The UK would dearly love to be in the single market but won't accept free movement of labour.
The EU would dearly love the UK to be in the single market but can't compromise on free movement of labour.
If Scotland is prepared to accept free movement of labour then there is no reason why they shouldn't stay in. And if the UK is going to introduce their labour restrictions at the point of employment (ie a green card system) as May has indicated then there is no reason why Scotland shouldn't pursue a different position and become very prosperous.
Also there is already a working example in Europe of a country within the single marketplace in a customs and currency union with a country which is not. Name that country!
The Remain camp look like those sad souls thinking they could get the Electoral College to stop Trump being elected. Especially when four Electors deserted Hillary.
Time's Arrow will not be reversed. Get over it. Have a mince pie. Raise a glass. Sing Auld Lang Syne. Welcome in the New Post-Article 50 Year. Campaign to rejoin the EU. Or animal welfare. Something that might do some good instead.
I accept that faith schools can be very good schools and that religious groups have the resources to open new ones. Neither of those reasons are good enough in my view to overcome the basic flaw that by definition they tend to be the choice of a particular group in society and so widen and reinforce divisions.
Have we forgotten that the state also has the wherewithal to open new schools?
There is no getting away from the fact that encouraging more and bigger faith schools is diametrically opposed to the new-found policy of promoting a less divided society - one which I wholeheartedly support, just not by the laughable means so far proposed.
The problem is that at the moment the state doesn't have the necessary wherewithal to open large numbers of new schools, due to the emasculation of LEAs. That may be a mistaken policy - I've no love for them but even I think Gove went far too far far too fast - but the fact is we are where we are.
A more pertinent question is raised by your second paragraph about size. Again religious schools, even at secondary level, tend to be below average size. While I would agree about 'more and bigger' I'm all for 'more and smaller' schools, which is one area where successive governments have been going catastrophically wrong since 1970 at least.
As I have also said, in my experience faith schools do not foster division and are not there to proselytise. Admittedly that is my quite limited experience and therefore anecdotal.
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
Quite, having lost despite all the threats they then focus only on the worse accusation they can possibly level at the majority ....... Xenophobia/ racism/ islamophobia, Johnny Foreigner hating etc etc. Ignore all other more important reasons as they cannot be described as "disgusting"
Note these views are always attributed to "the English" or "little Englanders" of course while ignoring entirely Wales also voted to leave. Doesn't fit the meme see.....
It's Just the final and desperate tail flips of a landed fish.
Welcome by the way.
Wasn't it only those parts of Wales occupied by the evil English invaders that voted the Leave? The pure Celts remain unsullied.
The UK would dearly love to be in the single market but won't accept free movement of labour.
The EU would dearly love the UK to be in the single market but can't compromise on free movement of labour.
If Scotland is prepared to accept free movement of labour then there is no reason why they shouldn't stay in. And if the UK is going to introduce their labour restrictions at the point of employment (ie a green card system) as May has indicated then there is no reason why Scotland shouldn't pursue a different position and become very prosperous.
Also there is already a working example in Europe of a country within the single marketplace in a customs and currency union with a country which is not. Name that country!
Denmark and Greenland is a wholly different case. For a start, nobody wants to trade with Greenland. For another, it was Greenland's withdrawal from the EEC that asserted its independence, so no treaties had to be changed or new relationships with other EC states forged.
One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."
It's an interesting line of argument from the Brexiteers.
We needed a referendum because the current EU was "not on the original ballot paper"
Now that neither "hard as fuck Brexit" or "soft as shite Brexit" were on the ballot paper, to have another vote would be "undemocratic"
Brexit will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions and factional infighting as the battalions who rallied behind "Farage's Little Englander" banner to win the battle, skirmish over who gets the blame for the salted Earth left behind.
BTW if they need a new figurehead, Dan Hannon is leading that charge...
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
What? The ones arguing what colour and texture Brexit should be?
PolizeiBerlinEinsatz✔@PolizeiBerlin_E Der Generalbundesanwalt hat die Ermittlungen zum #Breitschreidplatz übernommen. Auch die weitere Pressearbeit wird nun von dort erfolgen.
Basically says - the federal prosecutor of Germany representing the federal government has taken charge of investigating the Berlin atrocity. - The Public Prosecutor General has primary jurisdiction in cases of crimes against the state (in particular terrorism, espionage and treason), so this is about as close as you can expect to get from the German authorities admitting that this was a terrorist attack.
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
What? The ones arguing what colour and texture Brexit should be?
Clinton will of course be invited to Inauguration Day as the wife of a living former President.
Given what has happened, will she go? Or will she register a last feeble protest against the indignity Trump and the electorate - including the EC - have heaped on her by staying away?
If she goes, she will (a) presumably look as if she is sucking lemons all the way through the ceremony and (b) appear to be accepting a result that is exceptionally traumatic for her personally.
If she stays away, she looks like a three year old having a tantrum.
For those who like spirited debate - I rather enjoyed two classical liberals discussing a range of subjects, they don't like SJW one bit. Easy to watch in little segments so don't be put off the length.
Witness Emma Rushton told Sky News: "It wasn't an accident. It was going at 40mph through the middle of the market."There was no way it could have come off the road and it showed no signs of slowing down."
"No official details have been released about the man, but Berlin public radio station RBB-Inforadio - citing security sources - reported he is a Pakistani citizen who entered Germany on 31 December, 2015
Police tweeted that they were investigating reports it had been taken from a construction site in Poland but the boss of the firm that owned the truck said it had gone to Berlin loaded with steel beams. Truck owner stated "I can vouch for my driver. I see it that they did something to him and hijacked his truck that was practically in Berlin centre ... It was not my driver. They simply did something to him, God forbid, so it looks."He is my cousin ... I have known this man from birth. I can guarantee, it was not our driver who did it"
One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."
It's almost as if people who voted leave did so for different reasons!
Exactly. And yet that doesn't stop various Leavers opining on what Brexit is definitively supposed to mean (e.g. Raab, BoJo, you..).
In reality whatever Theresa negotiates will be entirely in accordance with the referendum result.
We shall see if Leavers are as chilled when that negotiation includes one issue or other they dislike.
The Remain camp look like those sad souls thinking they could get the Electoral College to stop Trump being elected. Especially when four Electors deserted Hillary.
Time's Arrow will not be reversed. Get over it. Have a mince pie. Raise a glass. Sing Auld Lang Syne. Welcome in the New Post-Article 50 Year. Campaign to rejoin the EU. Or animal welfare. Something that might do some good instead.
We had recounts (but not significantly in New Hampshire) and attempts at faithless electors in the USA.
In Britain we had an attempts to get an 18 million long petition and to flood Last Night of the Proms with EU flags.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
I disagree - goodwill to all men (and women) I say. I know nothing about pension law, but I don't imagine it to be too stimulating. PB gives Alastair Meeks a chance to unleash an alter ego upon the world, and fantasise that his views have some wider significance. It's a social service.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Clinton will of course be invited to Inauguration Day as the wife of a living former President.
Given what has happened, will she go? Or will she register a last feeble protest against the indignity Trump and the electorate - including the EC - have heaped on her by staying away?
If she goes, she will (a) presumably look as if she is sucking lemons all the way through the ceremony and (b) appear to be accepting a result that is exceptionally traumatic for her personally.
If she stays away, she looks like a three year old having a tantrum.
Any markets on this?
I may be misremembering - but wasn't yesterday the anniversary of Bill getting impeached too? If so, Trump's confirmation by the EC was even sweeter.
F1: Bottas all the way down to 1.15 on Betfair. Wish they'd stop faffing about and announce it, but there we are.
I'd guess his title odds will be 6 or 7 (currently 8). If the car's good enough, which is open to question, that's too short for the each way bet. But probably too tight to tip.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
I disagree - goodwill to all men (and women) I say. I know nothing about pension law, but I don't imagine it to be too stimulating. PB gives Alastair Meeks a chance to unleash an alter ego upon the world, and fantasise that his views have some wider significance. It's a social service.
Many suspected that the industrial dispute which has made the Brighton to London line resemble a cattle class troop train from the 1940s was not just about driver only trains. The Sunday Times splashes on details of a heartwarming speech given by Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, one of those bringing chaos to millions, admitting that the unions are co-ordinating action to
"bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government". He declared that "rule No 1" for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to "strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order", telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, "if we all spit together we can drown the bastards"
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
The serious side of all of this is that it would be foolish not to rate the Sturgeon strategy. Her team has been thinking and working on this for five months. UK Ministers sound like they have been thinking about it for five minutes. The point about Switzerland and Liechtenstein is not that they are the same as Scotland and England but that it shows such an arrangement is workable. If it were not for the River Rhine you would not know there was a border between the two.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
I suspect that will be a very widely held view - apart from the obsessives on both ends - who will scream 'betrayal' no matter what - but 'sounds about right' will be good enough for the majority.....
Guardian live:- German media is reporting that the suspect, according to unnamed German authorities, entered the country via the so-called Balkan refugee route earlier this year.
His exact identity is not known, and it is being reported that he has held several identities. Die Welt newspaper is reporting that he came from Pakistan.
I'm sure this must have been discussed before but what logic is there in the Labour position on Brexit?
The government's position is to leave and achieve the best deal. You may disagree but that's broadly in line with the referendum. The Lberal's position is to vote against Art 50 and offer another refendum. It's anti-democratic but based on the view that they are special people, more intelligent and know better. Difficult to defend unless you are part of that special group and don't really like democracy.
But Labour? Their position is to vote for Article 50 but try to attach conditions to the negotiations. If they fail in attaching conditions they must still vote for Art 50. It was all pointless. So, let's assume they succeed. They attach conditions. But what happens if those conditions are not met. We are out of the EU by now, so their posturing was all pointless anyway. Why bother?
I disagree - goodwill to all men (and women) I say. I know nothing about pension law, but I don't imagine it to be too stimulating. PB gives Alastair Meeks a chance to unleash an alter ego upon the world, and fantasise that his views have some wider significance. It's a social service.
Still want to be a fireman when you grow up?
I'm afraid my career as a Russian spy leaves me little time.
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
The serious side of all of this is that it would be foolish not to rate the Sturgeon strategy. Her team has been thinking and working on this for five months. UK Ministers sound like they have been thinking about it for five minutes. The point about Switzerland and Liechtenstein is not that they are the same as Scotland and England but that it shows such an arrangement is workable. If it were not for the River Rhine you would not know there was a border between the two.
Except that the EU won't negotiate with separate parts of one country.
I'm sure this must have been discussed before but what logic is there in the Labour position on Brexit?
The government's position is to leave and achieve the best deal. You may disagree but that's broadly in line with the referendum. The Lberal's position is to vote against Art 50 and offer another refendum. It's anti-democratic but based on the view that they are special people, more intelligent and know better. Difficult to defend unless you are part of that special group and don't really like democracy.
But Labour? Their position is to vote for Article 50 but try to attach conditions to the negotiations. If they fail in attaching conditions they must still vote for Art 50. It was all pointless. So, let's assume they succeed. They attach conditions. But what happens if those conditions are not met. We are out of the EU by now, so their posturing was all pointless anyway. Why bother?
Labour position makes most sense to me. Their position is also to leave and get best deal.
But they think best deal involves staying in single market... Whilst government is a bit unsure on that?
As to whether conditions have an inpact... Probably not much- but with a small tory majority... It definitely would have some influence on TM thinking.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
that's why Junker met Salmond in Brussels last week "Scotland has earned the right to be heard in Europe and listened to in Brussels" - that's Junker speaking not Salmond!
David Davies can't even get vinto the waiting room while no-one even speaks to May!
And we wonder why Remanin voters are not won over when they come out with this stuff.
When Emily Thornberry is seriously touted as the next labour leader because she had one single good day at the despatch box after a lot of help..... Then it is safe to say there is a total lack of credible opposition.
Please do carry on though, feel free and fill your boots. So long as Labour continues to disappear up its own fundament with an unelectable fool as a leader that is perfectly fine by me.
It is the responsibility of the govt to create a plan and unite the country. Banalities like red, white and blue Brexit do nothing to win people over.
The weak state of the opposition is a problem, but another conversation.
She was asked whether she wanted a "black" or a "white" Brexit
Ask a stupid question and you'll get a stupid answer
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
Blimey, unreal!!! You must be such fun!
Man City shouldn't be allowed to be happy with Sundays win, because Arsene Wenger thinks both goals were offside. So City didn't really win.
And we wonder why Remanin voters are not won over when they come out with this stuff.
When Emily Thornberry is seriously touted as the next labour leader because she had one single good day at the despatch box after a lot of help..... Then it is safe to say there is a total lack of credible opposition.
Please do carry on though, feel free and fill your boots. So long as Labour continues to disappear up its own fundament with an unelectable fool as a leader that is perfectly fine by me.
It is the responsibility of the govt to create a plan and unite the country. Banalities like red, white and blue Brexit do nothing to win people over.
The weak state of the opposition is a problem, but another conversation.
She was asked whether she wanted a "black" or a "white" Brexit
Ask a stupid question and you'll get a stupid answer
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
that's why Junker met Salmond in Brussels last week "Scotland has earned the right to be heard in Europe and listened to in Brussels" - that's Junker speaking not Salmond!
David Davies can't even get vinto the waiting room while no-one even speaks to May!
Please don't delude yourself. Salmond is being used to troll the UK. Junker knows it, May knows it, Davis knows it, and I'm sure Salmond knows it too.
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
What? The ones arguing what colour and texture Brexit should be?
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
that's why Junker met Salmond in Brussels last week "Scotland has earned the right to be heard in Europe and listened to in Brussels" - that's Junker speaking not Salmond!
David Davies can't even get vinto the waiting room while no-one even speaks to May!
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
Blimey, unreal!!! You must be such fun!
Man City shouldn't be allowed to be happy with Sundays win, because Arsene Wenger thinks both goals were offside. So City didn't really win.
Clumsy edit, all analogies must be run past @kle4 before they can be used.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
and what a bleak morning. We can only hope and pray this doesn't happen in a UK market.
I trust our security and intelligence services, plus I've seen concrete barriers at a lot of locations so hopefully any attack of this kind will fail and the perpetrators caught and brought to justice.
I think the present state of affairs represents a serious systemic failure on the part of our political system for a long long period of time.
Essentially views questioning our role in the EU were dismissed as fringe for years. "Fruitcakes and loonies" was the classic of the genre. Clearly though concern at our direction within and relationship with the EU, be it expressed as constitutional worries directly or through the effects of pooled sovereignty such as open immigration, were or at least grew to be, far more mainstream than "Westminster/metropolitans" remotely suspected. Hence the shock. What many expected to be a walkover went totally wrong and brought into question, one suspects, much of their thinking for years before. Whatever, our democracy failed to reflect this concern in terms of MP's in the HoC. Cameron, though his own undoing in his "renegotiation" and reading of the UK's reaction to it, was in a sense the one left holding a baby that was 25 years plus in the making.
Leavers are brittle though, (fuelled I suspect by the EU having plenty of "form" on reversing referendums it doesn't like) and in exchange (if you like) for Remainers accepting we are going to leave, need to accept that some form of compromise on immigration will be in all probability be needed.
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
You're almost as bad as Scott'n'Paste with posting random twitter shit. If you can show us any evidence that Nigel Farage had anything to do with Britain First, I'd be very interested to listen. Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
Guardian live:- German media is reporting that the suspect, according to unnamed German authorities, entered the country via the so-called Balkan refugee route earlier this year.
His exact identity is not known, and it is being reported that he has held several identities. Die Welt newspaper is reporting that he came from Pakistan.
I don't know how many use it as a breaking news source - but Twitter is hours ahead of the MSM, the eyewitness video comes from Twitter, the intvs with Twitter users - the controversial video without pixels comes via Twitter.
I understand why the MSM decides to do what they do - but an awful lot of it smacks of treating its audience as small children. I don't need or want to be 'protected' with pixels. Blur out faces for decency/privacy of victims - but the rest is what actually happened. When it gets censored out - it totally minimises the horror.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
Blimey, unreal!!! You must be such fun!
Man City shouldn't be allowed to be happy with Sundays win, because Arsene Wenger thinks both goals were offside. So City didn't really win.
Clumsy edit, all analogies must be run past @kle4 before they can be used.
To extend the analogy, people who voted Remain still trying to say Leavers didn't really want to leave the EU as dozens are murdered at a Christmas market as a direct consequence of one of its major policies is like Wenger saying "This team has tremendous mental strengths" as we throw away three points up north for the 2nd time in a week.
Good luck to Scotland - invited directly by Juncker to speak to Brussels despite PB Leaver wishful thinking. Brexit is a complete shambles. A void. The sensible parts of the UK that voted to Remain have no incentive nor responsibility to help effect it.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
Name these countries - 2 guesses left!
Guernsey & Jersey
Technically the Bailiwicks:
- Are in the Common Travel Area - Have their own currencies, tied at parity to GBP - Are in the Customs Union - Are not in the European Union - so natives have no automatic rights of freedom of movement/settlement within the EU and have their passports endorsed accordingly.
But if Nicola Sturgeon's Grand Strategy relies on a country with the population of Glenrothes, its hanging on a very shoogly peg....
MaxPB said Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
They were not only let in, they were - presumably - vetted for their security-related job. And not by lefties, either.
I disagree - goodwill to all men (and women) I say. I know nothing about pension law, but I don't imagine it to be too stimulating. PB gives Alastair Meeks a chance to unleash an alter ego upon the world, and fantasise that his views have some wider significance. It's a social service.
Still want to be a fireman when you grow up?
I'm afraid my career as a Russian spy leaves me little time.
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
You don't half talk some crap Moses.
Spends too much time listening to God
Too many tablets.
JRM? Really? Seems doubtful, but hardly leading.
I think I have the answer, but I had to do some looking up, so I'll wait and see if anyone can do it properly.
You're almost as bad as Scott'n'Paste with posting random twitter shit. If you can show us any evidence that Nigel Farage had anything to do with Britain First, I'd be very interested to listen. Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
Ah, the customary hair trigger touchiness, and it isn't even wine o'clock. Who mentioned Britain First?*
Witness Emma Rushton told Sky News: "It wasn't an accident. It was going at 40mph through the middle of the market."There was no way it could have come off the road and it showed no signs of slowing down."
"No official details have been released about the man, but Berlin public radio station RBB-Inforadio - citing security sources - reported he is a Pakistani citizen who entered Germany on 31 December, 2015
Police tweeted that they were investigating reports it had been taken from a construction site in Poland but the boss of the firm that owned the truck said it had gone to Berlin loaded with steel beams. Truck owner stated "I can vouch for my driver. I see it that they did something to him and hijacked his truck that was practically in Berlin centre ... It was not my driver. They simply did something to him, God forbid, so it looks."He is my cousin ... I have known this man from birth. I can guarantee, it was not our driver who did it"
There was detail of the intv this chap did on Polish TV last night - he talked about the GPS data of the truck and how it didn't make sense given the route the chap was tasked with. Poor bugger to end up dead/hostage.
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
What? The ones arguing what colour and texture Brexit should be?
I'm hoping for a velour Brexit.
Soft and silky please
I think sackcloth is what is going to be delivered, with no returns accepted.
I'll take it as an honorary title, in the festive spirit!
If it were workable one assumes it would be for N Ireland too? Of course it would move Scotland effectively to the point of Dominion status a bit like Australia/Canada in about 1920. Which I'm sure Ms Sturgeon would see as another step on the road.
However, would Rajoy in Spain wear it or Brussels? Not so much Europe a la carte as a eat all you can buffet for each territory that felt it needed something a bit different. Bavarian CSU for different asylum policy? Catalonia for different corporation tax etc?
I can see though, when the dust settles, that "Devo more max" will be on the cards as a quid pro quo for leaving.
With respect to the Remain side, what vision was offered for staying in The EU, was it clear what sort of EU Cameron and others were wanting? Was it a lose federation or a single state?
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
Name these countries - 2 guesses left!
Guernsey & Jersey
Technically the Bailiwicks:
- Are in the Common Travel Area - Have their own currencies, tied at parity to GBP - Are in the Customs Union - Are not in the European Union - so natives have no automatic rights of freedom of movement/settlement within the EU and have their passports endorsed accordingly.
But if Nicola Sturgeon's Grand Strategy relies on a country with the population of Glenrothes, its hanging on a very shoogly peg....
If I've read you right they are not in the Single Market?
(It was you who originally alerted me to the anomaly so apologies if I've misremembered)
If the German attacker is proved to be a recent refugee via the Balkans, it will be rebound electorally on Angela, perhaps unfairly. Logic suggests that if you import a million people from a known hotspot, a very small proportion, at least, will be Islamic extremists.
And these are the ones most likely to commit atrocities.
I'm surprised that they are surprised. That's not to say you shouldn't let in genuine refugees, but she'll now have to convince the voters she took every possible precaution - a difficult task,
MaxPB said Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
They were not only let in, they were - presumably - vetted for their security-related job. And not by lefties, either.
Eh? The truck was hijacked by a Pakistani "Asylum seeker". There is absolutely no vetting in Germany on new arrivals, they just turn up and get their papers from the nearest centre.
You're almost as bad as Scott'n'Paste with posting random twitter shit. If you can show us any evidence that Nigel Farage had anything to do with Britain First, I'd be very interested to listen. Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
Ah, the customary hair trigger touchiness, and it isn't even wine o'clock. Who mentioned Britain First?*
"From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"
snip
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Suggest you stand back and leave it to the adults then
What? The ones arguing what colour and texture Brexit should be?
That Brendan Cox tweet is in apalling taste. He should be the one calling for others to allow her to rest, not using her himself as a some sort of twitter clapback.
You're almost as bad as Scott'n'Paste with posting random twitter shit. If you can show us any evidence that Nigel Farage had anything to do with Britain First, I'd be very interested to listen. Otherwise it's just another false equivalence used by the left to make themselves feel better about this awful attack by someone who should not have been let into Germany.
Ah, the customary hair trigger touchiness, and it isn't even wine o'clock. Who mentioned Britain First?*
*Apart from you.
Dickhead.
Lol! And the 'seant Wee Small Hours' award for PBer most likely to go off on one at the drop of a hat goes to..
and what a bleak morning. We can only hope and pray this doesn't happen in a UK market.
I trust our security and intelligence services, plus I've seen concrete barriers at a lot of locations so hopefully any attack of this kind will fail and the perpetrators caught and brought to justice.
I hope so too - however, I'm not sure what could stop a big truck carrying tonnes of steel beams... travelling at speed. What a weapon.
If the German attacker is proved to be a recent refugee via the Balkans, it will be rebound electorally on Angela, perhaps unfairly. Logic suggests that if you import a million people from a known hotspot, a very small proportion, at least, will be Islamic extremists.
And these are the ones most likely to commit atrocities.
I'm surprised that they are surprised. That's not to say you shouldn't let in genuine refugees, but she'll now have to convince the voters she took every possible precaution - a difficult task,
Not unfairly, any backlash against Merkel will be entirely fair. Whatever Dave did or didn't do during the referendum campaign, his policy of taking people directly from the refugee camps in Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon was and still is the correct response. That way we take the most vulnerable people who are at risk of abuse and attacks themselves and we ensure there is proper vetting and background checks before arrival. Most of all it doesn't create any incentive to come illegally and enrich people traffickers. Merkel's "everyone is welcome" announcement was a disaster on every level and the events of last night are completely and utterly damning of her stupidity and short term thinking.
G-Live. The right-wing populist Alternative für Deutschland (Alternative for Germany) has claimed Germany is no longer safe and that its Christian tradition is under attack.
In a statement Frauke Petry, its main spokeswoman, said: “Terror has now arrived in our midst. The radical Islamtic terror has hit us right in the middle of Germany. A lorry weighing several tons was deliberately steered into a crowd of people. Dozens of people looking forward to Christmas and wanting to celebrate have been crushed and some of them very seriously injured.
We cannot be under any illusion. The milieu in which such crimes are able to thrive has been imported here systematically over the past one and a half years.
This incident is not singular and will happen again. We only need to look to France to know that. The Christmas market was not an accidental target. It is not only an attack on our freedom and our way of life, but on our Christian tradition. Germany is a country which is divided over the immigration question. But the terror will bring us together. These terrorists are godless people.
Petry goes on to say she wants Germany’s borders to be controlled again, without any exception. She added that “mosques in which Jihad is preached, have to be closed .... All Muslims who call our country their homeland will welcome such steps.
“Germany is no longer safe. It is the duty of the German chancellor to communicate this...But I tell you, she won’t do this.”
The thing is, no-one, Leaver or Remainer is trying to make the best of Brexit. Remainers fold their arms and say, nothing to do with us. Leavers variously that it will all be great, no need to discuss ; or blaming others for thwarting the project. None of these three attitudes are recipes for success.
A consensus can only happen if all parties accept that Brexit will go ahead, that it will be very messy, and that it's up to us to deal with the mess and that for the foreseeable period our efforts are devoted entirely to formally leaving the EU while limiting the damage as much as possible.
The politics acts against that consensus unfortunately. Vote for us to make the most of the bad job you voted for, isn't a compelling call to action.
Mr. StClare, I'd guess that whilst this may bolster AfD in the polls, the German system (PR) effectively means it'll make very little difference to their fortunes or the result generally. Unless there's a massive swing of opinion. But there have been terror attacks in Germany before, and it hasn't produced such a change.
You think we will still be in the EU in five, ten years?
Depends what "in the EU" means.
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Whatever May negotiates will be ok, because all it will be is a trade deal with a foreign country that the next government can loosen or tighten as they see fit. The winners are ok with it because we won and are leaving.
Yep broadly. It will only be the nutters purists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.
Blimey, unreal!!! You must be such fun!
Man City shouldn't be allowed to be happy with Sundays win, because Arsene Wenger thinks both goals were offside. So City didn't really win.
Clumsy edit, all analogies must be run past @kle4 before they can be used.
To extend the analogy, people who voted Remain still trying to say Leavers didn't really want to leave the EU as dozens are murdered at a Christmas market as a direct consequence of one of its major policies is like Wenger saying "This team has tremendous mental strengths" as we throw away three points up north for the 2nd time in a week.
G-Live. The right-wing populist Alternative für Deutschland (Alternative for Germany) has claimed Germany is no longer safe and that its Christian tradition is under attack.
In a statement Frauke Petry, its main spokeswoman, said: “Terror has now arrived in our midst. The radical Islamtic terror has hit us right in the middle of Germany. A lorry weighing several tons was deliberately steered into a crowd of people. Dozens of people looking forward to Christmas and wanting to celebrate have been crushed and some of them very seriously injured.
We cannot be under any illusion. The milieu in which such crimes are able to thrive has been imported here systematically over the past one and a half years.
This incident is not singular and will happen again. We only need to look to France to know that. The Christmas market was not an accidental target. It is not only an attack on our freedom and our way of life, but on our Christian tradition. Germany is a country which is divided over the immigration question. But the terror will bring us together. These terrorists are godless people.
Petry goes on to say she wants Germany’s borders to be controlled again, without any exception. She added that “mosques in which Jihad is preached, have to be closed .... All Muslims who call our country their homeland will welcome such steps.
“Germany is no longer safe. It is the duty of the German chancellor to communicate this...But I tell you, she won’t do this.”
The image of the truck with the fallen Christmas tree right next to it made quite an impression on me.
That Brendan Cox fella knows nothing about human nature or he's a plant from Farage.
Angela takes some credit for her humanitarian feelings, but you have to take the rough with the smooth. As a politician, that should be lesson number one.
The person to blame is the one committing the atrocity, but the first duty of a government is to keep its citizens safe. Or, at least, take all possible measures to do so. If Cox doesn't understand that, he shouldn't be out on his own.
Comments
No I think you are wrong there.
The UK would dearly love to be in the single market but won't accept free movement of labour.
The EU would dearly love the UK to be in the single market but can't compromise on free movement of labour.
If Scotland is prepared to accept free movement of labour then there is no reason why they shouldn't stay in. And if the UK is going to introduce their labour restrictions at the point of employment (ie a green card system) as May has indicated then there is no reason why Scotland shouldn't pursue a different position and become very prosperous.
Also there is already a working example in Europe of a country within the single marketplace in a customs and currency union with a country which is not. Name that country!
Time's Arrow will not be reversed. Get over it. Have a mince pie. Raise a glass. Sing Auld Lang Syne. Welcome in the New Post-Article 50 Year. Campaign to rejoin the EU. Or animal welfare. Something that might do some good instead.
A more pertinent question is raised by your second paragraph about size. Again religious schools, even at secondary level, tend to be below average size. While I would agree about 'more and bigger' I'm all for 'more and smaller' schools, which is one area where successive governments have been going catastrophically wrong since 1970 at least.
As I have also said, in my experience faith schools do not foster division and are not there to proselytise. Admittedly that is my quite limited experience and therefore anecdotal.
In the same way, I don't like it when Labour wins, but the public are entitled to vote for a Labour government.
Der Generalbundesanwalt hat die Ermittlungen zum #Breitschreidplatz übernommen. Auch die weitere Pressearbeit wird nun von dort erfolgen.
Basically says - the federal prosecutor of Germany representing the federal government has taken charge of investigating the Berlin atrocity. - The Public Prosecutor General has primary jurisdiction in cases of crimes against the state (in particular terrorism, espionage and treason), so this is about as close as you can expect to get from the German authorities admitting that this was a terrorist attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BwMpqodrWQ
Witness Emma Rushton told Sky News: "It wasn't an accident. It was going at 40mph through the middle of the market."There was no way it could have come off the road and it showed no signs of slowing down."
"No official details have been released about the man, but Berlin public radio station RBB-Inforadio - citing security sources - reported he is a Pakistani citizen who entered Germany on 31 December, 2015
Police tweeted that they were investigating reports it had been taken from a construction site in Poland but the boss of the firm that owned the truck said it had gone to Berlin loaded with steel beams. Truck owner stated "I can vouch for my driver. I see it that they did something to him and hijacked his truck that was practically in Berlin centre ... It was not my driver. They simply did something to him, God forbid, so it looks."He is my cousin ... I have known this man from birth. I can guarantee, it was not our driver who did it"
http://news.sky.com/story/berlin-christmas-market-lorry-crash-a-probable-terror-attack-10702930
In reality whatever Theresa negotiates will be entirely in accordance with the referendum result.
We shall see if Leavers are as chilled when that negotiation includes one issue or other they dislike.
In Britain we had an attempts to get an 18 million long petition and to flood Last Night of the Proms with EU flags.
No it is not Greenland. There is a working example of two countries in Europe in a passport, currency and customs union with each other but one is within the single market and one is not.
Name these countries - 2 guesses left!
And what are they?
I'll help
Italy. And.....
Whatever deal we end up with, the mood music from Government suggests they very much want to remain "in the EU" as far as some people will be concerned.
Whether that is technically achievable is another matter, but neither result will stop the increasing shrill cries of betrayal from some of the "winners"
Switzerland and Liechtenstein?
I'd guess his title odds will be 6 or 7 (currently 8). If the car's good enough, which is open to question, that's too short for the each way bet. But probably too tight to tip.
The prize goes to you - you are now one of Ms Sturgeon's Scotremain team!
Many suspected that the industrial dispute which has made the Brighton to London line resemble a cattle class troop train from the 1940s was not just about driver only trains. The Sunday Times splashes on details of a heartwarming speech given by Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, one of those bringing chaos to millions, admitting that the unions are co-ordinating action to
"bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government". He declared that "rule No 1" for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to "strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order", telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, "if we all spit together we can drown the bastards"
Military wing of the Labour Party on the March. Really don't like democracy or losing do they? Travelling public of course just cannon fodder in their leftie world.
The serious side of all of this is that it would be foolish not to rate the Sturgeon strategy. Her team has been thinking and working on this for five months. UK Ministers sound like they have been thinking about it for five minutes. The point about Switzerland and Liechtenstein is not that they are the same as Scotland and England but that it shows such an arrangement is workable. If it were not for the River Rhine you would not know there was a border between the two.
Vatican City and Italy?
His exact identity is not known, and it is being reported that he has held several identities. Die Welt newspaper is reporting that he came from Pakistan.
The government's position is to leave and achieve the best deal. You may disagree but that's broadly in line with the referendum. The Lberal's position is to vote against Art 50 and offer another refendum. It's anti-democratic but based on the view that they are special people, more intelligent and know better. Difficult to defend unless you are part of that special group and don't really like democracy.
But Labour? Their position is to vote for Article 50 but try to attach conditions to the negotiations. If they fail in attaching conditions they must still vote for Art 50. It was all pointless. So, let's assume they succeed. They attach conditions. But what happens if those conditions are not met. We are out of the EU by now, so their posturing was all pointless anyway. Why bother?
Berlin attacker named as refugee who entered Germany using false identity https://t.co/9enX8vwwXw https://t.co/wUMcGD5en3
But they think best deal involves staying in single market... Whilst government is a bit unsure on that?
As to whether conditions have an inpact... Probably not much- but with a small tory majority... It definitely would have some influence on TM thinking.
and what a bleak morning. We can only hope and pray this doesn't happen in a UK market.
nutterspurists who notice that we remain, in the terms of those deals, subject to an external body, the ECJ, say, and complain about it being a violation of our sovereignty.Really
that's why Junker met Salmond in Brussels last week "Scotland has earned the right to be heard in Europe and listened to in Brussels" - that's Junker speaking not Salmond!
David Davies can't even get vinto the waiting room while no-one even speaks to May!
Ask a stupid question and you'll get a stupid answer
Man City shouldn't be allowed to be happy with Sundays win, because Arsene Wenger thinks both goals were offside. So City didn't really win.
Which leading UK politician used to describe himself as a "National Socialist"?
(For the avoidance of doubt Oswald Mosley is not the right answer)
https://twitter.com/BDStanley/status/811128169193476096
I think the present state of affairs represents a serious systemic failure on the part of our political system for a long long period of time.
Essentially views questioning our role in the EU were dismissed as fringe for years. "Fruitcakes and loonies" was the classic of the genre. Clearly though concern at our direction within and relationship with the EU, be it expressed as constitutional worries directly or through the effects of pooled sovereignty such as open immigration, were or at least grew to be, far more mainstream than "Westminster/metropolitans" remotely suspected. Hence the shock. What many expected to be a walkover went totally wrong and brought into question, one suspects, much of their thinking for years before. Whatever, our democracy failed to reflect this concern in terms of MP's in the HoC. Cameron, though his own undoing in his "renegotiation" and reading of the UK's reaction to it, was in a sense the one left holding a baby that was 25 years plus in the making.
Leavers are brittle though, (fuelled I suspect by the EU having plenty of "form" on reversing referendums it doesn't like) and in exchange (if you like) for Remainers accepting we are going to leave, need to accept that some form of compromise on immigration will be in all probability be needed.
Italy and San Marino?
I understand why the MSM decides to do what they do - but an awful lot of it smacks of treating its audience as small children. I don't need or want to be 'protected' with pixels. Blur out faces for decency/privacy of victims - but the rest is what actually happened. When it gets censored out - it totally minimises the horror.
- Are in the Common Travel Area
- Have their own currencies, tied at parity to GBP
- Are in the Customs Union
- Are not in the European Union - so natives have no automatic rights of freedom of movement/settlement within the EU and have their passports endorsed accordingly.
But if Nicola Sturgeon's Grand Strategy relies on a country with the population of Glenrothes, its hanging on a very shoogly peg....
They were not only let in, they were - presumably - vetted for their security-related job. And not by lefties, either.
Should Buddhist taxes pay for the armed forces? Should social Darwinists have to fund the NHS?
You're a silly sausage.
Miss Plato, Twitter's also very useful for some F1 bets (the 2012 and 2016 Spanish Grands Prix stand out).
Who mentioned Britain First?*
*Apart from you.
I'll take it as an honorary title, in the festive spirit!
If it were workable one assumes it would be for N Ireland too? Of course it would move Scotland effectively to the point of Dominion status a bit like Australia/Canada in about 1920. Which I'm sure Ms Sturgeon would see as another step on the road.
However, would Rajoy in Spain wear it or Brussels? Not so much Europe a la carte as a eat all you can buffet for each territory that felt it needed something a bit different. Bavarian CSU for different asylum policy? Catalonia for different corporation tax etc?
I can see though, when the dust settles, that "Devo more max" will be on the cards as a quid pro quo for leaving.
England 5 down.
(It was you who originally alerted me to the anomaly so apologies if I've misremembered)
And these are the ones most likely to commit atrocities.
I'm surprised that they are surprised. That's not to say you shouldn't let in genuine refugees, but she'll now have to convince the voters she took every possible precaution - a difficult task,
Yesterday you were wanting to wipe Gateshead off the map, so perhaps today you might wish to suggest that County Durham becomes part of Yorkshire.
And the 'seant Wee Small Hours' award for PBer most likely to go off on one at the drop of a hat goes to..
In a statement Frauke Petry, its main spokeswoman, said: “Terror has now arrived in our midst. The radical Islamtic terror has hit us right in the middle of Germany. A lorry weighing several tons was deliberately steered into a crowd of people. Dozens of people looking forward to Christmas and wanting to celebrate have been crushed and some of them very seriously injured.
We cannot be under any illusion. The milieu in which such crimes are able to thrive has been imported here systematically over the past one and a half years.
This incident is not singular and will happen again. We only need to look to France to know that. The Christmas market was not an accidental target. It is not only an attack on our freedom and our way of life, but on our Christian tradition. Germany is a country which is divided over the immigration question. But the terror will bring us together. These terrorists are godless people.
Petry goes on to say she wants Germany’s borders to be controlled again, without any exception. She added that “mosques in which Jihad is preached, have to be closed .... All Muslims who call our country their homeland will welcome such steps.
“Germany is no longer safe. It is the duty of the German chancellor to communicate this...But I tell you, she won’t do this.”
A consensus can only happen if all parties accept that Brexit will go ahead, that it will be very messy, and that it's up to us to deal with the mess and that for the foreseeable period our efforts are devoted entirely to formally leaving the EU while limiting the damage as much as possible.
The politics acts against that consensus unfortunately. Vote for us to make the most of the bad job you voted for, isn't a compelling call to action.
Angela takes some credit for her humanitarian feelings, but you have to take the rough with the smooth. As a politician, that should be lesson number one.
The person to blame is the one committing the atrocity, but the first duty of a government is to keep its citizens safe. Or, at least, take all possible measures to do so. If Cox doesn't understand that, he shouldn't be out on his own.
BREAKING: Polish man found dead in Berlin attack had been shot