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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Lord Mandelson looking crest-fallen on Newsnight.

    Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.

    Metaphor for newsnight...A has been.

    Coming after the big guest....Nicola sturgeons biographer to tell us about sindy. I am presuming her hairdresser was busy.
    Newsnight is great
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    Ah, I see the Lords have voted. What is HM up to this evening? :D
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    edited March 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Lord Mandelson looking crest-fallen on Newsnight.

    Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.

    Metaphor for newsnight...A has been.

    Coming after the big guest....Nicola sturgeons biographer to tell us about sindy. I am presuming her hairdresser was busy.
    Newsnight is great
    Not what the audience figures say. There are twitch channels on at the moment with more viewers than newsnight ie more people want to watch a spotty teenager in his parents garage play video games.
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    Early night so she can have early breakfast with the pen poised
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015

    I think they've misinterpreted the PB/Polling Matters poll.

    They've taken the Scottish sub-sample from the GB wide poll.

    I've dropped Adam from Opinium a message to confirm that they haven't done any Scotland only Indyref polling.
    It's day one and we already have Scottish subsamples!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited March 2017
    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nireland-idUKKBN16K28E

    "Northern Ireland's largest Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein on Monday said it wanted a referendum on splitting from the United Kingdom "as soon as possible", hours after Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon demanded a new independence vote."

    Yes, well unlike the SNP they do not have a majority at Stormont so tough
    The SNP don't have a majority at Holyrood. Take another look!
    They do with the Greens and the Greens back independence, that is a completely different prospect to Stormont where neither SF nor SF+SDLP have a majority or indeed Cardiff where PC are not only not the largest party but have no allies for independence either
    From the Scottish Greens' manifesto:

    "In assessing public appetite for a second referendum we will respect new kinds of citizen-led initiatives - for example, a call for a referendum signed by up to 1 million people on the electoral register."
    Patrick Harvie, the Green Party leader, has already backed the independence vote today
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I thought your Avatar might have been an Indian flag, but rotated 90 degrees :)

    What about the big swirly flower the Indian flag has? You are not trying to imply it is a type of shoe are you?

    It's not a flower, but a 24-spoked wheel:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Chakra
    It is still not a shoe though...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    HYUFD said:

    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nireland-idUKKBN16K28E

    "Northern Ireland's largest Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein on Monday said it wanted a referendum on splitting from the United Kingdom "as soon as possible", hours after Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon demanded a new independence vote."

    Yes, well unlike the SNP they do not have a majority at Stormont so tough
    The SNP don't have a majority at Holyrood. Take another look!
    They do with the Greens and the Greens back independence, that is a completely different prospect to Stormont where neither SF nor SF+SDLP have a majority or indeed Cardiff where PC are not only not the largest party but have no allies for independence either
    From the Scottish Greens' manifesto:

    "In assessing public appetite for a second referendum we will respect new kinds of citizen-led initiatives - for example, a call for a referendum signed by up to 1 million people on the electoral register."
    Patrick Harvie, the Green Party leader, has already backed the independence vote today
    Breaking manifesto commitments is in season...
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,315
    edited March 2017
    Mail being amazingly restrained in the circumstances.

    Nah, only joking!

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/841412220072411137
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    what she backs is a job offer requirement on immigration

    Given the number of times you post this perhaps you can point to a quote where she said it?
    It has already been put to a Cabinet sub committee by Amber Rudd, EU workers will get a visa provided they have a skilled job to go to in the UK. Tourists and students would still have free access post Brexit. That is the basis of the immigration deal the UK government will offer the EU in return for a trade deal of some form
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3839154/EU-workers-visa-skilled-job.html
    Is picking broccoli in the fens a skilled job? Or egg packing?
    Well we can get some of the Leavers to get off their backsides and do those
    Farmers need people who are actually going to get out of bed you know...
    Well they managed too on June 23rd last year, we can reform the welfare system to ensure they do so every weekday
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907
    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    Are we still talking about the BBC killing the top gear brand?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
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    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    You hate England anyway Rog. Surely you can find some Scottish ancestry and then stay in the EU that way?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,015
    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    What were the events of the last 100 years, if it wasn't an empire collapsing?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,315

    I think they've misinterpreted the PB/Polling Matters poll.

    They've taken the Scottish sub-sample from the GB wide poll.

    I've dropped Adam from Opinium a message to confirm that they haven't done any Scotland only Indyref polling.
    Spanked botties if that's the case.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    Do you realise that those people don't get to decide ?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    We left the EU Empire, the Scots may leave the UK. Of course the UK is a union not an Empire and the Scots were up to their neck in building the British Empire
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    What were the events of the last 100 years, if it wasn't an empire collapsing?
    They probably didn't teach all that at his second rate public school.
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    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    hmm.

    The 19% SF supporters who don't support a united Ireland....
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Apparently Wessex wants to take back control.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    Confirming the stereotype of German comedy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited March 2017
    So over a third of Irish voters would oppose reunification, more excluding SF voters, plus of course the prospect of loyalist paramilitaries planting bombs in Dublin may concentrate minds a little
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,470

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    Germany lost a lot of land in 1919 and 1945 :lol:
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited March 2017

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    I have a German friend who wants Gexit, he is in the minority but not all Germans are opposed and the more they have to bail out southern Europe the stronger that sentiment will be
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907
    edited March 2017
    Gisela Stuart is making an extraordinarily muddled case why the Scots should remain part of the UK. She thinks May should refuse it. She clearly doesn't see the irony.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    Do you realise that those people don't get to decide ?
    They do actually. Consent north and south of the border is needed.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    Rental costs fall for the first time since 2010

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39253693

    "The main factor was a big drop in rents in London and the south east of England.

    In the capital they fell by nearly 5% in the past year to an average of £1,246 a month, and in the south east of England they fell by nearly 3% to £1,152."
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nireland-idUKKBN16K28E

    "Northern Ireland's largest Irish nationalist party Sinn Fein on Monday said it wanted a referendum on splitting from the United Kingdom "as soon as possible", hours after Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon demanded a new independence vote."

    Yes, well unlike the SNP they do not have a majority at Stormont so tough
    The SNP don't have a majority at Holyrood. Take another look!
    They do with the Greens and the Greens back independence, that is a completely different prospect to Stormont where neither SF nor SF+SDLP have a majority or indeed Cardiff where PC are not only not the largest party but have no allies for independence either
    From the Scottish Greens' manifesto:

    "In assessing public appetite for a second referendum we will respect new kinds of citizen-led initiatives - for example, a call for a referendum signed by up to 1 million people on the electoral register."
    Patrick Harvie, the Green Party leader, has already backed the independence vote today
    Breaking manifesto commitments is in season...
    I don't like Greens. As soon as they got the Foreign Ministry in Germany they helped invade Yugoslavia, and since they got the chance in Scotland they have supported a minority xenophobic nationalist government without even going through the motions of having negotiations or consulting their membership. Harvie probably heard what Sturgeon said in the media and decided "yeah". They are supposedly an "opposition" party with a "shadow cabinet". I wonder whether they receive any state funding in Scotland for being an "opposition" party?

    Edit: it seems that yes, they do, under s97 of the Scotland Act 1998, "Assistance for Opposition Parties".
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Gisela Stuart looking crest-fallen on Newsnight.

    Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,470
    SeanT said:

    Roger said:

    Gisela Stuart is making an extraordinarily muddled case why the Scots should remain part of the UK. She thinks May should refuse it. She clearly doesn't see the irony

    I love Europe.

    //twitter.com/tlhote/status/841340370340442112
    Love Europe, f*** the EU!
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    NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    Germany lost a lot of land in 1919 and 1945 :lol:
    No doubt the Germans are very keen others don't follow the UK hence their mockery and of course it's massively in their interest this cosy little club with its single currency favouring German exporters continues.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    Two world wars and one world cup.
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017
    (deleted)
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    SeanT said:

    Do you realise that those people don't get to decide ?
    They do actually. Consent north and south of the border is needed.
    The last reliable poll in Ulster - which will decide - showed desire for reunification was a massive 22% against 63% preferring to remain part of the UK

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3780/northern-ireland-border-poll-2016.aspx

    Another, from Lucid Talk, had 61/27.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,300
    I see Sky have done another dodgy "instant" poll based upon customers who respond.
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    Cyan said:

    (deleted)

    And they want Independence from Scotland
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    Can someone summarise Gisela Stuart's reasoning for Scotland to remain in the UK for me.

    Not certain I followed her logic.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162
    Pulpstar said:

    Can someone summarise Gisela Stuart's reasoning for Scotland to remain in the UK for me.

    Not certain I followed her logic.

    Because it would make her feel guilty if they left.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187

    I see Sky have done another dodgy "instant" poll based upon customers who respond.

    It is a weighted poll and done in the same way as they did their NI one which yougov backed up
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,372
    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Scott_P said:
    Scotland has not yet left the UK and May was not from the Tory right
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    isamisam Posts: 41,014
    edited March 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    Two world wars and one world cup.

    A week later an asylum seeker was running round that towns railway station swinging an axe at passers by. Where's the Merkel float?
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    BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    HYUFD said:

    So over a third of Irish voters would oppose reunification, more excluding SF voters, plus of course the prospect of loyalist paramilitaries planting bombs in Dublin may concentrate minds a little
    The weirdest thing about that graphic is that Sinn Fein are depicted in orange
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    May was not from the Tory right

    but they have captured her, and the party.

    Every action she has taken so far has been to appease the headbangers (even the budget shambles)
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    He reads like yet another Scot whining that the English won't save him from his fellow Scots.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Both me and Alastair Meeks are laying the PVV and backing VVD.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Jonathan said:

    So if we Brexit and Scotland leave, I wonder whether Leavers here will see that as a good result. I imagine many will love the idea of a Balkan Britain.

    Some will. For some reason.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    So over a third of Irish voters would oppose reunification, more excluding SF voters, plus of course the prospect of loyalist paramilitaries planting bombs in Dublin may concentrate minds a little
    The weirdest thing about that graphic is that Sinn Fein are depicted in orange
    Well they are in effect the Orangemen of the Republic, as staunch in their views just on the other side of the spectrum
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited March 2017

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
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    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    That is not new - he has said that before
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    May was not from the Tory right

    but they have captured her, and the party.

    Every action she has taken so far has been to appease the headbangers (even the budget shambles)
    It was actually the British people who voted Leave and given the huge Tory lead at the moment they seem quite happy with the direction she is taking Brexit
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited March 2017

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    It does look like we've pushed the self destruct button.
    Even the Germans are mocking us

    image
    I thought Germans actually had a good sense of humour, it doesn't seem that surprising.
    Given it is a poll of ROI only, and has no mention of any associated cost, I am honestly surprised so many oppose unification. Lots of people 'would like to see' a lot of things. I would have liked to have seen an EU than seemed to genuinely wish to reform, rather than see any reform as a stopgap to prevent contagion spreading, but that is not the EU I had to vote for or against.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    What are you watching?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    It was actually the British people who voted Leave and given the huge Tory lead at the moment they seem quite happy with the direction she is taking Brexit

    Populism is popular?

    Truly a classroom every day here
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    edited March 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited March 2017

    Mail being amazingly restrained in the circumstances.

    Nah, only joking!

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/841412220072411137

    Perhaps I am naiive, but I would think most of the other political leaders would be wary of saying Sturgeon has betrayed Scotland even though they think this is the wrong course - can we see who the Mail says 'accuses' her of betrayal?

    I like use of '907 days' though. Some editor obviously thought 'less than 3 years' sounded like it was too long, so even though it leads to a number approaching 1000, the use of days focuses on the smaller increment.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    The manufacturing figures are the best in many years (aided by a falling currency) while the government deficit as a share of the economy is the lowest it has been in 15 years.

    Wages continue to outstrip inflation and the next set of budget measures will pump up consumption.

    The only obvious threat in the next few months is a rise in the interest rate, but even that would only cancel the cut last summer.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    It was actually the British people who voted Leave and given the huge Tory lead at the moment they seem quite happy with the direction she is taking Brexit

    Populism is popular?

    Truly a classroom every day here
    Listen to the EU and populism is an evil force, a contagion to be suppressed.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
    You would not know it from Ruttes' recent rhetoric on migration
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    I saw it. Very funny. Something to the effect that when you've got as bad a hand as we have you should just throw in your cards!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005

    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    What are you watching?
    I was watching Newsnight, slightly behind.

    I don't think he's wrong - or more to the point Britain's hand isn't actually that weak. But the 1st -> 3rd largest 'bloc'/zone in the world (The EU) nevertheless has a stronger hand. Ace high flush beats a pair of tens.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907
    edited March 2017
    SeanT said:

    Roger said:

    Gisela Stuart is making an extraordinarily muddled case why the Scots should remain part of the UK. She thinks May should refuse it. She clearly doesn't see the irony

    I love Europe.

    Paris, today

    https://twitter.com/tlhote/status/841340370340442112
    I'm going to the match in Monaco on Wednesday night sitting at the Monaco end. I'll hold up your poster. Not bad televised all around Europe!

    PS They do some nice covers for you. I used to do the odd one a few years ago
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    Roger said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    I saw it. Very funny. Something to the effect that when you've got as bad a hand as we have you should just throw in your cards!
    By that definition Finland should be getting ready for the re-embrace of Mother Russia.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    What are you watching?
    I was watching Newsnight, slightly behind.

    I don't think he's wrong - or more to the point Britain's hand isn't actually that weak. But the 1st -> 3rd largest 'bloc'/zone in the world (The EU) nevertheless has a stronger hand. Ace high flush beats a pair of tens.
    If Britain has that bad a hand with the EU, Scotland has an even worse one with the rUK
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
    You would not know it from Ruttes' recent rhetoric on migration
    https://twitter.com/sharpethinking/status/841432842374696960 :o
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907

    Roger said:

    Historically great empires took generations to collapse. We seem to have found an amazing shortcut

    You hate England anyway Rog. Surely you can find some Scottish ancestry and then stay in the EU that way?
    My Mother...that's why I'm so relaxed about the crumbling empire
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,883
    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
    With their debts, job insecurities, housing problems and no pension provisions young people can't afford to think about 'big issues'.

    Unless they happen to meet a fabulously rich and generous old bloke :wink:
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    kle4 said:

    Mail being amazingly restrained in the circumstances.

    Nah, only joking!

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/841412220072411137

    Perhaps I am naiive, but I would think most of the other political leaders would be wary of saying Sturgeon has betrayed Scotland even though they think this is the wrong course - can we see who the Mail says 'accuses' her of betrayal?

    I like use of '907 days' though. Some editor obviously thought 'less than 3 years' sounded like it was too long, so even though it leads to a number approaching 1000, the use of days focuses on the smaller increment.
    Less than 22 thousand hours since the last vote ...
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,806
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    What are you watching?
    I was watching Newsnight, slightly behind.

    I don't think he's wrong - or more to the point Britain's hand isn't actually that weak. But the 1st -> 3rd largest 'bloc'/zone in the world (The EU) nevertheless has a stronger hand. Ace high flush beats a pair of tens.
    They are in control of both the process and the timing,when it's in Britain's interest to get a deal sewn up quickly. So, yeah, they are in a powerful position.

    Brexit success for Britain depends on the good will of the EU who have an interest in Brexit not being seen to succeed,
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Artist said:

    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.

    They have a core of dedicated support for independence that will ensure massive rallies and posters will be much in evidence, I am sure. As for the young coming out in their droves again, well, the young are presumably still very much in favour once again, and I imagine the point will be made that to fail once is a setback, but to fail twice, with the backdrop of Brexit? That might mean no other chance even in a young person's life. If the young don't turn out as they did last time, they can only have themselves to blame if they whinge about it for 50 years.

    Night all. It's going to be a long few years.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
    You would not know it from Ruttes' recent rhetoric on migration
    https://twitter.com/sharpethinking/status/841432842374696960 :o
    Great comparison
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
    You would not know it from Ruttes' recent rhetoric on migration
    https://twitter.com/sharpethinking/status/841432842374696960 :o
    Great comparison
    Malfoy and Wilders even seem to be making a similar expression.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting segment at 23:06 - Former Finnish PM calling Britain's hand utter bunk.

    What are you watching?
    I was watching Newsnight, slightly behind.

    I don't think he's wrong - or more to the point Britain's hand isn't actually that weak. But the 1st -> 3rd largest 'bloc'/zone in the world (The EU) nevertheless has a stronger hand. Ace high flush beats a pair of tens.
    They are in control of both the process and the timing,when it's in Britain's interest to get a deal sewn up quickly. So, yeah, they are in a powerful position.

    Brexit success for Britain depends on the good will of the EU who have an interest in Brexit not being seen to succeed,
    Depends on how you define success, for some Leavers controlling immigration was all and staying in the single market with immigration unchecked would be a Brexit failure
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
    Remember our population has increased by about 8m in 20 years.
    Well, that has proven a bit of an issue, politically...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Latest Dutch poll suggests some polarisation post-Turkish demo, both VVD and PVV up, making my £3 of the Greens at 50 look a bad bet. However, note that the poll has the Liberal VVD ahead for the 10th successive time, while Betfair makes PVV odds on. Do we know if Wilders tends to exceeed or undershoot his polling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017

    Rutte and Wilders also debated tonight so that may have a minor impact
    Oddest thing about the VVD is that they're in the ALDE grouping. That is the same one as the Lib Dems, I'd assumed they would be in the EPP - but that is the CDA in the Netherlands !
    I guess the VVD is centre-right but very very very pro EU.
    You would not know it from Ruttes' recent rhetoric on migration
    https://twitter.com/sharpethinking/status/841432842374696960 :o
    Great comparison
    Malfoy and Wilders even seem to be making a similar expression.
    Although Wilders' hair is even more dramatic than the actor's
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
    I totally understand your thinking. I'm just not sure that's true any more. There is a kind of underlying vivacity in the British economy, based on sheer size and youthful enthusiasm. Remember our population has increased by about 8m in 20 years.

    This gives momentum. It is very possible we will simply shrug off Brexit, and nervous oldsters like me (and you, tho you are younger!) will be surprised on the upside.
    I hope your right. But in my industry, there are signs of overheating. This is what a bubble feels like.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
    I totally understand your thinking. I'm just not sure that's true any more. There is a kind of underlying vivacity in the British economy, based on sheer size and youthful enthusiasm. Remember our population has increased by about 8m in 20 years.

    This gives momentum. It is very possible we will simply shrug off Brexit, and nervous oldsters like me (and you, tho you are younger!) will be surprised on the upside.
    I hope your right. But in my industry, there are signs of overheating. This is what a bubble feels like.
    In my industry the weaker pound is doing us nicely at the moment. Might well be the last hurrah before hard Brexit does us in though :>
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,907
    edited March 2017
    kle4 said:

    Artist said:

    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.

    They have a core of dedicated support for independence that will ensure massive rallies and posters will be much in evidence, I am sure. As for the young coming out in their droves again, well, the young are presumably still very much in favour once again, and I imagine the point will be made that to fail once is a setback, but to fail twice, with the backdrop of Brexit? That might mean no other chance even in a young person's life. If the young don't turn out as they did last time, they can only have themselves to blame if they whinge about it for 50 years.

    Night all. It's going to be a long few years.
    They've got a stronger cause this time. Last time it was a few years of a Tory government that they hadn't voted for. This time it's a future that is about to be comprehensively fucked by an even worse Tory government who are likely to be around for at least a generation.

    I think they'll win easily and I think the Irish will follow
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RobD said:

    SeanT said:
    Cameron having two lumps of sugar in his tea rather than one would have also been sufficient grounds. :smiley:
    Yes, this dumb idea is already as tedious as its cousin "it started in America".
  • Options
    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Artist said:

    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.

    20,000 members at that time. 120,000 now. £170,000 raised in 12 hours.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering how many more of these political shocks the economy can take.
    Wondering what's sustaining our current bubble, when it will go pop and what comes next.

    If you talk to the average Brit (especially under 35) they don't give a toss. They're not worried. They don't worry. Politics bores them rigid

    I'm seeing a smart designer/journalist at the moment. 23. Well educated. Southern English. She's informed and articulate. We spoke on the phone a couple of hours ago, I said I was worried by today's political developments, she replied she was only vaguely aware of the Scottish thing in the most airy way, as in: "you mean that woman, Sturgeon, she said something? Oh yeah, OK, hmm, I heard someone mention that this morning, anyway I had my job interview, and...."

    Most people don't care or even notice, even smart people, especially if they are young. They presume the world will carry on much as it is, and maybe they are right, and they are justifiably exercised by much more immediate concerns, like getting a job.
    If she is 23, she was just 13 the last time the economy went pop. The world carries on as it is, right up until it doesn't. She has not seen much change as an adult. It is reasonable for her to assume things just carry on. Sadly we know better.

    My hunch is that we're in a bit of a bubble right now. These political shocks are slowly weakening the foundations of Britain's economy. Something will give at some point.
    I totally understand your thinking. I'm just not sure that's true any more. There is a kind of underlying vivacity in the British economy, based on sheer size and youthful enthusiasm. Remember our population has increased by about 8m in 20 years.

    This gives momentum. It is very possible we will simply shrug off Brexit, and nervous oldsters like me (and you, tho you are younger!) will be surprised on the upside.
    All that increase in population has achieved is to reduce the growth rate per head.

    And the 'underlying vivacity' ** is based upon a trillion pounds of government borrowing.

    ** What is this 'underlying vivacity' ? Property speculation and posh restaurants in London ?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    OUT said:

    Artist said:

    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.

    20,000 members at that time. 120,000 now. £170,000 raised in 12 hours.
    Almost as impressive as Corbyn.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    Artist said:

    Personally I think the SNP will do well to even get near the wave of inspiration they created last time. Massive rallies, Yes posters everywhere, non voters and young people coming out to vote in their droves, social media bombardment, armies of volunteers knocking on doors. Are the Scottish Nationalists going to be motivated enough to do all that again? I can't see it, there was something fresh and organic about the original movement that can never be replicated.

    They have a core of dedicated support for independence that will ensure massive rallies and posters will be much in evidence, I am sure. As for the young coming out in their droves again, well, the young are presumably still very much in favour once again, and I imagine the point will be made that to fail once is a setback, but to fail twice, with the backdrop of Brexit? That might mean no other chance even in a young person's life. If the young don't turn out as they did last time, they can only have themselves to blame if they whinge about it for 50 years.

    Night all. It's going to be a long few years.
    They've got a stronger cause this time. Last time it was a few years of a Tory government that they hadn't voted for. This time it's a future that is about to be comprehensively fucked by an even worse Tory government who are likely to be around for at least a generation.

    I think they'll win easily and I think the Irish will follow
    Sad times. Still have the welsh though, good old Wales.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,793

    Saltire said:

    Sturgeon calling for the indyref now has a feeling of being rather rushed, it is by no means certain that she will be on the winning side and certainly it is along way from when the talk was of waiting until the opinion polls showed a constant lead for Yes before they would call for a 2nd referendum.
    Personally I think that it is highly irresponsible of the SNP to hold a 2nd referendum just now. They will be asking the Scottish public to decide between a status quo that will very uncertain since we will have no practical experience of living in post-Brexit Britain and asked to compare that with an even less certain independent future with probably a completely unknown relationship with both rUK and also the EU.
    It would be much better to wait until we had lived through Brexit for a few years and have a much better idea of how it has actually impacted on the country rather than having to guess. If Brexit is a disaster then I'm sure that Yes would win comfortably and if Brexit is a success then there is a reasonable chance that the SNP would not be in position to call the referendum in the first place.
    Part of the reason why I think they have decided to go for it now is that they know that they might not have the votes in Holyrood in the next Parliament and it is harder to have a referendum in 2020 or 2021 due to a GE and Holyrood elections.

    Well said.
    I just hope Sturgeon's hasty decision doesn't put off too many investors or worse still encourages businesses to up sticks and head south.
    if you were BAe Systems, would you invest in Clyde shipbuilding knowing the Scottish government will be campaigning to cut you off from your biggest customer?
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Saltire said:

    Sturgeon calling for the indyref now has a feeling of being rather rushed, it is by no means certain that she will be on the winning side and certainly it is along way from when the talk was of waiting until the opinion polls showed a constant lead for Yes before they would call for a 2nd referendum.
    Personally I think that it is highly irresponsible of the SNP to hold a 2nd referendum just now. They will be asking the Scottish public to decide between a status quo that will very uncertain since we will have no practical experience of living in post-Brexit Britain and asked to compare that with an even less certain independent future with probably a completely unknown relationship with both rUK and also the EU.
    It would be much better to wait until we had lived through Brexit for a few years and have a much better idea of how it has actually impacted on the country rather than having to guess. If Brexit is a disaster then I'm sure that Yes would win comfortably and if Brexit is a success then there is a reasonable chance that the SNP would not be in position to call the referendum in the first place.
    Part of the reason why I think they have decided to go for it now is that they know that they might not have the votes in Holyrood in the next Parliament and it is harder to have a referendum in 2020 or 2021 due to a GE and Holyrood elections.

    Well said.
    I just hope Sturgeon's hasty decision doesn't put off too many investors or worse still encourages businesses to up sticks and head south.
    if you were BAe Systems, would you invest in Clyde shipbuilding knowing the Scottish government will be campaigning to cut you off from your biggest customer?
    One of my major suppliers is in Aberdeen. I may well be looking for a new supplier after the regular management meeting tomorrow morning.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Saltire said:

    Sturgeon calling for the indyref now has a feeling of being rather rushed, it is by no means certain that she will be on the winning side and certainly it is along way from when the talk was of waiting until the opinion polls showed a constant lead for Yes before they would call for a 2nd referendum.
    Personally I think that it is highly irresponsible of the SNP to hold a 2nd referendum just now. They will be asking the Scottish public to decide between a status quo that will very uncertain since we will have no practical experience of living in post-Brexit Britain and asked to compare that with an even less certain independent future with probably a completely unknown relationship with both rUK and also the EU.
    It would be much better to wait until we had lived through Brexit for a few years and have a much better idea of how it has actually impacted on the country rather than having to guess. If Brexit is a disaster then I'm sure that Yes would win comfortably and if Brexit is a success then there is a reasonable chance that the SNP would not be in position to call the referendum in the first place.
    Part of the reason why I think they have decided to go for it now is that they know that they might not have the votes in Holyrood in the next Parliament and it is harder to have a referendum in 2020 or 2021 due to a GE and Holyrood elections.

    Well said.
    I just hope Sturgeon's hasty decision doesn't put off too many investors or worse still encourages businesses to up sticks and head south.
    if you were BAe Systems, would you invest in Clyde shipbuilding knowing the Scottish government will be campaigning to cut you off from your biggest customer?
    One of my major suppliers is in Aberdeen. I may well be looking for a new supplier after the regular management meeting tomorrow morning.
    Similar conversations being held all over Europe?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,162

    Saltire said:

    Sturgeon calling for the indyref now has a feeling of being rather rushed, it is by no means certain that she will be on the winning side and certainly it is along way from when the talk was of waiting until the opinion polls showed a constant lead for Yes before they would call for a 2nd referendum.
    Personally I think that it is highly irresponsible of the SNP to hold a 2nd referendum just now. They will be asking the Scottish public to decide between a status quo that will very uncertain since we will have no practical experience of living in post-Brexit Britain and asked to compare that with an even less certain independent future with probably a completely unknown relationship with both rUK and also the EU.
    It would be much better to wait until we had lived through Brexit for a few years and have a much better idea of how it has actually impacted on the country rather than having to guess. If Brexit is a disaster then I'm sure that Yes would win comfortably and if Brexit is a success then there is a reasonable chance that the SNP would not be in position to call the referendum in the first place.
    Part of the reason why I think they have decided to go for it now is that they know that they might not have the votes in Holyrood in the next Parliament and it is harder to have a referendum in 2020 or 2021 due to a GE and Holyrood elections.

    Well said.
    I just hope Sturgeon's hasty decision doesn't put off too many investors or worse still encourages businesses to up sticks and head south.
    if you were BAe Systems, would you invest in Clyde shipbuilding knowing the Scottish government will be campaigning to cut you off from your biggest customer?
    One of my major suppliers is in Aberdeen. I may well be looking for a new supplier after the regular management meeting tomorrow morning.
    Are your colleagues aware that you make business decisions based on punishing politicians you don't like?
  • Options
    tessyCtessyC Posts: 106
    Sad times. Still have the welsh though, good old Wales.

    Yup and we are going nowhere : )

    6% back Welsh independence, probably lower than Cornwall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39114914
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Jonathan said:

    Apparently Wessex wants to take back control.

    So does Slough-they can have it.
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2017
    There is genuine anger and dismay here in Scotland at Sturgeon's announcement today, we do not want go through another Indy Ref campaign. A lot of Indy Ref No voters who also voted to Remain in the EU Ref, did not do so for Sturgeon to then use that second vote to try to void their first in the 2014 Indy Ref!! The silent majority spoke in 2014, and they are going to feel very let down and angry at the behaviour of both the SNP and the Greens at Holyrood.

    If the Yes campaign had won just two an half years ago, Scotland would have already suffered a hard Brexit!!
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Saltire said:

    Sturgeon calling for the indyref now has a feeling of being rather rushed, it is by no means certain that she will be on the winning side and certainly it is along way from when the talk was of waiting until the opinion polls showed a constant lead for Yes before they would call for a 2nd referendum.
    Personally I think that it is highly irresponsible of the SNP to hold a 2nd referendum just now. They will be asking the Scottish public to decide between a status quo that will very uncertain since we will have no practical experience of living in post-Brexit Britain and asked to compare that with an even less certain independent future with probably a completely unknown relationship with both rUK and also the EU.
    It would be much better to wait until we had lived through Brexit for a few years and have a much better idea of how it has actually impacted on the country rather than having to guess. If Brexit is a disaster then I'm sure that Yes would win comfortably and if Brexit is a success then there is a reasonable chance that the SNP would not be in position to call the referendum in the first place.
    Part of the reason why I think they have decided to go for it now is that they know that they might not have the votes in Holyrood in the next Parliament and it is harder to have a referendum in 2020 or 2021 due to a GE and Holyrood elections.

    Well said.
    I just hope Sturgeon's hasty decision doesn't put off too many investors or worse still encourages businesses to up sticks and head south.
    if you were BAe Systems, would you invest in Clyde shipbuilding knowing the Scottish government will be campaigning to cut you off from your biggest customer?
    One of my major suppliers is in Aberdeen. I may well be looking for a new supplier after the regular management meeting tomorrow morning.
    Are your colleagues aware that you make business decisions based on punishing politicians you don't like?
    Read that again. I'm not the one who will be making the decision.
This discussion has been closed.