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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s not just Manchester where there’ll be 2017 directly elect

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  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    edited December 2016
    AndyJS said:

    Sky: "several dead" in Berlin.

    Not exactly been a good day, has it? First the Russian Ambassador to Ankara, now this (although this may be another Glasgow and not another Nice).

    Edit:
    Y0kel said:

    The Germans authorities are of the opinion it was a deliberate attack.

    That would seem to invalidate that hope of some tiny mitigation to the tragedy.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2016
    RobD said:

    matt said:



    RobD said:

    Off topic, I have been sitting on tarmac at Heathrow for one hour now. No reason given.

    Iberia has rather fancy new planes, and you get to hear "Oh Blanca Navidad" in histrionic Spanish, but customer service seems a little lacking.

    I hope the plane door is open, unless you on wifi of course ;)
    I guess you're a legacy airline passenger from that.
    Just a US airline passenger. FAA regs.
    AA lets you use WiFi on landing now
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Mortimer said:

    Government should be less concerned with cycling (and I say this as a regular cyclist) and more concerned with housing.

    This is not rocket science. The but...but...butting of the progressives on here explains why they're so often on the wrong side of results...

    Graceless backtracking.

    Of course housing is more important.
    But I cited cycling schemes as a very visible sign of metro mayors, and you responded with snide remarks about Remainers.

    Are you really so intent of making an enemy of your fellow countrymen?

    Astonishingly spending on cycling schemes and housing developments are not mutually exclusive.
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    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    Sky: "several dead" in Berlin.

    Not exactly been a good day, has it? First the Russian Ambassador to Ankara, now this (although this may be another Glasgow and not another Nice).
    German Police confirm it was an attack similar to Nice using a truck
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    matt said:



    RobD said:

    Off topic, I have been sitting on tarmac at Heathrow for one hour now. No reason given.

    Iberia has rather fancy new planes, and you get to hear "Oh Blanca Navidad" in histrionic Spanish, but customer service seems a little lacking.

    I hope the plane door is open, unless you on wifi of course ;)
    I guess you're a legacy airline passenger from that.
    Just a US airline passenger. FAA regs.
    AA lets you use WiFi on landing now
    Yeah, hence the caveat in my earlier comment ;). Anyway, wedded to United given my lifetime balance!
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    At least 50 injured — Sky.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    Mortimer said:

    Government should be less concerned with cycling (and I say this as a regular cyclist) and more concerned with housing.

    This is not rocket science. The but...but...butting of the progressives on here explains why they're so often on the wrong side of results...

    Graceless backtracking.

    Of course housing is more important.
    But I cited cycling schemes as a very visible sign of metro mayors, and you responded with snide remarks about Remainers.

    Are you really so intent of making an enemy of your fellow countrymen?

    Astonishingly spending on cycling schemes and housing developments are not mutually exclusive.
    Except they draw from the same limited pot of money.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited December 2016
    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267

    ydoethur said:

    AndyJS said:

    Sky: "several dead" in Berlin.

    Not exactly been a good day, has it? First the Russian Ambassador to Ankara, now this (although this may be another Glasgow and not another Nice).
    German Police confirm it was an attack similar to Nice using a truck
    Can't wait for this year to end. One way and another it's been a fucking terrible year.

    As against that, there's no reason to think 2017 will offer geopolitical improvements.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Attacks were far more frequent, but mostly confined to Northern Ireland.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    In other news, 3 people have been shot and "badly injured" at an Islamic Centre in Zurich.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/zurich-shooting-latest-islamic-centre-three-people-shot-injured-police-a7485111.html
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sky News witness: truck was travelling at about 40 mph and hit the middle of the market.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Mail article naming Turkish gunman, also says that Ergodan and Putin have spoken by phone this evening.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4049400/The-undercover-cop-assassin-special-forces-officer-22-gunned-Russian-ambassador-meant-protect.html
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Lol. Possibly the only time Rob Schneider has made me laugh.

    https://twitter.com/RobSchneider/status/810794651640696832
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Not all countries have several cities in the same league as one another. The dominance of a single city may have been more or less over time, but while it is not common particularly in larger countries, it isn't unique for one in particular to be dominant either. I'm not saying work should not take place to try to empower and enrich other places, though as a market town in a rural area dweller, it is not on my list of priorities, but I remain to be convinced it is as urgent a problem as it sometimes is made out to be, and not at all because I am a fan of London, as I very much am not a fan of cities - too many people for my liking.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    No-one needs safe spaces when it comes to discussion.

    They don't need them, or deserve them, but many people's histrionic reactions designed to shut down or divert attention, to comments and topics they do not like, particularly though not universally on the internet, shows many people think they need them.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited December 2016
    How do they know he's a) Polish and b) a man?

    Edit: my bad, the gender is not assumed. Phew!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Constantly amazed that those who keep calling election results wrong, or ending up on the losing side of them, won't take the friendly advice of those of us who seem to be more in tune with the public.

    How would any of us aspire to be a pundit one day if we allowed calling results wrong to dent our confidence? Like a shark, you must only move forward.

    Me, I'm about 50-50 at the monent. USA wrong, Brexit right.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071
    RobD said:

    How do they know he's a) Polish and b) a man?

    Truck has Polish registration plates. Driver unlikely to be, I would have thought.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    Bild newspaper: attacker "on the run".
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited December 2016

    RobD said:

    How do they know he's a) Polish and b) a man?

    Truck has Polish registration plates. Driver unlikely to be, I would have thought.
    Ah, the driver of the Polish truck.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    MP_SE said:
    Just a guy with a Twitter account, doesn't seem to be affiliated to any known news organisation. Has 19k followers.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,284
    Depends whether the reference is to the truck or the driver. If the driver fled, presumably the former.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    The government is not doing anything because they are trying to win a 3m chase with a two-yr old filly*.

    My knowledge of horses is so poor I have to assume this metaphor passes muster.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited December 2016
    What has Merkel done! Accepting a number of migrants that can be integrated is one thing. But 1 million from a completely different culture. Wtf there is zero chance of them being integrated simply too many of them, whether this was by a recent migrant or not my point stands. What a disaster.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    According to reports, nine are dead, at least 5 injured and the driver is on the run.

    How terribly sad. RIP to the dead (inadequate as that sounds).
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    I don't fancy Merkel's chances a great deal next year.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    We're so fortunate that no-one has tried this truck method in the UK. Almost impossible to stop. Well done to our security agencies.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Also a lot of IRA explosions targeted property, rather than life. They could have killed a lot more than they did otherwise.

    As soon as Omagh and McCarthy showed that had changed, public opinion in Ireland shifted against them and they were forced to wind down their campaigns.

    Recent Islamic terrorism however has been all about killing as many people as possible.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
    Meanwhile the "Free the Electors" Hillary movement has produced results, for Trump though:

    https://twitter.com/komonews/status/810943683298082816

    So that's minus 4 electors for Hillary, a last desperate effort to stop Trump backfires as usual.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Causing as much death as possible seems to be the aim. The IRA had certain political aims and carefully calibrated the balance between showing how lethal they could be and not going so over the top that the reaction would set their cause back. This didn't always work of course and it didn't make them in any sense "better" terrorists than today's lot. It was simply a consequence of how they sought to achieve their aims. Today's terrorists make a different calculation, that's all.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
    Meanwhile the "Free the Electors" Hillary movement has produced results, for Trump though:

    https://twitter.com/komonews/status/810943683298082816

    So that's minus 4 electors for Hillary, a last desperate effort to stop Trump backfires as usual.
    LOL, that cheered me up no end.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
    Didn't we used to say 1/4 of the Earth was rightfully ours? How'd that turn out? :p
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    edited December 2016
    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
    Meanwhile the "Free the Electors" Hillary movement has produced results, for Trump though:

    https://twitter.com/komonews/status/810943683298082816

    So that's minus 4 electors for Hillary, a last desperate effort to stop Trump backfires as usual.
    Even if this is correct, hadn't two already declared they would not vote for Hilary, long before all this kicked off?

    I think four is already a record for faithless electors, incidentally.

    Edit:
    https://twitter.com/Pleased2CU/status/810946046629068800
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
    Didn't we used to say 1/4 of the Earth was rightfully ours? How'd that turn out? :p
    All of it was rightfully ours, we were generous at allowing 3/4 to everyone else :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Causing as much death as possible seems to be the aim. The IRA had certain political aims and carefully calibrated the balance between showing how lethal they could be and not going so over the top that the reaction would set their cause back. This didn't always work of course and it didn't make them in any sense "better" terrorists than today's lot. It was simply a consequence of how they sought to achieve their aims. Today's terrorists make a different calculation, that's all.

    I don't know, I think Islamic terrorists are far more barbaric than the IRA.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
    Didn't we used to say 1/4 of the Earth was rightfully ours? How'd that turn out? :p
    All of it was rightfully ours, we were generous at allowing 3/4 to everyone else :)
    We are indeed a generous people.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
    The absolute worst must be estate agents. Forever inventing fictitious areas or moving places into a neighbouring more desirable area.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016
    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
    Meanwhile the "Free the Electors" Hillary movement has produced results, for Trump though:

    https://twitter.com/komonews/status/810943683298082816

    So that's minus 4 electors for Hillary, a last desperate effort to stop Trump backfires as usual.
    LOL, that cheered me up no end.
    Actually It's minus 5 now, Bernie Sanders got one from Maine that was supposed to go for Hillary.

    All 5 where Sanders people who publicly said they wouldn't vote Hillary even if she won.
    So much for party unity.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Having witnessed a series of community governance reviews firsthand, it's my view that residents are some of the worst people for trying to establish what is and is not logically part of an area.
    Indeed. The excitable parochial voices drown out the vast majority who are indifferent/mildly pro.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Speedy said:

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    So we have possible coordinated ISIS attacks in Germany, Switzerland and Turkey today.

    Trump needs to stick to his word and crush them.
    Meanwhile the "Free the Electors" Hillary movement has produced results, for Trump though:

    https://twitter.com/komonews/status/810943683298082816

    So that's minus 4 electors for Hillary, a last desperate effort to stop Trump backfires as usual.
    BBC reporting one Dem voted for Bernie Sanders in Maine. Not looking good for Hillary trying to overturn the election result so far.
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    I've seen a few comments re whether this is like when the IRA were more active and stating either things mainly happened in NI or warnings were given. Firstly although of course most murders were in NI there were significant attacks on the mainland ¨warnings if given were usually vague or as at Manchester designed to send people into the path of the bomb ¨if you are under about 40 years old you probably have little idea just what living in the cold war in a bankrupt country with frequent terrorism was like - it was pretty fun as far as I remember but in terms of existential angst easily the equal of today
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    This has Guardian letter writing campaign written all over it. :D
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    I live in Gateshead and believe every minute we delay 'Greater Newcastle' it costs us dearly.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    Just found this for Faith Spotted Eagle, which I had assumed was a wind-up reference to the American national symbol:

    https://www.facebook.com/faith.s.eagle

    If that vote is allowed, definitely the most unusual candidate to get a vote in the electoral college, also joint first woman and first Native American.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Moral comparisons aside, giving warnings before a bomb attack and the sort of thing that has probably happened in Berlin are two rather different things.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Causing as much death as possible seems to be the aim. The IRA had certain political aims and carefully calibrated the balance between showing how lethal they could be and not going so over the top that the reaction would set their cause back. This didn't always work of course and it didn't make them in any sense "better" terrorists than today's lot. It was simply a consequence of how they sought to achieve their aims. Today's terrorists make a different calculation, that's all.

    I don't know, I think Islamic terrorists are far more barbaric than the IRA.
    Oh yes they are barbaric. Theirs is a cruelty which is pure evil.

    But the IRA were pretty cruel too: kneecappings, dragging mothers out from their homes in front of their children before killing them, planting bombs which killed children, shooting dead a baby in its mother's arms etc. I just didn't want to suggest that the IRA were somehow not evil bastards just because they didn't go in for the sort of gruesome viciousness IS seems to specialize in.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    In the Seventies, PIRA was as vicious as ISIS (so were their loyalist enemies). They were perfectly happy to let off no-warning car bombs in shopping centres.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:

    This has Guardian letter writing campaign written all over it. :D

    How did you know?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z0iuWh3sek
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Causing as much death as possible seems to be the aim. The IRA had certain political aims and carefully calibrated the balance between showing how lethal they could be and not going so over the top that the reaction would set their cause back. This didn't always work of course and it didn't make them in any sense "better" terrorists than today's lot. It was simply a consequence of how they sought to achieve their aims. Today's terrorists make a different calculation, that's all.

    I don't know, I think Islamic terrorists are far more barbaric than the IRA.
    Oh yes they are barbaric. Theirs is a cruelty which is pure evil.

    But the IRA were pretty cruel too: kneecappings, dragging mothers out from their homes in front of their children before killing them, planting bombs which killed children, shooting dead a baby in its mother's arms etc. I just didn't want to suggest that the IRA were somehow not evil bastards just because they didn't go in for the sort of gruesome viciousness IS seems to specialize in.

    OK, I take back what I said- I clearly don't know enough about what the IRA did :o
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "#berlin The governments knew something was happening, they put up concrete blocks around Birmingham Christmas market last week"

    twitter.com/joannetallis/status/810946885787811840
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Gateshead Borough isn't a town. It's in and of itself an amalgamation of several 'towns' created in the 1970s. It should never have existed as it is - as its many settlements are in any case functional satellites and suburbs of Newcastle. Only pathetic local parochialism (cheifly from councillors) has stopped it merging. It should be forced to.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,462
    kle4 said:

    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.

    The degree of 'sense' being used is entirely irrelevant. It is an attempt to destroy England.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    kingbongo said:

    if you are under about 40 years old you probably have little idea just what living in the cold war in a bankrupt country with frequent terrorism was like - it was pretty fun as far as I remember but in terms of existential angst easily the equal of today

    Indeed there is absolutely no comparison with any terrorism and thinking that the latest super power confrontation might kick off WW III and we'd all be dead within a few minutes.

    IIRC the government's main planning scenario for a Soviet attack was something nuts like 15 million dead in the first few hours, and another 30 million over a couple of weeks.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Looks like it happened just next to the famous church that was mostly destroyed during World War II.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    kle4 said:

    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.

    The degree of 'sense' being used is entirely irrelevant. It is an attempt to destroy England.
    Regional parliaments may be that, but I don't get that sense from regional mayors (they need a better name, IMO) - just that its a bloody poor idea.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    kle4 said:

    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.

    The degree of 'sense' being used is entirely irrelevant. It is an attempt to destroy England.
    Utter hyperbolic garbage. Was giving London devolution an 'attempt to destroy England'? Why should Gtr London have a mayoral system and not Gtr Manchester?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Jobabob said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Gateshead Borough isn't a town. It's in and of itself an amalgamation of several 'towns' created in the 1970s. It should never have existed as it is - as its many settlements are in any case functional satellites and suburbs of Newcastle. Only pathetic local parochialism (cheifly from councillors) has stopped it merging. It should be forced to.
    So much for democracy.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    AndyJS said:

    "#berlin The governments knew something was happening, they put up concrete blocks around Birmingham Christmas market last week"

    twitter.com/joannetallis/status/810946885787811840

    They wouldn't need specific intelligence to realise the risk given what happened in Nice.
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    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    And this is a fitting end to the farce of the Hillary Clinton campaign and all the other Stop Trump campaigns:

    https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/810940214168395777
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    I live in Gateshead and believe every minute we delay 'Greater Newcastle' it costs us dearly.
    As do many there. I know the area well. Most people who live there tell outsiders they are from Newcastle. Quite rightly - it's the same city.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    I've been to the Birmingham German Christmas Market a few times and apparently they put measures in place there to prevent this type of attack. I wonder if they also did so in Berlin.

    Was it like this under the IRA, or are things worse? Very depressing, either way.
    Warnings were usually - though not invariably - given.

    Yes, that was a small crumb of comfort. It appears terrorists today don't have the same scruples.
    Causing as much death as possible seems to be the aim. The IRA had certain political aims and carefully calibrated the balance between showing how lethal they could be and not going so over the top that the reaction would set their cause back. This didn't always work of course and it didn't make them in any sense "better" terrorists than today's lot. It was simply a consequence of how they sought to achieve their aims. Today's terrorists make a different calculation, that's all.

    I don't know, I think Islamic terrorists are far more barbaric than the IRA.
    Oh yes they are barbaric. Theirs is a cruelty which is pure evil.

    But the IRA were pretty cruel too: kneecappings, dragging mothers out from their homes in front of their children before killing them, planting bombs which killed children, shooting dead a baby in its mother's arms etc. I just didn't want to suggest that the IRA were somehow not evil bastards just because they didn't go in for the sort of gruesome viciousness IS seems to specialize in.

    OK, I take back what I said- I clearly don't know enough about what the IRA did :o
    It's one reason why those of us who remember and lived through the IRA's campaign are so appalled at (a)Corbyn's and McDonnell's association with the IRA; and (b) their dishonest attempts now to whitewash what it is they were actually doing. They were on the side of people who did these things and more.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Jobabob said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Gateshead Borough isn't a town. It's in and of itself an amalgamation of several 'towns' created in the 1970s. It should never have existed as it is - as its many settlements are in any case functional satellites and suburbs of Newcastle. Only pathetic local parochialism (cheifly from councillors) has stopped it merging. It should be forced to.
    Well, there was always a historic division: the border betweeen Northumberland and County Durham was the river Tyne.

    I agree with you though. Gateshead is a suburb of Newcastle.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited December 2016
    Telegraph reporting that Germany's N24 TV station say that "at least" nine are dead, including passenger in lorry. One man has been apprehended. Not a good day.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/lorry-ploughs-crowd-christmas-market-berlin/.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    Speedy said:

    And this is a fitting end to the farce of the Hillary Clinton campaign and all the other Stop Trump campaigns:

    https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/810940214168395777

    A phrase about parties and breweries springs to mind.

    Also about parties being over apart from the vomiting.
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    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "#berlin The governments knew something was happening, they put up concrete blocks around Birmingham Christmas market last week"

    twitter.com/joannetallis/status/810946885787811840

    They wouldn't need specific intelligence to realise the risk given what happened in Nice.
    That's true but there have been reports of similar barriers at other Christmas markets in the last few weeks. So it could be precaution and intelligence.
  • Options
    The pictures show a big truck similar in size to the one in Nice.

    Absolutely horrific.

    Government saying to Berliners to stay at home
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
    Palpatine was following precedent!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Anyone who seriously thinks that Salford isn't rightfully part of Manchester and Gateshead part of Newcastle should just look at a map.

    Rightfully part of? Surey that's a matter for the residents of those towns.
    Gateshead Borough isn't a town. It's in and of itself an amalgamation of several 'towns' created in the 1970s. It should never have existed as it is - as its many settlements are in any case functional satellites and suburbs of Newcastle. Only pathetic local parochialism (cheifly from councillors) has stopped it merging. It should be forced to.
    So much for democracy.
    On the ground reality of settlements can be vastly different from what is currently labelled as such (I don't know the areas in question), and resistance to recognizing that can be justified, particularly if no benefit is accrued from changing it (eg, if there is no improvement made by doing so, there's no harm sticking with the status quo), but like many things planning related (or at least adjacent) a lot of the time of residents or local residents have a justified point, it is entirely incidental as the same points would have been made justified or not. Lone inspectors can overrule local representative decision makers on planning matters precisely because merely doing what local people want may miss the bigger picture or be unreasonable; the problem with many of the metro mayor and devolution proposals and amalgamation ideas, is that in principle I would accept much more readily that things could be improved by imposing new arrangements which would face local opposition, but its done in such a haphazard way that local opposition leans more on the justified scale than not, at present, in many instances.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    RobD said:

    OK, I take back what I said- I clearly don't know enough about what the IRA did :o

    There are qualitative differences between the likes of ISIS and the republican and unionist terrorists in Norther Ireland, but they were for their time the worst in Europe and more than wicked enough to be beyond any attempt to mitigate what they did.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071
    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Jeffersonite? :)
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
    Ah yes, our short but ill-fated attempt at direct military rule. Like many, Cromwell learned that parliaments are great, but they constantly get in the way as well.
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    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Another probable terror attack in the capital of Germany on the day the Russian ambassador to Turkey is shot dead by a Turkish police officer in front of cameras.
    2016 really has been a mad year.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    The pictures show a big truck similar in size to the one in Nice.

    Absolutely horrific.

    Government saying to Berliners to stay at home

    It is like Nice.

    You can't get rid of every object that can be a lethal weapon, but you can try to keep those who would use them as lethal weapons, out of the country.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
    Palpatine was following precedent!
    Other way around, he was a long long time ago, remember.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,031
    Sandpit said:

    Telegraph reporting that Germany's N24 TV station say that nine are dead, including passenger in lorry. One man has been apprehended. Not a good day.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/lorry-ploughs-crowd-christmas-market-berlin/.

    Passenger being dead in lorry sounds odd.

    A terrible way to end a 2016 that's been fairly horrible for me personally, and very disruptive for the country and the world.
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    On the subject of elected mayors, the recent thread about Burnham was interesting. Whilst technically this should be in the bag for him, the 1/6 is bound to lengthen in the run up to the election. He is an archetypal career politician, and he failed to win the labour leadership in 2015, and his campaign is starting to look a bit cringeworthy: he is running the whole 'people are fed up with politicians' line and inviting people to write his own manifesto, which is bound to ultimately end up either as a sham where people are let down (most likely) or a manifesto that represents the views of people who came forward to get involved, inevitably left wing activists who are far removed from the reality of urban politics. Nothing is in the bag for him, and he has to straggle the impossible leave vs remain tightrope, being pulled one way by an urban core of activists against the voters on the other.
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    wasdwasd Posts: 276
    edited December 2016
    I was in that market a couple of years ago. It was nice, if a little quieter than some of the others, and the traders were very tolerant of my broken German.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.

    The degree of 'sense' being used is entirely irrelevant. It is an attempt to destroy England.
    Regional parliaments may be that, but I don't get that sense from regional mayors (they need a better name, IMO) - just that its a bloody poor idea.
    It's worked extremely well for London. Why is it then a bad idea for Manchester or Liverpool? Bizarre logic.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
    Palpatine was following precedent!
    Other way around, he was a long long time ago, remember.
    Right!
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    On thread this is a good way of distinguishing Heathite Tories from Thatcherite Tories.

    Heath created the metropolitan counties, Avon, Cleveland etc.

    Thatcher got rid of the extra layer of government.

    Osborne is yet again showing his Heathite tendencies.

    So do any PB Tories wish to show they are Heathite or Thatcherite ?

    Which -ite would I be if I wanted to abolish the councils and give regional governors direct control? :D
    A Cromwellite:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals
    Ah yes, our short but ill-fated attempt at direct military rule. Like many, Cromwell learned that parliaments are great, but they constantly get in the way as well.
    "They clamped down on what they considered to be rowdy behaviour (such as heavy drinking, music, dancing and fairs). They even tried to stop Christmas celebrations."

    Now that's topical, Puritans where against Christmas, oh the irony haha.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    edited December 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Telegraph reporting that Germany's N24 TV station say that nine are dead, including passenger in lorry. One man has been apprehended. Not a good day.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/lorry-ploughs-crowd-christmas-market-berlin/.

    Passenger being dead in lorry sounds odd.

    A terrible way to end a 2016 that's been fairly horrible for me personally, and very disruptive for the country and the world.
    Described as a co-driver in some reports.

    Sorry to hear that you've had a bad year. I hope 2017 will be better for your personally. :)

    EDITED: And remember the year is not yet over. Think of all those NY Eve celebrations. The authorities must be having conniptions at the thought of policing those.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Jobabob said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Actually he is right. The issue in going fully federal is that England is too large *relative* to its parent entity, the U.K. Any English parliament would therefore be either too powerful - delegitimising Westminster - or an expensive talking shop.

    The only way to square the circle is regional devolution within England.

    There seems/seemed little appetite for devolution to the regions. So let's try metros and counties.

    Osborne's initiatives are a tiny step in the right direction.


    It might have been, had it been done with any amount of sense (which is not necessarily Osborne's fault, given the lukewarm or varied reaction from regions), but the piecemeal nature of it and lack of clarity of who gets what means it will only add confusion.

    The degree of 'sense' being used is entirely irrelevant. It is an attempt to destroy England.
    Regional parliaments may be that, but I don't get that sense from regional mayors (they need a better name, IMO) - just that its a bloody poor idea.
    It's worked extremely well for London. Why is it then a bad idea for Manchester or Liverpool? Bizarre logic.
    Only if you treat all situations equally and ignore that my point was about the whole scheme not specific examples, which strikes me as even more bizarre logic! Manchester and Liverpool seem among the more sensible ones, actually, but the approach in other areas, cobbled together, I have yet to be convinced make much sense, and therefore add unnecessary confusion to an already over complicated system.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2016
    SeanT said:

    Angela Merkel should go down as the worst Chancellor in modern German history. Inter alia, her intransigence and stupidity on Free Movement (and her idiocy on Syrian migrants) led directly to Brexit.

    I find it almost impossible to imagine that they will elect her again.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    SeanT said:

    Angela Merkel should go down as the worst Chancellor in modern German history. Inter alia, her intransigence and stupidity on Free Movement (and her idiocy on Syrian migrants) led directly to Brexit.

    She made the Eurozone a German Empire though.
    And she would probably remain Chancellor for life if she chooses.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited December 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Telegraph reporting that Germany's N24 TV station say that nine are dead, including passenger in lorry. One man has been apprehended. Not a good day.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/lorry-ploughs-crowd-christmas-market-berlin/.

    Passenger being dead in lorry sounds odd.
    Will probably be the actual truck driver whom the terrorist stole the truck from.
This discussion has been closed.