No one is advocating tolerance, just arguing that a less coercive approach is better. Extreme coercion does not always work, indeed there are many on here who suggest that the war on drugs is best conducted by legalisation and education rather than an overtly punitive approach to drug possession.
"No one is advocating tolerance ..."
What the hell is refusing to prosecute those responsible if not tolerance of the offence? Mrs CycleFree, lady of this parish, made a very sensible suggestion the last time we had a debate about this issue - make it an absolute offence. Child found mutilated, the parents are guilty.
No one is refusing to prosecute, but preventing the crime is better.
Maybe but prosecute first and then use that fact to prevent the crime. To do otherwise is a sign of weakness/tolerance and should be resisted.
Perfectly possible under existing laws. No need for annual forcible genital examinations of teenage girls, which is where this started.
We have elected police and crime commissioners up and down the land of all political parties who appreciate that the issue is not that simple.
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
You think the parents of a child would be able to argue that ??
hmmmm, colour me unconvinced.
We could count it rather like the possession of a weapon is treated in the UK - if you are found in possession of one, automatic sentence, no extenuating circumstances. If the child which you are responsible for until the age of 18 has been mutilated on your watch, automatic sentence, no questions asked. If it's good enough to stop guns surely it's good enough to stop children going under the butcher's knife?
Sturgeon is going through some kind of breakdown, Davidson has established a crushing psychological dominance over the FM.
I think Sturgeon thought she was awfully clever demanding Indyref2 just before she thought May would trigger Article 50. Then in calling the GE May has put a bomb under the SNP - EU - in or out? Is the GE about Indyref2 or not?
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
Reliance solely on legislation to prevent people from murdering and hacking each other's limbs off will not work to overturn a deeply rooted cultural practice. We've been at it for centuries, after all. If we go after the culprits, we'll only push them even further underground. More tolerance for murderers and mutilators, I say. Isn't their view just as valid as our own?
So trite.
We do not rely solely on legislation and policing to prevent murder. Abhorrence for murder (at least within the tribe) is one of the strongest cultural artifacts in every civilization. For the most part, we rely on culture, not policing, to prevent murder.
So thanks, you've made my point very nicely.
No, sorry, but he is right. No one argues for a less coercive approach to murder prevention; and murder rates are sky high in primitive civilisations without laws and policemen and DNA evidence and stuff like that. No one argues against the use of breathalyzers because it's so much more effective to prevent drunk driving by educating people not to do it. And no one thinks the UK crime rate would be unchanged if we relaxed our gun laws to match the US and relied on all that cultural murder-abhorrence as a substitute for control.
Fillon voters split Macron 41% Le Pen 33%, Melenchon voters Macron 51% Le Pen 19%
A third of conservatives are closet Fascists. Who'd have thought.
20 % of hard left supporters are closet Fascists-Who'd have thought it
BUT BUT BUT ..........
We are on the left of the political spectrum -we are PURE-only the Right has nasty Racists
I am sick and tired of hearing how candidate X Y or Z is "Hard Right" because they are Racist.
Racists, anti Semites, misogynists and homophobes occupy all parts of the political spectrum and until the Left recognise this they will be as inept at dealing with this as the Right was for far too long.
Cif Ken "Mein Kamf" Livingstone.
No, I don't quite buy that, RT, but I am increasingly struck by the similarities between Hard Left and Hard Right in many respects, though not of course political policies.
I do therefore sympathise with your irritation at the lazy assumption that the Right have a monopoly on fascist tendencies, and the like.
Surely The Book of Revelation is more apt for Brexit ?
Having had my blood pressure raised, it is nice to switch. Which bit of the the Book of Revelation do you think is apt for Brexit? Surely not chapter 21, which talks of when a new glorious kingdom comes to replace the old and corrupt one.
'A French mayor has threatened to quit because he doesn't want to 'dedicate his life to a***holes' after his town voted for Marine Le Pen as president. Daniel Delomez described the results in Annezin, northern France, as 'catastrophic' after 38 per cent of voters backed the National Front candidate in the first round of the presidential election.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439672/French-mayor-brands-voters-holes-backing-Le-Pen.html
That's hilarious!
I have some sympathy though. I can remember feeling a bit that way the day after the referendum, but you adjust and life goes on, assholes notwithstanding.
Indeed, though you can understand he no longer has quite the same commitment to public service as he did before
True.
Btw, I wasn't mocking you for your persistence with the 'Le Pen can still win' line last nite. In fact I kind of agreed with you - to the extent that I hedged my Macron bets. I did think it got a bit funny in the end though, but in a wholly admirable and enjoyable kind of way.
Sturgeon is going through some kind of breakdown, Davidson has established a crushing psychological dominance over the FM.
I think Sturgeon thought she was awfully clever demanding Indyref2 just before she thought May would trigger Article 50. Then in calling the GE May has put a bomb under the SNP - EU - in or out? Is the GE about Indyref2 or not?
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
I think it is more that one party can't represent both the left and the right wing constituencies in a country - any country for all that long. The SNP has replaced Labour on the left, and so there is a natural void to fill. Of course you need a skillfull politician to do that - Ruth is skillfull however.
I've just been perusing the constituency odds on Sky Bet. Bloody Hell. Tories nailed on favourites- 1/6 and the like - in Newcastle under Lyme, Bishop Auckland, Wrexham, Newport East. They didn't win some of those even in 1983.
They didn't win ANY of those in 1983.
On the other hand Ilford S and Croydon N would have been Conservative on their current boundaries in 1992 yet they're both 1/200 Labour.
Really? Well that is equally interesting. Similarly, the Tories will not win seats like Manchester Withington, Sheffield Hallam, Newcastle upon Tyne Central that they won in 1983. The long-term shift in the pattern of political geography in the UK is fascinating. We seem to be going through the same shift the USA did 20-odd years ago: the divide is no longer rich v poor but, for want of a better term, fashionable location v unfashionable location.
Edmonton, Leeds NE, Leeds NW, Croydon North, Mitcham & Morden, Ilford South, Edmonton, Exeter, Brent North, Sefton Central were Tory seats in 1992 that are now out of reach. A mix of well-off and run-down.
But, there are plenty of seats that moved in the opposite direction.
Exeter out of reach? Not a dead cert Tory gain by any measure, but certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility.
I've just been perusing the constituency odds on Sky Bet. Bloody Hell. Tories nailed on favourites- 1/6 and the like - in Newcastle under Lyme, Bishop Auckland, Wrexham, Newport East. They didn't win some of those even in 1983.
They didn't win ANY of those in 1983.
On the other hand Ilford S and Croydon N would have been Conservative on their current boundaries in 1992 yet they're both 1/200 Labour.
Really? Well that is equally interesting. Similarly, the Tories will not win seats like Manchester Withington, Sheffield Hallam, Newcastle upon Tyne Central that they won in 1983. The long-term shift in the pattern of political geography in the UK is fascinating. We seem to be going through the same shift the USA did 20-odd years ago: the divide is no longer rich v poor but, for want of a better term, fashionable location v unfashionable location.
Edmonton, Leeds NE, Leeds NW, Croydon North, Mitcham & Morden, Ilford South, Edmonton, Exeter, Brent North, Sefton Central were Tory seats in 1992 that are now out of reach. A mix of well-off and run-down.
But, there are plenty of seats that moved in the opposite direction.
Exeter out of reach? Not a dead cert Tory gain by any measure, but certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility.
It's possible but only if the Tories are 20%+ ahead overall.
Surely The Book of Revelation is more apt for Brexit ?
Having had my blood pressure raised, it is nice to switch. Which bit of the the Book of Revelation do you think is apt for Brexit? Surely not chapter 21, which talks of when a new glorious kingdom comes to replace the old and corrupt one.
The bit about The Whore of Brexit.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BREXIT THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
Not terribly effective if it has happened to a child in your care, you are probably on the hook for neglect or for permitting it to happen.
I believe you are a doctor, and these procedures are generally carried out by doctors in this country. If I were a doctor I'd be a tiny bit angry about that.
Sturgeon is going through some kind of breakdown, Davidson has established a crushing psychological dominance over the FM.
I think Sturgeon thought she was awfully clever demanding Indyref2 just before she thought May would trigger Article 50. Then in calling the GE May has put a bomb under the SNP - EU - in or out? Is the GE about Indyref2 or not?
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
To me Sturgeon is behaving like a 5 foot politician who has managed to dig herself a 6 foot hole.
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Sturgeon is going through some kind of breakdown, Davidson has established a crushing psychological dominance over the FM.
I think Sturgeon thought she was awfully clever demanding Indyref2 just before she thought May would trigger Article 50. Then in calling the GE May has put a bomb under the SNP - EU - in or out? Is the GE about Indyref2 or not?
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
I think it is more that one party can't represent both the left and the right wing constituencies in a country - any country for all that long. The SNP has replaced Labour on the left, and so there is a natural void to fill. Of course you need a skillfull politician to do that - Ruth is skillfull however.
The problem the SNP have is their policies are not left wing - free prescriptions for the middle class - free university places for the middle class - if the Tories proposed what the SNP do they'd be crucified.
Sturgeon is going through some kind of breakdown, Davidson has established a crushing psychological dominance over the FM.
I think Sturgeon thought she was awfully clever demanding Indyref2 just before she thought May would trigger Article 50. Then in calling the GE May has put a bomb under the SNP - EU - in or out? Is the GE about Indyref2 or not?
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
I think it is more that one party can't represent both the left and the right wing constituencies in a country - any country for all that long. The SNP has replaced Labour on the left, and so there is a natural void to fill. Of course you need a skillfull politician to do that - Ruth is skillfull however.
The problem the SNP have is their policies are not left wing - free prescriptions for the middle class - free university places for the middle class - if the Tories proposed what the SNP do they'd be crucified.
Are you suggesting that Sturgeon adopt some more 'iffy' policies to compete? Perhaps she could raid Ed Miliband's manifesto too.
Sky News' description of Macron very different to the one I heard earlier on BBC. Sky saying many in France think of him as "a former socialist" who is like "Hollande in another guise".
Surely The Book of Revelation is more apt for Brexit ?
Having had my blood pressure raised, it is nice to switch. Which bit of the the Book of Revelation do you think is apt for Brexit? Surely not chapter 21, which talks of when a new glorious kingdom comes to replace the old and corrupt one.
The bit about The Whore of Brexit.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BREXIT THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
Heee, heee. Thank you Mr. Eagles. I shall go to my rest much cheered. Of course, quotations from the Bible, as those from Shakespeare, are usually unreliable and always unsound simply because it is so easy to produce another quotation from the same source that shows the opposite.
Good night all and thanks for some interesting posts today.
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
There are no reliable population rates over time, but we do know that rates in second generation migrants are much lower than in first generation. Rates are also lower in more educated migrants.
There is always a tabloid "string em up" culture over child protection issues, but experience has not always been that removing children from substandard parents is the best way forward. The legions of children in care abused by staff or trafficked into prostitution tell us that.
But the beauty of an effective screening program is, there's no one to string up because the practice is killed stone dead.
What is your budgetary plan to finance this massive targetting of police and childcare resources? It is encouraging to hear PB rightwingers advocating investment in public services for women and ethnic minorities.
Are you pretending to think I don't really mind about women being forcibly mutilated because they are women, or from ethnic minorities? A peculiarly silly suggestion. And why would there be a police involvement in a screening for physical evidence of genital mutilation?
Are you expecting for 30 000 girls to be inspected annually without additional resources?
If the children refuse examination, should the state forcibly examine them? How would you envisage this being done?
We know that abuse victims are often unwilling to testify against their abusers. What happens if they are unwilling to do so, or if they cover up for their families?
how do you cover up FGM?
Refuse to say how it was done, or by whom.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
All I always voted t'Labour....Mrs May is great....crickey...
All the evidence is that Labour is sunk.
As I say, I really don't get it. If the response was well Corbyn is crap or Corbyn is a danger to the country, so I will have to go Kim Jong May instead, totally understand. But it is the she bloody great, which I really struggle to get my head around. She has only been in the job a few months and basically got A50 sorted, fine, but nothing to start saying better than a loaf of Hovis about.
What is interesting is that people are totally candid about wanting to vote Tory even in Labour heartlands. There isn't any well you know, Corbyn isn't to my taste and Mrs May says some good stuff and I will have to think carefully....the Vox Pops are all "right, when can I stick my cross next to the Tory candidate, don't know who they are, but I wanna vote NOW".
Its like Iceland has announced a special offer, say you will vote Tory on the gogglebox and we will give you a 50% discount on all frozen meals.
We have to wonder whether Indyref2 will make it into the SNP manifesto
I keep saying it, Sturgeon's Indy Ref stunt the day before May triggered Article 50 will go down in history as a huge political miscalulation. And one which may yet cost the SNP dear at the GE. I see tonight that Sturgeon is again desperately trying to decouple IndyRef2 from the locals and GE campaigns, I doubt the voters will fall for that cynical ploy when time and again she has then tries used their SNP votes as a mandate for it. At some point she has got to start getting on with the daily grind of the day job, especially when she has such a tough opponent in Ruth Davidson.
All I always voted t'Labour....Mrs May is great....crickey...
All the evidence is that Labour is sunk.
As I say, I really don't get it. If the response was well Corbyn is crap or Corbyn is a danger to the country, so I will have to go Kim Jong May instead, totally understand. But it is the she bloody great, which I really struggle to get my head around. She has only been in the job a few months and basically got A50 sorted, fine, but nothing to start saying better than a loaf of Hovis about.
What is interesting is that people are totally candid about voting Tory even in Labour heartlands. There isn't any well you know, Corbyn isn't to my taste and Mrs May says some good stuff and I will have to think carefully....the Vox Pops are all "right, when can I stick my cross next to the Tory candidate, don't know who they are, but I wanna vote NOW".
I keep saying it, Sturgeon's Indy Ref stunt the day before May triggered Article 50 will go down in history as a huge political miscalulation. And one which may yet cost the SNP dear at the GE. I see tonight that Sturgeon is again desperately trying to decouple IndyRef2 from the locals and GE campaigns, I doubt the voters will fall for that cynical ploy when time and again she has then tries used their SNP votes as a mandate for it. At some point she has got to start getting on with the daily grind of the day job, especially when she has such a tough opponent in Ruth Davidson.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
FGM is surgery, it brings with it very physical evidence. Is the same true of sexual abuse?
Happy reading in the Scottish Daily Mail. Happy reading from everywhere in fact - the news just gets better and better if you're a unionist Tory!
Will it last?!
It will go up & down - but the demographic shift in Wales that has snookered Labour - if repeated in Scotland - would spell long term trouble for SINDY, not to mention the decades of North Sea decommissioning costs ahead of them us.......
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
FGM is surgery, it brings with it very physical evidence. Is the same true of sexual abuse?
Sexual abuse leaves physical evidence too, especially for girls.
There's also uncles, friends of the family, babysitters and more who could be suspects. If the child is old enough they're given privacy the surgery could happen and the parents would not see the evidence left behind.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
FGM is surgery, it brings with it very physical evidence. Is the same true of sexual abuse?
Sexual abuse leaves physical evidence too, especially for girls.
There's also uncles, friends of the family, babysitters and more who could be suspects. If the child is old enough they're given privacy the surgery could happen and the parents would not see the evidence left behind.
I respect the level of civil debate here, and I am sure you are merely playing devil's advocate.
But out of interest, just so we're clear, what - if anything - do you think should be the punishment for a parent who, when proven in a court of law, knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated?
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
FGM is surgery, it brings with it very physical evidence. Is the same true of sexual abuse?
Sexual abuse leaves physical evidence too, especially for girls.
There's also uncles, friends of the family, babysitters and more who could be suspects. If the child is old enough they're given privacy the surgery could happen and the parents would not see the evidence left behind.
I respect the level of civil debate here, and I am sure you are merely playing devil's advocate.
But out of interest, just so we're clear, what - if anything - do you think should be the punishment for a parent who, when proven in a court of law, knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated?
The punishment for a parents proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt to have knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated should be severe indeed. Years in prison.
But as sickening as this abuse is, I still believe in innocent until proven guilty.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
It would work like this: if you're in charge of a child, either as a parent or as a guardian, and FGM takes place, you must be guilty, because there's no way something like that could happen without you knowing. Absolutely impossible. Unless you can prove that the child was abducted by someone else.
Or the child had left their parents custody by going somewhere like school?
I know comprehensives are bad but surely not!
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
I wasn't being entirely facetious. While the parents are responsible for their children, the same could be said in other ways like for preventing sexual abuse etc . . . but how many children have been sexually abused by teachers or priests or other people in a position of trust?
FGM is surgery, it brings with it very physical evidence. Is the same true of sexual abuse?
Sexual abuse leaves physical evidence too, especially for girls.
There's also uncles, friends of the family, babysitters and more who could be suspects. If the child is old enough they're given privacy the surgery could happen and the parents would not see the evidence left behind.
I respect the level of civil debate here, and I am sure you are merely playing devil's advocate.
But out of interest, just so we're clear, what - if anything - do you think should be the punishment for a parent who, when proven in a court of law, knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated?
The punishment for a parents proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt to have knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated should be severe indeed. Years in prison.
But as sickening as this abuse is, I still believe in innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed. On that note, I must head to bed! Work in 7 hours...
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
I am very ignorant on these matters too. I simply imagine that all kinds of abuse can cause all levels of pain yet abuse still tragically happens. I fail to see why this uniquely can't be missed when we have seen time and again cases of other kinds of abuse get missed.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
I am very ignorant on these matters too. I simply imagine that all kinds of abuse can cause all levels of pain yet abuse still tragically happens. I fail to see why this uniquely can't be missed when we have seen time and again cases of other kinds of abuse get missed.
I have read that a female who has undergone FGM suffers excruciating pain every time she urinates, even after the surgery has healed.
I have no children myself, but it seems to me that it would be difficult for a parent to miss such agony whilst the wound is still fresh.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
I am very ignorant on these matters too. I simply imagine that all kinds of abuse can cause all levels of pain yet abuse still tragically happens. I fail to see why this uniquely can't be missed when we have seen time and again cases of other kinds of abuse get missed.
I have read that a female who has undergone FGM suffers excruciating pain every time she urinates, even after the surgery has healed.
I have no children myself, but it seems to me that it would be difficult for a parent to miss such agony whilst the wound is still fresh.
I'd like to think all sorts of abuse can't be missed but it happens tragically. Abusers get children to hide the abuse from parents and other authority figures. The fact that every time she urinates her parents won't be in the bathroom with her could help her hide the abuse.
So, do the SNP really want to improve the lives of Scots, or do they just want to whine about Westminster?
It was the cynical way that the SNP is trying to postpone further powers coming to Holyrood so they don't have to take the tough decisions while still attacking and blaming Westminster.
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
I am very ignorant on these matters too. I simply imagine that all kinds of abuse can cause all levels of pain yet abuse still tragically happens. I fail to see why this uniquely can't be missed when we have seen time and again cases of other kinds of abuse get missed.
I have read that a female who has undergone FGM suffers excruciating pain every time she urinates, even after the surgery has healed.
I have no children myself, but it seems to me that it would be difficult for a parent to miss such agony whilst the wound is still fresh.
I'd like to think all sorts of abuse can't be missed but it happens tragically. Abusers get children to hide the abuse from parents and other authority figures. The fact that every time she urinates her parents won't be in the bathroom with her could help her hide the abuse.
Perhaps, being childless, I am placing too much reliance on a parent being aware of how it is with their child. I was brought up in a loving home, myself; a very great blessing.
So, do the SNP really want to improve the lives of Scots, or do they just want to whine about Westminster?
It was the cynical way that the SNP is trying to postpone further powers coming to Holyrood so they don't have to take the tough decisions while still attacking and blaming Westminster.
I wonder to what extent voters are starting to 'see through' their little ploy?
If a child returned home from school having suffered FGM without the parents' permission, they can surely be held responsible for reporting the fact to the police.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
Same as schools where sexual abuse happens but we know it has happened at schools.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
I rather supposed that the child would be in considerable pain.
They probably would be yes, same as many other children who sexually or otherwise in the past have both been abused and have hidden the abuse from their parents.
I am very ignorant of these matters. I did not know that sexual abuse carried with it anything like the level of pain that surgery on one's genitals would create.
I am very ignorant on these matters too. I simply imagine that all kinds of abuse can cause all levels of pain yet abuse still tragically happens. I fail to see why this uniquely can't be missed when we have seen time and again cases of other kinds of abuse get missed.
I have read that a female who has undergone FGM suffers excruciating pain every time she urinates, even after the surgery has healed.
I have no children myself, but it seems to me that it would be difficult for a parent to miss such agony whilst the wound is still fresh.
I'd like to think all sorts of abuse can't be missed but it happens tragically. Abusers get children to hide the abuse from parents and other authority figures. The fact that every time she urinates her parents won't be in the bathroom with her could help her hide the abuse.
Perhaps, being childless, I am placing too much reliance on a parent being aware of how it is with their child. I was brought up in a loving home, myself; a very great blessing.
Consider this:
Illegal since 1985. At least 100,000 cases. 1 prosecution, (which failed).
I hate to rain on the Uber unionist celebration except that this TNS poll reported in the Mail is so old it has whiskers on it - having started polling on the 20 March and finishing on the 11 April!!!!!
Since then there have been three other polls from BMG, Panelbase and Survation showing independence support at 49 per cent, 45 per cent and 47 per cent. All three showed independence support RISING and the last two are very recent in being post election announcement and finishing polling ONE MONTH AFTER the TNS survey started.
In other words it doesn't mean that TNS is not a real poll just that three more recent real polls show the opposite suggesting that it is an outlier. It also suggests that the unionist celebrations may be premature!
I hate to rain on the Uber unionist celebration except that this TNS poll reported in the Mail is so old it has whiskers on it - having started polling on the 20 March and finishing on the 11 April!!!!!
Since then there have been three other polls from BMG, Panelbase and Survation showing independence support at 49 per cent, 45 per cent and 47 per cent. All three showed independence support RISING and the last two are very recent in being post election announcement and finishing polling ONE MONTH AFTER the TNS survey started.
In other words it doesn't mean that TNS is not a real poll just that three more recent real polls show the opposite suggesting that it is an outlier. It also suggests that the unionist celebrations may be premature!
Do you really think there is any movement one way or the other?
What it does do is complicate Ms Sturgeon's life when it comes to GE2017 - is it about IndyRef2 or not?
That should read March 29-April 11 for Kantar TNS. Otherwise all points apply - the poll is still as old as the hills and compares with Survey dates of Panelbaee and Survation of April 20/21st
That should read March 29-April 11 for Kantar TNS. Otherwise all points apply - the poll is still as old as the hills and compares with Survey dates of Panelbaee and Survation of April 20/21st
I wonder.. would you be saying the same had it shown an increase in support for Yes? Come now, be honest...
That should read March 29-April 11 for Kantar TNS. Otherwise all points apply - the poll is still as old as the hills and compares with Survey dates of Panelbaee and Survation of April 20/21st
20 point lead for No after DKs are excluded. Not exactly going to plan for Sturgeon is it.
Ah, but it's 'as old as the hills' - and in fairness it was completed before GE2017 was announced - which may provide (I suspect temporary) fillip for Sindy.....
So, do the SNP really want to improve the lives of Scots, or do they just want to whine about Westminster?
It was the cynical way that the SNP is trying to postpone further powers coming to Holyrood so they don't have to take the tough decisions while still attacking and blaming Westminster.
I wonder to what extent voters are starting to 'see through' their little ploy?
In the year since the SNP were re-elected to Government at Holyrood there has been no substantive legislation passed at Holyrood, just let that fact sink in. That is simple appalling considering the current state of the Scottish NHS, education and policing etc. Despite having 54 SNP MPs at Westminster, they have basically turned the Holyrood Parliament into a Westminster grudge and grievance whinge fest. You just have to watch FMQs these days, and all those SNP MSP backbenchers can do is bleat about the big boy down at Westminster.
When the SNP had a majority they pushed through some appallingly bad legislation without proper scrutiny, now they have lost that majority they were trying to wing it for the next couple of years by concentrating on fighting for IndyRef2. Basically an excuse not to focus on the day job, or their ever increasingly poor record of delivery on domestic issues. I think that one of the most revealing tweets on the day May announced that snap GE came from Severin Carrell, and it summed up the mess Sturgeon had got herself into over IndyRef2 and the paucity of SNP focus on their domestic agenda. Suddenly after twelve months of wall to wall to Brexit grudge and grievance and IndyRef2, now the SNP want to talk about anything but Independence. Pull the other one Nicola.
Twitter Severin CarrellVerified account @severincarrell @NicolaSturgeon officials say @Scotgov postponing her short term #indyref2 timetable - #GE2017 means "no UK govt to talk to"
In the twitching corpse of SLAB yesterday, with Dugdale still going on about the Tories we saw how 'we are not the Tories' can only take you so far - and when the Tories appoint a leader many find acceptable the bottom falls out of the 'not the Tories' market.
The SNP have two ideas 'Independence' and 'Not the Tories' (despite many policies which favour the middle class at the expense of the poor that the Tories would be crucified for suggesting). So against a fairly popular Tory leader they are in trouble - especially as Indyref2 is not as popular as they would wish.
In the twitching corpse of SLAB yesterday, with Dugdale still going on about the Tories we saw how 'we are not the Tories' can only take you so far - and when the Tories appoint a leader many find acceptable the bottom falls out of the 'not the Tories' market.
The SNP have two ideas 'Independence' and 'Not the Tories' (despite many policies which favour the middle class at the expense of the poor that the Tories would be crucified for suggesting). So against a fairly popular Tory leader they are in trouble - especially as Indyref2 is not as popular as they would wish.
No better sight in PB than Carlotta and Fitalass working at the same time.
In the twitching corpse of SLAB yesterday, with Dugdale still going on about the Tories we saw how 'we are not the Tories' can only take you so far - and when the Tories appoint a leader many find acceptable the bottom falls out of the 'not the Tories' market.
The SNP have two ideas 'Independence' and 'Not the Tories' (despite many policies which favour the middle class at the expense of the poor that the Tories would be crucified for suggesting). So against a fairly popular Tory leader they are in trouble - especially as Indyref2 is not as popular as they would wish.
No better sight in PB than Carlotta and Fitalass working at the same time.
Nothing duller than Surbiton and Bobajobabobabobajobabob commenting on other posters, rather than discussing ideas or polls or betting
Comments
We have elected police and crime commissioners up and down the land of all political parties who appreciate that the issue is not that simple.
As we saw today with the twitching corpse of SLAB there's only so far "We are not the Tories" can carry you - you run out of road sooner or later. Sturgeon is hurtling down that same road. As for drawing attention to Police investigations of MPs.....Sturgeon's rattled....
I do therefore sympathise with your irritation at the lazy assumption that the Right have a monopoly on fascist tendencies, and the like.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BREXIT THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
I believe you are a doctor, and these procedures are generally carried out by doctors in this country. If I were a doctor I'd be a tiny bit angry about that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39698754
http://www.constituencyexplorer.org.uk/explore/cross_section
Good night all and thanks for some interesting posts today.
I don't get it, I really don't. What is great about Mrs May.
Don't think the school nurse at my place could hand out more than a paracetamol, let alone perform back alley operations.
I'm being facetious, but so were you. The parents are responsible. End of.
If schools exist in this country where FGM takes place, then the sooner they are shut down the better.
What is interesting is that people are totally candid about wanting to vote Tory even in Labour heartlands. There isn't any well you know, Corbyn isn't to my taste and Mrs May says some good stuff and I will have to think carefully....the Vox Pops are all "right, when can I stick my cross next to the Tory candidate, don't know who they are, but I wanna vote NOW".
Its like Iceland has announced a special offer, say you will vote Tory on the gogglebox and we will give you a 50% discount on all frozen meals.
Small print.
Like last time.
Will it last?!
Tim should keep his seat, but it's not 100% safe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmorland_and_Lonsdale_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
There's also uncles, friends of the family, babysitters and more who could be suspects. If the child is old enough they're given privacy the surgery could happen and the parents would not see the evidence left behind.
What makes you think that a child abused this way would report this to their parents in order for the parents to be able to report the fact to the police?
Or do you expect parents to regularly check their children's genitals before the police do?
But out of interest, just so we're clear, what - if anything - do you think should be the punishment for a parent who, when proven in a court of law, knowingly allowed their child to be mutilated?
Norfolk North is pretty leavey and also quite old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Norfolk_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
But as sickening as this abuse is, I still believe in innocent until proven guilty.
20 mins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08nx29n/daily-politics-24042017
I have no children myself, but it seems to me that it would be difficult for a parent to miss such agony whilst the wound is still fresh.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142138.Budget_2017__Chancellor_announces___350m_funding_boost_for_Scotland/
Problem solved!
So, do the SNP really want to improve the lives of Scots, or do they just want to whine about Westminster?
Good heavens! The Mail reported a poll accurately! It is 37:55:8 - so 40:60 in favour of 'No'
Matthew Goodwin Retweeted Andrew Lilico
Unless things for Labour change radically over the next 6 weeks I'd put May's majority in the 125-135 range - data combined w gut instinct!"
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj
Put yer life savings on it.
An almost 100% risk free bet.
Illegal since 1985.
At least 100,000 cases.
1 prosecution, (which failed).
"It is estimated that up to 137,000 women and girls living in England and Wales could have undergone FGM."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28412179
Nevertheless, I find it very hard to believe that this is happening without the knowledge of the parents.
I can much more easily believe that parents, brought up to think that FGM is necessary, consider it not incompatible with loving their child.
Thanks for the discussions.
British passengers could be banned from taking laptops on flights to the US
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/british-passengers-could-banned-taking-laptops-flights-us/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Since then there have been three other polls from BMG, Panelbase and Survation showing independence support at 49 per cent, 45 per cent and 47 per cent. All three showed independence support RISING and the last two are very recent in being post election announcement and finishing polling ONE MONTH AFTER the TNS survey started.
In other words it doesn't mean that TNS is not a real poll just that three more recent real polls show the opposite suggesting that it is an outlier. It also suggests that the unionist celebrations may be premature!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/24/personal-tax-allowance-will-go-theresa-may-promise-sweetener/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
What it does do is complicate Ms Sturgeon's life when it comes to GE2017 - is it about IndyRef2 or not?
The way we were: Calling—and not calling—snap elections
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-way-we-were-calling-and-not-calling-snap-elections
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.....
When the SNP had a majority they pushed through some appallingly bad legislation without proper scrutiny, now they have lost that majority they were trying to wing it for the next couple of years by concentrating on fighting for IndyRef2. Basically an excuse not to focus on the day job, or their ever increasingly poor record of delivery on domestic issues. I think that one of the most revealing tweets on the day May announced that snap GE came from Severin Carrell, and it summed up the mess Sturgeon had got herself into over IndyRef2 and the paucity of SNP focus on their domestic agenda. Suddenly after twelve months of wall to wall to Brexit grudge and grievance and IndyRef2, now the SNP want to talk about anything but Independence. Pull the other one Nicola.
Twitter
Severin CarrellVerified account @severincarrell
@NicolaSturgeon officials say @Scotgov postponing her short term #indyref2 timetable - #GE2017 means "no UK govt to talk to"
The SNP have two ideas 'Independence' and 'Not the Tories' (despite many policies which favour the middle class at the expense of the poor that the Tories would be crucified for suggesting). So against a fairly popular Tory leader they are in trouble - especially as Indyref2 is not as popular as they would wish.