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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,263

    Swindon South is a toss-up according to YouGov.

    Con majority of 5,785 last time. With nearly 6,000 UKIP votes.

    Hmmmmmm.......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    BTW - 1,100 comments. Time for a new thread?

    Poor Rob is getting tired after three hours of clicking refresh in the other window?
    Tried to bribe TSE into telling me when to expect it, but to no avail.
    If there's a story from the debates, any new thread won't get much of an airing now. Better leave it to this evening.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    IanB2 said:

    One Thousand one hundred and twentieth! Like UKIP.

    Scottish UKIP, more like.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    isam said:

    Sun story about Diane Abbott calling Brits racist in 1988. Why go back so far? She says it almost every week

    https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/869863539380498434

    How ridiculous to suggest anyone in Britain is racist! Typical kind of thing blacks come out with, of course ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,263

    bobajobPB said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    It's coming out tomorrow.
    The sheep is coming out?
    In the 21st century a sheep in Wales should be able to be strong and confident in its own identity. And that identity is 40% Conservative, 35% Labour, 12% Plaid.
    Anda teeny-weeny bit ashamed of its 3% UKIP?
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Scott_P said:
    Whereas voting for Corbyn is like autoerotic asphyxiation.

    Satsuma, Russell?
    You know when you've been tangoed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/8/newsid_2538000/2538165.stm

    There was something very, very strange about that death. Without going Full Tinfoil, that he is still ridiculed so many years on was the point somebody wanted to make....
    There have been a fair few mysterious deaths that can be filed under sexgamegonewrong and a lot of them have one key thing in common.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,373
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    BTW - 1,100 comments. Time for a new thread?

    Poor Rob is getting tired after three hours of clicking refresh in the other window?
    Tried to bribe TSE into telling me when to expect it, but to no avail.
    No new thread in drafts...
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736
    PaulM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    It cannot be!

    According to the PB commentariat, May is a total muppet, who is losing millions of votes by the hour as the country warms to Mr. Corbyn.
    It's a miracle Labour aren't already 10 points ahead of the Tories, given how dreadful May is.....
    To get above a certain level Conservatives and UKIP voters from 2010 and 2015 have to directly switch to Labour, rather than Labour simply cleaning up all the Left-wing votes, all in response to Theresa seeming a bit flaky over the manifesto and its aftermath.

    Possible, but I think not. Corbyn is following a noisy 35% strategy without realising it.
    I've always thought much of the UKIP vote in the North wouldn't vote Tory if it came to it. That said, there comes a level of Tory support where however the non Tory vote is split doesn't make that much difference.

    Looking at last time when the Tories nationally (GB) were just under 38%, the seat stratification was as follows

    Tory vote over 50% 174 seats Won all
    Tory vote 45%-50% 78 seats Won all
    Tory vote 40%-45% 73 seats Won 61 Lost 12
    Tory vote 35%-40% 34 seats Won 16
    Tory vote 30-35% 62 seats Won 2 (Gower and Portsmouth)
    Tory vote below 30% 231 seats Won 0

    The highest Tory vote share that lost was 44% in Wirral West.
    The highest Tory vote share anywhere was 65%.

    If the Tory vote overall is up at least 5% on last time, then hard to see how they could lose their majority, regardless of how the opposition is split. If the Tories get to 45% in a constituency they'll win it, and there would seem to be 325 seats where that is fairly straightforward, unless there are mad regional swings going on.
    Thanks also from me.

    Extremely interesting and I'm surprised not to have seen any similar analysis up to now.

    It's interesting how few seats Con had in the 35% to 40% range last time.

    Con got 40% or more in 325 seats - precisely half the total number of seats in the UK. If Con vote share is up 5% that provides a very firm foundation for getting a majority.

    But the lack of seats in the 35% to 40% range suggests it could be hard to get more than a small majority - albeit that 40% wins far more often than not.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2017
    Chris said:

    isam said:

    Sun story about Diane Abbott calling Brits racist in 1988. Why go back so far? She says it almost every week

    https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/869863539380498434

    How ridiculous to suggest anyone in Britain is racist! Typical kind of thing blacks come out with, of course ...
    Not "anyone", the country as a whole is "fundamentally racist"

    But West Indian mums love their kids more
  • bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    bobajobPB said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    It's coming out tomorrow.
    The sheep is coming out?
    In the 21st century a sheep in Wales should be able to be strong and confident in its own identity. And that identity is 40% Conservative, 35% Labour, 12% Plaid.
    An uncharacteristically woolly answer from you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,910

    Scott_P said:
    Whereas voting for Corbyn is like autoerotic asphyxiation.

    Satsuma, Russell?
    You know when you've been tangoed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/8/newsid_2538000/2538165.stm

    There was something very, very strange about that death. Without going Full Tinfoil, that he is still ridiculed so many years on was the point somebody wanted to make....
    There have been a fair few mysterious deaths that can be filed under sexgamegonewrong and a lot of them have one key thing in common.
    Jeremy Corbyn?
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    For example,

    ". When his body was discovered, he was dressed in a green protective suit for use in nuclear, biological or chemical warfare, green overalls, a black plastic mackintosh and thick rubber gloves. His face was covered by a gas mask and he was also wearing a sou'wester. His body was suspended from two ropes, attached to shackles fastened to a piece of wood across the open loft hatch, and was surrounded by pictures of men and mainly black women in bondage. Consultant pathologist Dr Yasai Sivathondan said he died from asphyxia due to hanging "in keeping with a form of sexual strangulation"."

    right.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    It's coming out tomorrow.
    The sheep is coming out?
    In the 21st century a sheep in Wales should be able to be strong and confident in its own identity. And that identity is 40% Conservative, 35% Labour, 12% Plaid.
    An uncharacteristically woolly answer from you.
    Just thank your lucky stars I avoided the "baa-curious" joke I nearly made.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289
    bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    It's coming out tomorrow.
    The sheep is coming out?
    In the 21st century a sheep in Wales should be able to be strong and confident in its own identity. And that identity is 40% Conservative, 35% Labour, 12% Plaid.
    An uncharacteristically woolly answer from you.
    Herding.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    If we're discussing sheep, we need to get Mr. Jason's definitive view on fleeces.
  • ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    Russell Brand: '(Corbyn) ... a politician who is committed to serving the people of Britain.'

    Orly?

    He's forgotten, then, that this 'politician' is a committed friend of many murderers of the people of Britain. Warrington hasn't forgotten. Hendon hasn't forgotten. To name just a few. Please God some others remember before D-Day (sic).
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,410
    edited May 2017
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BarristerSecret: She's right. It would take a special kind of ninny to think this is a sensible time to distract from Brexit with a… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869943660422590464

    I wonder if we will get an extension on Article 50. It requires unanimity from the EU27, but it's clear we are not going to be anywhere near ready by March 2019 and it probably is in the EU's interest to delay to ensure a more orderly disengagement. They can keep us on a short leash and probably extract lots of cash. If not win/win then no_lose/no_lose.
    No, because under Article 50 that'd require the consent of the UK as well.
    Obviously it's not in our interests to crash out of the EU unprepared. Two years is an unrealistically short period of time to sort things out even if we had a government that was focused on the task in hand and had been level with the British people about what Brexit involves.
    There'll be an initial 'talks about talks' agreement with some transitional arrangements covered off and then a longer negotiation, beyond the two years. Why do you think Mrs May suddenly realised she needed more time?
    I'm not convinced even now the Brexit process has been properly thought through, so she probably doesn't realise it. It's not just the Article 50 deal, although that's the most important one. We have a vast array of international arrangements and obligations through the EU that will lapse on our exit. Those are up to us to sort out and won't be done through the Article 50 process. We need time. Above all we need time to get people on board for the massive compromises that entail from Brexit.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,736
    edited May 2017
    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the YouGov UK model.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,910
    The YouGov model is clearly ridiculous. Look at their numbers for Vauxhall. They have the LibDems LOSING.

    Utterly absurd.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Who knows, it's yougov.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    isam said:

    Chris said:

    isam said:

    Sun story about Diane Abbott calling Brits racist in 1988. Why go back so far? She says it almost every week

    https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/869863539380498434

    How ridiculous to suggest anyone in Britain is racist! Typical kind of thing blacks come out with, of course ...
    Not "anyone", the country as a whole is "fundamentally racist"

    But West Indian mums love their kids more
    Good Lord! This is the last place I expected people to jump to her defence.
  • JonWCJonWC Posts: 288
    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Manish Singh‏ @Manish_05Singh 7m7 minutes ago

    UK poll industry in CRISIS

    Tory leads:

    YouGov: 3pt
    Survation: 6pt
    Kantar: 10pt
    FT poll of polls: 9pt
    ICM: 12pt
    ComRes: 12pt
    Panelbase: 15pt"

    Do we have comparable figure for the May/Corbyn approval ratings, and is there as much variance between pollsters ?
    I don't have them, sorry.
  • bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042

    bobajobPB said:

    bobajobPB said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    It's coming out tomorrow.
    The sheep is coming out?
    In the 21st century a sheep in Wales should be able to be strong and confident in its own identity. And that identity is 40% Conservative, 35% Labour, 12% Plaid.
    An uncharacteristically woolly answer from you.
    Just thank your lucky stars I avoided the "baa-curious" joke I nearly made.
    Knit wit.
  • ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    Apols if already posted, but Jim Messina is rubbishing YouGov for 'another stupid poll' and has publicly challenged YouGov’s general manger Ben Leet to a wager.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/battle-pollsters-jim-messina-blasts-yougov-another-stupid-poll/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,646
    Someone at YouGov will be getting a massive payrise if this comes off.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289

    Someone at YouGov will be getting a massive payrise if this comes off.

    No, they should start paying panellists 60p a time. For the many...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,373
    rcs1000 said:

    The YouGov model is clearly ridiculous. Look at their numbers for Vauxhall. They have the LibDems LOSING.

    Utterly absurd.

    I'll accept an early payment discount offer from you re our Vauxhall bet

    Instead of paying me £500 on June 9th, I'll take £300 now.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145

    Someone at YouGov will be getting a massive payrise if this comes off.

    Someone from YouGov will be getting a massive bonus from CCHQ if it doesn't.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,373
    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Pulpstar said:

    What's happened to this Wales poll? Has a sheep eaten it?

    Probably better off asking a sheep what will happen in Wales after the ridiculous swings in the polling.
    I've just asked her and my wife doesn't even know there's an election on.

    She told me to get offline, grab the velcro gloves and wellies and join her in the bedroom.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    For example,

    ". When his body was discovered, he was dressed in a green protective suit for use in nuclear, biological or chemical warfare, green overalls, a black plastic mackintosh and thick rubber gloves. His face was covered by a gas mask and he was also wearing a sou'wester. His body was suspended from two ropes, attached to shackles fastened to a piece of wood across the open loft hatch, and was surrounded by pictures of men and mainly black women in bondage. Consultant pathologist Dr Yasai Sivathondan said he died from asphyxia due to hanging "in keeping with a form of sexual strangulation"."

    right.

    Maybe I am odd, but it is the sou'wester that strikes me as peculiar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,161
    JonWC said:

    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
    I'm on the last night of a very enjoyable break in Sidmouth. If the number of posters were a reliable guide, she's a shoe-in. As it happens, they're not.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @daraobriain: Ah, she can't do the debate because she's sitting in having a big think about Brexit. This is excruciating to watch. https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/869908350019829760
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    Scott_P said:

    @daraobriain: Ah, she can't do the debate because she's sitting in having a big think about Brexit. This is excruciating to watch. twitter.com/bbcnews/status/869908350019829760

    A very poor line. Should have just said that they had agreed to do the two head-to-heads, and that they had taken Corbyn at his word that he would abstain from the 7-ways.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    “Under-30s love Corbyn but they don’t care enough to get off their lazy arses to vote for him!
    A Tory candidate with over ten years Commons experience
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:

    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
    I'm on the last night of a very enjoyable break in Sidmouth. If the number of posters were a reliable guide, she's a shoe-in. As it happens, they're not.
    It's 'shoo in', nothing to do with footwear ;-)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Last night as soon as I saw the study I knew it was nonsense.

    Kensington only 'leaning' Conservative. LMAO.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:

    @daraobriain: Ah, she can't do the debate because she's sitting in having a big think about Brexit. This is excruciating to watch. https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/869908350019829760

    I thought the line earlier was that she was going to be talking to real voters.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,651

    Last night as soon as I saw the study I knew it was nonsense.

    Kensington only 'leaning' Conservative. LMAO.

    That might not be a million miles off. What is wrong is High Peak toss up.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The idea behind the YouGov model is quite novel, Bur even similar constituencies do not behave similarly.

    It can be improved in future elections.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    surbiton said:

    The idea behind the YouGov model is quite novel, Bur even similar constituencies do not behave similarly.

    It can be improved in future elections.

    Perhaps by changing the seed in their random number generator?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    ‘Theresa May Has Totally F*cked It Up’ Tory Candidate Lets Rip At Dire Election Campaign
    ‘We deserve to lose,’ says another Tory candidate
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145

    ‘Theresa May Has Totally F*cked It Up’ Tory Candidate Lets Rip At Dire Election Campaign
    ‘We deserve to lose,’ says another Tory candidate

    Would be good of you to link to the articles you are quoting. Although I think we've seen that one before.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,646
    image

    If you're explaining, you're losing?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I like the idea of what YouGov have tried to do. I'm yet to be convinced by the execution of it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,761
    Pulpstar said:

    http://www.electionforecast.co.uk/ MILES more realistic than Yougov I reckon. Though Hanretty is not ultraconfident on Wales.

    Compare electionforecast with YouGov for Richmond Park, Twickenham, and Kingston.

    electionforecast has Tory probability of winning at 100%, 93% and 98% respectively.

    YouGov has Tossup, likely LibDem and leans LibDem respectively which is line with the bookies.

    I wouldn't say that electionforecast is MILES more realistic than YouGov.

    Looking at several dozen random examples in YouGov I think their estimated (wide) spreads cover the likely outcome very well unlike election forecast which is too black and white (and often plain wrong).



  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    edited May 2017
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @daraobriain: Ah, she can't do the debate because she's sitting in having a big think about Brexit. This is excruciating to watch. https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/869908350019829760

    I thought the line earlier was that she was going to be talking to real voters.
    Let's be honest. She's similar in style to Gordon Brown but definitely his intellectual and political inferior. The only reason Theresa May deserves to be Prime Minister is that she isn't Jeremy Corbyn.

    Fucking hell, she has been living off the phrase 'Brexit means Brexit' for the past 9 months.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited May 2017
    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:

    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
    I'm on the last night of a very enjoyable break in Sidmouth. If the number of posters were a reliable guide, she's a shoe-in. As it happens, they're not.
    Twitter and PB, whilst brilliant for all manner of political opinions, ideas and memes, are not a bit representative of ordinary Britain.

    On PB, for instance, where most posters know 1000 x as much about politics as the ordinary voter, hardly anybody thought Cameron would win a majority in 2015 (notable exceptions, ie: JackW) and only a tiny handful believed Brexit would happen (Southam and Casino Royale were just about the only two who believed it all along...).

    In the real world, I doubt many are noticing how shite May is or how many IRA balaclavas Corbyn reputedly has. I do suspect that most minds were made up pre the campaign, and although the polls have tightened somewhat, the Tories are still on for a much bigger majority.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926

    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
    Prof Scully has sadi we may be in for an hisotric night after all - Labour leading by a big margin wont make it an historic night but a boring one
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There's been a lot of discussion about their seat projections on here.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,373
    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    Whilst YouGov produced this analysis, they also produced polls with the Tories 6% ahead.

    All the supplementaries point to a comfortable Tory win.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,161
    On the subject of opinion polls, can we please all remember they are in effect experimental as all existing models had been proven useless in 2015. Some of them may be right, it is not out of the question that all of them are again totally wrong (obviously they cannot all be right).

    However, this feels more like 2005 when Blair leaked his private polling claiming it showed Labour and the Tories neck and neck because he thought apathy would cost him maybe a couple of dozen seats, than 1979 when several polls put Callaghan ahead, or even 1983 when the gap appeared to close a few times.

    It is boring, unwanted election between a dull candidate and a certifiable lunatic with a plausible manner. In the absence of plausible alternatives it's not surprising he's hoovering up the idiot vote. That's why the vote share may be OK for Labour. But he's not Donald Trump and he's not going to win. Apart from anything else, most of his own policies are less effective and relevant than his opponents'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,688
    edited May 2017
    Jeremy Corbyn's armed special branch police protection officers tackle 2 moped robbers while he was eating in a restaurant in East London
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/3676413/jeremy-corbyn-armed-cops-pull-guns-on-moped-robbers/amp/
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited May 2017

    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.

    I never fancied Gove as a leader. He's a top quality ideas man, way too gawky for popularity and the Boris take-down (although on balance, the right thing to do) wrecked any leadership hopes he had. I do think he's a fab Number 2 though. Radical, original, brave and, by all accounts, fairly collegiate.

    He is also very articulate and has a fantastic, rich vocabulary. One thing I've noticed about May is how stunted her vocabulary is. She repeats herself terribly. I actually feel a bit sorry for her. Her lack of ease with words the way a Cameron or Blair could do it, must encourage her to resort to soundbites and repetition.

    I think it was Churchill who coined the 'glare of the hot probing eye'. During campaigns politicians have an enormous amount of cameras and lights thrust in front of them. Some wilt, some flourish.

    May, sadly for her, has wilted.

    But her leadership isn't unrecoverable. If she wins a big majority negatives will be swiftly swept under the carpet.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,292
    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There are two things: the poll and the model. I'm sceptical about the poll but I'm glad they're putting out there what they think the score is at the moment. I haven't looked at the model, but I'm not backing seats off the back of their predictions (see previous posts on which seats look plain wrong).
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,541
    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Corbyn's armed special branch police protection officers tackle 2 moped robbers while he was eating in a restaurant in East London
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/3676413/jeremy-corbyn-armed-cops-pull-guns-on-moped-robbers/amp/

    Special branch tackling people with mopeds ?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.

    Sadly I think you are correct,

    Intellectually Gove has the capacity to manage the government, Brexit included, more successfully than any other 'top' Politian in any of the party's at the moment, sadly he is not a leader especially in today world of memes.

    perhaps my opinion of Gove, is comparable to how Ed Milibands supporters looked at him?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    marke09 said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
    Prof Scully has sadi we may be in for an hisotric night after all - Labour leading by a big margin wont make it an historic night but a boring one
    Scully also ramped the poll which had Labour 10 points clear in a similar way.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    edited May 2017

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    Whilst YouGov produced this analysis, they also produced polls with the Tories 6% ahead.

    All the supplementaries point to a comfortable Tory win.
    That's only a 2 point difference in the Tory lead, i.e. a 1 point different in each party's percentage. Surely that's a tiny difference. But anyway, what is there to indicate 6% is right and 4% is wrong?

    Maybe your argument about supplementaries is right, but isn't it risky discounting direct evidence on the basis of indirect evidence?
  • bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    May looks scared, and a bit ill, on the news. She looks like she is losing. Weird.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145

    marke09 said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
    Prof Scully has sadi we may be in for an hisotric night after all - Labour leading by a big margin wont make it an historic night but a boring one
    Scully also ramped the poll which had Labour 10 points clear in a similar way.
    I don't think he said it was historic though.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,761
    Pulpstar said:

    Last night as soon as I saw the study I knew it was nonsense.

    Kensington only 'leaning' Conservative. LMAO.

    That might not be a million miles off. What is wrong is High Peak toss up.
    I've just put £10 on Labour winning High Peak at 12/1. It may not be a toss up but YouGov is picking up some feature that punters are missing.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    BigRich said:

    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.

    Sadly I think you are correct,

    Intellectually Gove has the capacity to manage the government, Brexit included, more successfully than any other 'top' Politian in any of the party's at the moment, sadly he is not a leader especially in today world of memes.

    perhaps my opinion of Gove, is comparable to how Ed Milibands supporters looked at him?
    If the Tories win i would give him a top brief straight away, he would be a good person to reform the NHS or the home office.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,292

    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Corbyn's armed special branch police protection officers tackle 2 moped robbers while he was eating in a restaurant in East London
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/3676413/jeremy-corbyn-armed-cops-pull-guns-on-moped-robbers/amp/

    Special branch tackling people with mopeds ?
    Lol! Moped crime is becoming quite a big thing, and it sounds like these two picked the wrong time and place to do someone over!
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    edited May 2017
    Obviously a Presidential election is very different from a parliamentary election, but is that the only reason French pollsters were so good? Or were they doing something very different, like expensive and massive face-to-face polls?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    RobD said:

    marke09 said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
    Prof Scully has sadi we may be in for an hisotric night after all - Labour leading by a big margin wont make it an historic night but a boring one
    Scully also ramped the poll which had Labour 10 points clear in a similar way.
    I don't think he said it was historic though.
    Could mean anything, Plaid wiped out for example.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,881
    BigRich said:

    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.

    Sadly I think you are correct,

    Intellectually Gove has the capacity to manage the government, Brexit included, more successfully than any other 'top' Politian in any of the party's at the moment, sadly he is not a leader especially in today world of memes.
    Your opinion of Gove's intellect seems strangely congruent with his opinion of himself.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145

    RobD said:

    marke09 said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the YouGov Wales poll tomorrow can't be good for Con.

    Because if it is good for Con it is going to complete contradict the UK YouGov model.

    Does that worry pollsters?

    Several utterly contradictory polls are published -- and then after the event, the best one can be picked to show how close you were.
    Prof Scully has sadi we may be in for an hisotric night after all - Labour leading by a big margin wont make it an historic night but a boring one
    Scully also ramped the poll which had Labour 10 points clear in a similar way.
    I don't think he said it was historic though.
    Could mean anything, Plaid wiped out for example.
    Yep, or the Lib Dems. Or the Tories?!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Maybe it's a historic Plaid Cymru surge.











    Just kidding.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There's been a lot of discussion about their seat projections on here.
    But has any of it been based on anything more substantial than a gut feeling that a particular seat isn't likely to do what the model indicates?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,651
    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    The model is far too favourable to Labour:

    Labour within 4% in Warwick & Leamington
    Pudsey (Toss up)
    High Peak (Toss up)
    Stevenage Lab 2% behind
    Hastings Lab 3% ahead
    Thurrock Lab 1% behind

    Labour will be further behind on all of those.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    glw said:

    Obviously a Presidential election is very different from a parliamentary election, but is that the only reason French pollsters were so good? Or were they doing something very different, like expensive and massive face-to-face polls?

    I asked this earlier too. Got no reply......
  • JonWCJonWC Posts: 288
    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:

    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
    I'm on the last night of a very enjoyable break in Sidmouth. If the number of posters were a reliable guide, she's a shoe-in. As it happens, they're not.
    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:

    Pong said:
    Alas I suspect the residents of Sidmouth and Budleigh Salterton (so famous as a retirement destination it was once mentioned on Blackadder I think) are probably not on Twitter.
    I'm on the last night of a very enjoyable break in Sidmouth. If the number of posters were a reliable guide, she's a shoe-in. As it happens, they're not.
    It is a great part of the world.. the only mainland natural World Heritage site and not heaving with tourists.

    Back on the subject I also see the Claire is last on the ballot behind two other random independents which doesn't help matters, nor does the presence of LibDem and Labour candidates. I think both were absent when she smashed the Tories in the locals a few weeks ago.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    The model is far too favourable to Labour:

    Labour within 4% in Warwick & Leamington
    Pudsey (Toss up)
    High Peak (Toss up)
    Stevenage Lab 2% behind
    Hastings Lab 3% ahead
    Thurrock Lab 1% behind

    Labour will be further behind on all of those.
    Based on what, though?
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    BigRich said:

    Gove whilst being intellectually up to the job of Prime Minister doesn't have the necessary presence.

    By that I mean he makes John Major look like a Spartan.

    The meme of him weirdly clapping that came out during the leadership election (before he wielded the knife on Boris) drew howls of derisory laughter from my usually apolitical work colleagues. He would have been destroyed within a month.

    Sadly I think you are correct,

    Intellectually Gove has the capacity to manage the government, Brexit included, more successfully than any other 'top' Politian in any of the party's at the moment, sadly he is not a leader especially in today world of memes.
    Your opinion of Gove's intellect seems strangely congruent with his opinion of himself.
    It was congruent with defeating the massed ranks of the establishment over Brexit.

    You might not like him. But don't allow your prejudices to blind you to a cunningly capable and clever individual.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There's been a lot of discussion about their seat projections on here.
    But has any of it been based on anything more substantial than a gut feeling that a particular seat isn't likely to do what the model indicates?
    Someone noted earlier it had Kensington as "lean Conservative,".
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chris said:

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesmack/status/869934951831134208

    A 42% margin?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,688
    glw said:

    Obviously a Presidential election is very different from a parliamentary election, but is that the only reason French pollsters were so good? Or were they doing something very different, like expensive and massive face-to-face polls?

    Their exit polls were spot on, their final polls not quite so much
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,761
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    The model is far too favourable to Labour:

    Labour within 4% in Warwick & Leamington
    Pudsey (Toss up)
    High Peak (Toss up)
    Stevenage Lab 2% behind
    Hastings Lab 3% ahead
    Thurrock Lab 1% behind

    Labour will be further behind on all of those.
    Is that based on your own switching matrix model?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Amusingly had 2 flyers today at home (live in Kingston & Surbiton) from LibDem and Labour claiming a vote for the other is wasted as only they can beat the Tories. Both had bar charts, with the Labour one being based on the 1st prefs in the 2016 Mayoral election!

    No contact from canvassers, which is a bit odd
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited May 2017

    I like the idea of what YouGov have tried to do. I'm yet to be convinced by the execution of it.

    Me too.

    This has great potential.

    Having a massive polling panel with detailed demographic / socioeconomic info on your panel - then figuring out which voters are changing their minds (and where they live) is the future of FPTP election polling.

    By 2027, they'll be predicting the result to within a dozen or so seats.

    The data will be used by campaigns to increasingly focus their campaign effort on smaller and smaller numbers of crucial swing voters they've personally identified.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    Because the predictions of the model include too much uncertainty?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,761
    edited May 2017
    HaroldO said:

    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There's been a lot of discussion about their seat projections on here.
    But has any of it been based on anything more substantial than a gut feeling that a particular seat isn't likely to do what the model indicates?
    Someone noted earlier it had Kensington as "lean Conservative,".
    LibDems 14/1 against in Kensington. Some money is going on the LibDems.

    According to Oddschecker, 38% of bets are on the LibDems.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,161
    Fenster said:

    I never fancied Gove as a leader. He's a top quality ideas man, way too gawky for popularity and the Boris take-down (although on balance, the right thing to do) wrecked any leadership hopes he had. I do think he's a fab Number 2 though. Radical, original, brave and, by all accounts, fairly collegiate.

    You have that backwards. People with imagination and drive are the best leaders - as long as they have talented administrators under them to implement those ideas.

    Gove is indeed a genius at coming up with bold and radical ideas that look excellent on paper, but he couldn't administer a local charity. Therefore he would make a dreadful number two.

    Incidentally your last sentence is also incorrect- he's very much a loner and likes to be on the minority side picking a fight. It's one reason why his school reforms went so horribly wrong. If he'd worked with teachers they could have been very effective rather than utterly disastrous. That probably rules him out as PM anyway. And even Liam Fox has allegedly expressed reservations about his foreign policy stance!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Anyway, must be off. Eight days to go, and polls are all over the place. It'll be an interesting night.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    There's been a lot of discussion about their seat projections on here.
    But has any of it been based on anything more substantial than a gut feeling that a particular seat isn't likely to do what the model indicates?

    The criticism of the YouGov model is the fact that it is a 'model'.

    Nuf said.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,145
    New thread!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,651
    Chris said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Chris said:

    Ben Page has just liked the below tweet of mine. Pollsters don't normally diss their rivals in public like this

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/869952276198195200

    Is there any criticism of the poll that rises above the level of "spent the day laughing at yet another stupid poll by YouGov" and so on?

    It would be interesting to know why people are so convinced the model is wrong, and where they think the errors have been made.
    The model is far too favourable to Labour:

    Labour within 4% in Warwick & Leamington
    Pudsey (Toss up)
    High Peak (Toss up)
    Stevenage Lab 2% behind
    Hastings Lab 3% ahead
    Thurrock Lab 1% behind

    Labour will be further behind on all of those.
    Based on what, though?
    Everyone elses models including my own. I make Hastings 299 in the ordered list of Con/Lab majorities, and I'll eat my hat if Pudsey is a toss up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,161
    Fenster said:

    I never fancied Gove as a leader. He's a top quality ideas man, way too gawky for popularity and the Boris take-down (although on balance, the right thing to do) wrecked any leadership hopes he had. I do think he's a fab Number 2 though. Radical, original, brave and, by all accounts, fairly collegiate.

    You have that backwards. People with imagination and drive are the best leaders - as long as they have talented administrators under them to implement those ideas.

    Gove is indeed a genius at coming up with bold and radical ideas that look excellent on paper, but he couldn't administer a local charity. Therefore he would make a dreadful number two.

    Incidentally your last sentence is also incorrect - he's very much a loner and likes to be on the minority side picking a fight. That's why he was pro-Brexit even though his personal position appears much more nuanced. It's also the reason why his school reforms went so horribly wrong. If he'd worked with teachers they could have been very effective rather than utterly disastrous. That probably rules him out as PM anyway. And even Liam Fox has allegedly expressed reservations about his foreign policy stance!
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    Pong said:

    I like the idea of what YouGov have tried to do. I'm yet to be convinced by the execution of it.

    Me too.

    This has great potential.

    Having a massive polling panel with detailed demographic / socioeconomic info on your panel - then figuring out which voters are changing their minds (and where they live) is the future of FPTP election polling.

    By 2027, they'll be predicting the result to within a dozen or so seats.
    Only with the proviso that you verify the personal data you have about your panel.
This discussion has been closed.