I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
I want what's best for my country and it's citizens. That means the softest of Brexits or better still, staying in the EU. The alternative is a calamity. Wrapping yourself round the flag and thinking everything will be 'alright on the night' is just delusional. Be afriad, very afraid.
I've just heard the Radio 4 report on that Abbott interview and she had the distracted manner of someone trying to deal with an errant toddler in the background.
If it isn't incompetence she should see a doctor because that was all wrong.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
I want what's best for my country and it's citizens. That means the softest of Brexits or better still, staying in the EU. The alternative is a calamity. Wrapping yourself round the flag and thinking everything will be 'alright on the night' is just delusional. Be afriad, very afraid.
What they want to do is create two classes of citizen, which I hope the UK government will resist.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
I want what's best for my country and it's citizens. That means the softest of Brexits or better still, staying in the EU. The alternative is a calamity. Wrapping yourself round the flag and thinking everything will be 'alright on the night' is just delusional. Be afriad, very afraid.
Sean wants the softest Brexits too. Problem is, neither TMay nor the EU want that, and are actively taking steps to ensure it is as hard as possible.
LOSSES Southport (to Cons) Carshalton (to Cons) North Norfolk (to Cons) Richmond Park (to Cons) Leeds North West (to Lab - bit of a wildcard admittedly)
GAINS Twickenham (from Cons) Kingston & Surbiton (from Cons) Oxford West & Abingdon (from Cons) East Dunbartonshire (from SNP) Edinburgh West (from SNP)
Leaving them unchanged on 9 seats overall.
I can't see Leeds NW going Lab. It's a Remain facing constituency, and Greg had a pretty good lead over Labour.
I can't see Kingston & Surbiton going Yellow either.
And if you're going to use local defences to say that the LDs won't gain Cambridge, then you need to point to the LDs in Southport last year where they were up 7% on their 2012 vote share while the Conservatives fell back.
Are you back to predicting a Conservative win in Kingston & Surbiton ??? You change your mind more times than SeanT.
You're right about Leeds NW, that's an easy LibDem hold.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
Ireland believes that an early agreement on the principle of reciprocal protection of citizens’ rights is highly desirable and achievable.
Ireland believes that an agreement on the rights of citizens should be wide, ambitious and comprehensive, including the persons to be covered and the scope of the rights covered, and the cut-off point beyond which the agreement would not apply to newly arrived citizens.
@bbclaurak: May's critics argue it's her 'bloody difficult' stance that is going to cause havoc, and leave the UK without a decent deal
Doesn't make any sense - they aren't offering a decent deal, we've already been told most of what might like to cherry pick is off the table.
Which is it? Are we able to get a decent deal and TMay is damaging that, or are the EU bending us over a barrel and we have nothing to use as leverage, as we've also been told?
there is now broad consensus on the EU side that the negotiations should be sequenced in a dynamic way, with specific exit issues as set out in Chapters 3 and 4 (bilateral UK/Ireland issues plus settlement/rights) addressed first, with a move to discussions on longer-term issues once sufficient progress is deemed to have been made. This would not require the prior completion of the withdrawal negotiations.
There is a shared desire to have an ambitious and comprehensive Free Trade Agreement between the EU and the UK, covering not only goods but also services, to the greatest extent possible
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
I want what's best for my country and it's citizens. That means the softest of Brexits or better still, staying in the EU. The alternative is a calamity. Wrapping yourself round the flag and thinking everything will be 'alright on the night' is just delusional. Be afriad, very afraid.
Sean wants the softest Brexits too. Problem is, neither TMay nor the EU want that, and are actively taking steps to ensure it is as hard as possible.
Nothing wrong with a woman wanting it as hard as possible.
@bbclaurak: 'Bloody difficult woman' boast won't hurt with some voters-but if May wins, in long term it's precisely that approach that winds up Brussels
Everything winds them up. They hate that national politicians have to play to national audiences sometimes, and they treat with contempt anyone who does it. And who cares? The EU have set out their stall of 'You get nothing and you pay handsomely for that' and are promising not to bend - unless they are now saying they were going to bend, how can they get harsher?
Exactly. The president of the EU or whatever he is, Jean Claude Juncker, leaked to his own sie that he told Theresa May "Brexit cannot be a success". That's at the beginning of the negotiations when you are trying to establish trust. And, of course, he's also poisoned the atmosphere by the fact he leaked all the details (as he sees them) of a supposedly private dinner, in a way deliberately designed to sow discord in Britain and make the Brits look dumb and ill-informed.
Are we supposed to play nice, in reaction?
We negotiate with mind-numbing opacity and obstinacy, and we publicly and logically prepare for Diamond Brexit if it all breaks down.
We only have to look at the history of EU negotiations.
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
Yeah, but you straddle the fence one side then the other in nearly every comment you make. I know why you do it, but it doesn't stop it being irritating.
Mr. Eagles, I'm sorry to hear people thought you were being serious. Surely your comments about Caesar being a better general than Hannibal have let everyone know you're a silly fellow?
Mr. kle4, May might be staking out an electoral/negotiating position. Hard to say.
As for Juncker, you might as well listen to the village idiot. Or drunk.
Mr. D, it's 100% unacceptable to have citizens in the UK subject to foreign law.
Mr. Pulpstar, alas, never saw it. Checked, now 2/9 (Con).
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Don was a top banana.
Hopefully IOS will return, we need to hear how good Labour's ground game is this time.
If this is anything, it's nothing more than an accounting fiddle.
Do you think what the tories did was acceptable?
If laws were broken, then clearly not.
That said, I don't regard bussing activists in as the most egregious breach of the law when, for example, had those same activists made the same journey in their own cars, it would have been perfectly legitimate.
Yes, yes, the activists could have slept on park benches too, which would have made it all perfectly legitimate. But they didn't.
From the EC report;
"Bridgewood Manor: 597 nights between 6 October and 22 November 2014 at a cost of £51,191.16"
If you have evidence of illegal activity by other parties, submit it to the electoral commission.
The tories appear to have bought themselves elections and then lied about it.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
A bit of a non issue really, as May has already expressed the intention to stay in the ECJ for years yet.
I've just heard the Radio 4 report on that Abbott interview and she had the distracted manner of someone trying to deal with an errant toddler in the background.
If it isn't incompetence she should see a doctor because that was all wrong.
I think she missed the vote on triggering article 50 because she was ill.Maybe you are correct.
We only have to look at the history of EU negotiations.
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Blair and Cameron grovelled and got nothing.
in the end it will come down to money. How much we are prepared to subsidise the inefficient and bloated EU institutions for the privilege of a full free trade area.
I expect TM to say we will pay our commitments to the current EU budget round (until 2020) but be very hard on the ongoing payments for the rest.
remember that when it came to money Cameron did get the overall EU budget reduced (for the first time) in opposition to those in charge.
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Yep - by not guaranteeing the existing rights that EU citizens have here, the government is effectively opening the way for rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens in the EU27 to be removed. The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
A bit of a non issue really, as May has already expressed the intention to stay in the ECJ for years yet.
Suspect they want jurisdiction for a lot longer than that.
Just turned on Sky news to be greeted by press chasing Diane Abbott - heart of stone
LOL - turns out Labour figures based on "tougher austerity than even the tories imposed"
Oh dear Labour
Diane chased by the media??? I though she was complaining Labour weren't getting enough airtime.. She really is dreadful, never mind being a hypocrite over private schools.,,
@bbclaurak: 'Bloody difficult woman' boast won't hurt with some voters-but if May wins, in long term it's precisely that approach that winds up Brussels
Everything winds them up. They hate that national politicians have to play to national audiences sometimes, and they treat with contempt anyone who does it. And who cares? The EU have set out their stall of 'You get nothing and you pay handsomely for that' and are promising not to bend - unless they are now saying they were going to bend, how can they get harsher?
Exactly. The president of the EU or whatever he is, Jean Claude Juncker, leaked to his own sie that he told Theresa May "Brexit cannot be a success". That's at the beginning of the negotiations when you are trying to establish trust. And, of course, he's also poisoned the atmosphere by the fact he leaked all the details (as he sees them) of a supposedly private dinner, in a way deliberately designed to sow discord in Britain and make the Brits look dumb and ill-informed.
Are we supposed to play nice, in reaction?
We negotiate with mind-numbing opacity and obstinacy, and we publicly and logically prepare for Diamond Brexit if it all breaks down.
We only have to look at the history of EU negotiations.
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Blair and Cameron grovelled and got nothing.
The difference was that Maggie and John were being difficult within the EU. Being difficult outside is quite a different matter.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
Hmpft.
God I'm bored of Brexit. Thank the Lord I now have to rewrite my novel.
Interestingly, she seems to be doing "blocks" of seats near to eachother each day.
Might be imagining it, but I'm sure that in recent election campaigns, leaders have tended to go all over the place (say, one seat in Cornwall, then dash over to the Midlands for a seat, then over to Wales for another seat) in order to get coverage on as many local news round-ups as possible.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
A bit of a non issue really, as May has already expressed the intention to stay in the ECJ for years yet.
Suspect they want jurisdiction for a lot longer than that.
not worth bothering with in the short term though.
The overall implications of the difference between membership of and access to the Single Market will need careful discussion. Future migration policy is not on the agenda so far, but the UK’s plans in this area will no doubt be important for the overall mood of the talks and the context in which an overall balance is assessed.
Hologramatic technology has advanced somewhat in recent years. How else do you think May executed order 50?
There's 40 Robot versions of TMay going around on Tory Battle buses paid for in breach of election rules I gather.
If you stuck Corbyn in a room, and a Corbyn simulation in another room you'd get a reasonable facsimile of what Corbyn might say. It'd be slightly harder with May I think. Admittedly on that measure I'd have Abbott as higher scoring that either of them, but that'd be for different reasons. The Turing test may be fooled, but not that easily!
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
Hmpft.
God I'm bored of Brexit. Thank the Lord I now have to rewrite my novel.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
I want what's best for my country and it's citizens. That means the softest of Brexits or better still, staying in the EU. The alternative is a calamity. Wrapping yourself round the flag and thinking everything will be 'alright on the night' is just delusional. Be afriad, very afraid.
I'm just stating the facts. When it comes to human rights, this proud and ancient democracy really does not need any lectures or finger-wagging or "adult supervision" from nations that were Fascist or communist dictatorships in living memory.
..and which may well see a Fascist getting 40% in the next few days in the French Presidential Election.
The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
He said a bunch of stuff that apparently was just banter...
It's one thing fibbing about spending money in the NHS, it is a very different thing to lie about fundamental rights enjoyed by hundreds of thousands - if not more - British citizens living in the European Union. We know that the EU is willing to protect those rights as it has said so clearly and unequivocally. The only issue is over the competence of the ECJ. Unless the UK government is not willing to see UK citizens' rights protected to the extent that they are now.
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Peers is talking utter garbage. No wonder you are repeating it. The basic logic is that people, wherever they live, will be treated equally with the rest of the citizens of that country or territory. So EU citizens settled in the UK should, after Brexit, have the same rights as UK citizens and by the same measure UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as other EU citizens. Neither group should be discriminated against relative to the nationals of the country.
At the moment neither side is offering this. We should take the lead and make it clear that is what the situation will be for EU citizens in the UK. What we should not do is allow EU citizens in the UK to operate under EU law after Brexit.
Ireland wants the closest possible relationship between the EU and the UK, including in relation to trade, and therefore agrees that discussions between the EU and the UK on its future relationship and a possible free trade agreement should begin as soon as possible once sufficient progress has been made on the withdrawal issues. • An EU-UK Free Trade Agreement should be comprehensive and ambitious and as wide as possible in its scope. The Government will be firm in arguing that such an agreement must protect the key sectors of the Irish economy given the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland and the importance of our economic relationship with the UK.
If this is anything, it's nothing more than an accounting fiddle.
Do you think what the tories did was acceptable?
If laws were broken, then clearly not.
That said, I don't regard bussing activists in as the most egregious breach of the law when, for example, had those same activists made the same journey in their own cars, it would have been perfectly legitimate.
Yes, yes, the activists could have slept on park benches too, which would have made it all perfectly legitimate. But they didn't.
From the EC report;
"Bridgewood Manor: 597 nights between 6 October and 22 November 2014 at a cost of £51,191.16"
If you have evidence of illegal activity by other parties, submit it to the electoral commission.
The tories appear to have bought themselves elections and then lied about it.
That's not ok.
oooh mods - you happy with this
Ex post facto whining like a bitch is the new campaigning, it seems. Tories, Labour, Chi Chi Man Haram, OMRLP and the Pirate Party and others are all fighting GE 2017, and where's Back into Europe ASAP FFS? Doesn't exist, because its potential members are flogging their keyboards, and for all I know their members, over various really, really historically interesting bus-related issues from 2016 and 2015. Way to go, lads, tell us again the well-loved tale of how £350m was a gross figure.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Don was a top banana.
Hopefully IOS will return, we need to hear how good Labour's ground game is this time.
Am I right in thinking that Tissue Price has applied for the Don Valley job ?
I suspect that the lovely Caroline is somewhat worried - there are some rather panicky "I'm your MP and here to help, please contact me with any problems" leaflets seen in her constituency.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
The rights should be guaranteed under British law just as they should be for any other person permanently settled in the UK.
@bbclaurak: 'Bloody difficult woman' boast won't hurt with some voters-but if May wins, in long term it's precisely that approach that winds up Brussels
Everything winds them up. They hate that national politicians have to play to national audiences sometimes, and they treat with contempt anyone who does it. And who cares? The EU have set out their stall of 'You get nothing and you pay handsomely for that' and are promising not to bend - unless they are now saying they were going to bend, how can they get harsher?
Exactly. The president of the EU or whatever he is, Jean Claude Juncker, leaked to his own sie that he told Theresa May "Brexit cannot be a success". That's at the beginning of the negotiations when you are trying to establish trust. And, of course, he's also poisoned the atmosphere by the fact he leaked all the details (as he sees them) of a supposedly private dinner, in a way deliberately designed to sow discord in Britain and make the Brits look dumb and ill-informed.
Are we supposed to play nice, in reaction?
We negotiate with mind-numbing opacity and obstinacy, and we publicly and logically prepare for Diamond Brexit if it all breaks down.
We only have to look at the history of EU negotiations.
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Blair and Cameron grovelled and got nothing.
The difference was that Maggie and John were being difficult within the EU. Being difficult outside is quite a different matter.
As I have said all along: hard Brexit nailed on.
WE can be incredibly difficult over these negotiations, sting them out and refuse to budge on anything. Then in March 2019 we will fall off a cliff. That's not how it works when you are negotiating on the inside.
Probably more important than visas for doctors and nurses are the automatic recognition of professional qualifications. All they need is an english language certification. Whether we continue to automatically do so for EU/EEA nationals is one of many uncertainties.
That's a very good point, that needs discussion. I'm sure that for most of Western Europe, US, Aus etc it isn't a problem, but other countries may be more difficult.
Have there not also been stories about clinical mistakes made by EU doctors, such as decimal point errors in dosages, which are not necessarily down to language issues?
To repeat an old suggestion of mine, have the NHS sponsor a teaching hospital somewhere like Mumbai or Manila, awarding British qualifications and fast track visas to graduates who wish to work in UK. Even the hardest Brexiteer is more than happy to see medical staff shortages filled by immigration, as the poll shows.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
A bit of a non issue really, as May has already expressed the intention to stay in the ECJ for years yet.
The main issue for me as far as this is concerned is neither the immediate future, nor any transitional arrangement that may follow, but the end status of EU citizens. I am not at all concerned about the Government granting all of those ordinarily resident in the UK prior to a mutually agreeable date permanent residency rights, but once we are completely out of the EU then they should have no exceptional rights to continue to live under any part of EU law, and no right of redress to the ECJ either.
You can't have a special class of several million overseas citizens effectively going about their business under a bizarre form of partial 'diplomatic immunity,' which lets them opt out of parts of the law of the land that apply to everybody else, and have their cases heard in a foreign jurisdiction that is not, therefore, subordinate to Parliament. If the EU insists on such a thing then no agreement should be entered into, regardless of the potential cost.
Basically they think EU Law > UK Law. Why don't they turn it on its head and withdraw EU rights to the Brits living in the EU27?
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
Fine with me.
Yep - the willingness of some Leavers to sell their fellow citizens down the river is very clear to see.
No. They are not my fellow citizens. My fellow citizens are the EU nationals who I work with. Those living in France and Spain can abide by the law of the land in which they reside.
The two main Unionist parties are playing about over who their respective candidates are (will the UUP walk away? Its on the table) but the DUP are 9/4 and should run the SDLP to the finish, particularly in what appears to be the absence of UKIPs Bob Stoker this time around. Stoker got 1900 votes last time. The guy has a long history in the constituency so was able to rally a vote that stopped the DUP taking that seat.
This is a messy constituency so its a risky bet at 9/4 but if the Unionists agree any sort of running pact, that 9/4 will look very good.
The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
He said a bunch of stuff that apparently was just banter...
It's one thing fibbing about spending money in the NHS, it is a very different thing to lie about fundamental rights enjoyed by hundreds of thousands - if not more - British citizens living in the European Union. We know that the EU is willing to protect those rights as it has said so clearly and unequivocally. The only issue is over the competence of the ECJ. Unless the UK government is not willing to see UK citizens' rights protected to the extent that they are now.
Or unless there's quite a bit more to this than meets the eye and you're taking this explanation of it at face value because it allows you to have a bit of a dig at Theresa May.
Another account said she wanted these rights mutually agreed by the end of June, and it was Juncker who baulked at that.
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Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
Theresa May is in Bristol East tonight, it may be about to ditch Kerry McCarthy.
Good, she’s barking, her ‘Treat meat eaters like smokers’ comment should have set the alarm bells ringing - although Jeremy promoting a vegan to be in charge of farming was hilarious...
Just sold my book to.... Estonia. A surprisingly generous offer from the impoverished Balts, there. And I've been told by the Times I'm going to.... Ethiopia.
Brexit will be fine. All is good. Cheer up everyone. Diane Abbott is still trending at number 1.
*whistles happily*
Congrats
Let me know the title and I'll take a picture of it on the shelf at Rahva Raamat at Viru Keskus next time I'm there.
me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
Hmpft.
God I'm bored of Brexit. Thank the Lord I now have to rewrite my novel. Even plotting, which makes my eyes bleed, is preferable to endless discussions of the ECJ
Me too. Anyway, will be heading to SL during the election campaign and vote to lay my father's ashes to rest in his home town. Flying with the wife and my mother - I am dreading that flight!!!
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
The rights should be guaranteed under British law just as they should be for any other person permanently settled in the UK.
The rights that EU citizens have currently are, with a few very narrowly enshrined exceptions, the ones that all UK citizens enjoy. There is no difference. That is not the case with citizens of third-countries permanently settled in the UK. The same principle applies to UK citizens in the EU27. The EU is proposing that this continue. It looks horribly like the UK is not. Hopefully, that is not correct. It would be nice if the government would say.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Don was a top banana.
Hopefully IOS will return, we need to hear how good Labour's ground game is this time.
Am I right in thinking that Tissue Price has applied for the Don Valley job ?
I suspect that the lovely Caroline is somewhat worried - there are some rather panicky "I'm your MP and here to help, please contact me with any problems" leaflets seen in her constituency.
Theresa May is in Bristol East tonight, it may be about to ditch Kerry McCarthy.
Good, she’s barking, her ‘Treat meat eaters like smokers’ comment should have set the alarm bells ringing - although Jeremy promoting a vegan to be in charge of farming was hilarious...
I can't forget her fat finger moment from 2010, tweeting postal vote totals. Given she is a lawyer, she was fortunate only to be given a caution by the plodsters.
* apologies to all PB lawyers who are not only sharp cookies but also more up to date with Electoral Laws than Kerry MP.
The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
He said a bunch of stuff that apparently was just banter...
It's one thing fibbing about spending money in the NHS, it is a very different thing to lie about fundamental rights enjoyed by hundreds of thousands - if not more - British citizens living in the European Union. We know that the EU is willing to protect those rights as it has said so clearly and unequivocally. The only issue is over the competence of the ECJ. Unless the UK government is not willing to see UK citizens' rights protected to the extent that they are now.
Or unless there's quite a bit more to this than meets the eye and you're taking this explanation of it at face value because it allows you to have a bit of a dig at Theresa May.
Another account said she wanted these rights mutually agreed by the end of June, and it was Juncker who baulked at that.
The UK government could just tell us its position. The EU has made its position clear. I genuinely hope that the reports are wrong and that the sticking point really is only the ECJ, because that can be easily solved.
Peers is talking utter garbage. No wonder you are repeating it. The basic logic is that people, wherever they live, will be treated equally with the rest of the citizens of that country or territory. So EU citizens settled in the UK should, after Brexit, have the same rights as UK citizens and by the same measure UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as other EU citizens. Neither group should be discriminated against relative to the nationals of the country.
Oh dear
That's not what the Brexiteers were arguing this morning...
EU citizens would have rights taken away if they end up "the same rights as UK citizens" like freedom of movement
me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
Well at least it doesn't say 'happy warrior' I suppose, thank heaven's for small mercies.
That would be because the EU wants to retain jurisdiction over EU citizens living in a non-EU country. It is not calling someone's bluff if your offer is unreasonable.
But Rob, doesn't the US claim jurisdiction over its own citizens wherever in the world they may be?
me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
That'll get her a majority. for a landslide, she needs to alternate it with Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn Corbyn.
@SouthamObserver Sorry to go off topic, but I've been dying to ask this.. Are you an American/Have American relatives/have spent an extensive time in the Western United States? (its the words that you use in your postings)
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
A bit of a non issue really, as May has already expressed the intention to stay in the ECJ for years yet.
The main issue for me as far as this is concerned is neither the immediate future, nor any transitional arrangement that may follow, but the end status of EU citizens. I am not at all concerned about the Government granting all of those ordinarily resident in the UK prior to a mutually agreeable date permanent residency rights, but once we are completely out of the EU then they should have no exceptional rights to continue to live under any part of EU law, and no right of redress to the ECJ either.
You can't have a special class of several million overseas citizens effectively going about their business under a bizarre form of partial 'diplomatic immunity,' which lets them opt out of parts of the law of the land that apply to everybody else, and have their cases heard in a foreign jurisdiction that is not, therefore, subordinate to Parliament. If the EU insists on such a thing then no agreement should be entered into, regardless of the potential cost.
Quite. It's an insane and unacceptable request, and surely the EU know this.
I read that Selmayr (who is also accused of leaking the dinner convo) actively wants the talks to collapse. This would tally with that.
Prepare for Black Hole Brexit.
It is an opening position. The UK can come back with its own suggestion. The bigger issue is whether existing rights should be protected in the first place. If both sides agree on this (and we know that this is the EU position), then the rest is relatively easy to negotiate.
Probably more important than visas for doctors and nurses are the automatic recognition of professional qualifications. All they need is an english language certification. Whether we continue to automatically do so for EU/EEA nationals is one of many uncertainties.
That's a very good point, that needs discussion. I'm sure that for most of Western Europe, US, Aus etc it isn't a problem, but other countries may be more difficult.
Have there not also been stories about clinical mistakes made by EU doctors, such as decimal point errors in dosages, which are not necessarily down to language issues?
To repeat an old suggestion of mine, have the NHS sponsor a teaching hospital somewhere like Mumbai or Manila, awarding British qualifications and fast track visas to graduates who wish to work in UK. Even the hardest Brexiteer is more than happy to see medical staff shortages filled by immigration, as the poll shows.
It is a bit more complicated than that, in that medical qualifications are not automatically agreed for non EEA nationals. Post Brexit those rules will apply to nearly all countries (Irish are recognised). In particular postgraduate specialist qualifications are not. This is reciprocal, so for example my Medical degree was automatically recognised in NZ, but no postgraduate exams. The GMC takes regulation of postgraduate training very seriously.
I am sure that other areas like nursing are similar. One reason we recruit nurses from Iberia is that they are visa exempt, but also their qualifications are automatically recognised. If we recruit in Lisbon those nurses are working here within a month. Recently it has been very difficult to get visas for Filipinos due to Mrs May's restrictions as Home Secretary.
But of course the main purpose of Brexit is to push up pay rates of local workers like yours truly, by restricting overseas labour. This is a feature not a bug.
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
Does he imagine that equivalent welfare and pensions systems exist all across the EU? If he does, he's an idiot.
Peers is talking utter garbage. No wonder you are repeating it. The basic logic is that people, wherever they live, will be treated equally with the rest of the citizens of that country or territory. So EU citizens settled in the UK should, after Brexit, have the same rights as UK citizens and by the same measure UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as other EU citizens. Neither group should be discriminated against relative to the nationals of the country.
Oh dear
That's not what the Brexiteers were arguing this morning...
EU citizens would have rights taken away if they end up "the same rights as UK citizens" like freedom of movement
Get your act together guys.
This is the EU's position:
“Safeguarding the status and rights of the EU27 citizens and their families in the United Kingdom and of the citizens of the United Kingdom and their families in the EU27 Member States is the first priority for the negotiations because of the number of people directly affected and of the gravity of the consequences of the withdrawal for them. “The withdrawal agreement should provide the necessary comprehensive, effective, enforceable and non-discriminatory guarantees for those citizens’ rights.
The Agreement should safeguard the status and rights derived from Union law at the withdrawal date, including those the enjoyment of which will intervene at a later date (e.g. rights related to old age pensions) both for EU27 citizens residing (or having resided) and/or working (or having worked) in the United Kingdom and for United Kingdom citizens residing (or having resided) and/or working (or having worked) in one of the Member States of the EU27.”
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Yep - by not guaranteeing the existing rights that EU citizens have here, the government is effectively opening the way for rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens in the EU27 to be removed. The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
The two main Unionist parties are playing about over who their respective candidates are (will the UUP walk away? Its on the table) but the DUP are 9/4 and should run the SDLP to the finish, particularly in what appears to be the absence of UKIPs Bob Stoker this time around. Stoker got 1900 votes last time. The guy has a long history in the constituency so was able to rally a vote that stopped the DUP taking that seat.
This is a messy constituency so its a risky bet at 9/4 but if the Unionists agree any sort of running pact, that 9/4 will look very good.
The Guardian liveblog was reporting earlier today that the UUP are not putting up a candidate in Belfast South.
me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me meme me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
Maybe she's right.
Given where we are now I sort of think that there is simply no alternative to do other than trust in Mrs May's abilities. There are no better candidates, and we did this to ourselves.
It's just possible that she's up to the task. We'll see.
There's a great misconception about how Brexit should be negotiated (I really hope that this isn't shared by the people doing the negotiations) - and that's that we should negotiate down. We need to negotiate upwards from a base of essentially nothing. 'No deal' + .
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Yep - by not guaranteeing the existing rights that EU citizens have here, the government is effectively opening the way for rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens in the EU27 to be removed. The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
They don't enjoy equivalent rights now.
What's the minimum wage in Latvia?
UK citizens living in Latvia are entitled to receive Latvia's minimum wage, just as Latvians living here are entitled to receive the UK minimum wage.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Was Don the chap who had the lowdown on the expenses scandal?
Peers is talking utter garbage. No wonder you are repeating it. The basic logic is that people, wherever they live, will be treated equally with the rest of the citizens of that country or territory. So EU citizens settled in the UK should, after Brexit, have the same rights as UK citizens and by the same measure UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as other EU citizens. Neither group should be discriminated against relative to the nationals of the country.
Oh dear
That's not what the Brexiteers were arguing this morning...
EU citizens would have rights taken away if they end up "the same rights as UK citizens" like freedom of movement
Get your act together guys.
You were the one arguing on the last thread that we should treat EU citizens differently to our own. I am consistent, you are just interested in arguing anything that supports the EU position no matter how inconsistent or bigoted it might be.
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
Does he imagine that equivalent welfare and pensions systems exist all across the EU? If he does, he's an idiot.
Nope - the principle is one of reciprocity. EU27 nationals are entitled to the same rights as UK citizens in the UK. UK citizens living in an EU27 country are entitled to the same rights as the citizens of that country.
I was willing to tolerate this until he said we need ECJ law operating in our country because we "need grown up supervision".
Ugh. Fuck off. Really. Enough of this fucking nonsense. England is the land of Magna Carta, of the Glorious Revolution and the Mother of Parliaments. The ECJ is a bunch of Moldovans, Germans, commies and Belgians sitting in Luxembourg daring to lecture us on human rights, because we need *grown-up supervision*?
Haddaway and shite, you pathetic, spineless Remoaners. Have some self respect. You are BRITISH.
He didn't say that. He described the ECJ proposal as provocative. However, we clearly need a mechanism to ensure that rights are guaranteed. That is where the negotiation should be centred, not on whether the rights should continue to exist.
The rights should be guaranteed under British law just as they should be for any other person permanently settled in the UK.
The rights that EU citizens have currently are, with a few very narrowly enshrined exceptions, the ones that all UK citizens enjoy. There is no difference. That is not the case with citizens of third-countries permanently settled in the UK. The same principle applies to UK citizens in the EU27. The EU is proposing that this continue. It looks horribly like the UK is not. Hopefully, that is not correct. It would be nice if the government would say.
The Government is saying that everyone in the UK should have the same rights, not different ones just for people who happen to be from another country originally.
Do you really want to establish the principle that we should treat foreign born people differently to our own citizens. I would suggest it sets a very dangerous precedent.
That's exactly what will happen if the UK is opposed to honouring existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens.
@StevePeers: 2 First of all, DAG does mention this, but since so many reports don't, I'll repeat it: this issue is now also about *UK citizens in the EU*
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Yep - by not guaranteeing the existing rights that EU citizens have here, the government is effectively opening the way for rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens in the EU27 to be removed. The current foreign secretary explicitly said that this would not happen.
They don't enjoy equivalent rights now.
What's the minimum wage in Latvia?
UK citizens living in Latvia are entitled to receive Latvia's minimum wage, just as Latvians living here are entitled to receive the UK minimum wage.
They are not the same thing financially so their rights are different.If memory serves, there are a number of countries in the EU that don't even have a minimum wage.
The same applies to pension provision, housing support, healthcare etc.
@bbclaurak: 'Bloody difficult woman' boast won't hurt with some voters-but if May wins, in long term it's precisely that approach that winds up Brussels
Everything winds them up. They hate that national politicians have to play to national audiences sometimes, and they treat with contempt anyone who does it. And who cares? The EU have set out their stall of 'You get nothing and you pay handsomely for that' and are promising not to bend - unless they are now saying they were going to bend, how can they get harsher?
Exactly. The president of the EU or whatever he is, Jean Claude Juncker, leaked to his own sie that he told Theresa May "Brexit cannot be a success". That's at the beginning of the negotiations when you are trying to establish trust. And, of course, he's also poisoned the atmosphere by the fact he leaked all the details (as he sees them) of a supposedly private dinner, in a way deliberately designed to sow discord in Britain and make the Brits look dumb and ill-informed.
Are we supposed to play nice, in reaction?
We negotiate with mind-numbing opacity and obstinacy, and we publicly and logically prepare for Diamond Brexit if it all breaks down.
We only have to look at the history of EU negotiations.
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Blair and Cameron grovelled and got nothing.
The difference was that Maggie and John were being difficult within the EU. Being difficult outside is quite a different matter.
As I have said all along: hard Brexit nailed on.
Let's hope so, to coin a phrase I don't want out, I want out out.
Well, never let it be said that Smithson doesn't have an agenda.
OGH just loses a bit of the G at election time, that's all - tweets are an indicator.
People get cranky at general elections.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
It's all more intense.... polling sub samples, anecdotes from the front, mysterious new posters who come with huge certainty and then disappear..... and of course the odd great tip to lump on asap when that comes along - usually out of office hours whilst the relevant bookie is asleep!!
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Don was a top banana.
Hopefully IOS will return, we need to hear how good Labour's ground game is this time.
Am I right in thinking that Tissue Price has applied for the Don Valley job ?
I suspect that the lovely Caroline is somewhat worried - there are some rather panicky "I'm your MP and here to help, please contact me with any problems" leaflets seen in her constituency.
He's on the Tory shortlist.
We'll know tomorrow night if he's got it.
Best of luck to him and I'll make a donation if he wins.
Comments
The FBI has confirmed one of its translators travelled to Syria and secretly wed an Islamic State recruiter whom she had been investigating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39783511
If it isn't incompetence she should see a doctor because that was all wrong.
You're right about Leeds NW, that's an easy LibDem hold.
I had a light joke at Mrs May's expense on Sunday's thread, and I was accused of all sorts, said thread was only two days after I had done a piece saying why Mrs May could win an even bigger majority than expected.
Ireland believes that an early agreement on the principle of reciprocal protection of citizens’ rights is highly desirable and achievable.
Ireland believes that an agreement on the rights of citizens should be wide, ambitious and comprehensive, including the persons to be covered and the scope of the rights covered, and the cut-off point beyond which the agreement would not apply to newly arrived citizens.
Which is it? Are we able to get a decent deal and TMay is damaging that, or are the EU bending us over a barrel and we have nothing to use as leverage, as we've also been told?
there is now broad consensus on the EU side that the negotiations should be sequenced in a dynamic way, with specific exit issues as set out in Chapters 3 and 4 (bilateral UK/Ireland issues plus settlement/rights) addressed first, with a move to discussions on longer-term issues once sufficient progress is deemed to have been made. This would not require the prior completion of the withdrawal negotiations.
There is a shared desire to have an ambitious and comprehensive Free Trade Agreement between the EU and the UK, covering not only goods but also services, to the greatest extent possible
Thatcher and even Major chose to be 'bloody difficult' and received what they needed.
Blair and Cameron grovelled and got nothing.
Mr. kle4, May might be staking out an electoral/negotiating position. Hard to say.
As for Juncker, you might as well listen to the village idiot. Or drunk.
Mr. D, it's 100% unacceptable to have citizens in the UK subject to foreign law.
Mr. Pulpstar, alas, never saw it. Checked, now 2/9 (Con).
Just turned on Sky news to be greeted by press chasing Diane Abbott - heart of stone
LOL - turns out Labour figures based on "tougher austerity than even the tories imposed"
Oh dear Labour
'Don' was the most enigmatic poster ahead of 2010 I think it was....
Why I have a massive man crush on @JohnnyMercerMP Part DCXXIII
https://twitter.com/JohnnyMercerMP/status/859460619300417537
I think Roy Jenkins said in 1983 that every such chant cost Labour a hundred votes.
@StevePeers: 3 UK govt refused to protect EU citizens' rights unilaterally, insisting that talks were needed to ensure UK citizens in EU were protected.
@StevePeers: 4 That means the issue from now one concerns both groups, and should be reported as such by UK media. It also means that any time UK govt...
@StevePeers: 5 ...argues EU proposal is too generous to EU citizens in UK it is equally in effect arguing that UK citizens in EU should be protected less
@StevePeers: 6 You might very well conclude UK govt's concern for UK citizens in the EU is therefore quite hypocritical; but I couldn't possibly comment.
@StevePeers: 8 Let's go further back than DAG goes on this. Here's the Leave side fishing for votes from UK expats: telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopic…
@StevePeers: 9 They make a specific legal argument that acquired rights are protected, so it's fine to vote for Brexit. This article was *repeatedly*...
@StevePeers: 10 ...linked to by Leave side keyboard warriors throughout referendum debate. Any questioning of the acquired rights line was "Project Fear"
Hopefully IOS will return, we need to hear how good Labour's ground game is this time.
She seems to be everywhere lol
I expect TM to say we will pay our commitments to the current EU budget round (until 2020) but be very hard on the ongoing payments for the rest.
remember that when it came to money Cameron did get the overall EU budget reduced (for the first time) in opposition to those in charge.
She really is dreadful, never mind being a hypocrite over private schools.,,
As I have said all along: hard Brexit nailed on.
Might be imagining it, but I'm sure that in recent election campaigns, leaders have tended to go all over the place (say, one seat in Cornwall, then dash over to the Midlands for a seat, then over to Wales for another seat) in order to get coverage on as many local news round-ups as possible.
The overall implications of the difference between membership of and access to the Single Market will need careful discussion. Future migration policy is not on the agenda so far, but the UK’s plans in this area will no doubt be important for the overall mood of the talks and the context in which an overall balance is assessed.
At the moment neither side is offering this. We should take the lead and make it clear that is what the situation will be for EU citizens in the UK. What we should not do is allow EU citizens in the UK to operate under EU law after Brexit.
Ireland wants the closest possible relationship between the EU and the UK, including in relation to trade, and therefore agrees that discussions between the EU and the UK on its future relationship and a possible free trade agreement should begin as soon as possible once sufficient progress has been made on the withdrawal issues.
•
An EU-UK Free Trade Agreement should be comprehensive and ambitious and as wide as possible in its scope. The Government will be firm in arguing that such an agreement must protect the key sectors of the Irish economy given the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland and the importance of our economic relationship with the UK.
I suspect that the lovely Caroline is somewhat worried - there are some rather panicky "I'm your MP and here to help, please contact me with any problems" leaflets seen in her constituency.
Have there not also been stories about clinical mistakes made by EU doctors, such as decimal point errors in dosages, which are not necessarily down to language issues?
To repeat an old suggestion of mine, have the NHS sponsor a teaching hospital somewhere like Mumbai or Manila, awarding British qualifications and fast track visas to graduates who wish to work in UK. Even the hardest Brexiteer is more than happy to see medical staff shortages filled by immigration, as the poll shows.
You can't have a special class of several million overseas citizens effectively going about their business under a bizarre form of partial 'diplomatic immunity,' which lets them opt out of parts of the law of the land that apply to everybody else, and have their cases heard in a foreign jurisdiction that is not, therefore, subordinate to Parliament. If the EU insists on such a thing then no agreement should be entered into, regardless of the potential cost.
The two main Unionist parties are playing about over who their respective candidates are (will the UUP walk away? Its on the table) but the DUP are 9/4 and should run the SDLP to the finish, particularly in what appears to be the absence of UKIPs Bob Stoker this time around. Stoker got 1900 votes last time. The guy has a long history in the constituency so was able to rally a vote that stopped the DUP taking that seat.
This is a messy constituency so its a risky bet at 9/4 but if the Unionists agree any sort of running pact, that 9/4 will look very good.
Another account said she wanted these rights mutually agreed by the end of June, and it was Juncker who baulked at that.
Someone's just found a transcript of Theresa May's next speech....
Let me know the title and I'll take a picture of it on the shelf at Rahva Raamat at Viru Keskus next time I'm there.
Eesti keel only, or ру́сский язык too?
We'll know tomorrow night if he's got it.
* apologies to all PB lawyers who are not only sharp cookies but also more up to date with Electoral Laws than Kerry MP.
That's not what the Brexiteers were arguing this morning...
EU citizens would have rights taken away if they end up "the same rights as UK citizens" like freedom of movement
Get your act together guys.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/pro-european-feeling-on-the-rise-in-france/
Sorry to go off topic, but I've been dying to ask this..
Are you an American/Have American relatives/have spent an extensive time in the Western United States?
(its the words that you use in your postings)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/02/theresa-may-liberal-democrats-defectors-south-west-stick-with-tories
NEW THREAD
I am sure that other areas like nursing are similar. One reason we recruit nurses from Iberia is that they are visa exempt, but also their qualifications are automatically recognised. If we recruit in Lisbon those nurses are working here within a month. Recently it has been very difficult to get visas for Filipinos due to Mrs May's restrictions as Home Secretary.
But of course the main purpose of Brexit is to push up pay rates of local workers like yours truly, by restricting overseas labour. This is a feature not a bug.
“Safeguarding the status and rights of the EU27 citizens and their families in the United Kingdom and of the citizens of the United Kingdom and their families in the EU27 Member States is the first priority for the negotiations because of the number of people directly affected and of the gravity of the consequences of the withdrawal for them. “The withdrawal agreement should provide the necessary comprehensive, effective, enforceable and non-discriminatory guarantees for those citizens’ rights.
The Agreement should safeguard the status and rights derived from Union law at the withdrawal date, including those the enjoyment of which will intervene at a later date (e.g. rights related to old age pensions) both for EU27 citizens residing (or having resided) and/or working (or having worked) in the United Kingdom and for United Kingdom citizens residing (or having resided) and/or working (or having worked) in one of the Member States of the EU27.”
What's the minimum wage in Latvia?
Given where we are now I sort of think that there is simply no alternative to do other than trust in Mrs May's abilities. There are no better candidates, and we did this to ourselves.
It's just possible that she's up to the task. We'll see.
There's a great misconception about how Brexit should be negotiated (I really hope that this isn't shared by the people doing the negotiations) - and that's that we should negotiate down. We need to negotiate upwards from a base of essentially nothing. 'No deal' + .
The question is how big the '+' is.
Do you really want to establish the principle that we should treat foreign born people differently to our own citizens. I would suggest it sets a very dangerous precedent.
The same applies to pension provision, housing support, healthcare etc.
The EU's uniformity of rights is a myth.