Anyway, having been up for far too long all day and night, I've grabbed a few hours sleep, but thought I'd pop on as I'll likely give PB a bit of a break from my ramblings for a bit, and wouldn't want people to think that just because I was so very very wrong about things that I was too embarrassed to show my face
Congratulations to Corbyn and well done young people, and others, for turning out; very tough times are ahead now (not that things were simple before) and I do think things will get worse before they get better, but let us see Corbyn and May and the rest actually do their jobs and lead this nation. That doesn't mean I expect them to join hands and sing Kumbaya, but the government needs to get smarter and more cautious about what it tries to do, and the opposition, flush with momentum and thoughts of a win in 2022 to look forward to, need to do the same when they challenge what the government is doing as well. Brinkmanship is popular, but everyone needs to be grown ups now.
I hope they are up to it.
And now back to more pleasant matters, the realms of fiction: I'm reading 'Wool' by Hugh Howey - so far it is about a world of scarcity and a hostile outside environment, where the established order is breaking down into chaos as factions battle for control and the very survival of their world is at stake. Seems far fetched
We don't need a break from your ramblings.
Kind of you to say - but I probably need a break.
Do people think this would be a good time to admit to my exulting Corbynite relatives that I voted Tory? Granted, they got fewer votes, but they are closer to feeling victorious than the Tories, so might be more inclined to treat the news magnanimously.
No, don't, they'll spend the next few years alternating between trying to convert you to the Corbyn cause or calling you Tory scum.
Oh to be a fly on the wall when May meets Her Maj. Publicly she has to stay out of Politics but privately she does hold views and is not afraid to air them. Lot of ex PM's say that.
Hopefully Her Maj will have some cogent advice on how to deal with a crisis!
Make Prince Harry PM, he couldn't be any worse....
@wallaceme: Nicola Sturgeon says that as she got most votes and seats she won the election, and as Theresa May got most votes and seats she has lost.
I suppose if Tessy had won a majority of seats she could say she'd won the election she called. But since she didn't, she can't.
It's a fine distinction, but valid, although prize goes to whoever can command a majority even if they fall short of one entirely on their own, as Holyrood shows. The largest is still the closest to winning the actual goal of a majority, even if the fell short of a proper victory.
Anyway, having been up for far too long all day and night, I've grabbed a few hours sleep, but thought I'd pop on as I'll likely give PB a bit of a break from my ramblings for a bit, and wouldn't want people to think that just because I was so very very wrong about things that I was too embarrassed to show my face
Congratulations to Corbyn and well done young people, and others, for turning out; very tough times are ahead now (not that things were simple before) and I do think things will get worse before they get better, but let us see Corbyn and May and the rest actually do their jobs and lead this nation. That doesn't mean I expect them to join hands and sing Kumbaya, but the government needs to get smarter and more cautious about what it tries to do, and the opposition, flush with momentum and thoughts of a win in 2022 to look forward to, need to do the same when they challenge what the government is doing as well. Brinkmanship is popular, but everyone needs to be grown ups now.
I hope they are up to it.
And now back to more pleasant matters, the realms of fiction: I'm reading 'Wool' by Hugh Howey - so far it is about a world of scarcity and a hostile outside environment, where the established order is breaking down into chaos as factions battle for control and the very survival of their world is at stake. Seems far fetched
We don't need a break from your ramblings.
Kind of you to say - but I probably need a break.
Do people think this would be a good time to admit to my exulting Corbynite relatives that I voted Tory? Granted, they got fewer votes, but they are closer to feeling victorious than the Tories, so might be more inclined to treat the news magnanimously.
Thank the lord I didn't vote Tory! I wavered for a moment, but couldn't do it
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
There is no way that manifesto was properly focus grouped...for starters no Tory / Tory leaners on here thought it was any good at all (and that is being generous).
If it had been focus grouped, I'm sure that the social care issue would have been reduced to "there will be a review".
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
Anyone think the cabinet choices will be interesting? For one I think she is going to have to ditch her advisers, some might not take up a position in cabinet unless they go.
And she is going to have to change her style of government, less command and control more collective government.
I think she is going to have to now bring in Gove (who is a snake in my view) and others because she will have no choice.
ER - I'm taking you at your word. We need strong and stable government and that means without you. Enough is enough. Do you have George Osborne's number on speed dial or have I got to ask TSE over at PB for it ?
TM - But .... er ....
ER - No Prime Minister is better than a bad Prime Minister. Mind the corgis on the way out ....
Anyway, having been up for far too long all day and night, I've grabbed a few hours sleep, but thought I'd pop on as I'll likely give PB a bit of a break from my ramblings for a bit, and wouldn't want people to think that just because I was so very very wrong about things that I was too embarrassed to show my face
Congratulations to Corbyn and well done young people, and others, for turning out; very tough times are ahead now (not that things were simple before) and I do think things will get worse before they get better, but let us see Corbyn and May and the rest actually do their jobs and lead this nation. That doesn't mean I expect them to join hands and sing Kumbaya, but the government needs to get smarter and more cautious about what it tries to do, and the opposition, flush with momentum and thoughts of a win in 2022 to look forward to, need to do the same when they challenge what the government is doing as well. Brinkmanship is popular, but everyone needs to be grown ups now.
I hope they are up to it.
And now back to more pleasant matters, the realms of fiction: I'm reading 'Wool' by Hugh Howey - so far it is about a world of scarcity and a hostile outside environment, where the established order is breaking down into chaos as factions battle for control and the very survival of their world is at stake. Seems far fetched
We don't need a break from your ramblings.
especially as we need all the PB Tories we can get in the difficult days ahead..... owen jones is going to be EVERYWHERE.
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
There is no way that manifesto was properly focus grouped...for starters no Tory / Tory leaners on here thought it was any good at all (and that is being generous).
If it had been focus grouped, I'm sure that the social care issue would have been reduced to "there will be a review".
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
Totally agree with this. I wonder how many Tory seats would have been saved if they were able to deploy the Bonkster waving his £350 million a week promise? I bet quite a few, both because of him and the policy.
I would never want Boris to be PM, but the public genuinely like him and willing to at least give him a hearing.
A shout out to Tim Farron, Tom Brake, Norman Lamb and Alistair Carmichael, particularly Brake and Lamb. The ultimate LD survivors, well done them. The LDs are still in trouble though with Labour replacing them as second option in the south.
And, farewell for now everybody - may the victorious and wealthy gloat a little, let us always dig at each other's politics, but at the end of the day remember that more than anything else we are one people. No, not British - PBers!
It could be argued that if Con can be this near a majority with a terrible leader and a disastrous manifesto, then with a new attractive leader and retail policies then they might get a majority.
er...which is what Cameron did and was.
Indeed. If the Tories had any sense they'd be begging him to come back on hands and knees. Does anyone seriously doubt he would have slaughtered Corbyn. Only lobotomy candidates.
The vote was an anti austerity vote as much as anything, Cameron would not have got as many Kippers though he would have held more centrists and Corbyn even led him in one or 2 polls. I think Boris is the only leader who would have done better
The results in London, Reading, Canterbury to an extent and many other close shaves in Remain areas were entirely due to Brexit. Many of those areas have affluent populations. Corbyn led him in a couple of polls before UKIP went South. I'd also point out the Tories had poll leads of up to 8 percent under Cameron even in the run up to the referendum. I'd respectfully say that in a 2 horse race IDS would have struggled to do worse than May. Cameron would have been double figures ahead.
IDS at least appears to believe in something. After six weeks of campaigning, can anyone take a stab at describing Mayism?
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
Mr. kle4, can't recall if it's your cup of tea, but Kingdom Come Deliverance (RPG set in 1403 Bohemia) has a release date. Just announced today, February 2018. Looks rather good.
It could be argued that if Con can be this near a majority with a terrible leader and a disastrous manifesto, then with a new attractive leader and retail policies then they might get a majority.
er...which is what Cameron did and was.
Indeed. If the Tories had any sense they'd be begging him to come back on hands and knees. Does anyone seriously doubt he would have slaughtered Corbyn. Only lobotomy candidates.
The vote was an anti austerity vote as much as anything, Cameron would not have got as many Kippers though he would have held more centrists and Corbyn even led him in one or 2 polls. I think Boris is the only leader who would have done better
The results in London, Reading, Canterbury to an extent and many other close shaves in Remain areas were entirely due to Brexit. Many of those areas have affluent populations. Corbyn led him in a couple of polls before UKIP went South. I'd also point out the Tories had poll leads of up to 8 percent under Cameron even in the run up to the referendum. I'd respectfully say that in a 2 horse race IDS would have struggled to do worse than May. Cameron would have been double figures ahead.
May had big leads too but as you point out the UKIP vote was higher under Cameron so both the Tory and Labour voteshares would have been lower. The Tories have still won about 44% across GB under May, that is the highest voteshare since the 1980s for the party just the collapse of UKIP has also seen Labour up helped by their squeezing the LDs and Greens, however if we do end up with Soft Brexit now May or no May inevitably the UKIP vote would go back up again with Farage returning to lead them
Does May actually think that this will work, or does she just want the power?
Neither, but as an option it has to be tried - a new election would be problematic even if minority means certain loss in 2022, if they make it that long, and they have to try to move forward with governing now, even if it is hugely difficult.
Does May actually think that this will work, or does she just want the power?
It will take time for the Tories to choose a new leader. In the interim May has to remain as PM. So I don't know whether May is going to try and hang on and complete the Brexit negotiations, or is just managing the transition to a new leader.
Interesting that some in the EU are making noises about delaying the start of negotiations.
Time for us to eat some humble pie and ask for more time. May does not have a mandate for hard Brexit. She can form a government temporarily but she needs to resign and the Tories need to have a proper leadership election. Plus the Tories ought to be talking to the Lib Dems not just the DUP.
It is a mess.
Corbyn is certainly strengthened. I wonder if he will now reach out to others within Labour or whether they will work with him. Or will he use this result to tighten the hard Left's grip on Labour?
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
The versa of that vice is that Ipswich, Peterborough, Canterbury and the rest return to the Conservatives on a small swing the other way.
It could be argued that if Con can be this near a majority with a terrible leader and a disastrous manifesto, then with a new attractive leader and retail policies then they might get a majority.
er...which is what Cameron did and was.
Indeed. If the Tories had any sense they'd be begging him to come back on hands and knees. Does anyone seriously doubt he would have slaughtered Corbyn. Only lobotomy candidates.
The vote was an anti austerity vote as much as anything, Cameron would not have got as many Kippers though he would have held more centrists and Corbyn even led him in one or 2 polls. I think Boris is the only leader who would have done better
The results in London, Reading, Canterbury to an extent and many other close shaves in Remain areas were entirely due to Brexit. Many of those areas have affluent populations. Corbyn led him in a couple of polls before UKIP went South. I'd also point out the Tories had poll leads of up to 8 percent under Cameron even in the run up to the referendum. I'd respectfully say that in a 2 horse race IDS would have struggled to do worse than May. Cameron would have been double figures ahead.
IDS at least appears to believe in something. After six weeks of campaigning, can anyone take a stab at describing Mayism?
Mr. kle4, can't recall if it's your cup of tea, but Kingdom Come Deliverance (RPG set in 1403 Bohemia) has a release date. Just announced today, February 2018. Looks rather good.
Definitely my cup of tea. I guess if I take a break from PB I can actually get through my backlog of games, books and TV shows. Hmm, go outside or meet people? Crazy talk.
The main issue, though, is that the SNP have been in power too long. They are tired and arrogant.
I think the problem is the conflict of interest between the roles of nationalist party leader and First Minister. Sturgeon prefers the former, when she needs to focus on running Scotland.
@wallaceme: Nicola Sturgeon says that as she got most votes and seats she won the election, and as Theresa May got most votes and seats she has lost.
I suppose if Tessy had won a majority of seats she could say she'd won the election she called. But since she didn't, she can't.
It's a fine distinction, but valid, although prize goes to whoever can command a majority even if they fall short of one entirely on their own, as Holyrood shows. The largest is still the closest to winning the actual goal of a majority, even if the fell short of a proper victory.
Not a particularly fine distinction. If any party won 59% of seats in a FPTP election, the cries of landslide victory would be heard all the way to 2018. Winning less than 50% otoh...
In the end it was anti austerity which sent the largest protest vote as Corbyn made clear in his speech was the main reason for the increased Labour voteshare, coupled with anti 'dementia tax' not anti Brexit given the fact the LDs saw no real surge
I think it was partly Brexit too.
Only in some staunch Remain areas, the fact the Tories made some gains in Leave areas in any case counteracts that
There's no doubt that some middle class Tories lashed out over Brexit. I'm not sure they'd actually enjoy a Labour government. Others switched or stayed at home due to the toxic manifesto.
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
The same applies in reverse to the Tories, 2 party politics means big swings and seat gains in either direction but as long as that 44% stays blue so Corbyn cannot win
It could be argued that if Con can be this near a majority with a terrible leader and a disastrous manifesto, then with a new attractive leader and retail policies then they might get a majority.
er...which is what Cameron did and was.
Indeed. If the Tories had any sense they'd be begging him to come back on hands and knees. Does anyone seriously doubt he would have slaughtered Corbyn. Only lobotomy candidates.
The vote was an anti austerity vote as much as anything, Cameron would not have got as many Kippers though he would have held more centrists and Corbyn even led him in one or 2 polls. I think Boris is the only leader who would have done better
The results in London, Reading, Canterbury to an extent and many other close shaves in Remain areas were entirely due to Brexit. Many of those areas have affluent populations. Corbyn led him in a couple of polls before UKIP went South. I'd also point out the Tories had poll leads of up to 8 percent under Cameron even in the run up to the referendum. I'd respectfully say that in a 2 horse race IDS would have struggled to do worse than May. Cameron would have been double figures ahead.
IDS at least appears to believe in something. After six weeks of campaigning, can anyone take a stab at describing Mayism?
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
I remember reading that the only cabinet minister told about the dementia tax in advance was Jeremy Hunt.
It looks like if Labour had won 10 more seats they probably would have had enough to form a progressive alliance government with the SNP, LDs, Greens, PC and Corbyn would be heading for Downing Street.
Or if the SNP had not lost 11 seats to the Tories. Kezia may be regretting urging people to vote tory tactically.
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
I remember reading that the only cabinet minister told about the dementia tax in advance was Jeremy Hunt.
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
I remember reading that the only cabinet minister told about the dementia tax in advance was Jeremy Hunt.
And the daft twunt didn't say anything?
Because the proposal was an improvement on the status quo. The problem was that no-one who hadn't been directly affected understood the status quo.
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
Agree,the tories need someone who can connect with the young ,old ,poor,black ,white and so on - only one hope and that is ruth davidson.
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
Agree,the tories need someone who can connect with the young ,old ,poor,black ,white and so on,only one hope and that is ruth davidson.
If it had been focus grouped, I'm sure that the social care issue would have been reduced to "there will be a review".
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
Totally agree with this. I wonder how many Tory seats would have been saved if they were able to deploy the Bonkster waving his £350 million a week promise? I bet quite a few, both because of him and the policy.
I would never want Boris to be PM, but the public genuinely like him and willing to at least give him a hearing.
May could tap into parts of the country that Cameron and the posh boys couldn't. We can't know for sure whether Cameron could have got 13.6 million votes with 43.5% GB voteshare,* but if he did, it would surely have been with a substantially different voter coalition.
But Boris could reach people even May couldn't, hence 52%...
Anecdotal, I know, but I heard lots of working-class Leave voters (south of England) say Boris is the only Tory they trust. Yet he was invisible this campaign. Regardless of whether you would find him suitable PM material, there's no doubt he was one of the biggest potential vote-winners the Tories had at their disposal, and yet they benched him.
*(my quick calculation, apologies if it's cocked up)
True. But it didn't bother him when people with exactly the same views supported his party.
All he's showing is that his so-called principles are no such thing. They're just like coats: something you put on when convenient to you and discarded just as easily.
If there are lessons to be learned from this shambles it's that you need a bloody good back room team to pick apart and prepare presentations on the opponents manifesto and that you need a coordinated, united team to present them.
You also need a manifesto that everyone can get behind.
It sounds basic politics 101 but it's obvious the tories didn't have this time.
In the end it was anti austerity which sent the largest protest vote as Corbyn made clear in his speech was the main reason for the increased Labour voteshare, coupled with anti 'dementia tax' not anti Brexit given the fact the LDs saw no real surge
I think it was partly Brexit too.
Only in some staunch Remain areas, the fact the Tories made some gains in Leave areas in any case counteracts that
There's no doubt that some middle class Tories lashed out over Brexit. I'm not sure they'd actually enjoy a Labour government. Others switched or stayed at home due to the toxic manifesto.
The Tories need to ease off on austerity now spending as a percentage of gdp is closer to 40% than the 47% it was in 2010 and do a proper review of social care and how it is to be funded fairly, Brexit will probably be fudged to some degree but still go ahead
There's no way she'll be able to get the great repeal bill through The House of Commons
Edit - Or through the Lords.
The situation reminds of that episode of Peep Show where Mark says, "I am beginning to think that everything is completely fucked. You know, really fucked."
Mr. kle4, can't recall if it's your cup of tea, but Kingdom Come Deliverance (RPG set in 1403 Bohemia) has a release date. Just announced today, February 2018. Looks rather good.
Definitely my cup of tea. I guess if I take a break from PB I can actually get through my backlog of games, books and TV shows. Hmm, go outside or meet people? Crazy talk.
I said you were getting Stockholme syndrome with all these PB Tories have a well deserved break.
Oh to be a fly on the wall when May meets Her Maj. Publicly she has to stay out of Politics but privately she does hold views and is not afraid to air them. Lot of ex PM's say that.
Hopefully she'll bring her to her senses and tell her for gods sake just go!
There's no way she'll be able to get the great repeal bill through The House of Commons
Edit - Or through the Lords.
The situation reminds of that episode of Peep Show where Mark says, "I am beginning to think that everything is completely fucked. You know, really fucked."
Quite, and in a fresh election the same result may be returned.
If it had been focus grouped, I'm sure that the social care issue would have been reduced to "there will be a review".
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
Totally agree with this. I wonder how many Tory seats would have been saved if they were able to deploy the Bonkster waving his £350 million a week promise? I bet quite a few, both because of him and the policy.
I would never want Boris to be PM, but the public genuinely like him and willing to at least give him a hearing.
May could tap into parts of the country that Cameron and the posh boys couldn't. We can't know for sure whether Cameron could have got 13.6 million votes with 43.5% GB voteshare,* but if he did, it would surely have been with a substantially different voter coalition.
But Boris could reach people even May couldn't, hence 52%...
Anecdotal, I know, but I heard lots of working-class Leave voters (south of England) say Boris is the only Tory they trust. Yet he was invisible this campaign. Regardless of whether you would find him suitable PM material, there's no doubt he was one of the biggest potential vote-winners the Tories had at their disposal, and yet they benched him.
*(my quick calculation, apologies if it's cocked up)
The Conservatives have lost me as a voter. Boris isn't the person to get me back on board, and I doubt he'd appeal to others I know in the same situation.
So Cameron's still the only Tory to win a majority in the last 25 years.
Hurrah for the posh boys.
You plebs don't know how lucky you were to have him as PM for 6 years
I used to like him. Before he went doolally. If he and Geroge had only been on the right side in Brexit none of this shit would have happened. We'd have had Dave n George negotiating our soft exit and Labour in opposition still tearing itself apart.
True. But it didn't bother him when people with exactly the same views supported his party.
All he's showing is that his so-called principles are no such thing. They're just like coats: something you put on when convenient to you and discarded just as easily.
If there are lessons to be learned from this shambles it's that you need a bloody good back room team to pick apart and prepare presentations on the opponents manifesto and that you need a coordinated, united team to present them.
You also need a manifesto that everyone can get behind.
It sounds basic politics 101 but it's obvious the tories didn't have this time.
I'm so angry I could spit!
Or maybe Tories just need to be a little less greedy and a little less arrogant. They spent too much time in the back room and too much time attacking.
They never paused to ask whether they were doing the right thing
@wallaceme: Nicola Sturgeon says that as she got most votes and seats she won the election, and as Theresa May got most votes and seats she has lost.
Impeccable logic. May has seats with wafer thin majorities like Richmond which leave her desperately unsafe. Nothing like the rock solid majorities the SNP got in places like Fife North East and Perth and North Perthshire.
Why would anyone believe Mrs May gratuitously insulting our EU partners would be a vote winner? It never made sense and I doubt very much that it impressed the younger and more educated voters. Add to that ingratiating herself with Trump and the Saudis and wanting to re-introdce fox hunting and grammar schools and you start to see why the young in particular were ultimately repelled.
If it had been focus grouped, I'm sure that the social care issue would have been reduced to "there will be a review".
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
Totally agree with this. I wonder how many Tory seats would have been saved if they were able to deploy the Bonkster waving his £350 million a week promise? I bet quite a few, both because of him and the policy.
I would never want Boris to be PM, but the public genuinely like him and willing to at least give him a hearing.
May could tap into parts of the country that Cameron and the posh boys couldn't. We can't know for sure whether Cameron could have got 13.6 million votes with 43.5% GB voteshare,* but if he did, it would surely have been with a substantially different voter coalition.
But Boris could reach people even May couldn't, hence 52%...
Anecdotal, I know, but I heard lots of working-class Leave voters (south of England) say Boris is the only Tory they trust. Yet he was invisible this campaign. Regardless of whether you would find him suitable PM material, there's no doubt he was one of the biggest potential vote-winners the Tories had at their disposal, and yet they benched him.
*(my quick calculation, apologies if it's cocked up)
The Conservatives have lost me as a voter. Boris isn't the person to get me back on board, and I doubt he'd appeal to others I know in the same situation.
We need to see some polls about potential future leaders but I expect Boris and Davidson would come top
York Central massive Maj for Rachael Maskell.Even where I live York Outer massive increase in Labour vote.There was a bloke on UK poling report predicting early yesterday Labour win in Canterbury he was ridiculed .
So Cameron's still the only Tory to win a majority in the last 25 years.
Hurrah for the posh boys.
You plebs don't know how lucky you were to have him as PM for 6 years
I used to like him. Before he went doolally. If he and Geroge had only been on the right side in Brexit none of this shit would have happened. We'd have had Dave n George negotiating our soft exit and Labour in opposition still tearing itself apart.
No.
This happened because too many so-called conservatives went doolally over the EU.
The same people who brought down Major also brought down Cameron and Osborne. With much the same effect to the party.
I just wish I had been more vocal and trenchant in my criticism of Theresa May before the election.
She was doing fine before the election, it's what she did in the past 7 weeks that was the problem. I refuse to believe she couldn't have done better, unfortunately she must take the blame for the advice she took and believing she didn't need the help of some of the big beasts.
I'd be fascinated to know how much wonk-power and focus grouping etc was put into their manifesto, let alone critical input from experienced Tory politicians.
Suspect the answer is "back of a fag packet".
I remember reading that the only cabinet minister told about the dementia tax in advance was Jeremy Hunt.
And the daft twunt didn't say anything?
Because the proposal was an improvement on the status quo. The problem was that no-one who hadn't been directly affected understood the status quo.
They tried to spin it as an improvement of the status quo, but that was only the case for some people. It wasn't believed.
True. But it didn't bother him when people with exactly the same views supported his party.
All he's showing is that his so-called principles are no such thing. They're just like coats: something you put on when convenient to you and discarded just as easily.
He's a condescending little arse-weasel.
He has a point Tories have been hurling mud around.
Will any Tories be brave enough to refuse cabinet seats or call on May to go to her face?
I think they will only agree if she agrees to jump in 10 days and trigger a leadership election, tbh, the party may just no confidence her with Graham Brady.
In other news, I have renewed my party membership after letting it lapse earlier this year when I realised how awful Theresa was. Time to look forwards and make the best of it I think,
Get a good leader in and the Tories should win a majority next election.
Labour is well on course to win the next election whenever it comes.
Not with 44% of the country and over 300 seats against them, Labour will be a strong opposition now that does not mean the country wants them in government
what? The tories have a 2% lead. Wake up. Labour only need a 1% swing to take dozens of seats, and their vote is very efficient now.
Agree,the tories need someone who can connect with the young ,old ,poor,black ,white and so on,only one hope and that is ruth davidson.
No, let her finish her job up north.
She can do more for the tories in Scotland by leading the british conservative party.
Impeccable logic. May has seats with wafer thin majorities like Richmond which leave her desperately unsafe. Nothing like the rock solid majorities the SNP got in places like Fife North East and Perth and North Perthshire.
13/8 on Farage next permanent UKIP leader with Ladbrokes. I've had £50 on it, everyone else in UKIP is a pygmy and Farage's comments suggest he might be considering a return. If he stood he'd win.
I doubt the veracity of Jones' claim to be gay, I think he finds it psychologically necessary to adopt a victim label. Soon he'll settle down with a nice heiress and have a litter of budding left activists.
I wonder whether Mark Senior is chuckling just a little at the irony of the Tories decimating the LibDems in 2015 has also likely led to the demise of two Conservative Prime Ministers in two years.
Interesting that some in the EU are making noises about delaying the start of negotiations.
Time for us to eat some humble pie and ask for more time. May does not have a mandate for hard Brexit. She can form a government temporarily but she needs to resign and the Tories need to have a proper leadership election. Plus the Tories ought to be talking to the Lib Dems not just the DUP.
It is a mess.
Corbyn is certainly strengthened. I wonder if he will now reach out to others within Labour or whether they will work with him. Or will he use this result to tighten the hard Left's grip on Labour?
I'm not sure Brexit can be passed on a party-political basis anymore, which might be for the best.
Tories should reach out to moderate Labour MPs and the few eurorealist Lib-Dem MPs.
Comments
If they'd taken input from others, I think we'd have seen "£350m a week for the NHS" - a relatively cheap promise if a 5-year target, given inflation. Boris/Gove were apparently genuinely committed to the idea - I read somewhere from someone on the Leave campaign IIRC that if Boris had become PM, perhaps with Chancellor Gove, it was one of their Day One priorities. This was a serious trick missed by the Tories, particularly because it would have allowed them to deploy Boris in "national electoral asset mode" rather than "buffoon mode". (My view on Boris is that he's good if you give him a retail offer to sell, but if he is just "there", being Boris, he's taking attention away from what you're supposedly campaigning on.)
I'd be surprised if a manifesto is ever launched again without careful focus grouping first. But then again, party leaders should have learned by now to keep their mouths shut on gays and fox-hunting, and that didn't happen either.
And she is going to have to change her style of government, less command and control more collective government.
I think she is going to have to now bring in Gove (who is a snake in my view) and others because she will have no choice.
TM - Good afternoon your majesty.
ER - I'm taking you at your word. We need strong and stable government and that means without you. Enough is enough. Do you have George Osborne's number on speed dial or have I got to ask TSE over at PB for it ?
TM - But .... er ....
ER - No Prime Minister is better than a bad Prime Minister. Mind the corgis on the way out ....
I would never want Boris to be PM, but the public genuinely like him and willing to at least give him a hearing.
A shout out to Tim Farron, Tom Brake, Norman Lamb and Alistair Carmichael, particularly Brake and Lamb. The ultimate LD survivors, well done them. The LDs are still in trouble though with Labour replacing them as second option in the south.
And, farewell for now everybody - may the victorious and wealthy gloat a little, let us always dig at each other's politics, but at the end of the day remember that more than anything else we are one people. No, not British - PBers!
http://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/john-cleese-slammed-after-deeming-general-election-vote-utterly-worthless-a3561176.html
Time for us to eat some humble pie and ask for more time. May does not have a mandate for hard Brexit. She can form a government temporarily but she needs to resign and the Tories need to have a proper leadership election. Plus the Tories ought to be talking to the Lib Dems not just the DUP.
It is a mess.
Corbyn is certainly strengthened. I wonder if he will now reach out to others within Labour or whether they will work with him. Or will he use this result to tighten the hard Left's grip on Labour?
Mayism means Mayism.
If any party won 59% of seats in a FPTP election, the cries of landslide victory would be heard all the way to 2018. Winning less than 50% otoh...
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/873137182181138432
Hurrah for the posh boys.
You plebs don't know how lucky you were to have him as PM for 6 years
Hope no financial damage incurred anyway.
But Boris could reach people even May couldn't, hence 52%...
Anecdotal, I know, but I heard lots of working-class Leave voters (south of England) say Boris is the only Tory they trust. Yet he was invisible this campaign. Regardless of whether you would find him suitable PM material, there's no doubt he was one of the biggest potential vote-winners the Tories had at their disposal, and yet they benched him.
*(my quick calculation, apologies if it's cocked up)
All he's showing is that his so-called principles are no such thing. They're just like coats: something you put on when convenient to you and discarded just as easily.
You also need a manifesto that everyone can get behind.
It sounds basic politics 101 but it's obvious the tories didn't have this time.
I'm so angry I could spit!
Osborne and Cameron come out of last night much enhanced.
I might have made a couple of hundred quid last night, thanks to Ruth Davidson, but I too have a lot of hard thinking to do.
They never paused to ask whether they were doing the right thing
Could be a strategic masterstroke.
This happened because too many so-called conservatives went doolally over the EU.
The same people who brought down Major also brought down Cameron and Osborne. With much the same effect to the party.
Funny business this politics game.
Tories should reach out to moderate Labour MPs and the few eurorealist Lib-Dem MPs.