Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More worrying numbers for Team Theresa as doubts amongst punte

1246715

Comments

  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Cyclefree said:

    Anecdote alert:

    In Hampstead and Kilburn Labour won last time with a very small majority. The Lib Dems were a long long way behind. So this is a marginal where the Tories really should be confident of winning and should be putting some effort into.

    And yet the only party that I can see regularly leafleting etc are the Lib Dems who have absolutely no chance here unless something amazing happens. The Tories sent a leaflet once at the very start. The Labour MP actually bothered to canvass and was personally impressive. Either the Tories think it in the bag or they are focusing their efforts elsewhere in the constituency or they are being useless/complacent.

    Sounds like tories have given up on that seat tbh....
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554

    I seem to recall another election where YouGov volume of polling output was distorting what other polls were suggesting..... and also there was often the holiday polling hypothesis. Are these both redundant now?

    Yes.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited June 2017
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Now I understand why Remain didn't use Theresa May during EU Ref campaign.

    Maybe they should have smuggled her into the Leave camp? Think what she could have done to their vote share :D
    A bit unfair, she gave a good speech on why Britain should stay in the EU that TOPPING linked below. She clearly didn't sign up to the project fear aspects (although she's doing that no with the no deal stuff)
    Fair enough, but her behaviour makes me wonder. If she was a Remainer, why would she want to be a PM who has to be a "Leave" PM? Either she was never a Remainer and was just following Cabinet policy or if she was a Remainer then the lure of power was too much to resist.
    It's possible that she genuinely thought that her Home Office EU negotiations could be used as a model for Brexit and didn't appreciate the gravity of the decisions that will need to be made. It's certainly my impression that one of the main factors in pushing her to go for an early election was the realisation that she was going 'alone and naked' into the negotiations.
    Then we are heading up S**t Creek and the paddles are going overboard.

    That is, without doubt, the case. And May has blown her chances of a White Cliffs of Dover, We Shall Never Surrender Brexit by being so useless. The Tories are going to get rid of her sooner rather than later, I imagine. But who takes over who can keep them together?

    If she wins a decent majority - 50+ - she'll survive, if she gets over 80 or 100 everyone will forget her dire campaign (until the next one).

    As for Brexit, I foresee something like this: talks begin and almost immediately stalemate on the EU's demands. The government has a vast internal battle, as it becomes obvious that the choice is between Crash Brexit and Soft Brexit (stay in SM etc), because there is no Bespoke Brexit that is acceptable to the UK.

    Who wins? Dunno.
    You continue to fantasize about Soft BrExit, its like the yeti, lots of people talk about it, but there isn't the faintest shred of evidence that it exists. Every word that has passed the lips of every EU official and negotiator for the past year has been very, mononotously clear, its hard BrExit or No BrExit.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,136
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Now I understand why Remain didn't use Theresa May during EU Ref campaign.

    Maybe they should have smuggled her into the Leave camp? Think what she could have done to their vote share :D
    A bit unfair, she gave a good speech on why Britain should stay in the EU that TOPPING linked below. She clearly didn't sign up to the project fear aspects (although she's doing that no with the no deal stuff)
    Fair enough, but her behaviour makes me wonder. If she was a Remainer, why would she want to be a PM who has to be a "Leave" PM? Either she was never a Remainer and was just following Cabinet policy or if she was a Remainer then the lure of power was too much to resist.
    It's possible that she genuinely thought that her Home Office EU negotiations could be used as a model for Brexit and didn't appreciate the gravity of the decisions that will need to be made. It's certainly my impression that one of the main factors in pushing her to go for an early election was the realisation that she was going 'alone and naked' into the negotiations.
    Then we are heading up S**t Creek and the paddles are going overboard.

    That is, without doubt, the case. And May has blown her chances of a White Cliffs of Dover, We Shall Never Surrender Brexit by being so useless. The Tories are going to get rid of her sooner rather than later, I imagine. But who takes over who can keep them together?

    I wonder if it will ever get so FUBAR that people will start yelling "STOP"?

    Even some of the Leavers on here seem to getting a bit lukewarm on the whole process
    People are entitled to change their mind. What I don't see is the mechanism by which such a change of mind could be implemented before the March 2019 deadline? What if the rest of the EU says "no" to a request to stay in?
    What makes it really implausible that they would have to say "yes" unanimously, and any one of them could attach any condition it liked to saying "yes".
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,942
    Tories - start to get worried when any non-YouGov poll shows Labour doing OK in the Midlands. Until then, you are absolutely fine. There is not much more Labour can get from London.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,472

    That's a 4% swing to Labour from the Conservatives, I think. On a uniform basis, that would win Labour the following seats:

    Croydon Central
    Hendon

    There aren't many marginals in London.

    How many votes for Corbyn's Labour nationwide would that represent soaking up? 300-400k?
  • Options
    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    That's a 4% swing to Labour from the Conservatives, I think. On a uniform basis, that would win Labour the following seats:

    Croydon Central
    Hendon

    There aren't many marginals in London.

    Brief and surprisingly aimless karate (8,5)
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    This does indeed feel like Brexit and trump........ffs May! What have you done!
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195

    That's a 4% swing to Labour from the Conservatives, I think. On a uniform basis, that would win Labour the following seats:

    Croydon Central
    Hendon

    There aren't many marginals in London.

    Labour are still 16-1 in Brighton Pavillion, do you think that's value?
  • Options
    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712
    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    I wouldn't want you next to me in the trenches!
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    felix said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    SeanT said:
    That's landslide territory, if those seats are in contention? I don't even know what is going on anymore.
    do we know the seats?
    Guisborough is mentioned on Guardian blog.
    No such seat - nearest is Gainsborough with a 15000 tory majority!
    Guisborough is the Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (lab majority ~2,200) which would make sense
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    edited June 2017
    Well I'm off to spend the afternoon with Wonder Woman.

    Panelbase out this afternoon.

    YouGov Wales circa 4pm.

    Play nicely, and someone for the love of everything holy, please keep an eye on SeanT's blood pressure.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,283
    Telegraph:

    "If the misnamed Tory dementia tax damaged May, Labour’s infinitely more radical Garden Tax would annihilate Jeremy Corbyn – if only the middle classes were aware of it. So why, oh why, are the Tories not making more of it? Why is it not on every piece of literature?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/31/labours-brutal-garden-tax-would-confiscate-middle-englands-wealth/
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    tlg86 said:

    That's a 4% swing to Labour from the Conservatives, I think. On a uniform basis, that would win Labour the following seats:

    Croydon Central
    Hendon

    There aren't many marginals in London.

    Labour are still 16-1 in Brighton Pavillion, do you think that's value?
    Every other house has a Lucas poster
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Borough, because the Conservative campaign is dire.

    Anyway, I'm off.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,136
    One other point about the "controversial YouGov model". It bases turnout for different socio-economic groups on data from 2010 and 2015. If there were a Corbyn effect increasing turnout among groups where it is historically low, the YouGov model would miss it. (On the other hand, of course they are saying that the model correctly projected a "Leave" victory in the referendum.)
  • Options
    TravelJunkieTravelJunkie Posts: 431
    Difference between 2015 and 2017.

    Conservatives have nothing to vote for there voting against someone. They have no policies to vote for.

    Theresa May wins the election and we have no idea what she is going to do for the next 5 years and everyone will feel deeply depressed because after stopping corbyn the reality sinks in that people voted for someone with no policies and no vision.

    Labour for the first time since 2001 are voting for someone with policies they support. You can't win marginals with turnout in labour wards of 40-50% while tory wards were at 85-90%.

    Win or lose; Theresa May will lose in 2022 or be kicked out by the tory parliamentary party. She has to the luckiest general in history; didn't have face tory members to be elected leader and had corbyn as opposition.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Telegraph:

    "If the misnamed Tory dementia tax damaged May, Labour’s infinitely more radical Garden Tax would annihilate Jeremy Corbyn – if only the middle classes were aware of it. So why, oh why, are the Tories not making more of it? Why is it not on every piece of literature?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/31/labours-brutal-garden-tax-would-confiscate-middle-englands-wealth/

    Because May is crap. This is it. This is as good the tory campaign gets. I think I'm going to slit my wrists....
  • Options
    chrisbchrisb Posts: 101
    Cyclefree said:

    Anecdote alert:

    In Hampstead and Kilburn Labour won last time with a very small majority. The Lib Dems were a long long way behind. So this is a marginal where the Tories really should be confident of winning and should be putting some effort into.

    And yet the only party that I can see regularly leafleting etc are the Lib Dems who have absolutely no chance here unless something amazing happens. The Tories sent a leaflet once at the very start. The Labour MP actually bothered to canvass and was personally impressive. Either the Tories think it in the bag or they are focusing their efforts elsewhere in the constituency or they are being useless/complacent.

    William Hill are offering evens on the Tories, which can be covered at 6/4 on Labour with Ladbrokes.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Chris said:

    One other point about the "controversial YouGov model". It bases turnout for different socio-economic groups on data from 2010 and 2015. If there were a Corbyn effect increasing turnout among groups where it is historically low, the YouGov model would miss it. (On the other hand, of course they are saying that the model correctly projected a "Leave" victory in the referendum.)

    I thought the whole reason for the difference between the polls was because YouGov used self-reported turnout, whereas ICM uses historical data?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,884
    edited June 2017
    Truly wonderful stuff from Conservative press office. Theresa May, who speaks only in soundbites, now too busy to swap them.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,942
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Now I understand why Remain didn't use Theresa May during EU Ref campaign.

    Maybe they should have smuggled her into the Leave camp? Think what she could have done to their vote share :D
    A bit unfair, she gave a good speech on why Britain should stay in the EU that TOPPING linked below. She clearly didn't sign up to the project fear aspects (although she's doing that no with the no deal stuff)
    Fair enough, but her behaviour makes me wonder. If she was a Remainer, why would she want to be a PM who has to be a "Leave" PM? Either she was never a Remainer and was just following Cabinet policy or if she was a Remainer then the lure of power was too much to resist.
    It's possible that she genuinely thought that her Home Office EU negotiations could be used as a model for Brexit and didn't appreciate the gravity of the decisions that will need to be made. It's certainly my impression that one of the main factors in pushing her to go for an early election was the realisation that she was going 'alone and naked' into the negotiations.
    Then we are heading up S**t Creek and the paddles are going overboard.

    That is, without doubt, the case. And May has blown her chances of a White Cliffs of Dover, We Shall Never Surrender Brexit by being so useless. The Tories are going to get rid of her sooner rather than later, I imagine. But who takes over who can keep them together?

    If May gets a majority over 50 it is Brexit on her terms, indeed only a hung parliament would likely see soft Brexit

    Nope - it's Brexit on the EU's terms or no deal at all. Walking away and inflicting immense damage t the UK economy and the living standards of millions of Britons is the one call May has. If she doesn't do that, the EU will decide what happens.

  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited June 2017

    Cyan said:
    If Corbyn can crack the Nats then it's on.
    SNP Corbyn proof - he could push SLAB into 2nd ahead of SCON though !
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325

    Telegraph:

    "If the misnamed Tory dementia tax damaged May, Labour’s infinitely more radical Garden Tax would annihilate Jeremy Corbyn – if only the middle classes were aware of it. So why, oh why, are the Tories not making more of it? Why is it not on every piece of literature?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/31/labours-brutal-garden-tax-would-confiscate-middle-englands-wealth/

    I think the Tories have taken knocking copy about Corbyn & Co as far as it will go. Since they are the favourites people are expecting them to have something to say on their own account.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,136
    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    One other point about the "controversial YouGov model". It bases turnout for different socio-economic groups on data from 2010 and 2015. If there were a Corbyn effect increasing turnout among groups where it is historically low, the YouGov model would miss it. (On the other hand, of course they are saying that the model correctly projected a "Leave" victory in the referendum.)

    I thought the whole reason for the difference between the polls was because YouGov used self-reported turnout, whereas ICM uses historical data?
    It seems to me we have three separate things - (1) the huge YouGov model, (2) the individual YouGov polls, (3) the other companies' independent polls.

    The description of (1) says turnout is based on historical data from 210 and 2015.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    Nige cancelling his trip to Florida. No way he's stepping on US soil for a while.
  • Options
    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    How many times do opinion polls have to be wrong before people realise they're a load of old shit?

    "If the polls called it incorrectly in the last two national elections, why should take seriously what they tell us now? Why did they indicate one thing, pretty strongly, only for the public to say something different? I believe it’s because they are not recording the opinion of the public as a whole but extrapolating the opinion of the type who like answering opinion polls - the politically engaged."

    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-problem-with-opinion-polls-polls.html?m=1

    I've been sceptical all along about the accuracy of opinion polls. But most people didn't seem very sceptical before. The doubts seemed to emerge when some of the polls started showing only small Tory leads.

    Where the opinion poll sceptics remain confident of a Tory victory, I don't know what that's based on.
    Canvassing. Possibly rumours of postal votes too, if people were being naughty.
    Anecdote from this corner of England - Tories moving resources from a marginal constituency they are defending to one that they expect to regain. No explanation given to me but one assumes that it's canvass data or private polling driving the change.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    calum said:

    Cyan said:
    If Corbyn can crack the Nats then it's on.
    SNP Corbyn proof - he could push SLAB into 2nd ahead of SCON !
    Sturgeon's possibly worse than May.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325
    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    One other point about the "controversial YouGov model". It bases turnout for different socio-economic groups on data from 2010 and 2015. If there were a Corbyn effect increasing turnout among groups where it is historically low, the YouGov model would miss it. (On the other hand, of course they are saying that the model correctly projected a "Leave" victory in the referendum.)

    I thought the whole reason for the difference between the polls was because YouGov used self-reported turnout, whereas ICM uses historical data?
    Wasn't that Survation?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,472
    If I were May i'd be training and practicing like a mother fucker for the BBC QT session on Friday night. Practice, test. Practice, test. Feedback. Practice, practice, test. Come out pumped up and fighting.

    She won't be, and won't.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    Scott_P said:
    So not only did Russia influence the US Presidential election they likely helped Leave.

    Leavers are traitors and will be marked accordingly unless they recant their support for Leave.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    edited June 2017
    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    More YouGov polls :p and we have another from Wales later
  • Options
    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    London is going to end up like Remain. Meaningless votes piled up, while the Tories take Twickenham, Richmond and Sutton.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: "Get Brexit right" is the new "Strong & Stable"
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    The Tories had better have some bloody big rabbits to pull out of the hat in this last week or we are all screwed. I keep hoping the events since the Tory manifesto launch are just a nightmare I am having and I will wake up and find TM still has a twenty point lead heading for a landslide with a strategy and a manifesto that is well thought out......then reality dawns and the cliff is approaching fast
  • Options
    oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 455

    Telegraph:

    "If the misnamed Tory dementia tax damaged May, Labour’s infinitely more radical Garden Tax would annihilate Jeremy Corbyn – if only the middle classes were aware of it. So why, oh why, are the Tories not making more of it? Why is it not on every piece of literature?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/31/labours-brutal-garden-tax-would-confiscate-middle-englands-wealth/

    Is it because gardens aren't developable land so would pay a minute amount of tax, and the whole critique is in fact bollocks driven by Tory developers and rentiers desperate to protect their cashcows and landbanks? Better get "garden tax" through to 10% of voters who are genuinely worried than make a top issue of it and get it through to 50% of voters, but with the added information that it's a lie?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    London is precisely the sort of place I'd expect to see Corbyn do very well.

    But, not that well.

    Labour were already riding high in inner London they must be making inroads in Outer London for them to be doing this well. Forget the tories GAINing seat there now. They will LOSE seats in London now. Thanks May you utter utter rubbish politician.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    matt said:

    currystar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    House prices fell again in May, Nationwide says

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40117132

    Third successive month, not happened since 2009

    In 6 months time we may be saying how clever of TMay to get a 30 seat majority now and postpone the recession-related shellacking she was due in 2020.

    An interesting quote from that article:

    However, Mr Gardener said: "The number of people in work has continued to rise at a healthy pace. Indeed, the unemployment rate fell to a 42-year low in the three months to March."

    I think the tories should be banging on more about that
    Rich people will never understand zero hour contracts and the damage they do long term to young people. This is why people vote Tory they don't understand what its like to be homeless, have no job, be on a zero contract, unable to afford the rent and don't have the bank of mum and dad to support them for a deposit or a roof over their heads to save for a deposit.

    When you listen to young people who vote tory they have one thing in common; they live with mum and dad or mum and dad are paying the vast majority of bills and providing the resources to get ahead of their competition
    "Rich people will never understand zero hour contracts and the damage they do long term to young people. "

    Sigh.

    ZHCs have a clear defined role in an economy and are popular with a certain % of the population. Those, like myself barely ten years ago, who want experience and money while working their way to something else.

    Banning them, making that a cornerstone of the campaign, is a very retrograde, narrow view of the topic.
    Have you worked on a zero hour contract?
    yes, as clearly stated in the post.


    So you support the right of employers changing your hourly rate after working those hours?
    That would surprise me. What evidence do you have of that?
    London Companies
    Sales Jobs.
    Construction jobs.
    Finance jobs.

    Jobs where your paid an agreed hourly rate or you get commission. The job is more difficult than expected and the employer simple undercuts your wage and when you appeal there is nothing you can do about it.

    There is nothing in a zero hour contract stopping employers breaking pay and conditions.
    There's nothing to stop them painting the office blue either. It's called breach of contract
  • Options
    TravelJunkieTravelJunkie Posts: 431
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    but the tories are campaigning in dagenham
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554

    Nige cancelling his trip to Florida. No way he's stepping on US soil for a while.

    But we have a very one sided extradition treaty with the States.

    Will Nigel Farage look good in orange?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724
    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    I know what you're saying, Trump/Brexit were unexpected results.
    However, the Brexit and Trump results were in one direction politically, Rthe resulkts for Rutte in Holland and Macron (and not Le Pen) were in the opposite direction. If May fails to get her landslide that feels to me like a move in the Macron direction rather than that of Trump/Brexit.
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,041

    Scott_P said:
    So not only did Russia influence the US Presidential election they likely helped Leave.

    Leavers are traitors and will be marked accordingly unless they recant their support for Leave.
    Yep - they are traitors and idiots at the same time. Great combo!!
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What did you gov predict for the local elections ?

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325

    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    I wouldn't want you next to me in the trenches!
    He might draw some of the fire
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Charles,

    "Interest of 1.5% is a very big assumption."

    They also assume the profits from the nationalised industries will pay off that interest. That assumes they will carry on making profits. But given that Labour will increase the payroll (they always do), and increasing demand in these industries is unlikely - given that they are basic services, and increasing prices will be too uncomfortable, that only leaves extra borrowing.

    Nationalised services tend to be run for the workers, not the customers - the few not the many - so although it's a nice idea, it doesn't add up economically. Getting rid of shareholders sounds good but ...

    I'm no economist, I was a scientist, so perhaps I've got this all wrong?
  • Options
    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    Really?
  • Options
    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662

    I seem to recall another election where YouGov volume of polling output was distorting what other polls were suggesting..... and also there was often the holiday polling hypothesis. Are these both redundant now?

    I keep banging on about the holiday effect (for which my apologies) - I've just had a look at the data for 1987; the May half term week then appears to coincide with a 6% narrowing of the Tory-Labour lead, which unwound the following week....
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,892
    edited June 2017
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    It would equate to shares of Lab 38%, Con 37% nationwide.

    That suggests that the Conservatives are performing significantly better outside of the capital.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    glw said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The point is - if you think Labour should have included a cost of 66 billion in their manifesto, - then you simply do not understand how government finances work.

    *sigh*

    If you think Labour should promise to nationalise things without explaining the costs and benefits of doing so — make the case, don't just follow party dogma — then you are probably a Corbyn supporter and beyond reason.
    Some things work well when left to the private sector. Cars, clothes, computers etc. They may need some regulations around safety etc. but largely can be left alone.

    Other industries struggle to get meaningful competition like railways and utilities.

    I think it's perfectly legitimate to have some of the latter group in public ownership, indeed many European countries do and it works fine for them.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-renationalisation-rail-energy-banks-europe-a7731961.html
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,283

    Nige cancelling his trip to Florida. No way he's stepping on US soil for a while.

    But we have a very one sided extradition treaty with the States.

    Will Nigel Farage look good in orange?
    Maybe that's why he was spotted at the Ecuadorian embassy the other week.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Andrew said:

    Have to say, the Tories response across the board is not one of a party that thinks it's in any danger of a hung parliament. They might be wrong/complacent of course, but their internal polling and targetting was exceptionally good in 2015.

    Yep, they were the only ones who thought it possible the Tories could win every LD seat in the South West.
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    The only consolation in this is that Corbyns support the polls are registering is all London and inner city based and in safe seats that make his vote share inefficient. I am still pinning my hopes on the Midlands saving us from Corbyn
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325

    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    I know what you're saying, Trump/Brexit were unexpected results.
    However, the Brexit and Trump results were in one direction politically, Rthe resulkts for Rutte in Holland and Macron (and not Le Pen) were in the opposite direction. If May fails to get her landslide that feels to me like a move in the Macron direction rather than that of Trump/Brexit.
    Watch to see what Wollygog does with his £500 Ladbrokes balance?
  • Options
    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    SeanT said:

    Brom said:

    London is going to end up like Remain. Meaningless votes piled up, while the Tories take Twickenham, Richmond and Sutton.

    Delusional. Look at what's happening in front of your eyes.
    I wouldn't listen to captain kneejerk, you stumble through each day like a scared toddler.

    The Tories are going to comfortably take Sutton.

    What's going on in front of my eyes is a lot of bedwetting on the internet but ordinary folk finding Corbyn toxic. People always underestimate the Conservatives but they will have the best data and will be all over vote efficiency.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Anecdote alert:

    In Hampstead and Kilburn Labour won last time with a very small majority. The Lib Dems were a long long way behind. So this is a marginal where the Tories really should be confident of winning and should be putting some effort into.

    And yet the only party that I can see regularly leafleting etc are the Lib Dems who have absolutely no chance here unless something amazing happens. The Tories sent a leaflet once at the very start. The Labour MP actually bothered to canvass and was personally impressive. Either the Tories think it in the bag or they are focusing their efforts elsewhere in the constituency or they are being useless/complacent.

    Or they don't think that Brexit will appeal to what (I assume) was a heavily Remain voting constituency.

    For comparison in Westminster North - 2 Tory leaflets, 2 Theresa May Party letters, 1 Tory canvass, 1 Labour leaflet and nothing from anyone else
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Scott_P said:
    Blimey - I wonder if Julian Assange would mind sharing a bedroom in the Ecuador embassy..?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    ‪Orange is the new purple?‬
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,283

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    but the tories are campaigning in dagenham
    If Labour poll 50 across UK, then Corbyn is PM.

    Well, yeh, I would guess so.

  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    but the tories are campaigning in dagenham
    The Tories are currently led by a paralyzed control freak. They have the reflexes and nibble footwork of an arthritic brontosaurus.
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Oh well, it IS wobbly Thursday. Sea-sickness reigns on pbc. Twas ever thus.

    All will be well. It really will.
  • Options
    wills66wills66 Posts: 103
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    One other point about the "controversial YouGov model". It bases turnout for different socio-economic groups on data from 2010 and 2015. If there were a Corbyn effect increasing turnout among groups where it is historically low, the YouGov model would miss it. (On the other hand, of course they are saying that the model correctly projected a "Leave" victory in the referendum.)

    I thought the whole reason for the difference between the polls was because YouGov used self-reported turnout, whereas ICM uses historical data?
    Wasn't that Survation?
    Both YouGov and Survation use the self-reported turnout model. ICM & ComRes use historical data .... I think.

    WillS.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,317
    This polling is turning into a horror show. Never mind landslides. Never mind gaining seats. The focus is now on whether Theresa can cling on to what Dave managed.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    Scott_P said:
    Not exactly surprising. He was hardly off RT.

    Meanwhile, the latest YouGov London poll:

    best PM: Corbyn 37%, May 34%;

    VI, compared with a month ago:
    LAB 50% (+9), CON 33% (-3)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    It would equate to shares of Lab 38%, Con 37% nationwide.

    That suggests that the Conservatives are performing significantly better outside of the capital.
    Makes Ilford North a potentially attractive bet for Labour at 13/8, in from 3/1
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    This polling is turning into a horror show. Never mind landslides. Never mind gaining seats. The focus is now on whether Theresa can cling on to what Dave managed.

    By polling you mean YouGov? :p
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    JohnO said:

    Oh well, it IS wobbly Thursday. Sea-sickness reigns on pbc. Twas ever thus.

    All will be well. It really will.

    It's fun to watch.

    Mrs May will win a majority. The only question is the size.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GIN1138 said:
    Was it? Finding it difficult to focus on the story
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Telegraph:

    "If the misnamed Tory dementia tax damaged May, Labour’s infinitely more radical Garden Tax would annihilate Jeremy Corbyn – if only the middle classes were aware of it. So why, oh why, are the Tories not making more of it? Why is it not on every piece of literature?"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/31/labours-brutal-garden-tax-would-confiscate-middle-englands-wealth/

    Is it because gardens aren't developable land so would pay a minute amount of tax, and the whole critique is in fact bollocks driven by Tory developers and rentiers desperate to protect their cashcows and landbanks? Better get "garden tax" through to 10% of voters who are genuinely worried than make a top issue of it and get it through to 50% of voters, but with the added information that it's a lie?
    Isn't the issue that a LVT is - or might be perceived to be - a wealth tax and therefore will be seen as resulting in large tax increases for everyone owning a home?

    Any sensible campaign should be putting Labour on the spot about exactly what they mean by this.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    but the tories are campaigning in dagenham
    and hillary campaigned in Arizona, the tories data could be wrong.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    ‪Orange is the new purple?‬

    The freighter Dolmatova was seen docking at Thanet this morning.
  • Options
    TravelJunkieTravelJunkie Posts: 431
    http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/three-minutes-of-nothing-herald-reporter-reflects-on-pm-encounter/story-30363961-detail/story.html

    The Herald: Two visits in six weeks to one of the country’s most marginal constituencies – is she getting worried?

    May: I’m very clear that this is a crucial election for this country.

    TH: Plymouth is feeling the effects of military cuts. Will she guarantee to protect the city from further pain?

    M: I’m very clear that Plymouth has a proud record of connection with the armed forces.

    TH: How will your Brexit plan make Plymouth better off?

    M: I think there is a better future ahead for Plymouth and for the whole of the UK.

    TH: Will you promise to sort out our transport links?

    M: I’m very clear that connectivity is hugely important for Plymouth and the south-west generally.

  • Options
    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662

    Nige cancelling his trip to Florida. No way he's stepping on US soil for a while.

    But we have a very one sided extradition treaty with the States.

    Will Nigel Farage look good in orange?
    An orange kipper? or is it all a red herring?

    My humble apologies!
  • Options
    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    This polling is turning into a horror show. Never mind landslides. Never mind gaining seats. The focus is now on whether Theresa can cling on to what Dave managed.

    RobD said:

    This polling is turning into a horror show. Never mind landslides. Never mind gaining seats. The focus is now on whether Theresa can cling on to what Dave managed.

    By polling you mean YouGov? :p
    Precisely. If we had Panelbase releasing 10 polls a week I'm sure the narrative would be rather different.
  • Options
    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    but the tories are campaigning in dagenham
    If Labour poll 50 across UK, then Corbyn is PM.

    Well, yeh, I would guess so.

    Exactly! It was hardly brilliant insight, was it?!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    But it's YouGov. If Momentum has gamed them, then you would expect this result to be seriously magnified in London where the plurality of Labour members are....

    If....

    If not, then yeah, it looks like an uphill battle for the Conservatives in the capital. Corbyn was always going to get his appeal magnified in London. And the polling would have to look like this under YouGov, what with them saying Battersea leans Labour....
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,283

    ‪Orange is the new purple?‬

    :lol:
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,472
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    It would equate to shares of Lab 38%, Con 37% nationwide.

    That suggests that the Conservatives are performing significantly better outside of the capital.
    A Corbyn victory all hinges on whether one sexy manifesto, and one huge Tory manifesto fuck-up, combined with May being a bit nervous, boring and robotic (rather Queen Elizabeth I) is enough to overturn the leadership and economy ratings, all the evidence of the electoral results over the last few months, and all our assumptions about swingback.

    Maybe. Maybe not. Personally the sense I get from my Tory friends is exasperation, but they'll still be voting Tory.

    I don't doubt Corbyn has seen huge surges with the under 30s, and may even be close to level in the 35-45 bracket, but he is still massively behind with the over 55s.

    Brexit won because it had those demographics, plus peeled off enough younger ABs and enough WWC voters to carry it over the line.

    Corbyn doesn't have that.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited June 2017

    If I were May i'd be training and practicing like a mother fucker for the BBC QT session on Friday night. Practice, test. Practice, test. Feedback. Practice, practice, test. Come out pumped up and fighting.

    She won't be, and won't.

    Train hard, fight easy. But some just aren't up to it. She has no mettle. That was clear not from her absence at the debate in Cambridge (which may have been a result of Labour's outwitting and wrongfooting of the crap planners at CCHQ), but above all from how she looked afterwards when reporters put it to her that she'd chickened out. She couldn't cope. She is on the verge of cracking up. "I'm strong" and all that...but deep down she knows she's a lump of poo. On a human level I feel sorry for her. But nobody made her go into politics. What's bad for the Tory party is good for the country.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr T,

    There you go again, whimpering like a whipped cur when the flak arrives. Just like you did shortly after Brexit won. Yes, May is shite at politics and Jezza has managed to keep his temper and do his tie up properly - but it's not the end of the world.

    We will hit an economic whirlwind when Corbyn takes over and he'll blame it totally on Brexit. I suspect they're practicing their lines already, but it will be interesting. Look on the sunny side.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325
    kjohnw said:

    The Tories had better have some bloody big rabbits to pull out of the hat in this last week or we are all screwed. I keep hoping the events since the Tory manifesto launch are just a nightmare I am having and I will wake up and find TM still has a twenty point lead heading for a landslide with a strategy and a manifesto that is well thought out......then reality dawns and the cliff is approaching fast

    LOL Have they even got a hat?
  • Options
    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    JohnO said:

    Oh well, it IS wobbly Thursday. Sea-sickness reigns on pbc. Twas ever thus.

    All will be well. It really will.

    Thanks John; now get back to stuffing those ballot boxes!!!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,892
    Cyan said:

    Scott_P said:
    Not exactly surprising. He was hardly off RT.

    Meanwhile, the latest YouGov London poll:

    best PM: Corbyn 37%, May 34%;

    VI, compared with a month ago:
    LAB 50% (+9), CON 33% (-3)
    The actual movement in votes over that month is in line with Yougov generally. It's just that London is now a heavily Labour city. If you look at the graphic, the relative standing of the parties hasn't changed since the weekend of the dementia tax row.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    SeanT said:

    Freggles said:
    This feels terrible. This feels like YouGov is right, and the Tories are gonna lose seats.

    This feels like Trump, this feels like Brexit.

    Labour are now 5/1 to have most seats....

    Good heavens, a pre-voting SeanT panic and bedwetting session, I am sure we have never had one of those before.... well aside from BrExit, and GE2015, GE2010.... ;)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/george_osborne/status/870236498595127298

    As an aside, every time Osborne Tweets one of these cartoons, despite the handle of the cartoonist being included, a number of people complain to Osborne, and the cartoonist replies "I drew it, not him". Every time.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,283
    Scott_P said:
    Maybe she has had enough and wants to be out walking the hills on 9th June instead of assembling a new Cabinet.

    This is beyond bonkers to raise all grammar school dreaming that at this stage.

    She should be hammering Labour over the economy and tax from dawn til dusk.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,884
    OMG

    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 12m12 minutes ago
    More
    London Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 50% (+9)
    CON: 33% (-3)
    LDEM: 11% (-3)
    UKIP: 3% (-3)
    GRN: 2 (-1)

    (via @YouGov / 26 - 31 May)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,047
    nunu said:
    The Justin tip of a Lab gain in Needs NW looks like a good one.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,892

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    NCPoliticsUK: YouGov/QMUL (London Westminster):

    CON 33 (-3)
    LAB 50 (+9)
    LD 11 (-3)
    UKIP 3 (-3)
    GRN 2 (-1)

    26th-31st May
    N~1,000
    #GE2017

    If that repeats across the UK it's Prime Minister Corbyn.
    It would equate to shares of Lab 38%, Con 37% nationwide.

    That suggests that the Conservatives are performing significantly better outside of the capital.
    A Corbyn victory all hinges on whether one sexy manifesto, and one huge Tory manifesto fuck-up, combined with May being a bit nervous, boring and robotic (rather Queen Elizabeth I) is enough to overturn the leadership and economy ratings, all the evidence of the electoral results over the last few months, and all our assumptions about swingback.

    Maybe. Maybe not. Personally the sense I get from my Tory friends is exasperation, but they'll still be voting Tory.

    I don't doubt Corbyn has seen huge surges with the under 30s, and may even be close to level in the 35-45 bracket, but he is still massively behind with the over 55s.

    Brexit won because it had those demographics, plus peeled off enough younger ABs and enough WWC voters to carry it over the line.

    Corbyn doesn't have that.
    This poll simply demonstrates that London's politics have become very different to those of the rest of the country.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @hansmollman: "Everytime a child says 'I don't believe in fairies' there is a a little fairy somewhere that falls down dead." https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/870248643869200384
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,317
    SeanT said:

    Brom said:

    SeanT said:

    Brom said:

    London is going to end up like Remain. Meaningless votes piled up, while the Tories take Twickenham, Richmond and Sutton.

    Delusional. Look at what's happening in front of your eyes.
    I wouldn't listen to captain kneejerk, you stumble through each day like a scared toddler.

    The Tories are going to comfortably take Sutton.

    What's going on in front of my eyes is a lot of bedwetting on the internet but ordinary folk finding Corbyn toxic. People always underestimate the Conservatives but they will have the best data and will be all over vote efficiency.
    Look at that Sky voxpop from Bridgend, Wales. People DON'T find Corbyn toxic. They find him surprisingly human and empathetic (I disagree, but these are the reports); they also like free stuff. Also, they've REALLY gone off Theresa, and given that "Theresa is better than Jeremy" was the essence of the Tory campaign, that ain't good.

    You may, however, be right about the Tory data and voter efficiency; I have no idea.
    Yes. This campaign was supposed to cement Jezza's image as an IRA volunteer, jihadist and social miscreant; instead he's come across as an affable old grandad. Even if the Tories just scrape it, Labour will be perfectly placed for 'one last heave' in 2022. The Tories have put themselves on death row.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    CD13 said:

    Mr Charles,

    "Interest of 1.5% is a very big assumption."

    They also assume the profits from the nationalised industries will pay off that interest. That assumes they will carry on making profits. But given that Labour will increase the payroll (they always do), and increasing demand in these industries is unlikely - given that they are basic services, and increasing prices will be too uncomfortable, that only leaves extra borrowing.

    Nationalised services tend to be run for the workers, not the customers - the few not the many - so although it's a nice idea, it doesn't add up economically. Getting rid of shareholders sounds good but ...

    I'm no economist, I was a scientist, so perhaps I've got this all wrong?

    Nope. But I was eating breakfast and didn't fancy typing that much
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,965
    edited June 2017
    Labour are at 5-2 to hold Enfield North.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Scott_P said:
    Maybe she has had enough and wants to be out walking the hills on 9th June instead of assembling a new Cabinet.

    This is beyond bonkers to raise all grammar school dreaming that at this stage.

    She should be hammering Labour over the economy and tax from dawn til dusk.
    This has to be it. She doesn't want to be PM any more. It is the only explanation. Why campaign on Grammar schools when they poll badly? Why? Why?

    Please someone tell me what the hell is going on?
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/three-minutes-of-nothing-herald-reporter-reflects-on-pm-encounter/story-30363961-detail/story.html

    The Herald: Two visits in six weeks to one of the country’s most marginal constituencies – is she getting worried?

    May: I’m very clear that this is a crucial election for this country.

    TH: Plymouth is feeling the effects of military cuts. Will she guarantee to protect the city from further pain?

    M: I’m very clear that Plymouth has a proud record of connection with the armed forces.

    TH: How will your Brexit plan make Plymouth better off?

    M: I think there is a better future ahead for Plymouth and for the whole of the UK.

    TH: Will you promise to sort out our transport links?

    M: I’m very clear that connectivity is hugely important for Plymouth and the south-west generally.

    Only connect! That was the whole of her sermon.
  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Who writes May's speeches? The content is decent enough to begin with but then she repeats herself a number of times at the end.
This discussion has been closed.