I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
Too late now. We've all got you live with the consequences of your decision.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
That's what we need.
sean T what has happened to your belief in our great nation . Where are your balls , you have turned into a tory wet with knocking knees. You can't have one toe in one toe out with the EU we will just end up getting sucked back in to a worse place with them than before . Out of the EU in name only with none of the influence. We should be confident as a nation to go out there and trade with the world, control our own borders and not be in cahoots with Brussels. we are not Belgium we can do this
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
"We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced."
Where's that from?
I read it was to bring the flats up to modern standards of insulation (although it could have fulfilled both requirements at once: given better insulation and looked better).
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
Isn't this now a possibility now Fishfinger's gone and some grown ups are now running the Dims? Cable, Swinson, Lamb, Davey - all of these guys could work with the Tories.
No we cant , only nutters like the DUP can consider working with the Conservatives
I'm afraid your are underestimating the threat of Momentum. We have just had a false flag election. The current situation is unprecedented. Every democrat needs to counter the current Labour leadership.
Now, if more people wanted to live in blocks of flats, it might well be possible. But that is not what many (most?) people in this country want. Nick Palmer thinks this view should change, and he may well be correct. But changing it is really difficult, and sadly will be much harder after yesterday's tragedy.
Yes, I agree. But ultimately if you offer people London rents to live in flats with decent construction, maintenance and fire protection at say £7-800/month, even if it means they don't get a house and garden and the skyline is ruined, they'll grab them. The problem is not really that people refuse to live in flats, it's that affordable flats are not being built in sufficient numbers.
I grew up in a flat on the 8th floor of this tower block in a pleasant residential area near the station of a Copenhagen suburb. Two lifts that almost never broke down, a full-time porter, two balconies with a pleasant breeze and sun all day on one side or the other, playground underneath, shops galore nearby as well as green spaces. Flats there currently start at around £120,000, or £500/month.
That might have been the case in the 1960s or 1970s in Copenhagen, but a massive issue was the fact that many tower blocks in the UK during that period became synonymous with crime and poor living standards. Yet just a few years earlier people had been glad to move into them. If we move back to highrise living, we need to ensure the same does not happen again.
People remember this. Certainly, the few months I spent living in Skenfrith House off the Old Kent Road in the early 1990s were interesting. The flat was beautifully looked after; the communal areas - the lifts and lobbies - less so. As an example, the lift would have a rather unpleasant aroma each morning.
I also spent a year in a student tower bock in South Woodford. That was more pleasant, aside from the usual letting off of fire extinguishers, midnight fire alarms to see who was sleeping with whom, and of course the Phantom Shi**er of Old London Town ...
Nick's right about the old school flats in Denmark though renting anywhere pleasant for 500 quid a month is stretching it but you can get a 90 sq metre place in Lyngby for a thousand - HOWEVER a lot of the new housing in Copenhagen is being built to be more like English houses, 3 storeys of tiny rooms - a friend just bought one for about 375k £ and it's intended to be a cool new suburb but looks like a slum in the making - where Nick grew up is a pretty swish town so not as subject to some of the social issues that make those blocks much less pleasant in other parts of Denmark
BTW, the YouGov poll from June 11-12 bears out Survation, in that it shows Labour ahead by 6 (48-42, based on the weighted numbers for the 3 parties), with much the same for the unweighted sample. Roughly a 4-point swing since the election.
The figures are nearer Lab 45 Con 40 LD 8 before elimination of dont know/wont vote 36/32/7
A Corbyn led Labour party polling 45%. Unreal.
Scary, more like.
I reckon Corbyn would be a fairly ineffectual and quite likeable prime minister, and wouldn't be too damaging, IF - and it's a huge IF - he was surrounded by lots of nice sensible centrist Labour people.
But he isn't. He is surrounded by people like Milne, and McDonnell - active Stalinists and Trots, lovers-of-Hamas and snoggers-of-the-IRA, proper Marxists and commies, with a dash of Islamism.
It is incredible that the Labour party has been taken over by these fuckers, and incredible that they are so close to power. Well done Theresa, you stupid cow.
I am a bit more positive regarding the future, though. May's not going into another election, so that's one major obstacle out of the way. And the Tories will surely never again release a manifesto like that, a complete and utter disaster.
I don't believe when push comes to shove the public will choose Corbyn as PM. There are still enough sensible people in this country to know the damage he would do. I know what current polling says - but that does not mean a jot, as the Tories have just found out.
With either Boris or Ruth as leaders, and a campaign run on the economy and low taxes, I see no reason why the Tories can't turn this around to great effect.
As far as I can see the DUP are no FOM, out of the single market, hard Brexiteers wanting some sort of 'special' bespoke arrangement for the NI-Ireland border. They make the cake eating & owning Tory loonballs seem pretty relaxed about cake ownership
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Giving Corbyn the keys now would save the Tories to a certain extent as his plans are unsustainable in even the short term, and he cannot welch as he would be crucified. Plus he would have a small majority.
While we are all sat here chatting to each other and putting the world to rights.
How many of you have checked your smoke detectors in the last few weeks? Might be worth checking them right now (we will wait for you) and putting new batteries in (if they have batteries).
Let some tiny bit of good come from a terrible tragedy.
Buy Nest Protect alarms. They talk to you. Way safer in an emergency than a non-directional shouty beep.
(This is not a sponsored post).
I'd be really, really wary about Internet-connected smoke and fire alarms. Sometimes simplest is best.
I completely understand the sentiment but each unit is a fully autonomous smoke, heat and CO alarm. You can't even wire them for power over Ethernet, which is frustrating when you're installing from scratch and have to put in mains cabling and then use wifi but probably a sensible building regs stipulation (risk of turning off router etc). They provide a lot more information in an emergency situation and the ability to receive alerts remotely has the potential to reduce the scale of incidents too.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Can't see that happening old fruit. The Tories begat Brexit so they can conclude it in whatever way they can. If it is a success they can reap the rewards. A failure and they can enjoy the 2020's in opposition. It will do them good.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
Too late now. We've all got you live with the consequences of your decision.
Well in fairness it wasn't just mine, it was a majority of the whole population.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Bill Roache, Peter Stringfellow and Alan Partridge?
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
Isn't this now a possibility now Fishfinger's gone and some grown ups are now running the Dims? Cable, Swinson, Lamb, Davey - all of these guys could work with the Tories.
No we cant , only nutters like the DUP can consider working with the Conservatives
I'm afraid your are underestimating the threat of Momentum. We have just had a false flag election. The current situation is unprecedented. Every democrat needs to counter the current Labour leadership.
And you are under estimating the idiocy and incompetence of the Conservative Party . This will ensure a Labour victory at the next GE despite Corbyn and Momentum .
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
That's what we need.
sean T what has happened to your belief in our great nation . Where are your balls , you have turned into a tory wet with knocking knees. You can't have one toe in one toe out with the EU we will just end up getting sucked back in to a worse place with them than before . Out of the EU in name only with none of the influence. We should be confident as a nation to go out there and trade with the world, control our own borders and not be in cahoots with Brussels. we are not Belgium we can do this
I AGREE.
But we need to do it SLOWLY and CLEVERLY. Transition to EEA. Don't frighten the horses. Then think again. There is no need - and no electoral demand - for a crash, cliff-edge Brexit. The sole reason we are in this pickle is that Theresa Stupid May's Idiotic Conference Pledge has brought us to this place, for no reason at all, other than it might be popular, which the election shows: IT ISN'T.
Fuck this shit. Do EEA. Slowly pivot away. Minimal damage.
I understand what you are saying but the danger here is an EEA transition politically risks us going into reverse on Brexit and ending up back in the club as the prodigal son returning tail between our legs having to accept what crumbs the EU gives us. nothing short of full Euro, no opt-outs, schengen -the lot -with daily rehearsals of Ode to Joy
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
Isn't this now a possibility now Fishfinger's gone and some grown ups are now running the Dims? Cable, Swinson, Lamb, Davey - all of these guys could work with the Tories.
No we cant , only nutters like the DUP can consider working with the Conservatives
I'm afraid your are underestimating the threat of Momentum. We have just had a false flag election. The current situation is unprecedented. Every democrat needs to counter the current Labour leadership.
And you are under estimating the idiocy and incompetence of the Conservative Party . This will ensure a Labour victory at the next GE despite Corbyn and Momentum .
Let the grown ups have a go in the Lib Dems, Mark.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
Isn't this now a possibility now Fishfinger's gone and some grown ups are now running the Dims? Cable, Swinson, Lamb, Davey - all of these guys could work with the Tories.
No we cant , only nutters like the DUP can consider working with the Conservatives
I'm afraid your are underestimating the threat of Momentum. We have just had a false flag election. The current situation is unprecedented. Every democrat needs to counter the current Labour leadership.
And you are under estimating the idiocy and incompetence of the Conservative Party . This will ensure a Labour victory at the next GE despite Corbyn and Momentum .
You may be right but what I was suggesting is that the Lib Dems, Labour "moderates" and the more aware Tories need to make combatting Momentum as high in the agenda as Brexit.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
i am very confident that the cladding on grenfell tower was done as part of the project that redeveloped the school and built the community sports centre - all surrounding grenfell as was.
i use the sportscentre regularly, the squash courts are permanently out of action due to persistent leaks, the roof of the main hall leaks every time it rains and i am reliably informed that only one of the three womans changing rooms is usable - non functional toilets and showers preventing the others from being used.
basically extremely shoddy work - david lammy may not he far off the mark when he talks about corporate manslaughter
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
Too late now. We've all got you live with the consequences of your decision.
Well in fairness it wasn't just mine, it was a majority of the whole population.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Can't see that happening old fruit. The Tories begat Brexit so they can conclude it in whatever way they can. If it is a success they can reap the rewards. A failure and they can enjoy the 2020's in opposition. It will do them good.
Yup, I said Brexit would be Blue Team's Black Wednesday.
That might have been the case in the 1960s or 1970s in Copenhagen, but a massive issue was the fact that many tower blocks in the UK during that period became synonymous with crime and poor living standards. Yet just a few years earlier people had been glad to move into them. If we move back to highrise living, we need to ensure the same does not happen again.
People remember this. Certainly, the few months I spent living in Skenfrith House off the Old Kent Road in the early 1990s were interesting. The flat was beautifully looked after; the communal areas - the lifts and lobbies - less so. As an example, the lift would have a rather unpleasant aroma each morning.
I also spent a year in a student tower bock in South Woodford. That was more pleasant, aside from the usual letting off of fire extinguishers, midnight fire alarms to see who was sleeping with whom, and of course the Phantom Shi**er of Old London Town ...
Yes, I agree (and I'm impressed by isam's pinpointing of where I grew up). Really 75% of pleasant living is having agreeable neighbours anyway, and the New York broken window theory (leave a broken window unrepaired and it encourages more crime), even though I know it's disputed, feels intuitively right. The success of the block I grew up in had a lot to do with the porter, who was a zealous perfectionist (and huge admirer of Churchill for liberating Denmark - we gave him a record with collected speeches as a leaving gift).
Do I use my 3 quid vote for Kendall, who I'd quite like to see make a fist of it and do a good job of holding the govt to account - or Corbyn, who makes Ed Miliband look like Margaret Thatcher..?
Also, from a betting perspective, what chance there's now an organised campaign from rightwingers or UKIP to get Corbyn elected?
You could always vote for Corybn as first prefs,a nd Kendell second.
I think there's a pretty broad consensus among members that Jeremy isn't really going to be the leader, but that it would have been wrong to exclude the left from a voice on the ballot.
Agree with that Nick, but have they thought through what might happen given that the ballot is effectively open to the public - including those who may not have the best wishes of the Labour party in mind?
Are you suggesting that I don't have the best wishes of the Labour Party in mind? Withdraw that, Sir! At once!
Among others.
I recall reading several other similar posts from PB rightwingers around that time but cba spending more than 5 mins searching.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
My suspicion is that they haven't had the Thatcher that necessarily came before Blair, but we shall see.
I've been quietly impressed with Macron. He's eased into his new role with great aplomb. He's as smooth as a baby's bum, but then again, so was Blair and so was Obama.
Still, at least the French have got rid of the extremists from both sides. Maybe they are starting to grow up, and we are starting to regress with the rise of far left populism.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Lib Dems, shorn of Farron, agreed to a coalition government with a negotiated EEA/EFTA solution as the objective, put to a referendum in 2019?
That's what we need.
sean T what has happened to your belief in our great nation . Where are your balls , you have turned into a tory wet with knocking knees. You can't have one toe in one toe out with the EU we will just end up getting sucked back in to a worse place with them than before . Out of the EU in name only with none of the influence. We should be confident as a nation to go out there and trade with the world, control our own borders and not be in cahoots with Brussels. we are not Belgium we can do this
I AGREE.
But we need to do it SLOWLY and CLEVERLY. Transition to EEA. Don't frighten the horses. Then think again. There is no need - and no electoral demand - for a crash, cliff-edge Brexit. The sole reason we are in this pickle is that Theresa Stupid May's Idiotic Conference Pledge has brought us to this place, for no reason at all, other than it might be popular, which the election shows: IT ISN'T.
Fuck this shit. Do EEA. Slowly pivot away. Minimal damage.
I understand what you are saying but the danger here is an EEA transition politically risks us going into reverse on Brexit and ending up back in the club as the prodigal son returning tail between our legs having to accept what crumbs the EU gives us. nothing short of full Euro, no opt-outs, schengen -the lot -with daily rehearsals of Ode to Joy
It may also not be our choice as to whether EEA is possible. It does require other parties to agree, and we are a significantly larger economy than any of them.
While it does make rejoining the EU easier, it will not satisfy the hard Brexiterrs, though one wonders what could.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
My suspicion is that they haven't had the Thatcher that necessarily came before Blair, but we shall see.
I've been quietly impressed with Macron. He's eased into his new role with great aplomb. He's as smooth as a baby's bum, but then again, so was Blair and so was Obama.
Still, at least the French have got rid of the extremists from both sides. Maybe they are starting to grow up, and we are starting to regress with the rise of far left populism.
What a strange world we live in.
Macron has to succeed or it will be the FN next time. The French have given the mainstream one last chance.
Now he has to prove he's more than just a youthful face and a nice haircut. Forgive me for some scepticism.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
I was always puzzled by why Tory MPs were so effortlessly fooled by May.
She submarined during EuroRef only to surface to give the most disingenuous, stab Cameron in the back, 'Pro' Europe speech imaginable as she nakedly triangulated in on her Leadership bid.
I thought she was so even more obviously angling for PM than Boris in a way that struck me as unseemly.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
That might have been the case in the 1960s or 1970s in Copenhagen, but a massive issue was the fact that many tower blocks in the UK during that period became synonymous with crime and poor living standards. Yet just a few years earlier people had been glad to move into them. If we move back to highrise living, we need to ensure the same does not happen again.
People remember this. Certainly, the few months I spent living in Skenfrith House off the Old Kent Road in the early 1990s were interesting. The flat was beautifully looked after; the communal areas - the lifts and lobbies - less so. As an example, the lift would have a rather unpleasant aroma each morning.
I also spent a year in a student tower bock in South Woodford. That was more pleasant, aside from the usual letting off of fire extinguishers, midnight fire alarms to see who was sleeping with whom, and of course the Phantom Shi**er of Old London Town ...
Yes, I agree (and I'm impressed by isam's pinpointing of where I grew up). Really 75% of pleasant living is having agreeable neighbours anyway, and the New York broken window theory (leave a broken window unrepaired and it encourages more crime), even though I know it's disputed, feels intuitively right. The success of the block I grew up in had a lot to do with the porter, who was a zealous perfectionist (and huge admirer of Churchill for liberating Denmark - we gave him a record with collected speeches as a leaving gift).
This time last week Mrs May was expecting to get a majority of 60 to 90 seats
This time last week Tory HQ was smugly telling us not to believe the exit poll.
I had just about got up of the floor where I had collapsed to my knees.
I was texting some people inside 4 Matthew Parker Street, the denial was strong among them after Swindon.
Their comfort was in 2015 the exit poll had them on 316 and they still won a majority, last week the exit poll had them on 314.
I'm looking at the text on my phone - 21.29 last Thursday. Still expecting 40-70 seat majority.
But, @TSE I disagree with you that we should let Lab in with an election. Whatever flavour of agreement or minority government occurs, it will be better than a Lab govt headed by the gruesome threesome.
In so advocating, you are forgetting perhaps the most important element of politics: events. A lot can happen and will happen in the run up to Brexit and beyond and to try to forecast out to six branches of the binomial tree is foolish; it is by no means certain that after four years of Lab they will be kicked out again.
As long times in politics go, the last 168 hours must have been among the longest. Is there anyone who really believes the Tories can do another 259 of these?
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
I was always puzzled by why Tory MPs were so effortlessly fooled by May.
She submarined during EuroRef only to surface to give the most disingenuous, stab Cameron in the back, 'Pro' Europe speech imaginable as she nakedly triangulated in on her Leadership bid.
I thought she was so even more obviously angling for PM than Boris in a way that struck me as unseemly.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
I think it's far too early to be talking about another general election! OK, this parliament and government both look dysfunctional at the moment... but we elected them so they (all parties) at least owe it to the electorate to try to make it work. It's only been a week, after all.
If May (the PM) goes very soon then things should stabilise enough for this parliament to run through until next May (the month). I honestly think that's the very earliest that the British people will tolerate another GE.
As long times in politics go, the last 168 hours must have been among the longest. Is there anyone who really believes the Tories can do another 259 of these?
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
UKIP - As someone once said, they haven't gone away you know...
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
He is a very good campaigner, and good with voters. But his actual work behind a desk is awful and he has no idea how to build a team, let alone a cabinet.
I was a Cameron fan, never 100% him policy wise most of the time but as a leader and a person he seemed a committed public servant and dedicated to his job and party. He always put the party first, even if it came back to bite him on the bum. I at first thought May had learnt from him and was going to do the same, but I should have seen the warning signs (high staff turnover) that this wasn't happening.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Is one of them you?
No.
I'm struggling to think who the third one might be that's all.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Indeed, I've seen tower blocks refurbished similarly.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
As long times in politics go, the last 168 hours must have been among the longest. Is there anyone who really believes the Tories can do another 259 of these?
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
It's an interesting idea - to put Brexit on hold until we are ready, which might be never. It won't fly however because the EU want to put this to bed. In or out and that's it.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
I agree, it is genuinely terrifying and the only thing keeping me on HMS May, disappointing as that is.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
To be fair, if there was one think Stalin knew about it was strong and stable government.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Can't help feeling that we will find some global warming crap at the root of this. It was more important to reduce heat loss than to worry about whether we were creating a chimney.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
To be fair, if there was one think Stalin knew about it was strong and stable government.
Strong government certainly but stable ?
One day you might be conducting a purge and the next find yourself being purged.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
Because he is a small minded petty Heathite who can't accept he brought about his own downfall?
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Is one of them you?
No.
I'm struggling to think who the third one might be that's all.
Dave, George, and Ruth.
If it wasn't for her the SNP would have had a great night last week and the Union would have been killed stone dead by now.
She has the ability to bring people to her. That's what our PM needs right now.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Indeed, I've seen tower blocks refurbished similarly.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
If you read something that casually insinuates it is all the fault of the Tories/rich/capitalists, then it was probably the Guardian that you were reading.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
Because he is a small minded petty Heathite who can't accept he brought about his own downfall?
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
Because he is a small minded petty Heathite who can't accept he brought about his own downfall?
Surely you have a bust of him above the fire, Richard?
As long times in politics go, the last 168 hours must have been among the longest. Is there anyone who really believes the Tories can do another 259 of these?
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
UKIP - As someone once said, they haven't gone away you know...
Exactly. If there was any attempt to actually renege on leaving the EU, UKIP, in one form or another would be back all the stronger. All those people who maybe reluctantly voted Leave, unsure whether they were doing the right thing, would be back as fervent Leavers.
You don't give people a vote and they ignore it because you think you know better.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Can't help feeling that we will find some global warming crap at the root of this. It was more important to reduce heat loss than to worry about whether we were creating a chimney.
Doesn't fit with the narrative. It was May's fault.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Indeed, I've seen tower blocks refurbished similarly.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
It's in the planning report, see summary on final page and further detail therein.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
Very few have that gift, and Cameron was an immensely talented politician, unlike his successor.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
He is a very good campaigner, and good with voters. But his actual work behind a desk is awful and he has no idea how to build a team, let alone a cabinet.
I was a Cameron fan, never 100% him policy wise most of the time but as a leader and a person he seemed a committed public servant and dedicated to his job and party. He always put the party first, even if it came back to bite him on the bum. I at first thought May had learnt from him and was going to do the same, but I should have seen the warning signs (high staff turnover) that this wasn't happening.
Exactly. He'd have his strings pulled by McDonnell and Milne. The long term damage they would inflict on this country does not bear thinking about.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Indeed, I've seen tower blocks refurbished similarly.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
If you read something that casually insinuates it is all the fault of the Tories/rich/capitalists, then it was probably the Guardian that you were reading.
Very possibly.
Its the only proper newspaper still freely and fully available online.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Is one of them you?
No.
I'm struggling to think who the third one might be that's all.
Dave, George, and Ruth.
If it wasn't for her the SNP would have had a great night last week and the Union would have been killed stone dead by now.
She has the ability to bring people to her. That's what our PM needs right now.
Of course. How could I forget Ruth. Thanks. Her time may come.
I was by the end a definite leaver, quite sure of my conclusion, but there have been a lot of times recently when I have wondered if it was worth the cost.
If only someone had warned you about this before the vote....
Oh I knew that Cameron would be finished and that made me hesitate more than anything else but I did not contemplate that the Tories would make such a mess of things without him.
I did stress to you that a few years before electing Cameron, the Tory party elected IDS.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
He just made being PM look so effortless. I forgot what an incredibly impossible job it is.
One day my anger will subside against Leavers and Mrs May & her team.
Cameron brought it on himself to a great extent.
There's a reason why he hasn't spoken to Gove in nearly a year, and when he goes hunting likes to shoot Michaels and Borises.
Because he is a small minded petty Heathite who can't accept he brought about his own downfall?
Surely you have a bust of him above the fire, Richard?
The only bust I have is the one I got due to eating too much.
I bow to your superior fore-knowledge: you knew Theresa May was a useless old hulk, long before me.
So, what do the Tories do now?
It would be nice if we could throw up our hands and say Let Labour Win but we can't. Labour in power means Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, et al. A bunch of despicable traitors and communists. Literally: traitors.
The Tory party needs to sober up, stop sniffing the Brexit glue, and defend the country against this vileness. But who should lead?
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing is a new election.
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
Is one of them you?
No.
I'm struggling to think who the third one might be that's all.
Dave, George, and Ruth.
If it wasn't for her the SNP would have had a great night last week and the Union would have been killed stone dead by now.
She has the ability to bring people to her. That's what our PM needs right now.
If a future PM ennobled Cameron I think he would serve again, as something in the cabinet. His sense of duty is too strong for him to sit on the sidelines forever. Davidson is still building he power base in the party, not just the SCon's but the old Cameroons as well from what I can see. She is quite hard nosed after years in the trenches fighting the SNP, but she has to prove she can make policy as well as oppose. If she can do that she is a show in. Rudd is also quite hard nosed from the debates, not sure she is PM material but at least she seems tough and strong enough to manage her department. Something to build on. Apart from that it is slim pickings as BoJo is marmite.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
If May (the PM) goes very soon then things should stabilise enough for this parliament to run through until next May (the month). I honestly think that's the very earliest that the British people will tolerate another GE.
If - heaven forbid - the Tories are to govern for another term, it can only be in 2022. Labour will win easily an early election. I can see May lurching from disaster to disaster like Brown. There are the triple stenches of incompetence, corruption, and malignity surrounding the current Tory party, which will take some time to subside.
God I'm on the Westway now. First of all Grenfell Tower stands out eerily dark on its own. Second of all there are dozens of similar blocks of flats all around.
This is one thing which doesn't make sense to me.
We're told that cladding was installed so the millionaires in the posh houses would have their view enhanced.
But they haven't installed cladding on every tower block in the area surely ?
I thought the principal reason for the cladding was to improve insulation, and for weatherproofing. It is quite common, and several blocks in Leicester have been reskinned this way.
Indeed, I've seen tower blocks refurbished similarly.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
If you read something that casually insinuates it is all the fault of the Tories/rich/capitalists, then it was probably the Guardian that you were reading.
Very possibly.
Its the only proper newspaper still freely and fully available online.
And how important has that been? It is the first place many turn for "proper" news. Particularly those under 45.
The tories dont seem to realise how popular Corbyn is. Those pictures of him hugging the fire victims whilst May hides away echoes what happened during the election. Despite his other faults, he cares about the common man and voters, and that shows in his actions. Can you name a Tory, Cameron aside, who can portray that?
Be interesting to see how Tobias Elwood does on a presumably hostile BBCQT tonight. Given his Cameronite views, army background, relatively safe seat and terrorist fighting heroics the 100/1 at Corals on him being next Tory leader seems an ok long shot.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
How many people didn't vote for Corbyn because they though he wasn't a serious option? Being taken seriously is ALWAYS better for a politician.
As long times in politics go, the last 168 hours must have been among the longest. Is there anyone who really believes the Tories can do another 259 of these?
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
UKIP - As someone once said, they haven't gone away you know...
Exactly. If there was any attempt to actually renege on leaving the EU, UKIP, in one form or another would be back all the stronger. All those people who maybe reluctantly voted Leave, unsure whether they were doing the right thing, would be back as fervent Leavers.
You don't give people a vote and they ignore it because you think you know better.
Are you sure enough people care? I'm not saying you're wrong, but is there any evidence either way? The referendum came off the back of over a decade of carefully nurtured grievance, fanned by Cameron to win in 2015. For obvious reasons, the normal technique of blaming all failings of British government on the EU stopped last June. The campaign became "we must have Brexit, and only I can do it well" rather than "the EU is ruining our country". How easy will it be to rev the electorate up to to the point of once again believing that EU exit is more important than the domestic issues that we are dealing with?
If May (the PM) goes very soon then things should stabilise enough for this parliament to run through until next May (the month). I honestly think that's the very earliest that the British people will tolerate another GE.
If - heaven forbid - the Tories are to govern for another term, it can only be in 2022. Labour will win easily an early election. I can see May lurching from disaster to disaster like Brown. There are the triple stenches of incompetence, corruption, and malignity surrounding the current Tory party, which will take some time to subside.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
How come there's been a further bounce for Labour in the polls since the election, even after it became clear he was a serious contender for office, then?
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
How many voted for May in the belief she would be best PM? After today, there will be fewer. Also, there are that small, but important group who like to associate with the winner. Political "glory hunters". No, I can't comprehend that either, but they do exist!
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
Indeed.
Plus a Corbyn who was expected to be a possible PM would have his policies and associates checked with far greater rigour.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
How many voted for May in the belief she would be best PM? After today, there will be fewer. Also, there are that small, but important group who like to associate with the winner. Political "glory hunters". No, I can't comprehend that either, but they do exist!
May won't fight another election as Tory leader. I think everyone agrees on that. But she could be in Downing Street for another 3 or 4 years.
1 week and 34 minutes ago, the Exit Poll came out. The world was no longer the same place.
How many people voted for Corbyn thinking he had no chance of winning? Conversely, how many soft Tories decided not to support May because they didn't want her to win an enormous majority? It could be very different if Corbyn is a serious option for office.
How come there's been a further bounce for Labour in the polls since the election, even after it became clear he was a serious contender for office, then?
Because people are reacting to May's misjudgment over the election. By definition, that wasn't apparent until the results were known. If you go into an election expecting to increase your majority and you end up losing it you're inevitably going to look like a fool and therefore lose even more support afterwards. It's irrelevant because May won't face the voters again, except perhaps in her own constituency.
Comments
Where's that from?
I read it was to bring the flats up to modern standards of insulation (although it could have fulfilled both requirements at once: given better insulation and looked better).
Labour win with a manifesto pledge that says they will have a jobs and economy first Brexit.
Which is sufficiently vagueenough to have an EEA/EFTA style Brexit, or a five year transition deal that sees us remain in the single market and customs union.
When the Tories obsess about Europe, it doesn't end well. they'll do less harm in opposition.
The three Tories who can fix this aren't MPs.
I don't believe when push comes to shove the public will choose Corbyn as PM. There are still enough sensible people in this country to know the damage he would do. I know what current polling says - but that does not mean a jot, as the Tories have just found out.
With either Boris or Ruth as leaders, and a campaign run on the economy and low taxes, I see no reason why the Tories can't turn this around to great effect.
https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/875394454110294016
I had just about got up of the floor where I had collapsed to my knees.
Plus he would have a small majority.
Their comfort was in 2015 the exit poll had them on 316 and they still won a majority, last week the exit poll had them on 314.
Forget about startup. Is that too much to ask?
i use the sportscentre regularly, the squash courts are permanently out of action due to persistent leaks, the roof of the main hall leaks every time it rains and i am reliably informed that only one of the three womans changing rooms is usable - non functional toilets and showers preventing the others from being used.
basically extremely shoddy work - david lammy may not he far off the mark when he talks about corporate manslaughter
From just one thread in June 2015;
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/06/15/it-is-jez-we-can-as-corbyn-makes-it-on-to-the-labour-leadership-ballot/ Among others.
I recall reading several other similar posts from PB rightwingers around that time but cba spending more than 5 mins searching.
You should brace yourself that Cameron might be the only Tory to win a majority for 40-50 years.
Still, at least the French have got rid of the extremists from both sides. Maybe they are starting to grow up, and we are starting to regress with the rise of far left populism.
What a strange world we live in.
KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
While it does make rejoining the EU easier, it will not satisfy the hard Brexiterrs, though one wonders what could.
Now he has to prove he's more than just a youthful face and a nice haircut. Forgive me for some scepticism.
She submarined during EuroRef only to surface to give the most disingenuous, stab Cameron in the back, 'Pro' Europe speech imaginable as she nakedly triangulated in on her Leadership bid.
I thought she was so even more obviously angling for PM than Boris in a way that struck me as unseemly.
Does make you wonder how Corbyn would cope - God forbid - if he ever became PM. A man who failed his A levels. Could anyone see him thinking on his feet away from his adoring teenage groupees? Imagine if we ever came under attack, or some other military action was required, or there was a crash in the stock market. Anything that needed quick, decisive action.
Seamus Milne would be the de facto PM. A Stalinist. Fucking horrifying.
But, @TSE I disagree with you that we should let Lab in with an election. Whatever flavour of agreement or minority government occurs, it will be better than a Lab govt headed by the gruesome threesome.
In so advocating, you are forgetting perhaps the most important element of politics: events. A lot can happen and will happen in the run up to Brexit and beyond and to try to forecast out to six branches of the binomial tree is foolish; it is by no means certain that after four years of Lab they will be kicked out again.
One thing that puzzles me is the sense of necessity around Brexit. To a non-believer it looks like the UKIP party is over. The Tories don't have to shore up that flank now, surely? UKIP has no meaningful existence and provided the Tories are no more pro-European than Labour the issue has lost its electoral potency. It's too early for a party to say they won't do it, but by now a more measured, long-term approach which might include revocation of article 50 until we have a strong and stable government seems completely viable.
If May (the PM) goes very soon then things should stabilise enough for this parliament to run through until next May (the month). I honestly think that's the very earliest that the British people will tolerate another GE.
I was a Cameron fan, never 100% him policy wise most of the time but as a leader and a person he seemed a committed public servant and dedicated to his job and party. He always put the party first, even if it came back to bite him on the bum.
I at first thought May had learnt from him and was going to do the same, but I should have seen the warning signs (high staff turnover) that this wasn't happening.
But I'm sure I've read / heard people claiming that this case was done to improve the view of the rich people.
I dare say people pedalling this line have their own reasons for so doing.
One day you might be conducting a purge and the next find yourself being purged.
If it wasn't for her the SNP would have had a great night last week and the Union would have been killed stone dead by now.
She has the ability to bring people to her. That's what our PM needs right now.
You don't give people a vote and they ignore it because you think you know better.
https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Report-1180275.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=1180275&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1
Its the only proper newspaper still freely and fully available online.
https://twitter.com/Kirstene4Angus/status/875464805603094528
If you look at what I wrote I said that it didn't make sense to me.
But there will be no shortage of people who will want to believe it to be the case.
Davidson is still building he power base in the party, not just the SCon's but the old Cameroons as well from what I can see. She is quite hard nosed after years in the trenches fighting the SNP, but she has to prove she can make policy as well as oppose. If she can do that she is a show in.
Rudd is also quite hard nosed from the debates, not sure she is PM material but at least she seems tough and strong enough to manage her department. Something to build on.
Apart from that it is slim pickings as BoJo is marmite.
No, I can't comprehend that either, but they do exist!
Plus a Corbyn who was expected to be a possible PM would have his policies and associates checked with far greater rigour.