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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB in lead with ICM amongst REMAIN voters – more poll numbers

SystemSystem Posts: 11,698
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB in lead with ICM amongst REMAIN voters – more poll numbers that make make Corbyn’s A50 strategy look dumb

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  • Options
    Gosh
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    wtf is a discussion ID?
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,299
    edited February 2017
    Brexit Division on Chris Leslie amendment:

    Govt won by 33.

    Minimum 5 Con MPs voting against Govt:

    Neill
    Soubry
    Clarke
    Sandbach
    Tyrie

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38879557
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195
    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017
    The Tories are only two behind among remainers????

    Corbyn's 'strategy' recognises that the vote cannot be ignored and that a large chunk of the 21% sitting in UKIP Leave were Labour less than a generation ago.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,993
    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,299
    edited February 2017
    ICM/Guardian:

    CON 42 (=)
    LAB 27 (+1)
    LD 10 (=)
    UKIP 12 (-1)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 5 (+1)

    Dates 3rd-5th Feb
    N=1,984

    Implies slightly more Remain than Leave voters overall - ie Party numbers just on Remain side of the average of the two.
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    MikeL said:

    ICM/Guardian:

    CON 42 (=)
    LAB 27 (+1)
    LD 10 (=)
    UKIP 12 (-1)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 5 (+1)

    Dates 3rd-5th Feb
    N=1,984

    Implies more Remain than Leave voters overall.

    5...4...3...2....1.....Justin tells us its not bad news for Labour.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    MikeL said:

    ICM/Guardian:

    CON 42 (=)
    LAB 27 (+1)
    LD 10 (=)
    UKIP 12 (-1)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 5 (+1)

    Dates 3rd-5th Feb
    N=1,984

    Implies more Remain than Leave voters overall.

    Yes, by a 52/48 result it would be Con 43, Lab 25.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
    If he was gay, and wanted to hide it, marrying his former school teacher would seem like an odd way to go about it.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    Broken sleazy Brexit on the slide.
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    Taps mic...sniff sniff.... WRONG Corbynism sweeping the nation!
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    FPT: Mr. T, not heard that one myself, but I have heard 'quite unique'.

    *sighs*

    One that annoys me which I sometimes do myself is saying 'fire arrows'. Arrows are loosed or released or shot, but there's no fire involved.

    On-topic: you could reach the opposite conclusion. Labour have more ground to make up amongst Leave voters.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    Do you live in a Tory-Labour marginal? If you don't, would it make a difference if you did?
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,993
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    Do you live in a Tory-Labour marginal? If you don't, would it make a difference if you did?
    I do actually: Ealing Central and Acton. Lab held by 254 votes as far as I can recall.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
    If he was gay, and wanted to hide it, marrying his former school teacher would seem like an odd way to go about it.
    Doesnt make any sense to me either. Now he has put it front and centre in such forthright terms it better be true or the French press are going to hang him out to dry!

    In a voter survey published on Tuesday, 65 percent of respondents polled after he made his comments said they still wanted him replaced as candidate of the center-right

    Doesn't suggest he is excessively popular either.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    So much for the Lib Dems big chance then.

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    Am I being really thick here...this supposed government concession...haven't the government always said there would be a vote on the final deal?
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    MikeL said:

    ICM/Guardian:

    CON 42 (=)
    LAB 27 (+1)
    LD 10 (=)
    UKIP 12 (-1)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 5 (+1)

    Dates 3rd-5th Feb
    N=1,984

    Implies slightly more Remain than Leave voters overall - ie Party numbers just on Remain side of the average of the two.

    It's something like a 3% swing from Left to Right.

    Con+UKIP now 54 - was around 51 in 2015.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    One that annoys me which I sometimes do myself is saying 'fire arrows'. Arrows are loosed or released or shot, but there's no fire involved.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTd_0FRAwOQ

  • Options

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
    Isn't marital infidelity pretty much a requirement to be an eligible candidate in France?
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    Mr. Indigo, ha, I thought that video might arrive (that or the flaming katana bren gun...). Lindy Beige has excellent videos.

    I'm pretty relaxed about most technical terminology (chainmail really should just be mail, but it doesn't bother me), but firing arrows does.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
    If he was gay, and wanted to hide it, marrying his former school teacher would seem like an odd way to go about it.
    Wasn't he in his teens, when they first started going out together? That would suggest a pretty strong relationship.
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Angela Eagle asking for 'official proper Treasury forecasts' rather than other peoples 'guesses' of the outcome of Brexit.

    We got the Treasury's official forecast before the poll. It was significantly worse than an honest guess.
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    wtf is a discussion ID?

    I got the same when I tried to post first before anyone else had posted. I think it is a mean trick devised by the moderators to make sure they get to say first, first. :)
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    chestnut said:

    MikeL said:

    ICM/Guardian:

    CON 42 (=)
    LAB 27 (+1)
    LD 10 (=)
    UKIP 12 (-1)
    GRN 4 (-1)
    SNP 5 (+1)

    Dates 3rd-5th Feb
    N=1,984

    Implies slightly more Remain than Leave voters overall - ie Party numbers just on Remain side of the average of the two.

    It's something like a 3% swing from Left to Right.

    Con+UKIP now 54 - was around 51 in 2015.
    And what a turnaround from Blair's glory years.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    On topic: as if we needed any more evidence!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896
    On topic, Corbyn's A50 strategy makes sense if he wants to increase his party's support from 27%.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    Do you live in a Tory-Labour marginal? If you don't, would it make a difference if you did?
    I do actually: Ealing Central and Acton. Lab held by 254 votes as far as I can recall.
    Interesting, thank you. The Tories really could clean up at the next election.
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    MikeL said:

    Brexit Division on Chris Leslie amendment:

    Govt won by 33.

    Minimum 5 Con MPs voting against Govt:

    Neill
    Soubry
    Clarke
    Sandbach
    Tyrie

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38879557

    If all the New Bastards had voted against the Government might have lost.

    We're learning that very few Tories are willing to die in a ditch for the EU.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017
    Tables: https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2017_guardian_feb2017_poll1.pdf

    Lib Dems sixth among the current student cohort. "tuition fees" - ahem.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    We know Corbyn is dumb, as I understand it that is a part of his charm, ahem. But focussing on Remainers would be a mistake. They are a diminishing band and will diminish even more when article 50 is actually utilised. Even among remainers there is an acceptance (with some notable exceptions on here) that the result of the referendum needs to be implemented. Corbyn is right to accept this. To do otherwise would be very damaging for the Labour Party.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,299
    edited February 2017
    Does anyone have a link to Commons Division results (other than Hansard which you have to wait hours for) - ie what Faisal Islam tweeted.

    Can't find on Parliament website.
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    dr_spyn said:
    All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.

    Once Brexit is completed - where will all these UKIP working class voters go?

    He's playing the long game instead of chasing the relatively small band of middle class, metropolitans that are obsessed with staying in the EU.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896

    dr_spyn said:
    All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
    I'm about 100 yards outside Kelvin Hopkins' seat, and went to hear him speak during the referendum, and thought he was very good. I distributed about 1,000 leaflets for Labour Leave in Luton.
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    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    sheesh

    Fillon expenses
    Sarkozy suspected fraud
    Hamon Corbyn junior
    Macron closet gay
    Le Pen expenses

    France really has a fantastic choice

    The odd one out is Macron - nothing wrong if he is gay, though I don't know if the French would be bothered.
    the issue isnt the gayness its that hes apparently trying to hide it
    I think that is a non starter. Why should anyone be forced to reveal their sexuality of they don't want to? He is not being accused of a crime. He is not even being accused of something that is morally dubious. Should we claim that Le Pen is hiding something because she has not explicitly stated she is heterosexual?

    Hopefully the French will take a more reasoned view of this.
    Its not that straightforward.

    Macron is married Brigitte Trogneux, his former teacher 20 years his senior. That isn't the problem although it will raise eyebrows in more staid circles. The suggestion is that he has a gay lover his is trying to hush up. It's not the gayness so much as the infidelity, which is exacerbated by the connected denials.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-idUSKBN15M0RK

    France's tightly-contested presidential race sank deeper into smear and sleaze on Tuesday after centrist Emmanuel Macron was forced to deny an extramarital affair and as scandal continued to dog conservative Francois Fillon and his party.

    A slump in support for Fillon after accusations that he used taxpayers' money to pay his wife for work she may not have done has propelled Macron into the top spot in opinion polls.

    Late on Monday, Macron, a centrist former economy minister and ex-banker sought to kill rumors of a gay relationship outside his marriage to Brigitte Trogneux and push his campaign on.
    Brigitte is 24 years Macron's senior , 1953 and 1977.
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    OT. I read that polling as showing precisely the opposite Mike, namely that Labour has lost almost all support amongst Leave voters and has to find a means of turning that around. All the evidence is that the main post-election loss in Labour support has come disproportionately from Leave supporters. That's born out by two demographic splits. Firstly that Labour is now polling no better amongst C2DEs than it is amongst ABC1s, being 15% behind the Conservatives with both groups. Secondly that Labour is no less than 39% behind the Conservatives amongst 65+. (Latest YouGov). Both C2DEs and 65+ elderly are heavily Leave supporting.

    Corbyn's strategy is wrong but not in the way you suggest, Mike. He's right to try and position Labour as a party that can once again appeal to Leave as well as Remain voters, just as the Conservatives have always done and managed to do in the referendum and beyond. But where he's wrong and indeed shows all the political nous of a 4 year old is in thinking he can somehow appeal to Leave voters while simultaneously making statements along the lines that immigration from the EU is not a problem, thus undermining the attempts of Keir Starmer and a host of others to redefine Labour's position on free movement. Until Corbyn moves his position radically on free movement (or is himself moved out) Labour's ability to appeal to most Leave voters will remain stillborn.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896
    chestnut said:

    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.

    Once Brexit is completed - where will all these UKIP working class voters go?

    He's playing the long game instead of chasing the relatively small band of middle class, metropolitans that are obsessed with staying in the EU.
    My guess is they'll split about 35% Con, 25% Lab, 10% Lib Dem, 30% won't vote.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    chestnut said:

    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.

    Once Brexit is completed - where will all these UKIP working class voters go?

    He's playing the long game instead of chasing the relatively small band of middle class, metropolitans that are obsessed with staying in the EU.
    If Labour stays in the hands of the Corbynites then there's no way on Earth that the Labour to Ukip defectors are going back. Even if it doesn't then it's quite possible that most of them are lost to Labour anyway.

    Red Ukip supporters and the Corbyn Far Left might be able to agree on a few areas e.g. throwing money at the NHS, but culturally and on many key planks of policy they are poles apart.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    Chuka Umunna giving it the big red bus in parliament now.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I may be a bit premature but it looks like the art 50 bill will be passed unammended to the Lords. What's the chances of it coming back in the same state?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have a link to Commons Division results (other than Hansard which you have to wait hours for) - ie what Faisal Islam tweeted.

    Can't find on Parliament website.

    It's the CommonsVotes app
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jessicaelgot: Another MP texts; "we've just voted to give ourselves less power to influence the final deal than the European Parliament #takebackcontrol"
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    I do wonder how many UKIP/Leave voters of today voted for Michael Foot back in the early 1980s.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Osborne broke a 3 line whip to miss tonight's vote :smile:
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JGForsyth: A clean bill out of the Commons will strengthen the govt's hand in the Lords. I suspect peers will be more reluctant to amend a clean bill
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Scott_P said:

    Osborne broke a 3 line whip to miss tonight's vote :smile:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,299
    Scott_P said:

    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have a link to Commons Division results (other than Hansard which you have to wait hours for) - ie what Faisal Islam tweeted.

    Can't find on Parliament website.

    It's the CommonsVotes app
    Ah OK, thanks.

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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited February 2017
    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    chestnut said:

    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.

    Once Brexit is completed - where will all these UKIP working class voters go?

    He's playing the long game instead of chasing the relatively small band of middle class, metropolitans that are obsessed with staying in the EU.
    If Labour stays in the hands of the Corbynites then there's no way on Earth that the Labour to Ukip defectors are going back. Even if it doesn't then it's quite possible that most of them are lost to Labour anyway.

    Red Ukip supporters and the Corbyn Far Left might be able to agree on a few areas e.g. throwing money at the NHS, but culturally and on many key planks of policy they are poles apart.
    Corbyn's position on open borders means Labour will get basically zero voters back from UKIP, its antithetical to the whole reason they left Labour in the first place.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,966
    Off topic: This divorce ruling is utterly astounding - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-38891663
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited February 2017

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    I hope you support economic liberalism Thomas. We don't want the Lib Dems turned into Labour Lite or Socialism Lite.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017

    Until Corbyn moves his position radically on free movement (or is himself moved out) Labour's ability to appeal to most Leave voters will remain stillborn.

    The Tories have to deliver on this before 2020 so he could conceivably just leave them to do what is necessary and then define any 2020 GE campaign around workers' rights, the NHS, trade deals with Trump.

    The Tories have to kill immigration and free movement as an issue.

    I'm increasingly of the view that Corbyn needs May and Ruth Davidson to succeed to get Labour back in the game whilst he is there.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic: This divorce ruling is utterly astounding - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-38891663

    Absolutely. I wonder why he didn't apply for a clean break at the time, did they not exist ?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    The word forecast should be replaced with the word assumption in all political discussion.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    It's embarrassing.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    The word forecast should be replaced with the word assumption in all political discussion.

    why ?

    assumptions are the inputs to a forecast
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    The word forecast should be replaced with the word assumption in all political discussion.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_wild-ass_guess
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,993

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    I hope you support economic liberalism Thomas. We don't want the Lib Dems turned into Labour Lite or Socialism Lite.
    Rational pragmatism is what I favour. And thanks for the welcome, btw.
  • Options

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116

    The word forecast should be replaced with the word assumption in all political discussion.

    why ?

    assumptions are the inputs to a forecast
    And are therefore the most materially important factor.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,966

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    I hope you support economic liberalism Thomas. We don't want the Lib Dems turned into Labour Lite or Socialism Lite.
    Rational pragmatism is what I favour. And thanks for the welcome, btw.
    And the best part is you can keep fit delivering Focus leaflets :>
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited February 2017

    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
    Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.

    All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy

    I have to go there in March

    Really? I hadn't heard that...
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    Scott_P said:

    Osborne broke a 3 line whip to miss tonight's vote :smile:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere
    Good one

    though truth is he's not a minister.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
    except of course events will just wipe out all the nerdy assumptions people make.

    a 2004 forecast for this year would be full of frothy "new economy" crap and ignore the great recession, Brexit and Trump

    Why our forecast of 13 years hence should be more accurate eludes me.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    chestnut said:

    Corbyn's strategy makes perfect sense for a leader trying to hold the constituent parts of Labour's fragmented support base together - but this may transpire to be a futile exercise in the long run.

    I continue to maintain that Labour is now, effectively, a cluster of several smaller parties, living within - and fighting for control over - one sickly body.

    Once Brexit is completed - where will all these UKIP working class voters go?

    He's playing the long game instead of chasing the relatively small band of middle class, metropolitans that are obsessed with staying in the EU.
    If Labour stays in the hands of the Corbynites then there's no way on Earth that the Labour to Ukip defectors are going back. Even if it doesn't then it's quite possible that most of them are lost to Labour anyway.

    Red Ukip supporters and the Corbyn Far Left might be able to agree on a few areas e.g. throwing money at the NHS, but culturally and on many key planks of policy they are poles apart.
    Corbyn's position on open borders means Labour will get basically zero voters back from UKIP, its antithetical to the whole reason they left Labour in the first place.
    And you can add to that list the following issues on which Lab to Ukip defectors and the Corbynites would be liable to disagree:

    Nuclear deterrence
    Support for the armed forces
    Social security entitlements
    Crime and public order
    Grammar schools
    Patriotism
    English votes for English laws
    Overseas aid
    Human rights

    As I said, on most issues other than NHS worship these two groups almost inhabit different planets.
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    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
    except of course events will just wipe out all the nerdy assumptions people make.

    a 2004 forecast for this year would be full of frothy "new economy" crap and ignore the great recession, Brexit and Trump

    Why our forecast of 13 years hence should be more accurate eludes me.
    quite my point, Alan. 3% is noise, we'll never feel the effect of it.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
    Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.

    All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
    Mr L

    good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    OT. I read that polling as showing precisely the opposite Mike, namely that Labour has lost almost all support amongst Leave voters and has to find a means of turning that around. All the evidence is that the main post-election loss in Labour support has come disproportionately from Leave supporters. That's born out by two demographic splits. Firstly that Labour is now polling no better amongst C2DEs than it is amongst ABC1s, being 15% behind the Conservatives with both groups. Secondly that Labour is no less than 39% behind the Conservatives amongst 65+. (Latest YouGov). Both C2DEs and 65+ elderly are heavily Leave supporting.

    Corbyn's strategy is wrong but not in the way you suggest, Mike. He's right to try and position Labour as a party that can once again appeal to Leave as well as Remain voters, just as the Conservatives have always done and managed to do in the referendum and beyond. But where he's wrong and indeed shows all the political nous of a 4 year old is in thinking he can somehow appeal to Leave voters while simultaneously making statements along the lines that immigration from the EU is not a problem, thus undermining the attempts of Keir Starmer and a host of others to redefine Labour's position on free movement. Until Corbyn moves his position radically on free movement (or is himself moved out) Labour's ability to appeal to most Leave voters will remain stillborn.

    Yes - I also read it like that... If his vote with remainers had utterly collapsed that would hardly be an endorsement of current strategy.
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    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
    Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.

    All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
    Brussels is a dump (save for an EU-related bubble where shaving razors are €300), other places less so.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,884
    Jezza has been for LEAVE for 40 years!

    And he's won two landslide victories to to become/stay Lab leader.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    Blocking Facebook at work would add more to the economy than that.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    glw said:

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    Blocking Facebook at work would add more to the economy than that.
    getting rid of Osborne closed that gap in one fell swoop
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    OT. I read that polling as showing precisely the opposite Mike, namely that Labour has lost almost all support amongst Leave voters and has to find a means of turning that around. All the evidence is that the main post-election loss in Labour support has come disproportionately from Leave supporters. That's born out by two demographic splits. Firstly that Labour is now polling no better amongst C2DEs than it is amongst ABC1s, being 15% behind the Conservatives with both groups. Secondly that Labour is no less than 39% behind the Conservatives amongst 65+. (Latest YouGov). Both C2DEs and 65+ elderly are heavily Leave supporting.

    Corbyn's strategy is wrong but not in the way you suggest, Mike. He's right to try and position Labour as a party that can once again appeal to Leave as well as Remain voters, just as the Conservatives have always done and managed to do in the referendum and beyond. But where he's wrong and indeed shows all the political nous of a 4 year old is in thinking he can somehow appeal to Leave voters while simultaneously making statements along the lines that immigration from the EU is not a problem, thus undermining the attempts of Keir Starmer and a host of others to redefine Labour's position on free movement. Until Corbyn moves his position radically on free movement (or is himself moved out) Labour's ability to appeal to most Leave voters will remain stillborn.

    Yes - I also read it like that... If his vote with remainers had utterly collapsed that would hardly be an endorsement of current strategy.
    I think it's always the case with poor leadership that every new policy effort appears to be losing more voters than it adds; everything seems like a zero-sum game.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,768

    FPT: Mr. T, not heard that one myself, but I have heard 'quite unique'.

    *sighs*

    One that annoys me which I sometimes do myself is saying 'fire arrows'. Arrows are loosed or released or shot, but there's no fire involved.

    What's wrong with 'quite unique' ?
    You'd be perfectly in order to describe one of two surviving examples of a Ming vase as 'not quite unique', and were you to smash one, the survivor would then be 'quite unique'.
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    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Is it dumb? The remainers have nowhere else to go.

    I think quite a few of them are going to the LDs (me included, so long as Corbyn is leader).
    I hope you support economic liberalism Thomas. We don't want the Lib Dems turned into Labour Lite or Socialism Lite.
    Rational pragmatism is what I favour. And thanks for the welcome, btw.
    And the best part is you can keep fit delivering Focus leaflets :>

    And the party colour is that of Hi-Vis jackets so you will be safe delivering leaflets at night. :)
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    Gove in full Vote Leave mode in the Commons.

    He's like a catalyst for winding up the Labour benches, and seems to be thoroughly enjoying himself.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Guardian Poll with changes to last online VI poll before the referendum

    Con 42 (+8)
    Lab 27 (-5)
    UKIP 12 (-5)
    LD 10 (+3)
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
    Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.

    All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
    Mr L

    good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
    Wotcha, Mr. Brooke. Got the decorators in, which makes life bloody grizzly and the cat died last month so Herself is still in mourning and moping around the house. Oh, and my back is giving me major gip (am having to use a stick on my morning walk). On the bright side the local off-licence is doing a deal, a litre of The Grouse for seventeen quid, so at least the pain-killer is cheap, and my son hasn't asked for money for a good three weeks. On the whole, mustn't grumble,
  • Options

    Gove in full Vote Leave mode in the Commons.

    He's like a catalyst for winding up the Labour benches, and seems to be thoroughly enjoying himself.

    Not sure "it'll wind up the lefties" is such a great reason for leaving the Single Market.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,966

    Scott_P said:

    probably enjoying a lash of the whip elsewhere

    @JasonGroves1: George Osborne missed tonight's Brexit vote despite a three-line whip. Giving a speech on Brexit in Antwerp apparently...
    Belgium - famous for sexual deviancy
    Also chocolate and beer. Not to mention the cheapest cigars in Western Europe, inventing mayonnaise with chips and being able to run reasonably successfully without an elected government.

    All told Belgium has some good things going for it. Shame the place is such a dump.
    Mr L

    good evening, hope 2017 is treating you well
    Wotcha, Mr. Brooke. Got the decorators in, which makes life bloody grizzly and the cat died last month so Herself is still in mourning and moping around the house. Oh, and my back is giving me major gip (am having to use a stick on my morning walk). On the bright side the local off-licence is doing a deal, a litre of The Grouse for seventeen quid, so at least the pain-killer is cheap, and my son hasn't asked for money for a good three weeks. On the whole, mustn't grumble,
    Oh :(

    Sad to hear about your kitty ;[
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116

    Gove in full Vote Leave mode in the Commons.

    He's like a catalyst for winding up the Labour benches, and seems to be thoroughly enjoying himself.

    Gove is the best argument for banning journalists from standing for parliament. The second best argument is Boris Johnson.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
    except of course events will just wipe out all the nerdy assumptions people make.

    a 2004 forecast for this year would be full of frothy "new economy" crap and ignore the great recession, Brexit and Trump

    Why our forecast of 13 years hence should be more accurate eludes me.
    quite my point, Alan. 3% is noise, we'll never feel the effect of it.
    And my point in posting the forecast
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    except of course events will just wipe out all the nerdy assumptions people make.

    a 2004 forecast for this year would be full of frothy "new economy" crap and ignore the great recession, Brexit and Trump

    Why our forecast of 13 years hence should be more accurate eludes me.

    I remember how before the dot.coms imploded you used to get all sorts of mad Dow and Nasdaq forecasts, the people making them must have been huffing paint.
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    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
    except of course events will just wipe out all the nerdy assumptions people make.

    a 2004 forecast for this year would be full of frothy "new economy" crap and ignore the great recession, Brexit and Trump

    Why our forecast of 13 years hence should be more accurate eludes me.
    quite my point, Alan. 3% is noise, we'll never feel the effect of it.
    And my point in posting the forecast
    I'll have you know I care deeply about my 40p!

    I'm in agreement of course.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,966

    Gove in full Vote Leave mode in the Commons.

    He's like a catalyst for winding up the Labour benches, and seems to be thoroughly enjoying himself.

    Not sure "it'll wind up the lefties" is such a great reason for leaving the Single Market.

    I'm not sure why May gave up that particular position pre-negotiation. She could have at least used it as a throw away tool to avoid some sort of carry on or lump sum payment to the EU !
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    dr_spyn said:
    All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
    Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited February 2017

    Gove in full Vote Leave mode in the Commons.

    He's like a catalyst for winding up the Labour benches, and seems to be thoroughly enjoying himself.

    Not sure "it'll wind up the lefties" is such a great reason for leaving the Single Market.

    does rubbing the lefts nose in our own culture sound better ?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    surbiton said:

    dr_spyn said:
    All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
    Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?
    Unspoofable :D
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    surbiton said:

    dr_spyn said:
    All long time Eurosceptics and members of the Labour Safeguards group.
    Why the fuck do they not join the Tories as they are just that ?

    I don't know about the others, but I genuinely don't know why Kate Hoey is in the Labour party.

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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    chestnut said:

    Guardian Poll with changes to last online VI poll before the referendum

    Con 42 (+8)
    Lab 27 (-5)
    UKIP 12 (-5)
    LD 10 (+3)

    That's quite something, so against all prevailing wisdom the Europe issue is working out very nicely for the Tories.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    MTimT said:

    BBC story about the Brexit vote holds this absolute nugget:

    "The UK's economy could be 3% smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain, according to forecasts in the IFS's annual Green Budget."

    For there to be only a 3% difference 13 years down the road, how small does the fall in annual GDP growth have to be? 1.5% instead of 1.7%.

    That is the economic armageddon we are supposed to dread. A fall in annual GDP GROWTH of 2 thousandths of the economy.

    That is the equivalent of a person on 40k pa getting annual raises of 40 pence less per week than would otherwise be the case.

    I was amazed Carney was still pumping the slower growth theme given how poor his forecasts have been to date. I would have thought he would want to let it gently disappear from view.
    3% by 2030 places Brexit alongside many other policy developments in terms of impact on GDP.
    Doing something sensible on housing and the Green Belt would swamp any Brexit impact, and raise living standards for the JAMs ...
This discussion has been closed.