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  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    The letter recommending Comey's firing from Rosenstein is spectacular.

    Wow. You weren't kidding. Thank you @JosiasJessop for the link.

    That being said:

    (1) I think Comey was in an impossible situation where there was no 'good' choice;

    (2) No matter what he had or had not done, and separately from the question of whether the actual decision was right, Trump's method of firing him - by a note through a third party - was utterly wrong and completely reprehensible. It should have been in a personal meeting. If that was the way he ran his businesses no wonder they kept getting into trouble.
    The letter is pretty stupid in that any principled case for firing the FBI director ought also to address the issues that to do so is almost without precedent, and fire one who is in the process of conducting an investigation into the president's associates utterly beyond any political norms.
    That it doesn't even consider these issues, let alone provide a rationale renders its appeal to "regaining the public trust" utterly ridiculous.

    I'm more inclined to agree with this comment:
    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/09/trump-comey-nixon-firing-watergate-238189
    “The rationale is transparently absurd,” Waldman said. “Does anyone actually believe that Trump fired Comey because Comey was unfair to Hillary Clinton during the campaign?
    Actually the letter claimed Coney was fired for unnecessarily explaining why the investigation into Clinton was dropped last summer....
    And goes on to say:
    Compounding the error, the Director ignored another longstanding principle: we do not hold press conferences to release derogatory information about the subject of a declined criminal investigation. Derogatory information sometimes is disclosed in the course of criminal investigations and prosecutions, but we never release it gratuitously. The Director laid out his version of the facts for the news media as if it were a closing argument, but without a trial. It is a textbook example of what federal prosecutors and agents are taught not to do. ...
    The point stands.

    No one is disputing that Comey behaved egregiously over the Clinton investigation, but that's really not what's at issue here. It's just a convenient
    If it were, Trump would have replaced him when he became president, rather than publicly praising him for his handling of the Clinton matter.
    To claim that this action might restore public faith in the FBI, and therefore justifies firing a man conducting an investigation into the administration is simply ludicrous.
    Your bit in italics is something our own dear DPP might want to think about.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Guido Fawkes broke the story, the least the DM could have done was a hattip in his direction.

    It's incredible that the Labour media team have not updated their vetting procedure.

    Please answer the following question before introducing Jeremy

    When did you last post anti-Semitic, racist or homophobic views on Twitter?

    a. Today
    b. Yesterday
    c. Last month
    d. More than a year ago
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,894
    isam said:
    Another FILF?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2017
    Labour are a joke!

    One of the cast of Ben Hur (PB Next Lab leader tips) here...

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/862234506211622912
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    Lamb will certainly still be an MP after June 8th . Look at the vote changes in Melton Constable which the Lib Dems gained from UKIP from 4th place last week . The UKIP vote moved 2 to 1 in Lib Dems favour over the Conservatives who had won the seat in 2009
    I'lll have a look thanks. Norfolk council do have a much nicer results page than all the others I've looked at recently.

    If Lamb keeps his seat it's probably been an OK night for the LibDems so there's no election contest for Lamb to win.
    It's a good map, particularly interesting is Norwich an the collapse of the green vote/swing to Labour. Lewis will increase his majority imo, or at very least hold firm 15% ahead.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    Yup, that social media sure is a bitch.

    https://twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/862207915356286976

    Is there something in the Stirlingshire water?

    I can only apologise on behalf of my fellow Stirling residents for electing SCON candidates with extremist views and extreme adult interests !!
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    kjohnw said:

    June the eighth is going to be hilarious, it would be even better if Tim Farron got decapitated from his seat by the tories :)
    The best thing that could happen for the re-allignment of the progressive centre left would be for the LibDems to be reduced to zero MPs.
    I have been coming to a similar conclusion, the Lib Dem revival has been muted at best despite Corbyn and I really expected them to do better.

    From a centre left perspective all a strong Lib-Dem performance would do would be have 2 competing homes for the anti-Tory vote after June. We would be in the same situation as the Thatcher years. The Tory dominance in those years was as much down to Labour and the Alliance splitting the anti-Tory vote as it was to the Tories own voting strength.

    The country needs a dominant opposition to emerge after June based either on a moderate Labour party that has some appeal to centrist votes or some sort of realignment on the centre left.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    Tories getting their spin in early? They might all be let off in half an hour.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited May 2017

    kjohnw said:

    June the eighth is going to be hilarious, it would be even better if Tim Farron got decapitated from his seat by the tories :)
    The best thing that could happen for the re-allignment of the progressive centre left would be for the LibDems to be reduced to zero MPs.
    Five parties - Lib Dem, Green, Lab, SNP, Plaid - fighting for 45% of the electorate.

    The mere fact that they are having a conversation about progressive alliances is an implicit acknowledgement that some of the brands need to be ditched.

    I could have thrown Respect into the mix as well.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:
    We have to stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    Lamb will certainly still be an MP after June 8th . Look at the vote changes in Melton Constable which the Lib Dems gained from UKIP from 4th place last week . The UKIP vote moved 2 to 1 in Lib Dems favour over the Conservatives who had won the seat in 2009
    I'lll have a look thanks. Norfolk council do have a much nicer results page than all the others I've looked at recently.

    If Lamb keeps his seat it's probably been an OK night for the LibDems so there's no election contest for Lamb to win.
    Look at Holt division and the 2 North Walsham divisions which overall show UKIP support moving 60/40 in the Lib Dems favour .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/mrharrycole/status/862236391140450304

    Too many tweets make a....Trip to the job centre incrediblely likely....Not quite got the same ring to it.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    Yes, even despite the potential for puns if he does go, it would be a real shame to lose him from parliament. One of the best coalition ministers.

    On balance I thought Tim Farron would have been the better campaigner which was what the LDs needed after 2015, but Lamb would have been a good choice for leader in all other aspects.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111

    Ishmael_Z said:

    isam said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    I am thinking that LD are now a Woolworth's party in the sense that if they did not exist, you cannot see any reason for inventing them. Farron's Faggoto Haram moment was lethal not for its religious or homophobic content, repulsive though both are, but because it destroyed in one stroke any general sense anyone had of what the party is about cuddly niceness, beards and sandals, and cast iron guaranteed to take the progressive and liberal view on everything.
    To be fair to Farron, isn't believing something is wrong, but tolerating it a good thing? That is quite liberal I think, that's what tolerance is.

    The intolerance is from people who can't accept those who disagree with them even holding their views
    I am just uneasy with people who have access to an all-powerful being which issues arbitrary and unappealable diktats about moral issues, and the "tolerance" doesn't altogether allay the uneasiness. Sort of like being told in 60s London that Ronnie and Reggie have got their eye on you, but that's fine because they have no current intention of sending the boys round.
    Besides, the term 'tolerate' indicates the tolerartor feels the behaviour is intrinsically wrong and that they are, in some way, deigning to permit it unmolested. Such people, where they seek public office, should be judged on their beliefs and what that says about them as a human being.
    Yes but what do you do? People believe in god. There's nothing anyone can do to change that so once they have that belief it's how it manifests itself in their actions (thoughts are another matter). If a believer detests gay people because that is his religious belief then all one can hope for is that their actions are not affected by that belief.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    If he survives, I think the Lib Dems will crown Lamb.
    If she wins , Jo Swinson will be the next Lib Dem leader .
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Scott_P said:
    We have to get stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    And if there is a question over their performance?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    I know of a number of positive things he did in government (which I can't share on here) but top bod who hasn't had anywhere near the recognition for it. While Vince cable spent his days playing silly buggers this guy has changed the lives of a lot of vulnerable people.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Scott_P said:
    We have to get stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    And if there is a question over their performance?
    Then I would ask doing the questioning to come up with evidence that consists of more than a few tweets from 2010.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    TOPPING said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    isam said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    I am thinking that LD are now a Woolworth's party in the sense that if they did not exist, you cannot see any reason for inventing them. Farron's Faggoto Haram moment was lethal not for its religious or homophobic content, repulsive though both are, but because it destroyed in one stroke any general sense anyone had of what the party is about cuddly niceness, beards and sandals, and cast iron guaranteed to take the progressive and liberal view on everything.
    To be fair to Farron, isn't believing something is wrong, but tolerating it a good thing? That is quite liberal I think, that's what tolerance is.

    The intolerance is from people who can't accept those who disagree with them even holding their views
    I am just uneasy with people who have access to an all-powerful being which issues arbitrary and unappealable diktats about moral issues, and the "tolerance" doesn't altogether allay the uneasiness. Sort of like being told in 60s London that Ronnie and Reggie have got their eye on you, but that's fine because they have no current intention of sending the boys round.
    Besides, the term 'tolerate' indicates the tolerartor feels the behaviour is intrinsically wrong and that they are, in some way, deigning to permit it unmolested. Such people, where they seek public office, should be judged on their beliefs and what that says about them as a human being.
    Yes but what do you do? People believe in god. There's nothing anyone can do to change that so once they have that belief it's how it manifests itself in their actions (thoughts are another matter). If a believer detests gay people because that is his religious belief then all one can hope for is that their actions are not affected by that belief.
    Well, personally, I judge their quality based on it, and tend to not put myself in the position of being associated with or in the social circles of such people. I guess im saying I tolerate religion.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Patrick said:

    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    Your point being that Scottish Indy could reduce the average weight of the population, as well as increasing our country's average temperature and reducing annual total rainfall? What's not to like?
    Good points!
    Do you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London? Is that a consequence of isostatic rebound?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    When people such as a Tredinnick, Farron or Skinner remain, I couldn't agree more.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    TudorRose said:

    Blue_rog said:

    kle4 said:

    Blue_rog said:


    The biggest pool of voters that Lib Dems could fish in to get switchers are Conservative remainers.

    So it is strange that Lib Dems are going out of their way to alienate these votes by forming a 'Progressive Alliance' with Corbyn Labour and the only party to the left of Corbyn, the Greens.
    Correct - I'm one such Con remainer and it's a strong repellant. Mind you doesn't matter anyway here in the paradise of the Bercow republic.
    I'm looking forward to Bercow being ousted as Speaker after the GE
    Given speakers generally go straight to the lords after retirement, bit much asking yet another election for Buckinghamshire. A shame the LDs backed down, first saying it wasn't right to not oppose, then suddenly believing the convention needed to be followed.
    As he's broken so many conventions already, perhaps he can be on the receiving end of another broken convention!
    My dad lives in Buckingham. I would say that even if all the main parties (including the Tories) put a candidate up against him, Bercow would still win. He's enormously popular locally and, because his role gives him speedy access to ministers etc, he has a reputation for getting things sorted in the constituency.

    The opposition to the Speaker system is not the same as opposing John Bercow.

    The Buckingham Lib Dems put a proposal to the House of Commons Procedure Committee to reform the system. Once elected Speaker by the HoC, the Speaker would become the MPs MP for the St Stephens constituency - and a by-election would be held in the Speaker's original constituency.

    This proposal was turned down by MPs. Westminster will only be persuaded to reform the system if the main parties stand against the Speaker. That is what the local Lib Dems have resolved to do.

    John Bercow has been unable to vote or speak in parliamentary debates when HS2 is slicing through the heart of the Buckingham constituency. 78,000 Buckingham electors have been disenfranchised.




  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    isam said:

    Another dodgy claim on the side of a bus?

    https://twitter.com/bakerm11/status/862219876634681344

    That's harsh.

    I imagine most of the June 9th Parliamentary Labour Party will be able to find a seat on it. Jezza will have to sit in the doorway, though.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Evershed, I'd be sorely tempted to vote for Lamb if I were in his constituency.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    Fenster said:

    @Bookseller - GREAT POST

    PB is the best place to read about politics. Full of amateurs, yes (and some pros), but illuminating in a way other sites aren't.

    It's why I like SeanT. He's willing to throw a hand-grenade on the table and (extremely articulately) shoot the shit over it. He tends to inspire emotions and polarised opinions, and no little anger, but the ensuing discussion often shines a light on areas it is otherwise to tricky to politically venture in to.

    Yes, I appreciate Sean T. I've even started following him on Twitter :-)
    It's one of the main reason I visit this site. Yes, Sean is the wrong side of bonkers, and at times he appears to be a hybrid of Genghis Khan and Walter Mitty. He is to discretion what Harold Shipman was to the Hippocratic Oath.

    BUT - his comments are never anything less than compelling, and he is a better wordsmith than just about every other person on this site put together.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    I know of a number of positive things he did in government (which I can't share on here) but top bod who hasn't had anywhere near the recognition for it. While Vince cable spent his days playing silly buggers this guy has changed the lives of a lot of vulnerable people.
    We served together on Treausry and I agree he's a serious and intelligent MP. At one point we, uh, both refrained from discouraging an internet-based initiative to urge Labour voters in Norfolk North to vote LibDem and LibDems in Broxtowe to vote Labour. (I know it sounds unlikely but I never did find out who was behind it and why these particular seats.)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,369
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Patrick said:

    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    Your point being that Scottish Indy could reduce the average weight of the population, as well as increasing our country's average temperature and reducing annual total rainfall? What's not to like?
    Good points!
    Do you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London? Is that a consequence of isostatic rebound?
    Deep fried isostatic rebound I'll wager.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Z, that's a silly comment.

    You need to know volume as well as mass to determine density, surely?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289
    edited May 2017

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Patrick said:

    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    Your point being that Scottish Indy could reduce the average weight of the population, as well as increasing our country's average temperature and reducing annual total rainfall? What's not to like?
    Good points!
    Do you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London? Is that a consequence of isostatic rebound?
    Deep fried isostatic rebound I'll wager.
    Or relativity. The Earth's rotation means people nearer the equator are moving more quickly. So time is passing slower for them, as well.

    edit/ opps, mistake alert. Doesn't the speed-mass relationship work the other way around! If right (and I think it is) doesn't this actually reduce the relative mass of the Scots?
  • welfordwelford Posts: 20
    chestnut said:

    kjohnw said:

    June the eighth is going to be hilarious, it would be even better if Tim Farron got decapitated from his seat by the tories :)
    The best thing that could happen for the re-allignment of the progressive centre left would be for the LibDems to be reduced to zero MPs.
    Five parties - Lib Dem, Green, Lab, SNP, Plaid - fighting for 45% of the electorate.

    The mere fact that they are having a conversation about progressive alliances is an implicit acknowledgement that some of the brands need to be ditched.

    I could have thrown Respect into the mix as well.
    I do find the constant talk of a "Progressive Alliance" interesting. The Lib Dems are an anti-Brexit, pro-free market party. Labour (or at least its leadership) is a pro-Brexit, socialist party. Plaid and the SNP are nationalists, Labour and Lib Dems are Unionists. So where's the deal?

    The second round votes in places like the Tees Valley, West Midlands and West of England Mayoral elections suggest Lib Dem voters split preferences between the Tories and Labour. There is talk in Scotland of Labour, Liberal and Tory voters tactically voting for each other, to curb the SNP. So the idea that the voters are all in one 'progressive' block seems wrong to me.

    I think it's wishful thinking from some moderate Labourites, left-leaning Lib Dems and Greens. There is crossover there for a new party - the Progressives? - but don't think it brings the whole of both parties, let alone their voters, together.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    To add to the Norman Lamb love in, the story of him helping launch Tinchy Stryder's music career (and how they are still like family today) is a good one.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,369
    It appears that the French have a refreshing way with carpetbaggers.

    https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/862239039285547008
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,530

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    I know of a number of positive things he did in government (which I can't share on here) but top bod who hasn't had anywhere near the recognition for it. While Vince cable spent his days playing silly buggers this guy has changed the lives of a lot of vulnerable people.
    For all that we like to hate politicians, there's an awful lot of good people working hard in less high profile jobs, as junior ministers, on select committees, as PPSs etc. Another LD name that springs to mind from the coalition time was Steve Webb as minister for pensions.
  • PatrickPatrick Posts: 225
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Patrick said:

    IanB2 said:

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    Your point being that Scottish Indy could reduce the average weight of the population, as well as increasing our country's average temperature and reducing annual total rainfall? What's not to like?
    Good points!
    Do you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London? Is that a consequence of isostatic rebound?
    Err.....no. It's coz the earth is not a sphere and it rotates - so gravitational field strength is a bit higher at the poles than at the equator. Go north - get heavier. Want to lose weight? Go to Worthing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,894
    matt said:

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    When people such as a Tredinnick, Farron or Skinner remain, I couldn't agree more.
    Tredinnick is on my very short list of MPs I would actively campaign against.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    The cop out solution for the CPS would be to press charges against three or four of the Tories and one or both the LDs...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289
    welford said:

    chestnut said:

    kjohnw said:

    June the eighth is going to be hilarious, it would be even better if Tim Farron got decapitated from his seat by the tories :)
    The best thing that could happen for the re-allignment of the progressive centre left would be for the LibDems to be reduced to zero MPs.
    Five parties - Lib Dem, Green, Lab, SNP, Plaid - fighting for 45% of the electorate.

    The mere fact that they are having a conversation about progressive alliances is an implicit acknowledgement that some of the brands need to be ditched.

    I could have thrown Respect into the mix as well.
    I do find the constant talk of a "Progressive Alliance" interesting. The Lib Dems are an anti-Brexit, pro-free market party. Labour (or at least its leadership) is a pro-Brexit, socialist party. Plaid and the SNP are nationalists, Labour and Lib Dems are Unionists. So where's the deal?

    The second round votes in places like the Tees Valley, West Midlands and West of England Mayoral elections suggest Lib Dem voters split preferences between the Tories and Labour. There is talk in Scotland of Labour, Liberal and Tory voters tactically voting for each other, to curb the SNP. So the idea that the voters are all in one 'progressive' block seems wrong to me.

    I think it's wishful thinking from some moderate Labourites, left-leaning Lib Dems and Greens. There is crossover there for a new party - the Progressives? - but don't think it brings the whole of both parties, let alone their voters, together.
    The only deal is for a political system that allows a range of opinions to be expressed and properly represented, rather than the elective dictatorship that we have now. In other words, a short term one. Which, to be fair, is all that the Greens have ever suggested.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    edited May 2017

    Scott_P said:
    We have to get stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    And if there is a question over their performance?
    Then I would ask doing the questioning to come up with evidence that consists of more than a few tweets from 2010.
    Guido's post says that the tories believe she made misleading statements regarding Thanet. If so that relates to something more recent, and if so, her motives for doing it are reasonable to bring up, regardless of how long ago.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    The ground may be denser in Scotland and thus the gravitational pull greater.

    That doesn't necessarilly mean those that stand above the ground are denser.

    Quad Erat Demonstrandum
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    TudorRose said:

    Blue_rog said:

    kle4 said:

    Blue_rog said:


    The biggest pool of voters that Lib Dems could fish in to get switchers are Conservative remainers.

    So it is strange that Lib Dems are going out of their way to alienate these votes by forming a 'Progressive Alliance' with Corbyn Labour and the only party to the left of Corbyn, the Greens.
    Correct - I'm one such Con remainer and it's a strong repellant. Mind you doesn't matter anyway here in the paradise of the Bercow republic.
    I'm looking forward to Bercow being ousted as Speaker after the GE
    Given speakers generally go straight to the lords after retirement, bit much asking yet another election for Buckinghamshire. A shame the LDs backed down, first saying it wasn't right to not oppose, then suddenly believing the convention needed to be followed.
    As he's broken so many conventions already, perhaps he can be on the receiving end of another broken convention!
    My dad lives in Buckingham. I would say that even if all the main parties (including the Tories) put a candidate up against him, Bercow would still win. He's enormously popular locally and, because his role gives him speedy access to ministers etc, he has a reputation for getting things sorted in the constituency.
    yup.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:
    Roast surely ?

    Dream headline in the early hours of June 9th

    'Salmond filleted and Lamb Roasted by the Tories'
    Farron's anti Brexit campaign in leave voting Norfolk: sending Lamb to the slaughter
    Norman Lamb is a seriously good MP, campaigned for improvements to mental health and made some progress as a minister at the DoH.

    Parliament can not afford to lose such people.
    I know of a number of positive things he did in government (which I can't share on here) but top bod who hasn't had anywhere near the recognition for it. While Vince cable spent his days playing silly buggers this guy has changed the lives of a lot of vulnerable people.
    For all that we like to hate politicians, there's an awful lot of good people working hard in less high profile jobs, as junior ministers, on select committees, as PPSs etc. Another LD name that springs to mind from the coalition time was Steve Webb as minister for pensions.
    Lamb, Webb and Alexander all did a lot for the country and sacrificed their own political careers in the process. They could have spent 2010-2015 plotting to screw the Tories (I am sure they have plenty of "dirt" they could have recorded and used), instead they just got on with the job the best they could. The reports of the coalition were that people like Alexander at the treasury was very grown up and professional throughout his time as part of the quad.

    I would have little trouble voting for any of them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    The ground may be denser in Scotland and thus the gravitational pull greater.

    That doesn't necessarilly mean those that stand above the ground are denser.

    Quad Erat Demonstrandum
    On reflection I think the answer is that the bulge at the equator means that gravitational pull is stronger in Scotland.

    The question is whether Mr Patrick prematurely interjected his question before working out whether the relativity effect might cancel out the circumference of the Earth effect?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,894

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    Lamb will certainly still be an MP after June 8th . Look at the vote changes in Melton Constable which the Lib Dems gained from UKIP from 4th place last week . The UKIP vote moved 2 to 1 in Lib Dems favour over the Conservatives who had won the seat in 2009
    I genuinely like Lamb, and I hope you're right.

    The LDs are quite good at removing underperforming leaders (see Menzies Campbell). If the LDs end up on fewer than (say) 12 seats, then I wouldn't be surprised if the knife was wielded.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Scott_P said:
    We have to get stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    And if there is a question over their performance?
    Then I would ask doing the questioning to come up with evidence that consists of more than a few tweets from 2010.
    Guido's post says that the tories believe she made misleading statements regarding Thanet. If so that relates to something more recent, and if so, her motives for doing it are reasonable to bring up, regardless of how long ago.
    So now we have some seven year old tweets AND a report on Guido that unnamed Conservatives believe that she made misleading statements regarding Thanet.

    Well that's me convinced: clap her in irons.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    We served together on Treausry and I agree he's a serious and intelligent MP. At one point we, uh, both refrained from discouraging an internet-based initiative to urge Labour voters in Norfolk North to vote LibDem and LibDems in Broxtowe to vote Labour. (I know it sounds unlikely but I never did find out who was behind it and why these particular seats.)

    Nick.

    Are you standing as a paper candidate anywhere ?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Jezza going hard for the cyberman vote with his talk of upgrades
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289

    The cop out solution for the CPS would be to press charges against three or four of the Tories and one or both the LDs...

    There aren't any cases with CPS involving LDs?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,856

    Yellow taxi

    Sad. It's increasingly clear that Farron was the wrong choice. This is about his leadership, not his Brexit position.
  • PatrickPatrick Posts: 225

    Patrick said:

    Physics question for the day: Is the fact that you weigh more in Scotland than you do in London evidence that Scots are denser than English?

    The ground may be denser in Scotland and thus the gravitational pull greater.

    That doesn't necessarilly mean those that stand above the ground are denser.

    Quad Erat Demonstrandum
    The ground in Scotland is not denser. It's just closer to the centre of mass.
    My intended wee dig at Scots being dense (trolling malc et al) seems to have been taken seriously.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Jesus Christ, we aren't getting rid of Jezza are we....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,856

    Jezza going hard for the cyberman vote with his talk of upgrades

    "If elected we will turn the government off and on again!"
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Jesus Christ, we aren't getting rid of Jezza are we....
    and......
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,252

    TudorRose said:

    Blue_rog said:

    kle4 said:

    Blue_rog said:


    The biggest pool of voters that Lib Dems could fish in to get switchers are Conservative remainers.

    So it is strange that Lib Dems are going out of their way to alienate these votes by forming a 'Progressive Alliance' with Corbyn Labour and the only party to the left of Corbyn, the Greens.
    Correct - I'm one such Con remainer and it's a strong repellant. Mind you doesn't matter anyway here in the paradise of the Bercow republic.
    I'm looking forward to Bercow being ousted as Speaker after the GE
    Given speakers generally go straight to the lords after retirement, bit much asking yet another election for Buckinghamshire. A shame the LDs backed down, first saying it wasn't right to not oppose, then suddenly believing the convention needed to be followed.
    As he's broken so many conventions already, perhaps he can be on the receiving end of another broken convention!
    My dad lives in Buckingham. I would say that even if all the main parties (including the Tories) put a candidate up against him, Bercow would still win. He's enormously popular locally and, because his role gives him speedy access to ministers etc, he has a reputation for getting things sorted in the constituency.
    yup.
    I can't see why anyone would want to oust Bercow as he is likely to stand down in the next couple of years anyway. Most speakers in modern times do about 9 years and Bercow took over in 2009.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    "Lamb slaughtered" or "Lamb chopped" are surely the putative Norfolk North go-to headlines.

    Does Farron stand down if they have a nightmare election? Lamb is Fav to be next leader but he won't even be an MP. Tom Brake is 3rd Fav but I think he's gone too.
    Lamb will certainly still be an MP after June 8th . Look at the vote changes in Melton Constable which the Lib Dems gained from UKIP from 4th place last week . The UKIP vote moved 2 to 1 in Lib Dems favour over the Conservatives who had won the seat in 2009
    I genuinely like Lamb, and I hope you're right.

    The LDs are quite good at removing underperforming leaders (see Menzies Campbell). If the LDs end up on fewer than (say) 12 seats, then I wouldn't be surprised if the knife was wielded.

    I think a newly created LibDem peer from Bedford might fit the bill ....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017

    Jesus Christ, we aren't getting rid of Jezza are we....
    and......
    Its f##king terrible for the country. We need Labour to rid itself of this cancer before it totally destroys the party and can provide a sensible, strong and stable ;-) opposition.

    Jezza staying either splits the party or they carry on and Maomentum nutters take over more and more of it.

    I am really hoping the polls are wrong and it turns out it is more 40-45 for the Tories vs 25-26 for Labour.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    https://twitter.com/ElectCalculus/status/862238758082621440

    Tynemouth evens on Betfair Sportsbook. Starting to wish I had a few quid on it at 3.5 when I was querying it last week.

    At a nationwide scale, seats like this being in contention makes me wonder just how big the Conservative Majority gets will all depend on a) where Ukip don't stand and b) how much of that vote goes over to the Tories.

    I've had another nibble at the 200-224 and 225-250 Con Majority brackets...
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067

    Yellow taxi

    Sad. It's increasingly clear that Farron was the wrong choice. This is about his leadership, not his Brexit position.
    Indeed. Farron has been found out to be a dud. At a time where the LDs should be making hay, it seems like they are struggling to get more than 10 MPs. Very disappointing.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,989
    chestnut said:

    kjohnw said:

    June the eighth is going to be hilarious, it would be even better if Tim Farron got decapitated from his seat by the tories :)
    The best thing that could happen for the re-allignment of the progressive centre left would be for the LibDems to be reduced to zero MPs.
    Five parties - Lib Dem, Green, Lab, SNP, Plaid - fighting for 45% of the electorate.

    The mere fact that they are having a conversation about progressive alliances is an implicit acknowledgement that some of the brands need to be ditched.

    I could have thrown Respect into the mix as well.
    If they're fighting for 45% of the electorate then they've utterly given up. In 1997 and 2001, those parties won 63%; and in 2005, they won 60%.

    There are a large number of swing voters who could be attracted to the centre/left-of-centre parties who are not currently voting that way. Unless the so-called progressives start to recognise that they could attract them, rather than how to carve up an inadequate total, they'll keep on losing. Trying to impose solutions on the electorate is just likely to lead to further abstentions and vote leakage.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,289

    TudorRose said:

    Blue_rog said:

    kle4 said:

    Blue_rog said:


    The biggest pool of voters that Lib Dems could fish in to get switchers are Conservative remainers.

    So it is strange that Lib Dems are going out of their way to alienate these votes by forming a 'Progressive Alliance' with Corbyn Labour and the only party to the left of Corbyn, the Greens.
    Correct - I'm one such Con remainer and it's a strong repellant. Mind you doesn't matter anyway here in the paradise of the Bercow republic.
    I'm looking forward to Bercow being ousted as Speaker after the GE
    Given speakers generally go straight to the lords after retirement, bit much asking yet another election for Buckinghamshire. A shame the LDs backed down, first saying it wasn't right to not oppose, then suddenly believing the convention needed to be followed.
    As he's broken so many conventions already, perhaps he can be on the receiving end of another broken convention!
    My dad lives in Buckingham. I would say that even if all the main parties (including the Tories) put a candidate up against him, Bercow would still win. He's enormously popular locally and, because his role gives him speedy access to ministers etc, he has a reputation for getting things sorted in the constituency.
    yup.
    I can't see why anyone would want to oust Bercow as he is likely to stand down in the next couple of years anyway. Most speakers in modern times do about 9 years and Bercow took over in 2009.
    He has already announced he will stand down from Speaker next year. The Q is whether he goes straight to the Lords, in which case the people of Buckingham get their election a year late, or whether he returns to the benches, in which case they are disenfranchised.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Blue_rog said:

    kle4 said:

    Blue_rog said:


    The biggest pool of voters that Lib Dems could fish in to get switchers are Conservative remainers.

    So it is strange that Lib Dems are going out of their way to alienate these votes by forming a 'Progressive Alliance' with Corbyn Labour and the only party to the left of Corbyn, the Greens.
    Correct - I'm one such Con remainer and it's a strong repellant. Mind you doesn't matter anyway here in the paradise of the Bercow republic.
    I'm looking forward to Bercow being ousted as Speaker after the GE
    Given speakers generally go straight to the lords after retirement, bit much asking yet another election for Buckinghamshire. A shame the LDs backed down, first saying it wasn't right to not oppose, then suddenly believing the convention needed to be followed.
    As he's broken so many conventions already, perhaps he can be on the receiving end of another broken convention!


    A long list of opponents of the Speaker at general elections are shown at

    http://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/1007?page=1

    Note in particular 1974 Feb and 1974 Oct when Michael Gayford stood for the Liberals against Speaker Sewyn Lloyd as did Labour. Michael Gayford is the father of Nicola Horlick, a well known Asset Manager and Lib Dem supporter.

    Also in 1987 Christine Patrick (Labour) and Julian Goldie (Liberal/Alliance) were selected in the usual way to oppose Speaker Weatherill in Croydon North East

    More recently SNP, Greens and UKIP have stood against the Speaker.

    All the parties (or their predecessors) have stood against the Speaker apart from the Conservatives.

    Of course in many years the Speaker does not stand for election so there can not be a challenge in those years.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Welford, I agree. On a more superficial note, Progressive Alliance is the left wing craptastic equivalent of the Patriotic Alliance. [Also, welcome to pb.com].

    Mr. Woolie, humbug. Only the New Who rubbish cybermen who get killed by hugs and emotion. Not the proper, Old Who, let's-all-pretend-they-aren't-wearing-cricket-gloves cybermen who got killed by Ace shooting gold into their chest grills.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    10 MINUTE WARNING.....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,253
    It looks to me like the Labour core vote is firming up, though I suspect not all in the right places.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    IanB2 said:

    The cop out solution for the CPS would be to press charges against three or four of the Tories and one or both the LDs...

    There aren't any cases with CPS involving LDs?
    Only in the Conservative Party`s smear campaign script-book.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Welford, I agree. On a more superficial note, Progressive Alliance is the left wing craptastic equivalent of the Patriotic Alliance. [Also, welcome to pb.com].

    Mr. Woolie, humbug. Only the New Who rubbish cybermen who get killed by hugs and emotion. Not the proper, Old Who, let's-all-pretend-they-aren't-wearing-cricket-gloves cybermen who got killed by Ace shooting gold into their chest grills.

    The Mondasians are back this series!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Panelbase Subsample Scotland

    SNP 42 Tory 42
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    I still think we are heading for polling disaster inquiry MK II....I just can't believe that a) basically half the nation will vote Tory and b) that Jezza might perform better than Brown or Miliband.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Woolie, stopped watching early on in the first Capaldi series (like him as the Doctor but the writing was not good).
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Labour on 31%? I find that very hard to believe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,257

    Jesus Christ, we aren't getting rid of Jezza are we....
    Mischievous LibDems switching to Labour to shore up Jezza....
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Woolie, stopped watching early on in the first Capaldi series (like him as the Doctor but the writing was not good).

    Oh I love him, it's got better and better since RTD went
  • PatrickPatrick Posts: 225

    It looks to me like the Labour core vote is firming up, though I suspect not all in the right places.

    This is not Patrick being deliberately partisan - but that is bad news for Labour. May gets a big majority, if not a WTF/OMG one. Labour keep Jezza. Labour need to not keep Jezza if they are to survive (and still be called 'Labour').
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    I still think we are heading for polling disaster inquiry MK II....I just can't believe that a) basically half the nation will vote Tory and b) that Jezza might perform better than Brown or Miliband.

    The big issue really is how crap the lib dems are doing, If they can't break double figures then they're letting Jezza off the hook big time. If they could get back to 15% or high teens then that labour figure would fall back hugely.


    Farron, you idiot!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Panelbase "Made Up My Mind"

    Con 51 Lab 31 LD 6 SNP 5 UKIP 5 Green 1
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,636
    Just can't really imagine Tynemouth going blue.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    No one here at PB was hoping for this surely.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/862244467146928128
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_P said:
    We have to stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    There's a difference between a politician/hanger-on and someone who is supposed to act independently in a potentially criminal investigation.

    What would you think if a judge had made derogatory comments 5 years ago about one of your clients? Would you be happy that their views might have "long ago been abandoned"?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    chestnut said:

    Panelbase "Made Up My Mind"

    Con 51 Lab 31 LD 6 SNP 5 UKIP 5 Green 1

    If UKIP only stand in 100 seats, 3% goes blue and 1 red?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017

    No one here at PB was hoping for this surely.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/862244467146928128

    5 MINUTE WARNING....Are the CPS leaking like a sieve again?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,257

    Just can't really imagine Tynemouth going blue.

    It used to be....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017
    isam said:

    twitter.com/standardnews/status/862244286028492801

    The current state of the parties in London, according to YouGov’s study of 1,040 Londoners, is Labour on 41 per cent, down from their 43 per cent at the 2015 election, and Theresa May’s Conservatives on 36 per cent, up from 34.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    This tension is a bit like waiting for the exit poll....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited May 2017

    twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/862245061987364864

    How can that case still be open? Surely the time is just about to expire?

    The twitter army are going to go into meltdown.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,636

    Just can't really imagine Tynemouth going blue.

    It used to be....
    I know that but the middle class that now live in the Tynemouth constiuency are on the whole still very 'culturally' Labour. I think this is an election too soon. Could be wrong.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited May 2017
    ..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,536

    I still think we are heading for polling disaster inquiry MK II....I just can't believe that a) basically half the nation will vote Tory and b) that Jezza might perform better than Brown or Miliband.

    The big issue really is how crap the lib dems are doing, If they can't break double figures then they're letting Jezza off the hook big time. If they could get back to 15% or high teens then that labour figure would fall back hugely.


    Farron, you idiot!
    An issue surely is going to be turn-out. Lot of people think it is already over and May is back in No. 10 effectively, so why bother. Jezza's cultists? Who knows. Half of them are students who don't vote, or do, but will be away as just finished exams etc etc.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Oh dear, frothing lefties spamming social media incoming in 3....2.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,954
    edited May 2017
    And I'm back.

    No charges to be bought, according ot breaking news on the Victoria Derbyshire show.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:
    We have to stop dredging up ancient posts of public figures that show views that are or were commonly held and which might long ago have been abandoned. Ms Edwards is entitled to her past and present opinions, so long as they don't get in the way she performs her job now.
    There's a difference between a politician/hanger-on and someone who is supposed to act independently in a potentially criminal investigation.

    What would you think if a judge had made derogatory comments 5 years ago about one of your clients? Would you be happy that their views might have "long ago been abandoned"?
    You'd want to know what her job was in 2010, at the very least.

    This is a rehash of a year old Guido story btw. https://order-order.com/2016/06/07/key-electoral-commission-expenses-fraud-staffer-ranted-against-tories/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,788

    Just can't really imagine Tynemouth going blue.

    Looking at Iain Dale's list it was the one in Tyne and Wear that seems likely to change. The likelihood of it going Blue is dependent Labour getting the vote out on the day...

    That's irrelevant for all other Tyne and Wear seats that all seem utterly safely labour...
This discussion has been closed.