@JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.
All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
Mr L
good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
Wotcha, Mr. Brooke. Got the decorators in, which makes life bloody grizzly and the cat died last month so Herself is still in mourning and moping around the house. Oh, and my back is giving me major gip (am having to use a stick on my morning walk). On the bright side the local off-licence is doing a deal, a litre of The Grouse for seventeen quid, so at least the pain-killer is cheap, and my son hasn't asked for money for a good three weeks. On the whole, mustn't grumble,
Oh
Sad to hear about your kitty ;[
Thank you, Mr. Star. He was a stray who adopted us in 2002 and was, according to the vet, about six years old then. So he had a good innings. Aside from the first three weeks of our marriage, it is the first time in wife's life she has not had at least one cat about the place and I have to admit it does feel strange.
However, the big downside is that Herself is talking about using this feline interregnum as a chance for us to going travelling. Together! She has already fixed up a mini-break in Durham in April and is talking about a cruise! I need to find a couple of stray cats quickly.
Lot to be said for Durham. Centre of the city is one of the finer places in U.K.
Strangely, the thing I most recall about Durham is an aspect of some of the lanes in its surrounding countryside. I had cycled up there from Bedford in 1984 to do a couple of weeks work, passing through York on the Sunday before its cathedral burnt from a lightning strike. On a half day off I did about 40 odd miles around part of Durham's surrounding countryside. Once or twice I came upon a convergence of five or six(?) small lanes in a star pattern in the middle of quite isolated open land. Durham has Roman connections, so maybe there was a temple there. Or what? I've not seen that pattern before or since.
Its interesting how almost all of the great medieval cathedrals are now in small to middle sized cities and towns - Durham, York, Lincoln, Wells, Winchester, Salisbury.
If they were being built now they would be located in big cities and consequently lose their grandeur.
May be excessive dominance of the local area by the church stunted growth?
There is no easily extractable coal or ore within a reasonable distance of York.
All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?
Frank Field probably ought to be a Tory, but the rest are hardly right wing.
Frank wouldn't fit in the Tory party - for example, he believes passionately in universal benefits. He's sui generis.
Amusingly, despite being a supposed "right-winger", Frank was one of the loudest critics of Harriet Harman when she wanted to abstain on the Tories' Welfare Bill a few years ago. I also went to a gathering with him a few years ago where he sounded positively Corbyn-esque on some economic issues, particularly how selfish he thought a lot of big corporations were.
Wotcha, Mr. Brooke. Got the decorators in, which makes life bloody grizzly and the cat died last month so Herself is still in mourning and moping around the house. Oh, and my back is giving me major gip (am having to use a stick on my morning walk). On the bright side the local off-licence is doing a deal, a litre of The Grouse for seventeen quid, so at least the pain-killer is cheap, and my son hasn't asked for money for a good three weeks. On the whole, mustn't grumble,
Oh
Sad to hear about your kitty ;[
Thank you, Mr. Star. He was a stray who adopted us in 2002 and was, according to the vet, about six years old then. So he had a good innings. Aside from the first three weeks of our marriage, it is the first time in wife's life she has not had at least one cat about the place and I have to admit it does feel strange.
However, the big downside is that Herself is talking about using this feline interregnum as a chance for us to going travelling. Together! She has already fixed up a mini-break in Durham in April and is talking about a cruise! I need to find a couple of stray cats quickly.
Lot to be said for Durham. Centre of the city is one of the finer places in U.K.
Durham is great. A fabulous Cathedral, a fine city centre, and Cafe Rouge on the bridge over the Wear.
Its interesting how almost all of the great medieval cathedrals are now in small to middle sized cities and towns - Durham, York, Lincoln, Wells, Winchester, Salisbury.
If they were being built now they would be located in big cities and consequently lose their grandeur.
May be excessive dominance of the local area by the church stunted growth?
That might be a factor.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?
Frank Field probably ought to be a Tory, but the rest are hardly right wing.
Frank wouldn't fit in the Tory party - for example, he believes passionately in universal benefits. He's sui generis.
Amusingly, despite being a supposed "right-winger", Frank was one of the loudest critics of Harriet Harman when she wanted to abstain on the Tories' Welfare Bill a few years ago. I also went to a gathering with him a few years ago where he sounded positively Corbyn-esque on some economic issues, particularly how selfish he thought a lot of big corporations were.
Field is an old fashioned socialist who is wiling to think outside the box for the benefit of his constituents and his country rather than simply trotting out the party line because of party politics.
I could vote for him as my MP even if I disagreed with a fair amount of his views because I genuinely believe everything he does he does for the best for his constituents.
Edit: Oh and Surbiton continues to prove yet again what a complete and utter tosser he is.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?
Frank Field probably ought to be a Tory, but the rest are hardly right wing.
Frank wouldn't fit in the Tory party - for example, he believes passionately in universal benefits. He's sui generis.
Amusingly, despite being a supposed "right-winger", Frank was one of the loudest critics of Harriet Harman when she wanted to abstain on the Tories' Welfare Bill a few years ago. I also went to a gathering with him a few years ago where he sounded positively Corbyn-esque on some economic issues, particularly how selfish he thought a lot of big corporations were.
Field is an old fashioned socialist who is wiling to think outside the box for the benefit of his constituents and his country rather than simply trotting out the party line because of party politics.
I could vote for him as my MP even if I disagreed with a fair amount of his views because I genuinely believe everything he does he does for the best for his constituents.
Edit: Oh and Surbiton continues to prove yet again what a complete and utter tosser he is.
Yes, he's a good man in politics for the right reasons. That he is still around after the way Blair treated him as welfare reform minister in 1998 is a credit to him.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
I would have thought that the great cathedrals (and major churches) were built in the most prosperous areas at the time they were built. The industrial revolution changed that in the UK, what had been quiet backwaters became cities and the location of wealth moved accordingly. The effect was less pronounced in Europe because England industrialised first.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times. However, five or six centuries ago those towns were very wealthy on the back of the wool trade. The same can be said of a lot of our great cathedral cities, they were the centres of an agrarian economy often dating back to pre-Roman times.
Why doesn't the nation just realign on Leave/Remain lines? We'll have Greater London, the Cotswolds, all of Scotland, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle. Leave can have Doncaster and the rest.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times.
Which gives the lie to the oft repeated claim that England is full.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
Sounds like almost every important event in history.
Why doesn't the nation just realign on Leave/Remain lines? We'll have Greater London, the Cotswolds, all of Scotland, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle. Leave can have Doncaster and the rest.
You would starve to death within 2 weeks.
The protectionism of EEA Brexitstan revealed in all its naked glory!
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times.
Which gives the lie to the oft repeated claim that England is full.
More likely England was more religious in past centuries.
TSE If you have time perhaps you might care to take a look at the latest ICM tables. A few commentators have expressed doubts about the adjustments made to take account of Don't Knows and Total Refusals. Personally I think it rather dangerous to assume that because those groups appear to have split substantially in the Tories' favour in 2015 that such a pattern is likely to be permanent and on going. I am also puzzled by the Net England data in their tables. This does seem to match the Totals of the English Regions listed.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
I would have thought that the great cathedrals (and major churches) were built in the most prosperous areas at the time they were built. The industrial revolution changed that in the UK, what had been quiet backwaters became cities and the location of wealth moved accordingly. The effect was less pronounced in Europe because England industrialised first.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times. However, five or six centuries ago those towns were very wealthy on the back of the wool trade. The same can be said of a lot of our great cathedral cities, they were the centres of an agrarian economy often dating back to pre-Roman times.
I don't think it soley that populations have dropped, Churches were often built larger than needed. Partly it was civic boosterism, to outshine the neighbours, partly as a form of outdoor relief for the parish poor. A lot of British churches were underfilled in their heyday and a burden on their parish.
I think the same goes for other countries too. I visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul last year, and even on a Friday there were no more than a couple of dozen praying.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
LOL.
Well maybe that wasn't the highest bar to get over.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times.
Which gives the lie to the oft repeated claim that England is full.
More likely England was more religious in past centuries.
Luckily we're taking control of all those Europeans coming over here, filling up our churches...
Why doesn't the nation just realign on Leave/Remain lines? We'll have Greater London, the Cotswolds, all of Scotland, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle. Leave can have Doncaster and the rest.
You would starve to death within 2 weeks.
The protectionism of EEA Brexitstan revealed in all its naked glory!
No just my own personal spite. I never said I was a nice person. If you want a civil war I would be very happy to give you one.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times.
Which gives the lie to the oft repeated claim that England is full.
Not at all. The population was no bigger then. It was just that there was more disposable wealth in the hands of local individuals who wanted to make their mark on their community instead of spending it on yachts and islands.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
LOL.
Well maybe that wasn't the highest bar to get over.
Much as I am getting very uneasy with her actual policies, would you not say May is proving to be a more talented politician (or salesperson) than Cameron ever was, and certainly moreso than Osborne?
Much as I am getting very uneasy with her actual policies, would you not say May is proving to be a more talented politician (or salesperson) than Cameron ever was, and certainly moreso than Osborne?
May is courting the headbangers that undid Cameron.
@JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.
All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
Mr L
good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
W
However, the big downside is that Herself is talking about using this feline interregnum as a chance for us to going travelling. Together! She has already fixed up a mini-break in Durham in April and is talking about a cruise! I need to find a couple of stray cats quickly.
Lot to be said for Durham. Centre of the city is one of the finer places in U.K.
Strangely, the thing I most recall about Durham is an aspect of some of the lanes in its surrounding countryside. I had cycled up there from Bedford in 1984 to do a couple of weeks work, passing through York on the Sunday before its cathedral burnt from a lightning strike. On a half day off I did about 40 odd miles around part of Durham's surrounding countryside. Once or twice I came upon a convergence of five or six(?) small lanes in a star pattern in the middle of quite isolated open land. Durham has Roman connections, so maybe there was a temple there. Or what? I've not seen that pattern before or since.
Very impressed. How many miles did you cycle to get there?
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
I would have thought that the great cathedrals (and major churches) were built in the most prosperous areas at the time they were built. The industrial revolution changed that in the UK, what had been quiet backwaters became cities and the location of wealth moved accordingly. The effect was less pronounced in Europe because England industrialised first.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times. However, five or six centuries ago those towns were very wealthy on the back of the wool trade. The same can be said of a lot of our great cathedral cities, they were the centres of an agrarian economy often dating back to pre-Roman times.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
LOL.
Well maybe that wasn't the highest bar to get over.
Much as I am getting very uneasy with her actual policies, would you not say May is proving to be a more talented politician (or salesperson) than Cameron ever was, and certainly moreso than Osborne?
I'd agree with this. Given that she's the one who first had the guts to make the Tories face up to their nasty party image it's a tragedy in retrospect that someone as shallow as Cameron benefited from Howard's patronage to make his way to Downing Street.
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
I would have thought that the great cathedrals (and major churches) were built in the most prosperous areas at the time they were built. The industrial revolution changed that in the UK, what had been quiet backwaters became cities and the location of wealth moved accordingly. The effect was less pronounced in Europe because England industrialised first.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times. However, five or six centuries ago those towns were very wealthy on the back of the wool trade. The same can be said of a lot of our great cathedral cities, they were the centres of an agrarian economy often dating back to pre-Roman times.
I don't think it soley that populations have dropped, Churches were often built larger than needed. Partly it was civic boosterism, to outshine the neighbours, partly as a form of outdoor relief for the parish poor. A lot of British churches were underfilled in their heyday and a burden on their parish.
I think the same goes for other countries too. I visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul last year, and even on a Friday there were no more than a couple of dozen praying.
Fair go, Doc. It is not so much that populations have dropped as the wealth in the area that has gone down. Please remember that in pre-reformation England giving money/land to the church was seen as a way of quite literally buying "grace" and chantry chapels with attendant priests were a way of reducing one's time in purgatory. So churches in wealthy areas were made bigger and expanded over time as the wealthy residents "paid their way".
With the reformation all that was swept away and then, a couple of centuries later came the industrial revolution, which shifted wealth away from the old cities and into the new ones. Who now, for example, thinks of Winchester as a major city? Yet it was for more than a thousand years one of England's most important centres.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
It would have been a 10-15 point Leave win without Mair
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out.
Try going and reading what Cummings actually wrote. He said there were three key issues combined that contributed to the win. The £350/NHS was one of them.
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
All things considered it was a fluke that relied on an unscrupulous Leave campaign, an incompetent Remain campaign and a series of unrepeatable circumstances.
On the contrary. The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable. The fact that they lost despite these advantages shows their proposition was unsellable, even by the most able politicians of their generation. I cannot conceive of the question ever being that close again.
LOL.
Well maybe that wasn't the highest bar to get over.
Much as I am getting very uneasy with her actual policies, would you not say May is proving to be a more talented politician (or salesperson) than Cameron ever was, and certainly moreso than Osborne?
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out.
And none of these were advantageous.
You can't polish a turd can you (unless it is fossilised, apparently).
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They were trying to polish a turd.
Never adopting the Euro and opting out of ever closer union was an unattractive proposition indeed. I am glad it was rejected so that it can once again become a legitimate option for our future.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out.
And none of these were advantageous.
You can't polish a turd can you (unless it is fossilised, apparently).
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They were trying to polish a turd.
Never adopting the Euro and opting out of ever closer union was an unattractive proposition indeed. I am glad it was rejected so that it can once again become a legitimate option for our future.
LOL. You keep up your quixotic tilting at windmills as much as you like William. The rest of us have already moved on. The UK will never join the Euro - indeed they will never rejoin the EU. For your own peace of mind you are just going to have to accept it.
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They were trying to polish a turd.
Never adopting the Euro and opting out of ever closer union was an unattractive proposition indeed. I am glad it was rejected so that it can once again become a legitimate option for our future.
LOL. You keep up your quixotic tilting at windmills as much as you like William. The rest of us have already moved on. The UK will never join the Euro - indeed they will never rejoin the EU. For your own peace of mind you are just going to have to accept it.
The Euro is already established on these British Isles. The rest is just salami slicing.
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They were trying to polish a turd.
Never adopting the Euro and opting out of ever closer union was an unattractive proposition indeed. I am glad it was rejected so that it can once again become a legitimate option for our future.
Yeah, but you and whose army?
Sorry, William, it's hard not to respect you as you are genuinely sincere and open with your eurofederalism but this will be considered a rather eccentric view in the UK in future.
Remain had no real answer to the specific issue of immigration.
That's very different from saying Remain had no advantage whatsoever: in fact, the advantages it had were overwhelming.
They had no advantage over "Turkey joining the EU' or "£350m for the NHS"
If "the advantages were overwhelming" we would not be having this discussion.
In the post-truth World of Trump, I am amazed anyone can still be claiming that remain had an advantage over a campaign of "alternative facts".
Are you upset that Remain's 'alternative facts' weren't believed ?
' This time last year, we said we would listen to people's concerns and get immigration under control.
Today I can confidently say that we are getting there.
If we take the steps set out today, and deal with all the different avenues of migration, legal and illegal, then levels of immigration can return to where they were in the 1980s and 90s, a time when immigration was not a front rank political issue.
And I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade.
Yes, Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution.
But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage.
No ifs. No buts.
That's a promise we made to the British people. And it's a promise we are keeping. '
The advantages that remain had were immense and are unrepeatable.
History shows that remain had no advantage whatsoever. Hence the result.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
They set the agenda by negotiating the deal. They had the government and used it ruthlessly not just in funding their brochure but in various government announcements. They had a dominant and successful PM. They had the support of all the mainstream parties. And nearly all the unions. And the electronic media. They had Nigel Farage and assorted nutters on the other side. They had the CBI and most of industry that spoke out. There really are no excuses. They should have won easily and would have done so if their case hung together at all.
They were trying to polish a turd.
Never adopting the Euro and opting out of ever closer union was an unattractive proposition indeed. I am glad it was rejected so that it can once again become a legitimate option for our future.
LOL. You keep up your quixotic tilting at windmills as much as you like William. The rest of us have already moved on. The UK will never join the Euro - indeed they will never rejoin the EU. For your own peace of mind you are just going to have to accept it.
The Euro is already established on these British Isles. The rest is just salami slicing.
We are as likely to join the Dollar as we are the Euro. Of course the Euro may well not be around long enough for us to join it even if we wanted to.
Remain had no real answer to the specific issue of immigration.
That's very different from saying Remain had no advantage whatsoever: in fact, the advantages it had were overwhelming.
They had no advantage over "Turkey joining the EU' or "£350m for the NHS"
If "the advantages were overwhelming" we would not be having this discussion.
In the post-truth World of Trump, I am amazed anyone can still be claiming that remain had an advantage over a campaign of "alternative facts".
The advantages were overwhelming, Scotty. The government, Lab, Lib, Plaid, SNP and two greenie parties on one side, just Ukip on the other and the tories neutral. The advantages were thrown away by the arrogance, laziness and complacency of people like David Cameron, and you. It was yours to lose. Oh and "Turkey joining the EU" was something which was going to happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union The single most striking bit of post truthiness I have ever seen, is people like you pretending that every single word of that is fiction, but it isn't. It is what was going to happen, not something which everyone cunningly conspired to pretend would happen, when actually it wouldn't.
The single most striking bit of post truthiness I have ever seen, is people like you pretending that every single word of that is fiction, but it isn't. It is what was going to happen, not something which everyone cunningly conspired to pretend would happen, when actually it wouldn't.
@JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.
All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
Mr L
good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
W
However, the big downside is that Herself is talking about using this feline interregnum as a chance for us to going travelling. Together! She has already fixed up a mini-break in Durham in April and is talking about a cruise! I need to find a couple of stray cats quickly.
Lot to be said for Durham. Centre of the city is one of the finer places in U.K.
Strangely, the thing I most recall about Durham is an aspect of some of the lanes in its surrounding countryside. I had cycled up there from Bedford in 1984 to do a couple of weeks work, passing through York on the Sunday before its cathedral burnt from a lightning strike. On a half day off I did about 40 odd miles around part of Durham's surrounding countryside. Once or twice I came upon a convergence of five or six(?) small lanes in a star pattern in the middle of quite isolated open land. Durham has Roman connections, so maybe there was a temple there. Or what? I've not seen that pattern before or since.
Very impressed. How many miles did you cycle to get there?
I think it's about 240 miles from Bedford. Although it wasn't necessary I stayed overnight in York so I could have a walk around town and its wall, etc. I charged expenses of two pence per mile, mainly for food. They paid it instantly.
The ongoing problem with Corbyn is that there is no strategy. As people point out here repeatedly, his support for triggering Article 50 and leaving the EU is undermined by the positions he has taken on issues of importance to labour voters, like his wholehearted endorsement of freedom of movement, unlimited immigration etc, IRA terrorists etc. With this Article 50 thing, he is also losing the three quidders, so we are truly fucked.
I'd been thinking about going up to Stoke to campaign for a few days, its a really important battle for the labour party and to keep UKIP at bay. My heart says I should, but then I keep returning to the position that unless the labour party can move Corbyn on then it simply has no hope. And what - other than the loss of these safe seats to the tories and UKIP - is going to bring people in the party to their senses?
Correct. Anyone who hopes for the survival of the Labour Party should pray for two defeats in the by-elections. Sadly with the utterly inept UKIP as the opponent in one seat, it looks a tall order.
Why doesn't the nation just realign on Leave/Remain lines? We'll have Greater London, the Cotswolds, all of Scotland, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle. Leave can have Doncaster and the rest.
Because the nice Remain voting areas wouldn't want you.
I don't grasp this obsession you have with AV voting areas. I couldn't give a toss about AV. It's the one election where I cannot even remember which way I voted.
Why doesn't the nation just realign on Leave/Remain lines? We'll have Greater London, the Cotswolds, all of Scotland, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle. Leave can have Doncaster and the rest.
That's an inspired idea.
Works for me....
Me too, count Leicester in, as well as Norwich, Cambridge and Bristol.
Remainia is rather nice. Leicester is a bit of a dull city but it does house the most surprising football club in the world.
Andrew Cooper certainly doesn't emerge with honours in Tim Shipman's riveting 'All Out War'.
A superb book.
Very much so but I had to rush the last few chapters to avoid being overdue at the Library (and not able to renew!). Have never taken much to Steve Baker MP and the book confirmed the existing prejudice.
The single most striking bit of post truthiness I have ever seen, is people like you pretending that every single word of that is fiction, but it isn't. It is what was going to happen, not something which everyone cunningly conspired to pretend would happen, when actually it wouldn't.
Of all Cameron's 'gaylording ponceyboots' failings, not simply saying, "In the present circumstance I would veto Turkey's accession," is possibly the worst. It's not as if he would have been going beyond what other European leaders had said, and given the lack of any progress towards the accession criteria could hardly have been a controversial position.
No, just repeating that gets you nowhere. Accession talks were under way until last November. Accession talks are by their nature intended to lead to accession.
Of all Cameron's 'gaylording ponceyboots' failings, not simply saying, "In the present circumstance I would veto Turkey's accession," is possibly the worst. It's not as if he would have been going beyond what other European leaders had said, and given the lack of any progress towards the accession criteria could hardly have been a controversial position.
No, just repeating that gets you nowhere. Accession talks were under way until last November. Accession talks are by their nature intended to lead to accession.
In the case of Turkey last year, accession talks were by their nature intended to put diplomatic pressure on Erdogan, however forlorn that may have been.
Andrew Cooper certainly doesn't emerge with honours in Tim Shipman's riveting 'All Out War'.
A superb book.
Very much so but I had to rush the last few chapters to avoid being overdue at the Library (and not able to renew!). Have never taken much to Steve Baker MP and the book confirmed the existing prejudice.
Had Remain won, I had heard he planned to become the embodiment of the shitty disloyalty of that is David Davis meets Mark Reckless.
IANAL, but so far the judges do not seem to be impressed with the Government lawyer
To be fair this is the worst time to be a government lawyer, most of the top dogs left when Obama left office, and Trump's team haven't all been confirmed.
@Hegemommy: Let's be clear here that the Department of Justice is setting up the argument that states can't challenge the president & neither can courts
Comments
On a half day off I did about 40 odd miles around part of Durham's surrounding countryside. Once or twice I came upon a convergence of five or six(?) small lanes in a star pattern in the middle of quite isolated open land. Durham has Roman connections, so maybe there was a temple there. Or what? I've not seen that pattern before or since.
Geography and geology are too - the big cities are based either on coalfields or ports.
But thinking of European cathedrals which are famous - Cologne, Barcelona, Milan, Florence, Venice - there does seem to be a higher number in big cities. Perhaps because big cities formed earlier in Europe or that the big cities of today are the same as those in the Middle Ages.
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/829055870814322690
We covered this all when Cummings wrote it in his blog 2 weeks ago.
I could vote for him as my MP even if I disagreed with a fair amount of his views because I genuinely believe everything he does he does for the best for his constituents.
Edit: Oh and Surbiton continues to prove yet again what a complete and utter tosser he is.
Go to Suffolk for example, there are quite small towns with magnificent churches far too big for any population in recent times. However, five or six centuries ago those towns were very wealthy on the back of the wool trade. The same can be said of a lot of our great cathedral cities, they were the centres of an agrarian economy often dating back to pre-Roman times.
If you have time perhaps you might care to take a look at the latest ICM tables.
A few commentators have expressed doubts about the adjustments made to take account of Don't Knows and Total Refusals. Personally I think it rather dangerous to assume that because those groups appear to have split substantially in the Tories' favour in 2015 that such a pattern is likely to be permanent and on going.
I am also puzzled by the Net England data in their tables. This does seem to match the Totals of the English Regions listed.
I think the same goes for other countries too. I visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul last year, and even on a Friday there were no more than a couple of dozen praying.
Leave pitched "control of immigration"
Remain had no advantage whatsoever in countering that.
That doesn't require talent. Or conviction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare,_Suffolk
Churches built in the 14th and 15th centuries are often based upon wool money.
With the reformation all that was swept away and then, a couple of centuries later came the industrial revolution, which shifted wealth away from the old cities and into the new ones. Who now, for example, thinks of Winchester as a major city? Yet it was for more than a thousand years one of England's most important centres.
I thought Remain would squeak it but even i laughed (in real time) at his eve of poll analysis when it was published on polling day.
http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/10/24/ft-factcheck-do-we-use-more-land-for-golf-courses-than-we-do-for-homes/
That's very different from saying Remain had no advantage whatsoever: in fact, the advantages it had were overwhelming.
If "the advantages were overwhelming" we would not be having this discussion.
In the post-truth World of Trump, I am amazed anyone can still be claiming that remain had an advantage over a campaign of "alternative facts".
Idiotic. She'll live to regret that.
Sorry, William, it's hard not to respect you as you are genuinely sincere and open with your eurofederalism but this will be considered a rather eccentric view in the UK in future.
The fact that Leave won does not mean Remain did not have overwhelming advantages politically and economically.
The polling two months before the vote showed that, yet alone nine months before when it was looking like a 65:35 drubbing for Leave.
' This time last year, we said we would listen to people's concerns and get immigration under control.
Today I can confidently say that we are getting there.
If we take the steps set out today, and deal with all the different avenues of migration, legal and illegal, then levels of immigration can return to where they were in the 1980s and 90s, a time when immigration was not a front rank political issue.
And I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade.
Yes, Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution.
But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage.
No ifs. No buts.
That's a promise we made to the British people. And it's a promise we are keeping. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13083781
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJRtDPOjQ7g
Remain had no advantages against the leave campaign.
"We have had enough of experts", ruled out many of the traditional "advantages"
And truth had no advantage over alternative facts.
The single most striking bit of post truthiness I have ever seen, is people like you pretending that every single word of that is fiction, but it isn't. It is what was going to happen, not something which everyone cunningly conspired to pretend would happen, when actually it wouldn't.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/every-insult-the-right-uses-to-troll-liberals-explained
Won't mean much to most of you, but Richard Hatch has died.
He was Apollo in the original Battlestar Galactica and Tom Zarek in the re-imaged series.
https://twitter.com/reuters/status/829104201821208576
The appeal court keeps asking the lawyer for Trump if he has any evidence to support their claim...
Err, none...
So were the men who beheaded Lee Rigby
So was Mohamed Emwazi
Good old immigration
Let's just do nothing
Thought this may of interest some, given that Trudeau has become a topic of conversation every now and again on this site.