flat which I got rewired last year. In the downstairs flat the electrics literally haven't been touched in 60 years. Her appliances look very old as well. Should I be worrying about that?
In the last flat we lived in the place was full of alcoholics who did things like fall asleep while cooking themselves breakfast at 4 am in the morning, resulting in the fire brigade called out regularly. We were on the top floor and there was no easy way down if the stairwell filled up with smoke.
Having looked in to this, I think the requirements of the 2005 legislation are basically sound, they require most multi occupancy buildings to have fire risk assessments undertaken. The trouble is that many buildings don't have the assessments undertaken and the whole thing is not taken particularly seriously by freeholders/ owners. Red tape/bureaucracy.
I wonder if 1960's high rise council blocks are really viable as low cost housing. The cost of retrofitting them to current building regs standards for new buildings of the same size must be enormous.
Not sure if this was picked up previously, but Lord Sainsbury is no longer funding Progress. This must be quite a big blow for labour moderates.
Of course the EU is a long way from being Israel, or Pretoria or even the Maze. But it sets an unhappy precedent and is an absolutely ridiculous demand. If anything could make me regret my Remain vote it is the arrogant and petulant way the EU has behaved since the vote over issues like this.
Or was that a clever pun on Jon Trickett?
It doesn't sound as though the residents are at all happy (understandably) - some of them have lived in these blocks with this cladding for 17 years and are only now being told they might be burned alive?
Sky even asking if something more 'sinister' is going on - no idea what they mean by that comment
There's talk of gas pipes in the stairwells on Sky from one resident which would make things very confusing and fractious in most blocks in the land.
I suppose we are sure that it's genuine and not some kind of scam? I'm past being astonished.
I agree with the man saying now that it's ridiculous.
Lots of criticism (not all unjustified) we don't collectively know what we want from our relationship, but does the EU the other way round?
Georgia Gould and Co have made an awfully big call this evening.
Guy told there are air beds at Swiss Cottage 'I'm not sleeping on an air bed'
1) Remain in EU with a Cameron Govt, followed by a mainstream (eg Cooper) Lab Govt in 2020
2) Leave the EU with a Corbyn Govt
Which would they choose?
I suspect some may claim to choose 2) as Corbyn wouldn't be in power for ever - but would they really - he could do a lot of damage pretty quickly.
Many others would surely favour 1)
Hubris killed Theresa May's career, I wonder if it's about to take it her opponent as well?
And no, I haven't forgotten Greece.
1) We must do something.
2) This is something.
3) Therefore we must do this.
When commodity prices subsided again, growth took off and the 1980s were great.
That being said, Britain exited the 1970s with a positive current account balance and a household savings rate of close to 15%. We now have a 3% savings rate and a massive current account deficit. We were a coiled spring in 1980, ready to benefit from a falling saving rate, lower commodity prices and structural reforms.
This time around our savings rate can only go in one direction. And that isn't going to be positive for economic growth. The economy - like all things - must balance over time. And we continue to get more and more unbalanced.
However, if they are then considered to have over-reacted and inconvenienced and terrified several thousand people for no good reason the second seems optimistic. So far the shambolic nature of the evacuation seems to be causing more irritation than the previous reassurances now abandoned.
This must have been a really tough call. *If* gas is involved I can sort-of understand it, but even if that's the case surely another method could be found - for instance turning off the gas to all the flats and providing meals?
But we don't know the full facts.
But at least with our democracy we still have a corrective mechanism no matter how awful Corbyn's delusional economics. The Greeks gave theirs away in a fit of misplaced Euro enthusiasm and then found it didn't matter how radical a solution they chose, as the levers of change had gone.
The biggest whopper of Brexit was the unspoken one of what the "remain status quo" was/is/will be? What will "ever closer union" look like in detail? How would it be accountable? How does the media hold to account a governing a process taking place on the Tower of Babel (imagine leaders' debates through simultaneous translation!)? There is no demos. There can be no real democracy, just a well intentioned bureaucracy at best. A 21st Century Austria Hungary with increasingly violent outbursts reflecting the frustrations of peoples denied a real voice.
But it might also be worth organising it with something vaguely akin to sophistication and competence? Letting the media know and not the residents smacks of spin and not safety.
Interviewer again saying gas and cladding problem but not at all happy at the evacuation
To Quote him 'someone got a wad of cash and bought a nice villa'
Optics, Dear boy, optics
Demos emerge over time. It probably took 100 years from the war of independence before a meaningful US demos emerged (especially given the lack of mass communication).
Of course, that doesn't mean an EU demos will emerge, more likely it will break apart, or that only a portion of it (perhaps Germanic Europe and the Baltics) ends up as sort of rump EU. But my point is that lots of countries were political unions before they had their own demos.
Pertinent point now from a very angry resident - why did they leave it to 8.30 on Friday to decide?
Slightly relatedly, some good news:
https://twitter.com/ReutersJamie/status/878357627071320064
In the last week or so I've become acutely conscious my fire systems are umm, non-existent. If such a service is available I would be interested in using it.
Hopefully we can navigate the next two years, with the low oil price and rising Eurozone demand resulting in us achieving modest growth and allowing our savings rate to creep up.
Of course next time any populist uprising will be met with a cautionary warning: Remember Brexit?
Lovely old gentleman on Sky just now - very polite. He didn't deserve this mess. His neighbour doesn't sound at all happy.
The National (playing tomorrow) are the second best.
Of course, all endurance is relative. One day the last human being to even know the meaning of the words "The United Kingdom" will die.
I remember the first time they came they turned up in their fire engine
@RCS1000
Belgium is just a football team and a small army these days!
Seriously though, take the Swiss point but it has at heart been a German speaking country at heart (well its own version), with French and (small) Italian bolt ons.
India is the nearest thing I can think of, but it has a dominant and important religious hinterland a language in Hindi that getting on for half the population speak (and about half the rest speaking something related to it), at least a history of substantial long term unification of big parts of it( cf Mughal empire) and a common legal system and lingua franca inherited from the Brits ( as it happens).
My real objection to "Europe" is it will not melt into "Rome"( or a gigantic Switzerland) but be Austria reborn. Lovely wine. Great buildings. Lots of feathery hats. But a bit moth eaten compared to the Rest of the World and prone to violence as the Juncker of the 2040's insists to his populace(s) in foreign language he knows better.
Then I'd move on to OK Computer, before going back in time to enjoy Pablo Honey. After that, you'll be hooked and you'll listen to the rest. All their albums benefit from repeated listening.