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  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,570
    edited October 2016
    The Trumpers with mad, staring eyes are rife on here tonight! Is it a full moon?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's policies are nativist and probably damaging, Clinton's are non existent, she relies on a gross, hypocritical sense of entitlement as a woman and as a Clinton.

    Palin was a smart working class white woman who fought her way up through very tough circumstances. She sounded a bit mad, sometimes, but Americans always sound a bit mad to Brits. She might have been an American Thatcher. We will never know.

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Not quite true. Ronnie had been governor of Americas populous state for eight years.

    Trump however...
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019

    The Trumpers with mad, staring eyes are rife on here tonight! Is it a full moon?

    Quality post. It adds a lot to the debate on here.

  • weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's policies are nativist and probably damaging, Clinton's are non existent, she relies on a gross, hypocritical sense of entitlement as a woman and as a Clinton.

    Palin was a smart working class white woman who fought her way up through very tough circumstances. She sounded a bit mad, sometimes, but Americans always sound a bit mad to Brits. She might have been an American Thatcher. We will never know.

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Except his major claim to fame was being a successful governor of California.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    MikeK said:

    The BBC pushing support for Hillary for all it's worth on tonights 10:00pm news.

    It's almost like they don't understand no one here has a vote.
    It's well known that people living in backwards, repressive countries with no free media will do anything they can to find a way to receive the BBC's output so they can get the truth.
    That was true about 30 years ago.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    The Trumpers with mad, staring eyes are rife on here tonight! Is it a full moon?

    It's only Halloween, where Trumpers in hairy masks, chase Gardenwalkers all over the place. :)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,570
    MikeK said:

    The Trumpers with mad, staring eyes are rife on here tonight! Is it a full moon?

    It's only Halloween, where Trumpers in hairy masks, chase Gardenwalkers all over the place. :)
    :smiley:
  • glwglw Posts: 10,012
    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited October 2016
    weejonnie said:
    What I found particularly revolting about the assault on the homeless woman was all those people standing around either doing nothing or laughing.
  • weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's policies are nativist and probably damaging, Clinton's are non existent, she relies on a gross, hypocritical sense of entitlement as a woman and as a Clinton.

    Palin was a smart working class white woman who fought her way up through very tough circumstances. She sounded a bit mad, sometimes, but Americans always sound a bit mad to Brits. She might have been an American Thatcher. We will never know.

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Except his major claim to fame was being a successful governor of California.
    Hasta la Vista... baby!
  • glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
    Countries that like to think of themselves as free of the class system?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,012

    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria

    Oh I'm not saying the US is unique, but the extent of it in a society which is meant eschew hereditary power and where "everyone can grow up to be President" is odd. In theory Americans ought to be dead against such nonsense, in reality they lap it up.
  • glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
    Countries that like to think of themselves as free of the class system?
    I forgot - Canada is a Commonwealth Realm!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
    Neither Benn has been more than a cabinet member. The rest have had the number one job.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,119
    weejonnie said:

    MikeK said:

    The BBC pushing support for Hillary for all it's worth on tonights 10:00pm news.

    It's almost like they don't understand no one here has a vote.
    It's well known that people living in backwards, repressive countries with no free media will do anything they can to find a way to receive the BBC's output so they can get the truth.
    That was true about 30 years ago.
    It was true of the BBC World Service - which really tried (and succeeded) in being impartial. Rather than editorialising from the certain point of view, as the rest of the BBC does - "It has a liberal bias not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias" as Andrew Marr put it.
  • glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
    Neither Benn has been more than a cabinet member. The rest have had the number one job.
    We have to use what we have.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    SeanT said:

    I'm really not drunk. Just being lucid and honest. A cursory examination of Bill Clinton's sexual history raises some very very very serious questions. In respect to OGH I won't use incendiary words, but just go to Mr Google QC and introduce the words "Clinton" and "Epstein" - amongst many possibles - and you will find ample evidence of quite disturbing unpleasantness. I'm horrified - and I'm a drunken roue.

    Lefties who deny this are in denial. Bill and Hillary have some Macbethian compact to ignore each other's grotesque failings in pursuit of political power, as a team. FFS why is America faced with a choice between Trump and Hillary? It's wretched.

    This will go down as the most depressing presidential election in modern history, because of BOTH candidates.

    It is a country going through rapid demographic change and unaccepted relative decline with huge levels of inequality, throw in the shameful media and chaotic government Trump was inevitable. But Hillary wasnt, the left had an answer to Trump a dangerous demagouge in Bernie Sanders. Whilst he seems too left wing for us bear in mind HALF of Americans are poor and a quarter are in poverty. And many millions don't have healthcare, the inequality in America is grotesque and needs a sort of post war fix like Britain had.
  • SeanT said:

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    It is strange that a country that likes to think of itself free of the class system, and finds monarchies particularly amusing, should so frequently throw up political dynasties, and not just at the level of President but at all levels.
    Trudeaux in Canada
    Kims in Korea
    Nehru-Gandhis in India
    Benns in the UK
    Assads in Syria
    But America has gone Bush - Clinton - Bush - Clinton (with an Obama interlude). Incredible. And incredibly stagnant and wrong. And now some talk of President Michelle Obama.

    FFS. GET RID. Have a bloody revolution. Guillotine them ALL (metaphorically)
    Let them eat Tic Tacs!!!
  • Stodge City :lol::lol:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    Trump in Arizona coming up. Perhaps a wasted trip after yesterday's news.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RDeSRbefVE
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    O/T. Theresa's idea that government should not spend most of its time on self-propaganda has its drawbacks. If the media does not get spoon-fed it makes up the stories or just repeats speculation.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,063

    Stodge City :lol::lol:

    Pardon ?
  • stodge said:

    Stodge City :lol::lol:

    Pardon ?
    Carry On Cowboy on ITV :)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    edited October 2016
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start. Syria is a stain, but it's not as if the middle east was as peace before.

    Compared to Hillary or Trump he is a colossus.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start.
    He had world statesmen like Gordon Brown to lean on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    Michael Moore on Hillary on C4 now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    edited October 2016
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama was JFK but ironically while Hillary or Trump may not have his appeal they could be Nixon or LBJ and actually get more things done, despite having a similarly shady record
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start.
    He had world statesmen like Gordon Brown to lean on.
    Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

    Seriously. To become president at that moment and maintain confidence was a huge achievement.

    Just imagine if these two had been on offer in 2008.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start.
    He had world statesmen like Gordon Brown to lean on.
    Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

    Seriously. To become president at that moment and maintain confidence was a huge achievement.

    Just imagine if these two had been on offer in 2008.
    Well, Hillary was on offer in 2008 and to be honest I think if she and Obama had got each others' jobs at that point, the world would be better off now. (If only because Obama would now be a candidate.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    SeanT said:

    weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's policies are nativist and probably damaging, Clinton's are non existent, she relies on a gross, hypocritical sense of entitlement as a woman and as a Clinton.

    Palin was a smart working class white woman who fought her way up through very tough circumstances. She sounded a bit mad, sometimes, but Americans always sound a bit mad to Brits. She might have been an American Thatcher. We will never know.

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Except his major claim to fame was being a successful governor of California.
    Reagan was a fucking titan compared to Trump or H Clinton. What a shameful state of affairs for the world's mightiest democracy. SORT IT OUT, AMERICA

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    America is Byzantium now, not the Rome of the Caesars, let alone the Republic. Its relative decline is rapid, its decadence is, well, Byzantine.
    Byzantium was the product of a split Rome, America is still the most powerful nation on earth and while China will almost certainly overtake it in gdp terms it is very unlikely to overtake it in gdp per capita terms, in 50 years time I expect more people will still want to live in NYC and LA than Shanghai and Beijing. China is the world's most populous nation so it should be its most powerful nation, it is only now moving to become so precisely because it became more like the USA and less like Mao
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start.
    He had world statesmen like Gordon Brown to lean on.
    Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

    Seriously. To become president at that moment and maintain confidence was a huge achievement.

    Just imagine if these two had been on offer in 2008.
    Well, Hillary was on offer in 2008 and to be honest I think if she and Obama had got each others' jobs at that point, the world would be better off now. (If only because Obama would now be a candidate.)
    Obama was a candidate for change, he was ideally suited for 2008, not for now, Hillary is a candidate of experience, she is better suited for 2016 and 8 years of a Democratic administration
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,782
    AndyJS said:

    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/

    Thank you Andy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    Fiona Syms, former wife of Tory MP Robert Syms, standing as an independent in the Richmond by-election on a pro Heathrow, pro EU ticket to challenge both Zac Goldsmith and the LDs
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lioness-back-to-zap-zac-2bvnb70r8
  • viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/

    Thank you Andy
    Is there a Farm Foods election too?

    (I'll get me coat...)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Except his major claim to fame was being a successful governor of California.
    Reagan was a fucking titan compared to Trump or H Clinton. What a shameful state of affairs for the world's mightiest democracy. SORT IT OUT, AMERICA

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    America is Byzantium now, not the Rome of the Caesars, let alone the Republic. Its relative decline is rapid, its decadence is, well, Byzantine.
    Byzantium was the product of a split Rome, America is still the most powerful nation on earth and while China will almost certainly overtake it in gdp terms it is very unlikely to overtake it in gdp per capita terms, in 50 years time I expect more people will still want to live in NYC and LA than Shanghai and Beijing. China is the world's most populous nation so it should be its most powerful nation, it is only now moving to become so precisely because it became more like the USA and less like Mao
    When the Trumpsters ask "what have you got to lose?"; they forget that for all its current difficulties, America and Americans are very rich and powerful. They have a lot to lose.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start. Syria is a stain, but it's not as if the middle east was as peace before.

    Compared to Hillary or Trump he is a colossus.
    That is a REALLY low bar your setting
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Just brilliant. A little more crazy in a prodigiously fucked up world.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A friend of mine recently returned from India reckons it is likely to turn into a proper war. Very bellicose talk and actions on both sides.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Floater said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start. Syria is a stain, but it's not as if the middle east was as peace before.

    Compared to Hillary or Trump he is a colossus.
    That is a REALLY low bar your setting
    There's a reason why his approval ratings have gone up during the campaign...!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    AndyJS said:

    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/

    Doesn't look as though the Pirate-Left alliance is going to come even close to power - another case of opinion polls going askew?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    AndyJS said:

    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/

    But the media was telling me the Pirates were going to sweep to victory...?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,782
    edited October 2016
    The prefabs idea is stupid. You can't get mortgages on prefabs.You have to go to a very specialist mortgage provider. They are a rubbish investment and are not great to live in.

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    In fact, the biggest winners seem to be Regeneration, who are primarily a vehicle for people who want Iceland to join the EU. Might they pass us on our way out?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    weejonnie said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    ydoethur said:

    SeanT said:

    In 2016, the USA would literally have done better to choose a random citizen as president, by lottery, rather that Hillary or Trump

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

    Not necessarily Sean. They might have got Sarah Palin that way.
    Palin would have been better than either. I genuinely believe that.
    Now come on Sean. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being an ardent fan of Clinton or Trump, but they're both better than Palin. She combines the political acumen of Trump with the communication skills of Hilary, the sex drive of Bill and the gender politics awareness of Fiorina.

    Or were you thinking of one of her daughters?
    I think a Trump presidency OR a Clinton presidency will embarrass and disgrace America. Trump's

    If I were a Yank I'd vote Palin over Trump or Hillary
    I wonder what people thought over here in the (pre-internet) days when an aging B-movie actor, whose major claim to fame was starring with a chimp, won the American election?
    Except his major claim to fame was being a successful governor of California.
    Reagan was a fucking titan compared to Trump or H Clinton. What a shameful state of affairs for the world's mightiest democracy. SORT IT OUT, AMERICA

    And then you hear calls for President Michelle Obama. My god. Do they not see how that looks?

    America is Byzantium now, not the Rome of the Caesars, let alone the Republic. Its relative decline is rapid, its decadence is, well, Byzantine.
    Byzantium was the product of a split Rome, America is still the most powerful nation on earth and while China will almost certainly overtake it in gdp terms it is very unlikely to overtake it in gdp per capita terms, in 50 years time I expect more people will still want to live in NYC and LA than Shanghai and Beijing. China is the world's most populous nation so it should be its most powerful nation, it is only now moving to become so precisely because it became more like the USA and less like Mao
    When the Trumpsters ask "what have you got to lose?"; they forget that for all its current difficulties, America and Americans are very rich and powerful. They have a lot to lose.
    Indeed, what Americans are seeing is relative decline, they may no longer be as many multiple times more wealthy than the average citizen of the world they were 50 years ago however they are still comfortably better off
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    edited October 2016
    HYUFD said:


    Indeed, what Americans are seeing is relative decline, they may no longer be as many multiple times more wealthy than the average citizen of the world they were 50 years ago however they are still comfortably better off

    It's not only relative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2014.png
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:


    Indeed, what Americans are seeing is relative decline, they may no longer be as many multiple times more wealthy than the average citizen of the world they were 50 years ago however they are still comfortably better off

    It's not only relative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2014.png
    Still an awful lot to lose...

    Gamblers should know about not trying to rashly win back losses.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    edited October 2016
    viewcode said:

    The prefabs idea is stupid. You can't get mortgages on prefabs.You have to go to a very specialist mortgage provider. They are a rubbish investment and are not great to live in.

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

    Are the rumours true that Foxtons are now marketing the Jungle as a unique gated community development opportunity?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,782

    A friend of mine recently returned from India reckons it is likely to turn into a proper war. Very bellicose talk and actions on both sides.
    Possibly not the best time to post this trailer, then:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_vr6KALYrY
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    viewcode said:

    The prefabs idea is stupid. You can't get mortgages on prefabs.You have to go to a very specialist mortgage provider. They are a rubbish investment and are not great to live in.

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

    Are the rumours true that Foxtons are now marketing the Jungle as a unique gsted community development opportunity?
    Just a stones throw from Calais, and with excellent transport links too.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Latest results from the Iceland election:

    http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2016/

    Doesn't look as though the Pirate-Left alliance is going to come even close to power - another case of opinion polls going askew?
    Possibly. Looks like the party of the current prime minister is going to get less than 10%.
  • viewcode said:

    The prefabs idea is stupid. You can't get mortgages on prefabs.You have to go to a very specialist mortgage provider. They are a rubbish investment and are not great to live in.


    Hot dog
    Jumping frog
    Albuquerque

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T6e3GJCjow
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716

    HYUFD said:


    Indeed, what Americans are seeing is relative decline, they may no longer be as many multiple times more wealthy than the average citizen of the world they were 50 years ago however they are still comfortably better off

    It's not only relative.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2014.png
    There has been some decline in household income from the post war high of the mid 1990s as that graph shows, especially as a result of the 2008 crash, however even on that graph household wealth in the US is still well above where it was in 1985
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    A friend of mine recently returned from India reckons it is likely to turn into a proper war. Very bellicose talk and actions on both sides.
    I think we sell weapons to both sides - which of course is the correct approach to any foreign war.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    edited October 2016

    In fact, the biggest winners seem to be Regeneration, who are primarily a vehicle for people who want Iceland to join the EU. Might they pass us on our way out?

    Regeneration are presently on 10% ie about the same as the pro EU LDs are now polling and in 4th place, as they did not stand last time hardly surprising they are the biggest gainers. The Eurosceptic Independence Party on the other hand is on 31% and the largest party
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    viewcode said:

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

    It won't end until people understand that building affordable homes is a contradiction.

    Newly built anything, particularly something that is going to form part of the landscape, should be the best, the most ambitious, the most desirable. Increase overall supply and the old and run-down properties will become the affordable homes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,119
    viewcode said:

    The prefabs idea is stupid. You can't get mortgages on prefabs.You have to go to a very specialist mortgage provider. They are a rubbish investment and are not great to live in.

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

    Quite. If nothing else, brick and block can go up pretty damn fast..

    From what I see in the countryside South of London, people are gearing up for a massive building spree - councils planning on a big increases in parking at stations etc.

    The reason?

    Nimbyism is all very well - but if you have 10 acres of garden that is a pain to mow, and you work out how much that 5 acres of that is worth as housing.... I know a few places where this is reaching critical mass - enough are going to cash in to beat the nimbys at the planning stage...
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    HYUFD said:

    Fiona Syms, former wife of Tory MP Robert Syms, standing as an independent in the Richmond by-election on a pro Heathrow, pro EU ticket to challenge both Zac Goldsmith and the LDs
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lioness-back-to-zap-zac-2bvnb70r8

    I reckon she will pick up all of 150 votes.
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346
    GeoffM said:

    A friend of mine recently returned from India reckons it is likely to turn into a proper war. Very bellicose talk and actions on both sides.
    I think we sell weapons to both sides - which of course is the correct approach to any foreign war.
    Absolutely. Who cares how many kids die, as long as we make our cut, right?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,716
    edited October 2016
    MP_SE said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fiona Syms, former wife of Tory MP Robert Syms, standing as an independent in the Richmond by-election on a pro Heathrow, pro EU ticket to challenge both Zac Goldsmith and the LDs
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lioness-back-to-zap-zac-2bvnb70r8

    I reckon she will pick up all of 150 votes.
    Maybe, maybe a few more however good on her for at least offering a pro Heathrow option to voters even if most will disagree. Goodnight
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Monty said:

    GeoffM said:

    A friend of mine recently returned from India reckons it is likely to turn into a proper war. Very bellicose talk and actions on both sides.
    I think we sell weapons to both sides - which of course is the correct approach to any foreign war.
    Absolutely. Who cares how many kids die, as long as we make our cut, right?
    Calm down, dear.
    All of the fighting age 'kids' are safely in Calais right now waiting for a train to Luton.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2016

    viewcode said:

    Honestly, this shit happens every ten years. Somebody gets charged with solving the housing crisis and the first thing they do is look at the building method. Pods, structural insulated panels, polystyrene breezeblocks with poured concrete cores, log cabins, converted containers, houses on stilts, timber frame, prefabs, huf hauses, passiv houses, stupid German construction, stupid Scandi construction, stupid American construction, all sorts of stupid stupid stuff you can't get mortgages on. None of these address the problem: too many people chasing too many houses and the number of households being created each year exceeds the number of houses being built each year, for every year since, what, the mid 90's? Aaargh...

    It won't end until people understand that building affordable homes is a contradiction.

    Newly built anything, particularly something that is going to form part of the landscape, should be the best, the most ambitious, the most desirable. Increase overall supply and the old and run-down properties will become the affordable homes.
    I kindof agree, but from a different angle. Perhaps "prefabs for pensioners" would be a good way to solve the housing crisis within 5-10 years?

    Make receiving your pension dependent on downsizing to a newly-built retirement prefab.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    America will be fine. If whoever they elect is a dud, they will chuck them out in at most four years.

    Looking back, America seems to make good choices more often than bad.

    Anyone following Obama would look second rate

    Obama is the very definition of second rate. He has presided over continuing and accelerating relative American decline - cf Syria - and has done little at home apart from enact a fairly cack-handed health reform. He is, however, a great speech maker and a fine symbol of racial harmony (not that it seems to benefit or console urban American black youth under his rule).

    America is dwindling, and yet Europeanising. Obama represents that well.
    Obama is not second rate. Elected two months after Lehmann Bros and with the coalition still deep in Iraq, he did well just to keep show on the road at the start.
    He had world statesmen like Gordon Brown to lean on.
    Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

    Seriously. To become president at that moment and maintain confidence was a huge achievement.

    Just imagine if these two had been on offer in 2008.
    Well, Hillary was on offer in 2008 and to be honest I think if she and Obama had got each others' jobs at that point, the world would be better off now. (If only because Obama would now be a candidate.)
    It's not obvious that she:d have beaten McCain.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited October 2016
    Is the Betfair market trying to tell us something? Only the following runners are available both to back and lay:

    Trump 4.45

    Clinton 1.315
    Sanders 145
    Biden 420
    Kaine 495

    There will be more surprises before the election. Trump has now reversed the damage of the Second Debate And Pussy combo. Reverse the hit he took in the first debate and he'll be back to where he was after his opponent semi-collapsed on 11 September. The momentum is with him. Is Jennifer Hawkins all they've got? Pathetic.
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited October 2016
    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    The problem may not be poor materials or maintenance. Take a look at the 2007 Estonia event (goodbye NATO) and the Twitter, Paypal and Netflix problems last week. На здоровье!

    As General Valeri Gerasimov puts it: "The defeat of the enemy's objects is conducted throughout the entire depth of his territory."
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    edited October 2016
    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    Bias is often in the eye of the beholder. That extract could equally be read as a mocking indictment of the complacency of experts, and indeed that it how many people read it.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    What do you wan? He is being reckless.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    This is a must read piece.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/trump-campaign-final-days.html

    “I got really mad at him the other day,” Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway told me. “He said, ‘I think we’ll win, and if not, that’s okay too. And I said, ‘It’s not okay! You can’t say that! Your dry-cleaning bill is like the annual salaries of the people who came to your rallies, and they believe in you!’ ”
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    This is a must read piece.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/trump-campaign-final-days.html

    “I got really mad at him the other day,” Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway told me. “He said, ‘I think we’ll win, and if not, that’s okay too. And I said, ‘It’s not okay! You can’t say that! Your dry-cleaning bill is like the annual salaries of the people who came to your rallies, and they believe in you!’ ”

    He's making fools of so many vulnerable people. Sad really.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Micro Spooky Leaks
    Oops: Tim Kaine Heaped Effusive Praise On “Wonderful” Jim Comey On Sunday - https://t.co/WcEGhzDfJf
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    Here's a surprise - poll just out:

    Clinton +4 in Alaska.

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/#now
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    TBF some of the voting machine setups are so nasty that there's no way to know whether votes are being stolen or not. This should worry the Dems more than the GOP right now, since the Republicans run most of the swing states.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Trump is going all over

    http://archive.is/Th2xe
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,913
    Trump extends lead in the LA Times poll.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Trump extends lead in the LA Times poll.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    Why does the LA Times usually give Trump better numbers than the other pollsters?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2016
    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591

    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    TBF some of the voting machine setups are so nasty that there's no way to know whether votes are being stolen or not. This should worry the Dems more than the GOP right now, since the Republicans run most of the swing states.
    The whole concept of using computers as part of the voting process is deeply flawed. Whether it's badly calibrated touch screens or something more sinister, it is just too difficult for the results to be properly audited without a clear paper trail that the voter can see and that can be recounted if necessary.
    Sometimes technology just isn't the answer.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited October 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    TBF some of the voting machine setups are so nasty that there's no way to know whether votes are being stolen or not. This should worry the Dems more than the GOP right now, since the Republicans run most of the swing states.
    The whole concept of using computers as part of the voting process is deeply flawed. Whether it's badly calibrated touch screens or something more sinister, it is just too difficult for the results to be properly audited without a clear paper trail that the voter can see and that can be recounted if necessary.
    Sometimes technology just isn't the answer.
    I pretty much agree with that in practice right now, because the people involved aren't capable of evaluating the technology, but paper ballot tech has a lot of well-documented security problems as well, and done right you can get a lot more auditability if you use computers in the right places.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    edited October 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    TBF some of the voting machine setups are so nasty that there's no way to know whether votes are being stolen or not. This should worry the Dems more than the GOP right now, since the Republicans run most of the swing states.
    The whole concept of using computers as part of the voting process is deeply flawed. Whether it's badly calibrated touch screens or something more sinister, it is just too difficult for the results to be properly audited without a clear paper trail that the voter can see and that can be recounted if necessary.
    Sometimes technology just isn't the answer.
    I pretty much agree with that in practice right now, because the people involved aren't capable of evaluating the technology, but paper ballot tech has a lot of well-documented security problems as well, and done right you can get a lot more auditability if you use computers in the right places.
    Yes. The vulnerabilities in paper vote system are well known and understood by the lay people actually involved in running the election.

    Contrast with a computer voting system which you or I may be able to understand, stepping through the code, but which most people don't understand and can't mitigate against either accidental or malicious problems.

    In a US context, the implementation has also been horrible. The machines are closed source, with unknown vulnerabilities, running on outdated platforms (XP!) and with open USB ports on the side. Stored after the last election and brought back out after two years for next week's vote, there's so many things that could go wrong, and those using them (both voters and election administrators) don't understand them properly.
  • AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    The frightening thing is not so much that the entire Times website has gone down - these things happen - but that no one seems capable of fixing it even after two hours. You might have imagined that an organisation such as this would have some sort of back up system to come to the rescue immediately, but seemingly not .
    I have been similarly shocked in the past when the likes of Betfair has gone down for an extended period.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,157

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    The frightening thing is not so much that the entire Times website has gone down - these things happen - but that no one seems capable of fixing it even after two hours. You might have imagined that an organisation such as this would have some sort of back up system to come to the rescue immediately, but seemingly not .
    I have been similarly shocked in the past when the likes of Betfair has gone down for an extended period.
    It's working here okay, but that may be old news.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    MikeK said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

    That's the most likely explaination to be honest. The content server is up and running, but it looks like the user login page can't see billing status from the subscription server/database. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two or three servers involved, and one of them now has the wrong time on it, causing the problems. When the duty admin gets woken up by his phone ringing, (followed by his home phone, and his wife's phone...) he'll probably just need to change the clock and reboot it.
  • RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    The frightening thing is not so much that the entire Times website has gone down - these things happen - but that no one seems capable of fixing it even after two hours. You might have imagined that an organisation such as this would have some sort of back up system to come to the rescue immediately, but seemingly not .
    I have been similarly shocked in the past when the likes of Betfair has gone down for an extended period.
    It's working here okay, but that may be old news.
    Well, as if by magic, it's working again here now, not before time it has to be said ..... must have been my divine intervention!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,157
    Sandpit said:

    MikeK said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

    That's the most likely explaination to be honest. The content server is up and running, but it looks like the user login page can't see billing status from the subscription server/database. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two or three servers involved, and one of them now has the wrong time on it, causing the problems. When the duty admin gets woken up by his phone ringing, (followed by his home phone, and his wife's phone...) he'll probably just need to change the clock and reboot it.
    Ah, time zones. That's why everything should be in Unix time, and only converted when it needs to be displayed on a page.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,157

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    The frightening thing is not so much that the entire Times website has gone down - these things happen - but that no one seems capable of fixing it even after two hours. You might have imagined that an organisation such as this would have some sort of back up system to come to the rescue immediately, but seemingly not .
    I have been similarly shocked in the past when the likes of Betfair has gone down for an extended period.
    It's working here okay, but that may be old news.
    Well, as if by magic, it's working again here now, not before time it has to be said ..... must have been my divine intervention!
    Now just imagine PB went down... right when we were expecting a new thread... :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    edited October 2016
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MikeK said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

    That's the most likely explaination to be honest. The content server is up and running, but it looks like the user login page can't see billing status from the subscription server/database. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two or three servers involved, and one of them now has the wrong time on it, causing the problems. When the duty admin gets woken up by his phone ringing, (followed by his home phone, and his wife's phone...) he'll probably just need to change the clock and reboot it.
    Ah, time zones. That's why everything should be in Unix time, and only converted when it needs to be displayed on a page.
    That approach should be good for another 22 years, anyway!

    Anyone who programs computers should read this. Date and time is more difficult than people think it is!
    http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,157
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MikeK said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

    That's the most likely explaination to be honest. The content server is up and running, but it looks like the user login page can't see billing status from the subscription server/database. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two or three servers involved, and one of them now has the wrong time on it, causing the problems. When the duty admin gets woken up by his phone ringing, (followed by his home phone, and his wife's phone...) he'll probably just need to change the clock and reboot it.
    Ah, time zones. That's why everything should be in Unix time, and only converted when it needs to be displayed on a page.
    That approach should be good for another 22 years, anyway!

    Anyone who programs computers should read this. Date and time is more difficult than people think it is!
    http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time
    Astronomers have it even worse... sidereal time, barycentric time.. ugh
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MikeK said:

    AndyJS said:

    MikeL said:

    I've been trying to log on to The Times website for over an hour.

    Just get a completely blank page - nothing at all.

    I don't think it's my computer - all other sites are working normally and I've checked the address.

    Is it really the case that one of the biggest media organisations in the world can't manage to keep a website working?

    If so, why? The internet has been in widespread use for what, 25 years?

    Why is it still such an almighty struggle to both keep it working and for people to use it?

    When will it become like all other household products which operate at effectively 100% reliability?

    It's not working for me either. I think the internet has been in widespread use for about 18 years or so. 25 years ago is when the WWW was invented.
    Good morning. I think the problem is more prosaic than that, simply the change of time back an hour has screwed the works. LOL :D

    That's the most likely explaination to be honest. The content server is up and running, but it looks like the user login page can't see billing status from the subscription server/database. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two or three servers involved, and one of them now has the wrong time on it, causing the problems. When the duty admin gets woken up by his phone ringing, (followed by his home phone, and his wife's phone...) he'll probably just need to change the clock and reboot it.
    Ah, time zones. That's why everything should be in Unix time, and only converted when it needs to be displayed on a page.
    That approach should be good for another 22 years, anyway!

    Anyone who programs computers should read this. Date and time is more difficult than people think it is!
    http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time
    Astronomers have it even worse... sidereal time, barycentric time.. ugh
    Ooh, never used those. Sounds fun. Luckily I'm currently working in a time zone that doesn't change the clocks, so I'm confident that it won't be one of *my* servers with problems today!
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    Sandpit said:

    Dromedary said:

    According to the Daily Mail, "Trump has repeatedly raised fears about the integrity of the U.S. voting system. Yet experts say voter fraud is rare."

    Those lines are so typical of the British media nowadays, "quality" and otherwise. They might as well write "Kim il-Sung, he says".

    TBF some of the voting machine setups are so nasty that there's no way to know whether votes are being stolen or not. This should worry the Dems more than the GOP right now, since the Republicans run most of the swing states.
    The whole concept of using computers as part of the voting process is deeply flawed. Whether it's badly calibrated touch screens or something more sinister, it is just too difficult for the results to be properly audited without a clear paper trail that the voter can see and that can be recounted if necessary.
    Sometimes technology just isn't the answer.
    Yes, you have both made valid points, so who are these "experts" who the Daily Mail tells us are of the opinion that "voter fraud is rare"? Yet that is the structure of so many news items nowadays: unnamed "experts" are cited as saying this, that or the other, the message being "stay asleep and don't believe outlandish notions that things are other than hunky-dory".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    In other news - there's a new thread!
This discussion has been closed.