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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What’s missing this Christmas is any sign of peace and goodwil

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What’s missing this Christmas is any sign of peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN

It’s coming up to six months since the referendum and there doesn’t seem to be much sign of peace or goodwill in the Christmas period between Remain and Leave.  Remain-supporting newspaper op-ed writers vituperate the behaviour of Leavers.   Leave-supporting newspaper op-ed writers screech at the perfidy of Remainers.  On Twitter, the Brexit debate has become egg-bound.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    What an ironic observation coming from your, Mr Meeks.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    "Even if Britain tried to perform a volte face, the EU should not want to stay tied to such a flaky, demanding partner"

    I don't think this is true. Brexit means the resumption of hundreds of wealth-sucking barriers to study and work, and it's is a huge destroyer of value for everyone. If the British decided they wanted to stay the rest of the EU would breathe an exasperated sigh of relief and everyone would go back to making money. But they won't.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    @ rkrkrk FPT "Would you include US cities in that like New York; DC or San Francisco?"

    Of the large US cities, I know NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, San Fran/Bay Area, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, Denver, Baltimore and LA (most of the top 25 metropolitan areas). Only 3 come close to London in terms of being the centre of all things - NY, DC and LA in that order (although LA would certainly dispute being placed lower than DC)

    New York comes the closest. It has the vibe, the finance, the wealth, the restaurant scene and Broadway and the Met, plus the museums. But it is not really the centre for popular culture (music and film, although it has some TV) and it really is not a, let alone the, centre of national politics.

    DC is unparalleled even by London for political importance, and has a very decent cultural and restaurant scene, but it has virtually no buzz, and business is dominated by government, military, healthcare and anything large enough to need to lobby the government. There is very little entrepreneurial happening in DC.

    LA has Hollywood and TV, music but, to me, is entirely soul-less. If forced, I'd chose San Fran (not San Jose) over LA anytime. Great location, food, vibe and entrepreneurialism (both IT and synbio), with a modicum of culture.

    For out and out fun, Miami is the place.
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    edited December 2016
    Finding a fouled bed, some would seek to clean up. After 6months, Meeks still wallows. Nature or nurture? Either way, it stinks.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited December 2016
    "Flaky and demanding" I find an absolutely excellent description......


    Of the EU itself.

    Just wondering....seem to remember the original photo used by the Government have the hand and pencil on the ballot paper fully over remain or was this the photo used at the time?
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    Good question Moses ..... the huge pro-Remain propaganda effort at the time of the referendum by the Establishment was shameful but ultimately largely self defeating. We Brits are rather more streetwise these days than used to be the case and more capable of identifying when we are being led by the nose.
  • ChristianChristian Posts: 6
    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    It's certainly true that Remain voters have a higher opinion of themselves (or a lower opinion of Leave voters):

    MAIN Reason for voting: 'Misinformed + stupidity/ignorance + lack of Knowledge'

    Remain Voters on Leave Voters: 25
    Leave Voters on Remain voters: 9

    Not that you'd know that from posters on here......
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,151
    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    Welcome Christian, and I agree entirely.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    RobD said:

    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    Welcome Christian, and I agree entirely.
    YouGov comments:

    The BES study suggests that Leave voters were relatively evenly split between sovereignty and immigration in their June vote (a Lord Ashcroft poll also suggested sovereignty was the top motivation). Likewise Remain voters suggested in the BES study that they voted to stay on the basis of economic considerations.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/why-other-half-vote/

    In the YouGov study only 1% of Leave voters thought 'Freedom of Movement' was the main reason for Remain voters
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    W e have to leave the EU.... Everything else is up for grabs.
    Immigration was not on the ballot. It's a mistake to look at things in terms of 'what leavers or remainers want' and try to appease or satisfy either group.
    Instead we should be looking at what the country wants...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited December 2016
    FPT: reports in German media, being referenced on BBC News this morning, suggest that Berlin truck attacker a refugee of Pakistani or Afghan origin who arrived in Germany in February.

    The original driver of the truck, who has not survived, was Polish, and the inference being drawn in some quarters is that the attacker hijacked his vehicle to use as a weapon.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    MTimT said:

    @ rkrkrk FPT "Would you include US cities in that like New York; DC or San Francisco?"

    Of the large US cities, I know NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, San Fran/Bay Area, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, Denver, Baltimore and LA (most of the top 25 metropolitan areas). Only 3 come close to London in terms of being the centre of all things - NY, DC and LA in that order (although LA would certainly dispute being placed lower than DC)

    New York comes the closest. It has the vibe, the finance, the wealth, the restaurant scene and Broadway and the Met, plus the museums. But it is not really the centre for popular culture (music and film, although it has some TV) and it really is not a, let alone the, centre of national politics.

    DC is unparalleled even by London for political importance, and has a very decent cultural and restaurant scene, but it has virtually no buzz, and business is dominated by government, military, healthcare and anything large enough to need to lobby the government. There is very little entrepreneurial happening in DC.

    LA has Hollywood and TV, music but, to me, is entirely soul-less. If forced, I'd chose San Fran (not San Jose) over LA anytime. Great location, food, vibe and entrepreneurialism (both IT and synbio), with a modicum of culture.

    For out and out fun, Miami is the place.

    Thanks for the info. I'm idly wondering about a US move in future. Never been to LA but I like not having to use a car... So suspect that rules it out.

    From the brief visits I did I preferred DC... I felt like the special things about New York I could largely get in London. DC felt much greener than New York too... Although all of these impressions are based on very limited research.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    At last, Mr Meeks makes a move towards a more balanced article. Seasons greetings.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296
    Black_Rook said:

    FPT: reports in German media, being referenced on BBC News this morning, suggest that Berlin truck attacker a refugee of Pakistani or Afghan origin who arrived in Germany in February.

    The original driver of the truck, who has not survived, was Polish, and the inference being drawn in some quarters is that the attacker hijacked his vehicle to use as a weapon.

    There's a suggestion on Sky News that the lorry was hijacked in Poland and driven across the border and into Berlin.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Ho Ho Ho.

    http://order-order.com/2016/12/19/telegraph-politics-team-launches-public-attack-editor/
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    Quite, having lost despite all the threats they then focus only on the worse accusation they can possibly level at the majority ....... Xenophobia/ racism/ islamophobia, Johnny Foreigner hating etc etc. Ignore all other more important reasons as they cannot be described as "disgusting"

    Note these views are always attributed to "the English" or "little Englanders" of course while ignoring entirely Wales also voted to leave. Doesn't fit the meme see.....

    It's Just the final and desperate tail flips of a landed fish.

    Welcome by the way.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Black_Rook said:

    FPT: reports in German media, being referenced on BBC News this morning, suggest that Berlin truck attacker a refugee of Pakistani or Afghan origin who arrived in Germany in February.

    The original driver of the truck, who has not survived, was Polish, and the inference being drawn in some quarters is that the attacker hijacked his vehicle to use as a weapon.

    From that same report

    "German politicians have avoided branding the bloodshed a suspected terror attack at this stage"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38375555

    Won't even "suspect a terror attack" Even the German people cannot now be so utterly blind and stupid to continue to put up with this bullshit from their own politicians?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/proftomkins/status/811095935912648704
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Not a great start to the SNP's Free Unicorn's For Everyone 'Scotland in EU launch':

    One of Nicola Sturgeon’s handpicked Brexit advisers has poured cold water on her proposals to keep Scotland in the EU single market even if the UK leaves, only hours before she unveils them on Tuesday morning.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/nicola-sturgeon-brexit-adviser-pours-cold-water-single-market/amp/
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    test
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    I agree with this. There are many remainers however who have reluctantly come to the view that we need to leave, this includes a large part of the conservative party and labour MP's in leave voting constituencies. I believe the result was a bad mistake, nothing changes that, but equally understand that we have to leave and try and make the best of it (and make it work for both us and the rest of the EU).

    There are nutters about on the leave side and similarly people on the Remain side who want to overturn the result by any means possible, but amongst the population as a whole I think they are a minority, they all need either to be sidelined from the debate, or otherwise they need to see sense.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    CarlottaVance said:

    It's certainly true that Remain voters have a higher opinion of themselves (or a lower opinion of Leave voters):

    MAIN Reason for voting: 'Misinformed + stupidity/ignorance + lack of Knowledge'

    Remain Voters on Leave Voters: 25
    Leave Voters on Remain voters: 9

    Not that you'd know that from posters on here......

    It's true that there are plenty of well-informed Leavers motivated by things like the EU forcing us to let prisoners vote and a desire to trade with the wider world like South Korea instead of being shackled to Europe.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Moses_ said:

    Black_Rook said:

    FPT: reports in German media, being referenced on BBC News this morning, suggest that Berlin truck attacker a refugee of Pakistani or Afghan origin who arrived in Germany in February.

    The original driver of the truck, who has not survived, was Polish, and the inference being drawn in some quarters is that the attacker hijacked his vehicle to use as a weapon.

    From that same report

    "German politicians have avoided branding the bloodshed a suspected terror attack at this stage"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38375555

    Won't even "suspect a terror attack" Even the German people cannot now be so utterly blind and stupid to continue to put up with this bullshit from their own politicians?
    You really think so? The likelihood of Merkel still being chancellor at the end of the year is strong. And it's virtually certain that the CDU will still be the largest party, by a clear margin, in the next Bundestag.
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/proftomkins/status/811095935912648704

    The SNP solution to their difficulties is, as always, to stamp their feet and demand even more autonomy for Scotland.

    If they were serious about their social democratic utopia, they would actually be making more use of the powers they already have. Such as proposing a good soaking of the wealthy with sumptuary levels of income tax, in order to deal with - to pick a random example out of the air - the manifold failures of the education system, of which they have been making a hash for nearly a decade now (with no discernible electoral consequences.)

    Fortunately, May seems - so far - to be resisting the urge to give in to all this special pleading in order to try to shut them up. All previous experience suggests that such appeasement doesn't work.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    nielh said:

    they all need either to be sidelined from the debate, or otherwise they need to see sense.

    Ah, democracy...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RupertMyers: Re. a second referendum (whatever you think of it): more democracy is not 'an attempt to thwart democracy'

    @RupertMyers: If that were the case, the 2016 referendum would itself have been 'an attempt to thwart democracy.'
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016
    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    Well said, and welcome to PB.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Christian said:

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    You want to talk about this one?

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Moses_ said:

    "Flaky and demanding" I find an absolutely excellent description......


    Of the EU itself.

    Just wondering....seem to remember the original photo used by the Government have the hand and pencil on the ballot paper fully over remain or was this the photo used at the time?

    Nah, this was the original illustration:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811102228190785537?s=09
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.

    Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    edited December 2016
    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alanbrooke said:

    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

    This time of year is associated with shepherds. I'm just trying to help a few lost lambs.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.

    Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
    Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.

    If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.

    All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,225
    "Let a bunch of psycho nutjobs run the country"

    Eh? TMay and Hammond are many things, but are you really saying they are psycho nutjobs?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016
    Alanbrooke said:

    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

    My heart sank at yet another Brexit Humbug thread. I saw the title and thought it'd be about yesterday's rash of terror incidents - and the various political reactions to it. Alas not.

    On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Happy Returns to any others celebrating theirs today.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    Christian said:

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    You want to talk about this one?

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
    On the subject of health:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/20/brexit-could-make-nhs-shortage-of-nurses-worse-says-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Though in Leaverstan surely this is seen as a feature rather than a bug. Britain's sturdy yeoman nurses no longer have their wage rates suppressed by cheaper workers from the EU.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Scott_P said:

    Christian said:

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    You want to talk about this one?

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
    Project Fear?

    . Didn't seen to deter the multitude of comments on here in the few days after the ref vote saying project fear was correct.....except it wasn't

    Oh yes we haven't left yet of course

    Yawn!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    @AMeeks

    it's also associated with miracles.

    maybe you could write a thread on why you now support Leave :-)
  • Robert_Of_SheffieldRobert_Of_Sheffield Posts: 207
    Incidentally, around October next year Corbyn is likely to be asked for his opinion on the 100th anniversary of the Russian revolution by mischief makers hoping he'll say something that sounds vaguely like he approves of Lenin and co.

    Obviously, he's got plenty of time to prepare a uncontroversial response to that question. Think he will?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.

    Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
    Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.

    If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.

    All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
    If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.

    I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.

    The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    PlatoSaid said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

    My heart sank at yet another Brexit Humbug thread. I saw the title and thought it'd be about yesterday's rash of terror incidents - and the various political reactions to it. Alas not.

    On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Happy Returns to any others celebrating theirs today.
    Happy birthday Ms Plato

    Bah Humbug :wink:
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,739
    How many referenda does Rupert Myers want before he'll accept the result?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Moses_ said:

    "Flaky and demanding" I find an absolutely excellent description......


    Of the EU itself.

    Just wondering....seem to remember the original photo used by the Government have the hand and pencil on the ballot paper fully over remain or was this the photo used at the time?

    Nah, this was the original illustration:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811102228190785537?s=09
    My mistake...this one

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB624GB624&oq=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&aqs=chrome..69i57.12107j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgdii=xS-ao4_mE1LCOM:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:&imgrc=tTjSRH3du3ag1M:
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2016
    Ever closer Union is a deal breaker with the EU.

    We would be even more semi detached and dragged along behind with rancorous exemptions.

    The ultimate destination of ever closer Union is the destruction of the EU. Nation States will not shed individuality, national traits and identity to a super national body ruling them. All artificially created 'super' States implode in time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    PlatoSaid said:

    On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Happy birthday Miss Plato. You never ask a lady her age, of course, but may you have many more of them.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Out in the real world there is plenty of ‘peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN’ or at least an air of optimism and general acceptance of the democratic result IMHO - PB.Com appears to be very much the exception to the rule and where half a dozen miseries squat 18 hours a day goading and gnashing their teeth. - Carry on.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SimonStClare said:

    Morning all.

    Out in the real world there is plenty of ‘peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN’ or at least an air of optimism and general acceptance of the democratic result IMHO - PB.Com appears to be very much the exception to the rule and where half a dozen miseries squat 18 hours a day goading and gnashing their teeth. - Carry on.

    I don't think so! Though quite a few Leave voters have rather gone quiet at work over what they have wrought.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    AlastairMeeks said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll).

    It would be undemocratic for Remainers to believe, as they clearly do, that the vote was won on immigration and not accept controls on freedom of movement, even if they deplore them or the way they think the argument was framed.

    Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
    Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't matter why I think the vote was won or lost.

    If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.

    All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
    If you believe a democratic decision to be so immoral it must be opposed with every fibre of your being, you must act accordingly. If you value democracy seriously, you should otherwise honour it in spirit and not just the letter.

    I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.

    The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
    I didn't want us to leave the EU but I can accept my side lost the referendum and now would resist attempts to prevent brexit.

    But I don't see why you get to determine what the spirit of the decision was with regard to immigration.

    As has been pointed out already - many didnt feel immigration was a key part of their decision.

    I also don't think calling the other side children is likely to help the Christmas spirit!
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited December 2016
    @Plato - On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Many happy returns of the day Ms Plato, hope it’s a boozy & boxset cracker of a day for you.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    PlatoSaid said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

    My heart sank at yet another Brexit Humbug thread. I saw the title and thought it'd be about yesterday's rash of terror incidents - and the various political reactions to it. Alas not.

    On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Happy Returns to any others celebrating theirs today.
    Happy birthday.

    Have a cake themed tweet :-)

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811111052561776640?s=09
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    This was an actual postal voting explanation sheet for referendum postal votes. So even with remain as the first or top selection, the pencil clearly in the remain box using blatant auto suggestion Remain still lost. To think they spent yonks arguing about the wording?

    "Disgusting" to coin a word from the thread header.

    http://tinyurl.com/ztmxlev
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2016
    foxinsoxuk said:



    SimonStClare said:

    Morning all.

    Out in the real world there is plenty of ‘peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN’ or at least an air of optimism and general acceptance of the democratic result IMHO - PB.Com appears to be very much the exception to the rule and where half a dozen miseries squat 18 hours a day goading and gnashing their teeth. - Carry on.

    I don't think so! Though quite a few Leave voters have rather gone quiet at work over what they have wrought.
    Or you are witnessing the start of the shy leaver phenomenon. Maybe they really can't be bothered with the imagined moral superiority adopted by many vociferous remain supporters who have such closed minds that they cannot see beyond racist labels that confirm their world view of leavers and Brexit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,151
    edited December 2016
    Moses_ said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Moses_ said:

    "Flaky and demanding" I find an absolutely excellent description......


    Of the EU itself.

    Just wondering....seem to remember the original photo used by the Government have the hand and pencil on the ballot paper fully over remain or was this the photo used at the time?

    Nah, this was the original illustration:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811102228190785537?s=09
    My mistake...this one

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB624GB624&oq=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&aqs=chrome..69i57.12107j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgdii=xS-ao4_mE1LCOM:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:&imgrc=tTjSRH3du3ag1M:
    Yep, that was in the voting packet in several areas. How on earth anyone could have thought that was a sensible idea is beyond me.

    Edit: I think this is the one you mean - http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/574c9800130000fb073830be.jpeg
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,151
    @foxinsoxuk that cartoon is quite ridiculous. The government is currently scrambling to make up for the lack of preparation before the vote.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John Moss
    Any snowflakes complaining about this photo today? https://t.co/g6fr3R0VzX
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    edited December 2016
    Apropos yesterday's discussion about the Oath to British Values (TM) wouldn't a more effective step be for the Government to abandon its plans to drop the current 50% cap on religious admissions?

    Schools are central to building communities and it makes no sense whatsoever to reduce their ability to create social bonds between children and between adults of different faiths and no faith.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    SimonStClare said:

    @Plato - On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Many happy returns of the day Ms Plato, hope it’s a boozy & boxset cracker of a day for you.

    I've just had a look at my Christmas Tesco delivery order that's arriving at noon. It's 80% fizz, brandy and chocolates - the rest is festive snacks :wink:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    edited December 2016
    Anyway, a thought has struck me.

    Clinton will of course be invited to Inauguration Day as the wife of a living former President.

    Given what has happened, will she go? Or will she register a last feeble protest against the indignity Trump and the electorate - including the EC - have heaped on her by staying away?

    If she goes, she will (a) presumably look as if she is sucking lemons all the way through the ceremony and (b) appear to be accepting a result that is exceptionally traumatic for her personally.

    If she stays away, she looks like a three year old having a tantrum.

    Any markets on this?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,860
    rkrkrk said:


    Instead we should be looking at what the country wants...

    How are we supposed to decide what the country wants? A referendum perhaps?

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,860
    Moses_ said:

    Won't even "suspect a terror attack" Even the German people cannot now be so utterly blind and stupid to continue to put up with this bullshit from their own politicians?

    Of course they'll put up with it. Why wouldn't they? They've put up with far worse in the last few years and done nothing about it.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Conflict News
    BREAKING: German SEK special police are reportedly storming a hanger at Tempelhof Airport used as a refugee shelter.
    https://t.co/lrovg3rH0V
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sean_F said:

    How many referenda does Rupert Myers want before he'll accept the result?

    You see that's the problem.

    For Brexiteers there is only one result, that must stand for all time, regardless of any change in circumstance or evidence, despite that fact they worked for 40 years to overturn "the result"

    The answer to your question is Rupert Myers accepts "the result" of all referenda. Why are Brexiteers so scared of democracy?

    "they all need either to be sidelined from the debate"
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,739
    In terms of acceptance of the result, there's a difference between those who dislike the EU, but on balance voted Remain, and those who really like the EU and/or hate the Leave side. The former (mostly Conservatives) have reconciled themselves to the result. The latter haven't.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Security expert: 'Christmas markets should have been shut'

    Prof Anthony Glees says police should have acted following a US warning about potential terrorist attacks at festive events."

    http://news.sky.com/story/security-expert-christmas-markets-should-have-been-shut-10702802
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Sean_F said:

    How many referenda does Rupert Myers want before he'll accept the result?

    Until he gets the result he wants!

    He's a good democrat European!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    Dura_Ace said:

    rkrkrk said:


    Instead we should be looking at what the country wants...

    How are we supposed to decide what the country wants? A referendum perhaps?

    Yes... I'm clear that we should brexit as that was the result of referendum.

    But there was no referendum on immigration; and no referendum on hard or soft brexit. So I will continue to push for my preferred brexit and i resent the idea that doing so is somehow anti-democratic.

    As an aside... I don't want more referendums... Prefer our parliamentary system for the most part.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited December 2016
    "I also don't think calling the other side children is likely to help the Christmas spirit!"

    Mr rkrkrk
    It's precisely that attitude as to why they lost. They simply are unable to see or contemplate any other alternative view to their own, they always know best and we should all just shut up like we have for 40 years and do as we are told. We have finally refused to shut up so we are all bulk labed as racists, placed on the remain political naughty step and scolded for our indolence to our betters simply for venturing an opinion.

    This is not allowed in the glorious EU to which we should always of course just doff our caps and go on our way. We should cast aside the Union flag ( mentioned yesterday) and wrap ourselves in a tacky irrelevant blue flag safe in the knowledge the grown ups have it under control and the children need not worry.

    Considering the toy throwing dummy spitter in chief is now referring to others as "children" is though highly amusing though not unexpected.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,328
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    BREAKING: German SEK special police are reportedly storming a hanger at Tempelhof Airport used as a refugee shelter.
    https://t.co/lrovg3rH0V

    I'm guessing that this is why the Germans have held that name of the suspect back.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    CarlottaVance said:

    Until he gets the result he wants!

    Like Bill Cash, or Peter Bone?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Sean_F said:

    In terms of acceptance of the result, there's a difference between those who dislike the EU, but on balance voted Remain, and those who really like the EU and/or hate the Leave side. The former (mostly Conservatives) have reconciled themselves to the result. The latter haven't.

    I am sure that's absolutely the case (not least because I count myself among that number).

    Whatever one thinks of Alastair's views, he does write exceedingly good thread headers!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    Bromptonaut said:

    Apropos yesterday's discussion about the Oath to British Values (TM) wouldn't a more effective step be for the Government to abandon its plans to drop the current 50% cap on religious admissions?

    Schools are central to building communities and it makes no sense whatsoever to reduce their ability to create social bonds between children and between adults of different faiths and no faith.

    I think the reason they wanted to drop the cap is to encourage more religious organisations (who after all, are among the few big groups left with the know-how and financial clout to open new schools) to set up new schools. Whether that is in and of itself desirable is a whole different question.

    However, we do urgently need new schools, a lot of them to cater for Catholic children (e.g. Poles) and they don't come cheap or easy. Speaking purely for myself from experience I would also a long sight sooner work in a school with a mild religious bent (which most of them are) than a for-profit academy chain and possibly than an LEA school. The atmosphere is better, discipline tends to be better managed (yes, really, and that's not necessarily a difference in intake either, more a question of quality of pastoral provision) and you are much less subject to passing political whims.

    I haven't found either that there is any particular discrimination regarding religion in them either - indeed one CofE school I worked in for a time had a Dawkinsian atheist as head of RS, and there was almost no religious background among the children. Partly this may be a function of the area it was in - a very run-down part of Malvern - but I think it was also because the church saw it as a Christian duty to go out and provide education to that area.

    Whether the Catholics see it that way I don't know, and I suspect they are the ones this policy is aimed at for the reasons I outline above. I will finish by saying I think it would be absurd to turn away a child on the grounds of religion, but if the school is at its quota that could in theory happen.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    Happy birthday @Plato_Says
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,739
    edited December 2016
    Moses, their difficulty is that they haven't experienced defeat, previously. If you think that history is inevitably travelling in the direction you favour, it must be a very hard to find out that It isn't.

    In a way, it's similar to the US. If you think that "The Coalition of the Ascendant" will permanently and inevitably shift America leftwards, it must be distressing to find out that you were wrong.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    In terms of acceptance of the result, there's a difference between those who dislike the EU, but on balance voted Remain, and those who really like the EU and/or hate the Leave side. The former (mostly Conservatives) have reconciled themselves to the result. The latter haven't.

    I am sure that's absolutely the case (not least because I count myself among that number).

    Whatever one thinks of Alastair's views, he does write exceedingly good thread headers!
    He is the Mr Kipling of PB.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    Off topic... This cricket match is looking like it will be tense again.
    Having all by given up hope on my India to win bet by lunch... They are right back in it.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Scot P

    I don't think a tweet for a Tory about the Daily Torygraph undermines anything.

    I saw this Timkins charactor on the Scottish politics show on television at the weekend. He was so bad that he makes David Mundell look good.

    More to the point I would make a fair bet that they have the detail of Sturgeons proposal wrong. I suspect she will argue that Scotland should stay in a UK customs union (whether or not the UK stays in the EU one!) but also stay within the European single market.

    That would mean all the advantages of the big market and no border with England or as David Davies said recently Ireland shouldn't have to chose between Britain or Europe. They can trade with both.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Sean_F said:


    Moses, their difficulty is that they haven't experienced defeat, previously. If you think that history is inevitably travelling in the direction you favour, it must be a very hard to find out that It isn't.

    The vacuum created by the govt and the persistent weakness in the Brexit arguments does not build confidence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.
  • Park_Town_BoyPark_Town_Boy Posts: 21
    If a majority had voted that we should jump off a cliff I would still be yelling at those lining up for the jump that they were idiots and I'd be keeping as far away from the cliff edge as possible.

    I would not feel any responsibility that it was my job to help encourage folk to jump.

    That's pretty much how I feel about Brexit.

    My hope is that at some point soon enough people will get fed up of rising prices that the penny will drop that they have been sold a crock and public opinion will shift.

    In the meantime I will stuck with what I know to be right.

    ('penny will drop', see what I did there?)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    Many happy returns Ms Plato. It must have sucked as a child having your birthday so near Christmas.

    And Merry Christmas Alastair. Your article and comments on the thread do show the way forward. There is a vast amount for those who believe in co-operation and the need for international action to play for. I voted Leave but I still believe it makes sense for us to continue to work very closely with our near neighbours on a wide variety of things.

    The question at the end is key. What are the most important factors in the negotiations for those that voted Remain? Being in the Single Market? The Currency Union? Our security co-operation (especially after yesterday)? The ability of our economy to still bring in the skilled immigrants it needs to succeed and grow in sufficient numbers? All of these are in varying degrees still up for grabs. Remainers who engage with the process will have a bigger say and effect on the choices made than those who carp on the sidelines.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    scotslass said:

    Scot P

    I don't think a tweet for a Tory about the Daily Torygraph undermines anything.

    I saw this Timkins charactor on the Scottish politics show on television at the weekend. He was so bad that he makes David Mundell look good.

    More to the point I would make a fair bet that they have the detail of Sturgeons proposal wrong. I suspect she will argue that Scotland should stay in a UK customs union (whether or not the UK stays in the EU one!) but also stay within the European single market.

    That would mean all the advantages of the big market and no border with England or as David Davies said recently Ireland shouldn't have to chose between Britain or Europe. They can trade with both.

    It is extremely difficult to see how Scotland can remain in two separate, overlapping markets. For a start, it is highly improbable the EU will allow it as that would give England de facto access to the SM as well.

    As for Ireland, they are a sovereign state and may chose their own path, Almost certainly, that will mean separate markets although it will probably mean free movement for them at least.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    Absolutely. It is, as was the campaign, an internal discussion within the Conservative Party.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,045
    At what point do we all agree that, although well intentioned, Merkels policy of unilaterally encouraging migrants/ refugees to travel unchecked to Germany was gross negligence.

    If indeed a lorry was hijacked in Poland and driven across to Germany, schengen can't last any further surely.

    A sad end to a sad year.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,328
    TOPPING said:

    One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."

    It's almost as if people who voted leave did so for different reasons!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,151
    TOPPING said:

    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    Absolutely. It is, as was the campaign, an internal discussion within the Conservative Party.
    Yet voted on by a substantial fraction of the country.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    Bullshit. The most sophisticated argument and approach the government has offered so far is that they want a red, white and blue Brexit.

    That is a vacuum. The sort of thing Nicola Murray would be ashamed off.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Lorry involved in the attack was stolen in Poland and loaded with steel beams. Made no attempt to slow down or stop and deliberately driven into the crowd. Polish citizen found dead in passenger seat. Arrested driver is afghan or Pakistani origin and an asylum seeker that arrived in February.

    Interesting authories are closing in quickly on other possible suspects

    BBC news 8am reports.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    foxinsoxuk said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    @AMeeks

    "Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "

    or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site

    My heart sank at yet another Brexit Humbug thread. I saw the title and thought it'd be about yesterday's rash of terror incidents - and the various political reactions to it. Alas not.

    On a cheerful note - today is my birthday! :smiley:

    Happy Returns to any others celebrating theirs today.
    Happy birthday.

    Have a cake themed tweet :-)

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811111052561776640?s=09
    Lol, when I saw that cartoon the other day I just thought this is is the last 6 months of PB in four pictures.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Sean_F said:

    In terms of acceptance of the result, there's a difference between those who dislike the EU, but on balance voted Remain, and those who really like the EU and/or hate the Leave side. The former (mostly Conservatives) have reconciled themselves to the result. The latter haven't.

    Yep. I see it quite simply. Democracy trumps Remain. End of.

    Maybe they did 'get it wrong'. But their right to 'get it wrong' is much more important than whether the economy is 3 or 4% smaller by 2030 or not.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    edited December 2016
    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    And we wonder why Remanin voters are not won over when they come out with this stuff.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,268
    Moses: "Considering the toy throwing dummy spitter in chief is now referring to others as "children" is though highly amusing though not unexpected."

    It is the gift that keeps giving....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Moses, I was just going to ask about that. Identity of the driver wasn't known at all last night when I went to bed.

    Mr. Max, surely it's Dave?

    Speaking of fake news, BBC news at ten had a piece on that. It was about as one-sided as could be. Old news = journalistic integrity, varied opinions, shared space for debate. Internet news = fake, opinions but not facts.

    Reminded me a bit of their reports on the Miller case in court. On the one side, independent and objective subjects wanting to give representatives of the people the say. On the other, a relic of past times (royal prerogative) from when kings could do whatever they wanted.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    Bromptonaut said:

    Apropos yesterday's discussion about the Oath to British Values (TM) wouldn't a more effective step be for the Government to abandon its plans to drop the current 50% cap on religious admissions?

    Schools are central to building communities and it makes no sense whatsoever to reduce their ability to create social bonds between children and between adults of different faiths and no faith.

    I think the reason they wanted to drop the cap is to encourage more religious organisations (who after all, are among the few big groups left with the know-how and financial clout to open new schools) to set up new schools. Whether that is in and of itself desirable is a whole different question.

    However, we do urgently need new schools, a lot of them to cater for Catholic children (e.g. Poles) and they don't come cheap or easy. Speaking purely for myself from experience I would also a long sight sooner work in a school with a mild religious bent (which most of them are) than a for-profit academy chain and possibly than an LEA school. The atmosphere is better, discipline tends to be better managed (yes, really, and that's not necessarily a difference in intake either, more a question of quality of pastoral provision) and you are much less subject to passing political whims.

    I haven't found either that there is any particular discrimination regarding religion in them either - indeed one CofE school I worked in for a time had a Dawkinsian atheist as head of RS, and there was almost no religious background among the children. Partly this may be a function of the area it was in - a very run-down part of Malvern - but I think it was also because the church saw it as a Christian duty to go out and provide education to that area.

    Whether the Catholics see it that way I don't know, and I suspect they are the ones this policy is aimed at for the reasons I outline above. I will finish by saying I think it would be absurd to turn away a child on the grounds of religion, but if the school is at its quota that could in theory happen.
    I accept that faith schools can be very good schools and that religious groups have the resources to open new ones. Neither of those reasons are good enough in my view to overcome the basic flaw that by definition they tend to be the choice of a particular group in society and so widen and reinforce divisions.

    Have we forgotten that the state also has the wherewithal to open new schools?

    There is no getting away from the fact that encouraging more and bigger faith schools is diametrically opposed to the new-found policy of promoting a less divided society - one which I wholeheartedly support, just not by the laughable means so far proposed.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."

    Who says that?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Jonathan said:

    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    And we wonder why Remanin voters are not won over when they come out with this stuff.
    When Emily Thornberry is seriously touted as the next labour leader because she had one single good day at the despatch box after a lot of help..... Then it is safe to say there is a total lack of credible opposition.

    Please do carry on though, feel free and fill your boots. So long as Labour continues to disappear up its own fundament with an unelectable fool as a leader that is perfectly fine by me.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TOPPING said:

    One of the more striking examples of cognitive dissonance by PB Leavers (and there are many) is that they on the one hand say "there was no Leave manifesto, it's up to the government to decide on what flavour Brexit we get" while at the same time declaring "the people voted for an end to free movement, no single market, etc, etc."

    It's an interesting line of argument from the Brexiteers.

    We needed a referendum because the current EU was "not on the original ballot paper"

    Now that neither "hard as fuck Brexit" or "soft as shite Brexit" were on the ballot paper, to have another vote would be "undemocratic"

    Brexit will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions and factional infighting as the battalions who rallied behind "Farage's Little Englander" banner to win the battle, skirmish over who gets the blame for the salted Earth left behind.

    BTW if they need a new figurehead, Dan Hannon is leading that charge...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Is the Polish version of the Guardian warning against an increase in islamophobia?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:

    SquareRoot said:

    The vacuum is the lack of a credible opposition.

    And we wonder why Remanin voters are not won over when they come out with this stuff.
    When Emily Thornberry is seriously touted as the next labour leader because she had one single good day at the despatch box after a lot of help..... Then it is safe to say there is a total lack of credible opposition.

    Please do carry on though, feel free and fill your boots. So long as Labour continues to disappear up its own fundament with an unelectable fool as a leader that is perfectly fine by me.
    It is the responsibility of the govt to create a plan and unite the country. Banalities like red, white and blue Brexit do nothing to win people over.

    The weak state of the opposition is a problem, but another conversation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Moses_ said:

    Christian said:

    "From that YouGov poll, Remainers clearly accept that the vote was won through Leave campaigning on immigration. The ability to place restrictions on freedom of movement from the EU is therefore a democratic necessity"

    This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.

    Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.

    Quite, having lost despite all the threats they then focus only on the worse accusation they can possibly level at the majority ....... Xenophobia/ racism/ islamophobia, Johnny Foreigner hating etc etc. Ignore all other more important reasons as they cannot be described as "disgusting"

    Note these views are always attributed to "the English" or "little Englanders" of course while ignoring entirely Wales also voted to leave. Doesn't fit the meme see.....

    It's Just the final and desperate tail flips of a landed fish.

    Welcome by the way.
    Wasn't it only those parts of Wales occupied by the evil English invaders that voted the Leave? The pure Celts remain unsullied.
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