The Virgin Voyagers at pieces of shit. Literally in the case of their curious positioning of air conditioning and effluence pipes. Give me an old clap and bang on a 125 an day of the week over them.
.
Dire is an exaggeration and they cost the Exchequer £1 bn a year as againat £5 bn a year while charging half as much or less in fares.
You get what you pay for.
That's slightly disingenuous.
Firstly, the 1 billion is taking a very good year pre-privatisation. I can't find the document atm, but I've linked to it before on here. I think some years were two or more billion.
Secondly, the £5 billion includes new infrastructure spending such as Crossrail and GWML electrification;
Thirdly, passenger numbers have doubled.
Fourthly, as a whole the privatised companies are returning money to the treasury. The money sink is the nationalised Network Rail. The same could not be said under BR, where (I think) only Intercity was profitable.
Two billion, you are joking. In good years in the 80s it was nearer £500 million.
(Snip)
Nope, I'm right. Some years it was low, especially immediately prior to privatisation, but that was the problem: inconsistent funding.
"Not even intercity is profitable now. The franchise premiums for those dont anywhere near the subsidy for NR."
Wrong. The services are profitable: as a whole they returned £802 million to the government. It's NR's direct grant they don' pay for, and that's a complex little beast. Crossrail alone accounted for a billion in 2014/5.
No they are not. You cant just quote the franchise operator premiums. The cost is track and train. NR get far more for the intercity lines in grants than the train operators return in premiums. (the figures for provincial lines are total basket cases)
Under BR the entire intercity sector was profitable taking into account both train operation and track costs.
- and under the BR regime where intercity sector used the same tracks as other passenger and freight sectors, Intercity copped all the track costs - and still made a profit.
And BR managed grants of about £500 per year in the late 80s despite paying for total upgrades of both classic boat routes from London to the under construction channel tunnel - far, far more work than NRs small element of the overall crossrail project.
I don't find it in me to say good things about IDS but surely the position of stupidest leader of a major political party since the war is no longer his.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
I think the two passages in bold explain each other.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Or perhaps given he was being followed by a video maker and wanted to big a big thing about state of railways / rail nationalization, they engineered the whole thing.
The Virgin Voyagers at pieces of shit. Literally in the case of their curious positioning of air conditioning and effluence pipes. Give me an old clap and bang on a 125 an day of the week over them.
No idea what a Virgin voyager is, but the Pendolinos are excellent. I am not a PB train expert, but I have experience of BR, and they were dire.
Dire is an exaggeration and they cost the Exchequer £1 bn a year as againat £5 bn a year while charging half as much or less in fares.
You get what you pay for.
That's slightly disingenuous.
Firstly, the 1 billion is taking a very good year pre-privatisation. I can't find the document atm, but I've linked to it before on here. I think some years were two or more billion.
Secondly, the £5 billion includes new infrastructure spending such as Crossrail and GWML electrification;
Thirdly, passenger numbers have doubled.
Fourthly, as a whole the privatised companies are returning money to the treasury. The money sink is the nationalised Network Rail. The same could not be said under BR, where (I think) only Intercity was profitable.
Two billion, you are joking. In good years in the 80s it was nearer £500 million.
(Snip)
Nope, I'm right. Some years it was low, especially immediately prior to privatisation, but that was the problem: inconsistent funding.
"Not even intercity is profitable now. The franchise premiums for those dont anywhere near the subsidy for NR."
Wrong. The services are profitable: as a whole they returned £802 million to the government. It's NR's direct grant they don' pay for, and that's a complex little beast. Crossrail alone accounted for a billion in 2014/5.
No they are not. You cant just quote the franchise operator premiums. The cost is track and train. NR get far more for the intercity lines in grants than the train operators return in premiums. (the figures for provincial lines are total basket cases)
Under BR the entire intercity sector was profitable taking into account both train operation and track costs.
- and under the BR regime where intercity sector used the same tracks as other passenger and freight sectors, Intercity copped all the track costs - and still made a profit.
That's not my understanding of the situation then, or now. Do you have any reports to back that up?
But we'd probably have more dead and injured overall due to people being unable to afford the inevitably higher fares and being forced to use more dangerous means of transport.
Wasn't that one of the results of 911? So many people stopped flying and took to the road that the death toll climbed steeply.
Indeed. I seem to remember it was estimated that an extra 1,500 people died in road traffic accidents in the US as a result of more people choosing to drive rather than fly following 9/11.
Does this take full account of the hundreds of thousands of additional flights which would otherwise have taken place and the prospect that some of the aircraft involved might have crashed or that passengers might have died from other causes, e.g deep vein thrombosis, etc?
No idea what a Virgin voyager is, but the Pendolinos are excellent. I am not a PB train expert, but I have experience of BR, and they were dire.
Dire is an exaggeration and they cost the Exchequer £1 bn a year as againat £5 bn a year while charging half as much or less in fares.
You get what you pay for.
That's slightly disingenuous.
Firstly, the 1 billion is taking a very good year pre-privatisation. I can't find the document atm, but I've linked to it before on here. I think some years were two or more billion.
Secondly, the £5 billion includes new infrastructure spending such as Crossrail and GWML electrification;
Thirdly, passenger numbers have doubled.
Fourthly, as a whole the privatised companies are returning money to the treasury. The money sink is the nationalised Network Rail. The same could not be said under BR, where (I think) only Intercity was profitable.
Two billion, you are joking. In good years in the 80s it was nearer £500 million.
(Snip)
Nope, I'm right. Some years it was low, especially immediately prior to privatisation, but that was the problem: inconsistent funding.
"Not even intercity is profitable now. The franchise premiums for those dont anywhere near the subsidy for NR."
Wrong. The services are profitable: as a whole they returned £802 million to the government. It's NR's direct grant they don' pay for, and that's a complex little beast. Crossrail alone accounted for a billion in 2014/5.
No they are not. You cant just quote the franchise operator premiums. The cost is track and train. NR get far more for the intercity lines in grants than the train operators return in premiums. (the figures for provincial lines are total basket cases)
Under BR the entire intercity sector was profitable taking into account both train operation and track costs.
- and under the BR regime where intercity sector used the same tracks as other passenger and freight sectors, Intercity copped all the track costs - and still made a profit.
That's not my understanding of the situation then, or now. Do you have any reports to back that up?
If you read the last thirty years Modern Railways its all in chapter and verse.
But we'd probably have more dead and injured overall due to people being unable to afford the inevitably higher fares and being forced to use more dangerous means of transport.
Wasn't that one of the results of 911? So many people stopped flying and took to the road that the death toll climbed steeply.
Indeed. I seem to remember it was estimated that an extra 1,500 people died in road traffic accidents in the US as a result of more people choosing to drive rather than fly following 9/11.
Does this take full account of the hundreds of thousands of additional flights which would otherwise have taken place and the prospect that some of the aircraft involved might have crashed or that passengers might have died from other causes, e.g deep vein thrombosis, etc?
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Or perhaps given he was being followed by a video maker and wanted to big a big thing about state of railways / rail nationalization, they engineered the whole thing.
On the day that rail fares were being increased by inflation it was obvious what point he was seeking to make but he had no problem at all in lying about it. Ultimately it was incompetence and laziness. How hard is it to find a ram packed train (whatever that means ) going out of London?
Incidentally, it is worth noting that in the last ten years only one actual passenger has died on the British railway system, in the Grayrigg derailment, although there have been other deaths involving railways (mostly to do with level crossings). At the same time, journey numbers have averaged 1billion a year and there have been very roughly 200 billion passenger miles.
That's actually a very impressive record that compares extremely well with any ten year period you care to name on any other railway network in the world.
Questions of comfort and convenience are different, and complacency was said to have caused Clapham so we must be careful, but there is no doubt that the railways are a vey safe way to travel.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure.
Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant. I am talking about overall subsidy which is still double that of BR.
Any fool can run more trains and get more passengers at a loss if the government makes up the difference.
If BR had been given extra subsidy they could have run more trains, instead they had to cut services and leave trains in sidings (and in some places set up fare structures to deter extra passengers) as their subsidy was fixed and they could not borrow to invest except from the treasury who usually said no.
But we'd probably have more dead and injured overall due to people being unable to afford the inevitably higher fares and being forced to use more dangerous means of transport.
Wasn't that one of the results of 911? So many people stopped flying and took to the road that the death toll climbed steeply.
Indeed. I seem to remember it was estimated that an extra 1,500 people died in road traffic accidents in the US as a result of more people choosing to drive rather than fly following 9/11.
Does this take full account of the hundreds of thousands of additional flights which would otherwise have taken place and the prospect that some of the aircraft involved might have crashed or that passengers might have died from other causes, e.g deep vein thrombosis, etc?
I'm not sure what you mean by hundreds of thousands of additional flights; I don't think very many flights were cancelled after 9/11 (edit: apart from the day or two immediately following), just that they carried fewer people. Given that over 40,000 Americans died every year on the roads in the years subsequent to 9/11 compared to an average of about 40 per year in plane crashes, I doubt that such considerations register on the radar. As for the deep vein thrombosis, people spend far longer sitting in a car than sitting in a plane to travel the same distance, albeit in rather less discomfort.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
@ProfChalmers: Labour's problem in summary: News at Ten #traingate report will convince Corbyn's supporters they're right while deterring floating voters.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No, you can reserve seats on the day with Open Returns.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure
I was astonished on the train to Barmouth yesterday to find it was standing room only, and not much of that (admittedly going on towards Harlech it was a lot quieter).
Indeed, a train has just gone past my window and it still had passengers on it.
The few surviving lines in Wales are doing rather well at the moment.
And wasn't Scotrail budgeted for separately under BR as well?
At London Euston, all the Virgin Trains departures on the big board have reservation levels indicated in each carriage. Coach F on the 9-coach Pendolinos (plus coach U on the 11-coach Pendolinos) are fully UNreserved.
I don't have much sympathy with people who want to run the country getting pissy at the media for intruding upon them somehow. The line to cross is a long one, rarely met, and as irritating and even unfair as it may be at times, you want to be responsible for governing 60 million people, you can expect a lot of shit before during and after it happens and that is the price for seeking or having that power.
I've been following PB since early 2009, I think, and have always derived a great deal of amusement from it as well as information & interest. But surely politics has become much more LOL since Mr Corbyn was elected LotO?
I know that Twitter gives access to the everyday wit of countless people we'd never otherwise encounter, so that must be a factor too.
The great thing about the Intercity 125 is that the power cars are at each end, rather than having the engines vibrating underneath the carriages. One of the more encouraging railway stories of recent times is the decision to build proper carriages to be pulled by proper locomotives for the Trans Pennine route.
The prototype 125 is operating at GCRN.
Attended a talk by the 125 restoration group last week.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure.
Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant. I am talking about overall subsidy which is still double that of BR.
Any fool can run more trains and get more passengers at a loss if the government makes up the difference.
If BR had been given extra subsidy they could have run more trains, instead they had to cut services and leave trains in sidings (and in some places set up fare structures to deter extra passengers) as their subsidy was fixed and they could not borrow to invest except from the treasury who usually said no.
I think they do include them. From the report: "Government support statistics are sourced from the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland an the Welsh Government. They show grants and other expenditure by government on rail, including subsidy payment to or franchise premiums received for each train operating company (TOC)."
"Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant."
LOL. Of course it's relevant.
BR did a very good job at managing a shrinking network. There is no evidence they would have successfully grown passenger numbers as has happened.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Indeed. He'd have been traveling on an invalid ticket if he had a Advance and was not travelling on the booked train.
I've been following PB since early 2009, I think, and have always derived a great deal of amusement from it as well as information & interest. But surely politics has become much more LOL since Mr Corbyn was elected LotO?
I know that Twitter gives access to the everyday wit of countless people we'd never otherwise encounter, so that must be a factor too.
He has been pretty funny. If he isn't doing something crazy, his opponents are acting crazy because they don't know how to beat him, or the Tories (notable I don't include them as his primary opponents) are doing something crazy because they think they can get away with it due to Corbyn.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure
I was astonished on the train to Barmouth yesterday to find it was standing room only, and not much of that (admittedly going on towards Harlech it was a lot quieter).
Indeed, a train has just gone past my window and it still had passengers on it.
The few surviving lines in Wales are doing rather well at the moment.
And wasn't Scotrail budgeted for separately under BR as well?
They might cover the cost of the train lease charges and crewe but that line dosent come nywhere near covering the cost of maintaining the infrastructure (imagine having a motorway with one or two vehicles every hour each way carrying a busload of people to get an idea)
Scotland was bundled in in BR days other than perhaps some funding from the Strathclyde PTE for extra suburban services in Glasgow.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Or perhaps given he was being followed by a video maker and wanted to big a big thing about state of railways / rail nationalization, they engineered the whole thing.
On the day that rail fares were being increased by inflation it was obvious what point he was seeking to make but he had no problem at all in lying about it. Ultimately it was incompetence and laziness. How hard is it to find a ram packed train (whatever that means ) going out of London?
Every ram packed train he had to get out of London is another day spent away from N1.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
I've been following PB since early 2009, I think, and have always derived a great deal of amusement from it as well as information & interest. But surely politics has become much more LOL since Mr Corbyn was elected LotO?
I know that Twitter gives access to the everyday wit of countless people we'd never otherwise encounter, so that must be a factor too.
He has been pretty funny. If he isn't doing something crazy, his opponents are acting crazy because they don't know how to beat him, or the Tories (notable I don't include them as his primary opponents) are doing something crazy because they think they can get away with it due to Corbyn.
I've been following PB since early 2009, I think, and have always derived a great deal of amusement from it as well as information & interest. But surely politics has become much more LOL since Mr Corbyn was elected LotO?
I know that Twitter gives access to the everyday wit of countless people we'd never otherwise encounter, so that must be a factor too.
He has been pretty funny. If he isn't doing something crazy, his opponents are acting crazy because they don't know how to beat him, or the Tories (notable I don't include them as his primary opponents) are doing something crazy because they think they can get away with it due to Corbyn.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure
I was astonished on the train to Barmouth yesterday to find it was standing room only, and not much of that (admittedly going on towards Harlech it was a lot quieter).
Indeed, a train has just gone past my window and it still had passengers on it.
The few surviving lines in Wales are doing rather well at the moment.
And wasn't Scotrail budgeted for separately under BR as well?
They might cover the cost of the train lease charges and crewe but that line dosent come nywhere near covering the cost of maintaining the infrastructure (imagine having a motorway with one or two vehicles every hour each way carrying a busload of people to get an idea)
Scotland was bundled in in BR days other than perhaps some funding from the Strathclyde PTE for extra suburban services in Glasgow.
The last significant expenditure on that stretch of line was in 1955.*
*A new bridge was put in about two years ago at substantial cost just north of Harlech. However, it was built to carry the road and the railway was added after the digging of foundations for the road bridge caused the rail bridge to collapse in an embarrassing heap.
Edit - but if you want real durability, the Far Northern line was last relaid by the LMS in I think 1925. That track is still there and still in use - still with the LMS stamp on all the metal!
I've been following PB since early 2009, I think, and have always derived a great deal of amusement from it as well as information & interest. But surely politics has become much more LOL since Mr Corbyn was elected LotO?
Yes I don't think you can beat Corbyn's time as leader, but Brown had a run of ludicrous stories almost from the moment he became PM, like following Obama round a kitchen, to the infamous Elvis impersonator.
I can't believe that traingate has made headline national news, on the telly and in the papers.
It's about a seat. On the train.
I can only conclude Britain is a safe and secure country, and there's nothing much going on at the moment.
a) You're right, not much is happening domestically b) It involves a celebrity tycoon in a spat with a wildly popular/hated political figure, good for headlines c) It's funny
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
No you get kicked off trains where you have been given a substantial discount to nominate a specific train (ie. Advance tickets) and don't catch that train. Anyone can make a reservation when purchasing a standard ticket. It's free. That's why huge numbers of notionally "reserved" seats don't actually get sat in and trains aren't always as full as it appears.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
An open return lets you travel back within one calendar month of your original departure, you can make reservations at the time of the original booking, or by 6pm on the day before your return.
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
The great thing about the Intercity 125 is that the power cars are at each end, rather than having the engines vibrating underneath the carriages. One of the more encouraging railway stories of recent times is the decision to build proper carriages to be pulled by proper locomotives for the Trans Pennine route.
The prototype 125 is operating at GCRN.
Attended a talk by the 125 restoration group last week.
It was fabulous.
My favourite train!
... one anorak please!
"We must be SAD! Literally SAD!"
Difficult to remember one's sad when one's laughing so much.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
The one group of people not to listen to when selecting great movies is movie critics. They'll collectively jump on anything different or unique enough, even if it is crap, and call it excellent. They're also even more prone to groupthink than normal people.
Mulholland Drive? Never watched it. Hear it's good from people whose views I trust, though when I see 'surreal' as a descriptor that's usually an indication you're about to see pretentious artsy bollocks.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure.
Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant. I am talking about overall subsidy which is still double that of BR.
Any fool can run more trains and get more passengers at a loss if the government makes up the difference.
If BR had been given extra subsidy they could have run more trains, instead they had to cut services and leave trains in sidings (and in some places set up fare structures to deter extra passengers) as their subsidy was fixed and they could not borrow to invest except from the treasury who usually said no.
I think they do include them. From the report: "Government support statistics are sourced from the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland an the Welsh Government. They show grants and other expenditure by government on rail, including subsidy payment to or franchise premiums received for each train operating company (TOC)."
"Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant."
LOL. Of course it's relevant.
BR did a very good job at managing a shrinking network. There is no evidence they would have successfully grown passenger numbers as has happened.
The extent to which recent increases in pax numbers are due to train operator effective marketing and what is down to economic growth and increasing road congestion (psrticularly untercity and provincial road congestion which reached levels only previously seen in major conurbations at about the same time as privatisation is a hotly dabated topic in the industry.
BR were increasing passengers very fast after the 1980s sectorization reforms, until the idiot Major thought it a good idea to raise interest rates to stratospheric levels to support ERM membership stuffing the economy and raising unemployment to 3 - 4 million with consequent fall in pax numbers.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
The one group of people not to listen to when selecting great movies is movie critics. They'll collectively jump on anything different or unique enough, even if it is crap, and call it excellent. They're also even more prone to groupthink than normal people.
Mulholland Drive? Never watched it. Hear it's good from people whose views I trust, though when I see 'surreal' as a descriptor that's usually an indication you're about to see pretentious artsy bollocks.
Has a very good lesbian sex scene in it. Very enjoyable and arty.
He still doesn't get that being LotO means that different rules apply, does he? He's still acting as if he's Bob from the Rules and Privileges Sub-Committee.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
An open return lets you travel back within one calendar month of your original departure, you can make reservations at the time of the original booking, or by 6pm on the day of your return.
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
Bloody hell! No need to OUT-SAD me, man!
I only ever reserved seats when buying advance tickets online. Last year a couple of times I was able to travel from Euston to Coventry for only £9 one-way on Virgin.
Have you included the Welsh and Scottish vast subsidies that their train operators get which dont appear in DfT figures? I think the same applies to NR in Wales/Scotland but not sure
I was astonished on the train to Barmouth yesterday to find it was standing room only, and not much of that (admittedly going on towards Harlech it was a lot quieter).
Indeed, a train has just gone past my window and it still had passengers on it.
The few surviving lines in Wales are doing rather well at the moment.
And wasn't Scotrail budgeted for separately under BR as well?
They might cover the cost of the train lease charges and crewe but that line dosent come nywhere near covering the cost of maintaining the infrastructure (imagine having a motorway with one or two vehicles every hour each way carrying a busload of people to get an idea)
Scotland was bundled in in BR days other than perhaps some funding from the Strathclyde PTE for extra suburban services in Glasgow.
The last significant expenditure on that stretch of line was in 1955.*
*A new bridge was put in about two years ago at substantial cost just north of Harlech. However, it was built to carry the road and the railway was added after the digging of foundations for the road bridge caused the rail bridge to collapse in an embarrassing heap.
Edit - but if you want real durability, the Far Northern line was last relaid by the LMS in I think 1925. That track is still there and still in use - still with the LMS stamp on all the metal!
Most of the cost is the day to day maintaining of the track and the thousands of bridges, culverts, tunnels and embankments - not to mention ripping out BRs ecpnomic radio signalling and installing expensive cable requiring ERTMS a couple of years back.
There might be some old LMS track in sidings and slow speed dear ends, but all 161m of the far north line. Hmm.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
I can't believe that traingate has made headline national news, on the telly and in the papers.
It's about a seat. On the train.
I can only conclude Britain is a safe and secure country, and there's nothing much going on at the moment.
There is, but Labour under Corbyn is now incapable of failing to make any dent in the news agenda. I recall that they did on both tax credits and disability benefits, but since then he's lost the excellent services of the then Shadow Secretary of State for DWP.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
An open return lets you travel back within one calendar month of your original departure, you can make reservations at the time of the original booking, or by 6pm on the day of your return.
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
Bloody hell! No need to OUT-SAD me, man!
I only ever reserved seats when buying advance tickets online. Last year a couple of times I was able to travel from Euston to Coventry for only £9 one-way on Virgin.
I'm someone who buys an open (first class) return at least once a month for work, because I don't know how long I'll be in London for.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
An open return lets you travel back within one calendar month of your original departure, you can make reservations at the time of the original booking, or by 6pm on the day of your return.
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
Bloody hell! No need to OUT-SAD me, man!
I only ever reserved seats when buying advance tickets online. Last year a couple of times I was able to travel from Euston to Coventry for only £9 one-way on Virgin.
I'm someone who buys an open (first class) return at least once a month for work, because I don't know how long I'll be in London for.
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
The one group of people not to listen to when selecting great movies is movie critics. They'll collectively jump on anything different or unique enough, even if it is crap, and call it excellent. They're also even more prone to groupthink than normal people.
Mulholland Drive? Never watched it. Hear it's good from people whose views I trust, though when I see 'surreal' as a descriptor that's usually an indication you're about to see pretentious artsy bollocks.
Has a very good lesbian sex scene in it. Very enjoyable and arty.
Ah. Well, artsy stuff is not without its merits, I'll admit.
Most of the cost is the day to day maintaining of the track and the thousands of bridges, culverts, tunnels and embankments - not to mention ripping out BRs ecpnomic radio signalling and installing expensive cable requiring ERTMS a couple of years back.
There might be some old LMS track in sidings and slow speed dear ends, but all 161m of the far north line. Hmm.
It was relaid to a very high specification because it was thought it would be needed to resupply the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow. In the end this was not a significant burden and after 1964 it was seldom used by freight - only light passenger trains whose speed does not usually exceed 45mph. So it's still there. The durability of a railway's permanent way is often very remarkable - even the oak-laid Talyllyn permanent way lasted with minimal care for over 90 years.
Quite apart from all the blatant lying and deceit involved in this story, one would have thought that there would have been someone around in the Labour leader's team to have the not too demanding nous to have arranged a reserved seat for him and indeed for his entourage. It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My own hunch is that they bought open return tickets, and missed the train they had reservations for.
Advance tickets you mean.
No open returns I mean.
Open returns come with reservations? I thought you were kicked off trains if you don't travel on the train you have reservations for?
An open return lets you travel back within one calendar month of your original departure, you can make reservations at the time of the original booking, or by 6pm on the day of your return.
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
Bloody hell! No need to OUT-SAD me, man!
I only ever reserved seats when buying advance tickets online. Last year a couple of times I was able to travel from Euston to Coventry for only £9 one-way on Virgin.
I'm someone who buys an open (first class) return at least once a month for work, because I don't know how long I'll be in London for.
Well la-di-bloody-da
Worse part of my week is when I have to catch the Manchester to Dore train on the Northern Service or the East Midlands Trains service, they have no first class section. THE HORROR, THE HORROR.
Thank Allah for Trans Pennine Express.
If you asked me, if I had to choose between going on a train without a first class section or go to Guantanamo Bay, I'd probably choose the latter
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
The extent to which recent increases in pax numbers are due to train operator effective marketing and what is down to economic growth and increasing road congestion (psrticularly untercity and provincial road congestion which reached levels only previously seen in major conurbations at about the same time as privatisation is a hotly dabated topic in the industry.
BR were increasing passengers very fast after the 1980s sectorization reforms, until the idiot Major thought it a good idea to raise interest rates to stratospheric levels to support ERM membership stuffing the economy and raising unemployment to 3 - 4 million with consequent fall in pax numbers.
Again, LOL. Look at the chart in passenger numbers: the 1980s increase was tiny in comparison to what happened afterwards.
(And yes, I've praised sectorisation many times in the past on here. It shows what happens when the government became hands-off and gave management more responsibility).
Look at the recent line closure of the Settle and Carlisle because of the failure of the hillside. Twenty years ago BR would be looking to close the line because of that. Similarly, the problems on the Dover to Folkestone line.
Instead, NR just gets on and fix them. It's a can-do will-do mindset issue.
This conversation's funny. I'm coming up with reports, charts and figures: you're coming up with hearsay and excuses. So please, let's have real facts and figures from you to play with.
Comments
Under BR the entire intercity sector was profitable taking into account both train operation and track costs.
- and under the BR regime where intercity sector used the same tracks as other passenger and freight sectors, Intercity copped all the track costs - and still made a profit.
And BR managed grants of about £500 per year in the late 80s despite paying for total upgrades of both classic boat routes from London to the under construction channel tunnel - far, far more work than NRs small element of the overall crossrail project.
It's the sort of very basic thing, very basic people such as you and I undertake every time we travel long distances on a train. Didn't this occur to anyone?
My timeline is full of conspiracy theories, Branson hate and media bias from Corbynistas.
I've never seen so much outrage.
Me - I was there.
Someone left a duvet and a pillow on my bed, so I'll have to sleep on the floor
And adding from your edit: look at the chart in my link.
But let's take some *facts* into consideration. Network Rail's direct grant was £3.8 billion last year (1). Crossrail took over a billion of that.
And look at this chart of subsidy-per-passenger journey (I know, Wiki) (2)
(1): http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/18842/rail-finance-statistical-release-2014-15.pdf
(2): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail#/media/File:UK_Rail_subsidy_1985-2014_(in_2014_prices).png
Maybe it's Guardian Branson-hate
That's actually a very impressive record that compares extremely well with any ten year period you care to name on any other railway network in the world.
Questions of comfort and convenience are different, and complacency was said to have caused Clapham so we must be careful, but there is no doubt that the railways are a vey safe way to travel.
Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant. I am talking about overall subsidy which is still double that of BR.
Any fool can run more trains and get more passengers at a loss if the government makes up the difference.
If BR had been given extra subsidy they could have run more trains, instead they had to cut services and leave trains in sidings (and in some places set up fare structures to deter extra passengers) as their subsidy was fixed and they could not borrow to invest except from the treasury who usually said no.
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/768194360903102464
Easy - just try travelling on a trainload of Derby County supporters out of St. Pancras on their way home after a Saturday match in the Capital.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/768195064719966208
Indeed, a train has just gone past my window and it still had passengers on it.
The few surviving lines in Wales are doing rather well at the moment.
And wasn't Scotrail budgeted for separately under BR as well?
I know that Twitter gives access to the everyday wit of countless people we'd never otherwise encounter, so that must be a factor too.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/768196784078352384
are sourced from the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland an the Welsh Government. They show grants and other expenditure by government on rail, including subsidy payment to or franchise premiums received for each train operating company (TOC)."
"Subsidy per passenger journey is irrelevant."
LOL. Of course it's relevant.
BR did a very good job at managing a shrinking network. There is no evidence they would have successfully grown passenger numbers as has happened.
All this fuss over a Virgin Berth
It's about a seat. On the train.
I can only conclude Britain is a safe and secure country, and there's nothing much going on at the moment.
Scotland was bundled in in BR days other than perhaps some funding from the Strathclyde PTE for extra suburban services in Glasgow.
Have fun everyone.
*A new bridge was put in about two years ago at substantial cost just north of Harlech. However, it was built to carry the road and the railway was added after the digging of foundations for the road bridge caused the rail bridge to collapse in an embarrassing heap.
Edit - but if you want real durability, the Far Northern line was last relaid by the LMS in I think 1925. That track is still there and still in use - still with the LMS stamp on all the metal!
Is what it's about.
b) It involves a celebrity tycoon in a spat with a wildly popular/hated political figure, good for headlines
c) It's funny
The critics have got this right IMO:
"Mulholland Drive leads the pack in list of 21st century's top films
BBC Culture poll of 177 film critics around the world puts David Lynch’s 2001 surrealist masterpiece in top spot"
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/aug/23/mulholland-drive-david-lynch-21st-century-top-films-bbc-poll
Even if you miss your reservation, you're still allowed to travel back on a later (or earlier) train, within one calendar month of your original departure.
Mulholland Drive? Never watched it. Hear it's good from people whose views I trust, though when I see 'surreal' as a descriptor that's usually an indication you're about to see pretentious artsy bollocks.
BR were increasing passengers very fast after the 1980s sectorization reforms, until the idiot Major thought it a good idea to raise interest rates to stratospheric levels to support ERM membership stuffing the economy and raising unemployment to 3 - 4 million with consequent fall in pax numbers.
I've got this plan right? I'm gonna put a bomb on a crow, then fly it into one of them towers filled with Jews and slags.
Chris Morris at his best, oh and spark plugs are Jewish
I'll get my dressing gown. Good night, all/nos da i gyd.
I only ever reserved seats when buying advance tickets online. Last year a couple of times I was able to travel from Euston to Coventry for only £9 one-way on Virgin.
There might be some old LMS track in sidings and slow speed dear ends, but all 161m of the far north line. Hmm.
Good night.
Thank Allah for Trans Pennine Express.
If you asked me, if I had to choose between going on a train without a first class section or go to Guantanamo Bay, I'd probably choose the latter
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/22056/passenger-rail-usage-2015-16-q4.pdf
(And yes, I've praised sectorisation many times in the past on here. It shows what happens when the government became hands-off and gave management more responsibility).
Look at the recent line closure of the Settle and Carlisle because of the failure of the hillside. Twenty years ago BR would be looking to close the line because of that. Similarly, the problems on the Dover to Folkestone line.
Instead, NR just gets on and fix them. It's a can-do will-do mindset issue.
This conversation's funny. I'm coming up with reports, charts and figures: you're coming up with hearsay and excuses. So please, let's have real facts and figures from you to play with.
POTUS poll.
Trump has work to do.