@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
And yet they just don't want to move on from it - it's not just Corbyn fighting yesterday's battles.
Two Taxi Tim Farron must be encouraged by the LibDems 9% level of support in this latest poll .... surely just about their highest score since last year's G.E.
I think the Lib Dems have an opportunity, but we don't know if it will be realised after them being invisible for so long. Their case goes something like this:
A lot of people think the Coalition government worked much better than the one that followed. People who voted Remain will particularly think that because of the Brexit disaster (from their POV), but not just Remainers. We can generalise this goodwill to say Lib Dems bring a moderate and competent influence to politics across the board. So it's a just a step for people who might otherwise vote Conservative or Labour to decide we are worth voting for and to switch their votes to us.
I'd consider the Lib Dems if they weren't so Europhile. So I guess they wouldn't consider me .
Am hearing that by close of play around 150k people will have become registered supporters in the Labour leadership contest
Blimey, they should have made it £100 a pop.
Holy Hell.
That's stunning if true.
It's either a moment of surprise revolution, or incredible blindness - Labour membership has never been more popular in modern times, and either they really are more reflective of the wider public than we think, or might prove appealing to it more than we think, or it is a party making itself unelectable in a really extreme way by total choice.
I feel quite sorry for the Labour Party, being taken over by a bunch of whackjob lefties. One can't help feeling the coup attempt has flooded the party with new and more hardcore/radical members, it will make Corbyn even more entrenched, the Labour Party even more left wing, and even further removed from power.
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
Old folk - the children of Beveridge - have written Labour off.
And the Tories have been throwing money at them for six years :-)
They know their client vote.
I know of no pensioner who is more concerned for themselves than they are for their offspring. You may wish to consider the idea that pensioners maybe more willing to vote Conservative has bugger all to do with having "money thrown at them" but something to do with people who have seen life making a mature judgement about which party is likely to produce the best life chances for their children and, especially, grandchildren.
May hurting UKIP more than Labour is the simple takeaway.
UKIP unchanged since the general election though however that would be the biggest Tory and Labour gap since the 1987 general election, so maybe May is the new Thatcher and whether Labour pick Corbyn or Smith it does not make a real difference, they are just choosing between Foot and Kinnock!
Unlikely though. New PMs always enjoy a honeymoon but they do not usually long. I would be surprised if we see figure like this in mid-September.
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
Which is why we had a referendum in the first place, and also why Leave won it.
Our status quo ante as an EU member simply wasn't politically sustainable.
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
Must be a rare occurrence when a party in power, jumps +10 ?
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
I remember a fantastic prediction about Labour's performance if (1) had occurred.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
May hurting UKIP more than Labour is the simple takeaway.
UKIP unchanged since the general election though however that would be the biggest Tory and Labour gap since the 1987 general election, so maybe May is the new Thatcher and whether Labour pick Corbyn or Smith it does not make a real difference, they are just choosing between Foot and Kinnock!
Unlikely though. New PMs always enjoy a honeymoon but they do not usually long. I would be surprised if we see figure like this in mid-September.
Well, heading into silly season aren't we, so they might be able to eke out the honeymoon for a bit longer, but not by much. Brexit or no Brexit we were storing up some problems in any case.
I just can't see Owen Smith being the type to inspire 150,000 sign ups. Not even 50,000.
Well quite. Is it just me or is there a resemblance between Owen Smith and the hapless Hollande?
The kindest thing I can say about Smith is that he wears his left wing credentials extremely lightly. Perhaps he's had a Damascene conversion from his days as a Blairite loyalist.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
It was the policy platform of the Tories that created the "nasty party" image, not the way that Thatcher handled the dispatch box. I would hate to see a reversal of Tory modernisation, the death of my part of the party, but I had no reason to worry watching May.
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
Must be a rare occurrence when a party in power, jumps +10 ?
I did some research a couple of weeks ago for a potential thread, happened when Major replaced Thatcher
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
Must be a rare occurrence when a party in power, jumps +10 ?
Calm down dears. Yes, Theresa May has made an excellent start, exactly as one would expect, but it makes no sense to take much notice of polling in the current circumstances. She is getting a new-leader bounce, as usually happens. Hell, even Gordon Brown did. And (as we see clearly on here) Kippers/Kipper-inclined are projecting the impossible onto the Brexit negotiations, as indeed are some of those who voted Remain or who wanted an EEA-style deal, so some of that support will fall away; of necessity, some of those groups are going to be disappointed.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
I just can't see Owen Smith being the type to inspire 150,000 sign ups. Not even 50,000.
Well quite. Is it just me or is there a resemblance between Owen Smith and the hapless Hollande?
First time I saw a picture of Smith I thought it was Ben Elton – but that’s coming from a chap who often mistakes Corbyn for Obi Wan and Angela Eagle for Eddy Izzard…
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Thatcher and Corbyn are similar in that both had/have the courage of their convictions. It's an attractive quality. However, there is evidence that Thatcher's thinking evolved over time, a charge that cannot be fairly levelled at Mr Corbyn.
Am hearing that by close of play around 150k people will have become registered supporters in the Labour leadership contest
Blimey, they should have made it £100 a pop.
Holy Hell.
That's stunning if true.
It's either a moment of surprise revolution, or incredible blindness - Labour membership has never been more popular in modern times, and either they really are more reflective of the wider public than we think, or might prove appealing to it more than we think, or it is a party making itself unelectable in a really extreme way by total choice.
I feel quite sorry for the Labour Party, being taken over by a bunch of whackjob lefties. One can't help feeling the coup attempt has flooded the party with new and more hardcore/radical members, it will make Corbyn even more entrenched, the Labour Party even more left wing, and even further removed from power.
[chuckles]
How many £3ers have become £25ers is key. If your vote in 2015 won it for Comrade Corbyn, I'd imagine you'd fork out £25 to keep him there.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
And yet they just don't want to move on from it - it's not just Corbyn fighting yesterday's battles.
Exactly. We not in the 1980s anymore, we are in the 2010s. Let's fight the battles of today - there are plenty of them.
And (as we see clearly on here) Kippers/Kipper-inclined are projecting the impossible onto the Brexit negotiations, as indeed are some of those who voted Remain or who wanted an EEA-style deal, so some of that support will fall away; of necessity, some of those groups are going to be disappointed.
True enough. She seems keener on keeping the kipper inclined support at present that the EEA crowd, which is a shame, but neither will be very happy no doubt.
Just back from three hours in the dentist's chair (which inexplicably cost me the grand sum of £32!). From a first watch of the May v Corbyn bit she completely schooled him and looked like Thatcher as I remember her as a schoolboy. Her personality is better suited to nailing JC to the cross than Dave's ever was. He'll be over the moon by the time the recess arrives, a great opening Wednesday for the new PM.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Miss Apocalypse also seems to forget that after Thatcher the Conservatives won a general election with the highest number of votes ever cast for one party.
Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history.
Corbyn attacking Matron for the falling proportion of younger people buying their houses between 1998 and 2016 ie two thirds government by his own party, and turning querulous when it was pointed out.
Dear God, that man is a gormless oaf.
He doesn't see the Blair period as anything to do with him, that's the whole point.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
I just can't see Owen Smith being the type to inspire 150,000 sign ups. Not even 50,000.
Well quite. Is it just me or is there a resemblance between Owen Smith and the hapless Hollande?
First time I saw a picture of Smith I thought it was Ben Elton – but that’s coming from a chap who often mistakes Corbyn for Obi Wan and Angela Eagle for Eddy Izzard…
Crumbs, when did a party ever shift 10 points either way between polls? Admittedly a gap since April and the April one looks a bit dodgy if the Tories were at 30% and UKIP 20%!
But blimey, this doesn't half look good for May - and she's hardly started yet!
Off the top of my head
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
Must be a rare occurrence when a party in power, jumps +10 ?
I did some research a couple of weeks ago for a potential thread, happened when Major replaced Thatcher
May hurting UKIP more than Labour is the simple takeaway.
UKIP unchanged since the general election though however that would be the biggest Tory and Labour gap since the 1987 general election, so maybe May is the new Thatcher and whether Labour pick Corbyn or Smith it does not make a real difference, they are just choosing between Foot and Kinnock!
Unlikely though. New PMs always enjoy a honeymoon but they do not usually long. I would be surprised if we see figure like this in mid-September.
Well, heading into silly season aren't we, so they might be able to eke out the honeymoon for a bit longer, but not by much. Brexit or no Brexit we were storing up some problems in any case.
Then we have conference season, Labour's will be a bloodbath, Lib Dems will be somnolent and May's debut will be last so she ought to come out with a pretty good lead.
And (as we see clearly on here) Kippers/Kipper-inclined are projecting the impossible onto the Brexit negotiations, as indeed are some of those who voted Remain or who wanted an EEA-style deal, so some of that support will fall away; of necessity, some of those groups are going to be disappointed.
True enough. She seems keener on keeping the kipper inclined support at present that the EEA crowd, which is a shame, but neither will be very happy no doubt.
Ultimately, it is not possible that the competing promises of the various Leave campaigns can all be true.
For example...
We can have a free trade agreement with China. but We cannot do that and protect our steelworks.
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Guardian ICM Nov 1990, just shortly after Sir Geoffrey Howe resigned, Thatcher was still PM (and before the first ballot of the Tory leadership contest)
Con 33 Lab 49 Lib Dems 13
Guardian ICM Dec 1990, shortly after John Major had become PM
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
That Scotland figure should give the Tories several seats. I don't particularly believe it - big MoEs for unweighted subsamples - but John Major's Conservatives won 11 seats with 25.5% of the Scottish vote in 1992. The big SNP share makes that unrealistic now but 24% ought to deliver half a dozen.
Also, would be fascinating to see the breakdown for 'the north'. Take out Newcastle, S Yorks, Burnhamshire and so on (and Hagueshire on the other side), and I'd guess that it would look very healthy for the Blues across the W Yorks / Lancs marginals.
LOL, as much chance of them getting 6 as me being a Dutchman
How many constituency seats did the Conservatives win at this year's Scottish election, malcolm? Give you a clue - it wasn't 6. (Yes, there are more up for grabs but it wouldn't make that much difference.
Calm down dears. Yes, Theresa May has made an excellent start, exactly as one would expect, but it makes no sense to take much notice of polling in the current circumstances. She is getting a new-leader bounce, as usually happens. Hell, even Gordon Brown did. And (as we see clearly on here) Kippers/Kipper-inclined are projecting the impossible onto the Brexit negotiations, as indeed are some of those who voted Remain or who wanted an EEA-style deal, so some of that support will fall away; of necessity, some of those groups are going to be disappointed
The racket from the Leadsomites back pedaling is deafening!
And the "leaning into the dispatch box a la Thatcher" is over analysis. May will have learned that at the Oxford Union as an undergraduate.....indeed presumptuous leaning was frowned upon...(which May, as Librarian) could get away with...
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Am hearing that by close of play around 150k people will have become registered supporters in the Labour leadership contest
Blimey, they should have made it £100 a pop.
Holy Hell.
That's stunning if true.
It's either a moment of surprise revolution, or incredible blindness - Labour membership has never been more popular in modern times, and either they really are more reflective of the wider public than we think, or might prove appealing to it more than we think, or it is a party making itself unelectable in a really extreme way by total choice.
I feel quite sorry for the Labour Party, being taken over by a bunch of whackjob lefties. One can't help feeling the coup attempt has flooded the party with new and more hardcore/radical members, it will make Corbyn even more entrenched, the Labour Party even more left wing, and even further removed from power.
[chuckles]
How many £3ers have become £25ers is key. If your vote in 2015 won it for Comrade Corbyn, I'd imagine you'd fork out £25 to keep him there.
I dunno, I could use the money to fund my trainspotting habit
It wasn't just the voice, it was the way she twisted her shoulder and lowered her body into it.
Notice how May is leaning in with the left shoulder though? Bad sign.
She's facing the majority of the house and not the speaker....
It was only a joke, I assure you.
Although, I see that means she was turning her back on the Speaker, symbolically rejecting our traditional values and system. Clearly an anti-establishment radical.
''Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history. ''
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
It was indeed, Mr. Taffys. If I remember correctly it was after Blair had won the 1997 election and it was our current PM who at the Conservative Party conference said, "Some people call us the nasty party" or words very similar to that.
Just seen the Lab retention figure with don't knows: 58%
42% - that's nearly 4m 2015 voters - will not commit to Labour.
Corbyn loses Labour 4 million voters. The Lib Dem/UKIP offset is only about 600k.
Labour would poll 20-25% in an election if that were true.
Presumably there are other DKs for the Tories, and offsetting gains (if limited), which is why the final figure is 29%. Still, no reason to assume that it's a floor to Labour's support.
We need a strong opposition in this country and yes Smith leaves a lot to be desired but Corbyn is a disaster, and Smith will step down if there is someone better.
Please, please please everyone if u love ur country register to save her Majesty's Loyal opposition.
Tories, I know u love ur country more than party, do ur duty hold ur nose and if u can register as a Labour supporter and vote for Owen Smith.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
It was the policy platform of the Tories that created the "nasty party" image, not the way that Thatcher handled the dispatch box. I would hate to see a reversal of Tory modernisation, the death of my part of the party, but I had no reason to worry watching May.
I don't think May will reverse modernisation either. I wasn't trying to imply that Thatcher at the dispatch box created the nasty party image in my post, I'm sorry that that part of my post got a bit lost in translation! I agree that it was the policy platform that created that nasty party image. I interpreted many of the Thatcher/May comparisons to be comparing the two in terms of policy as well as styles at the dispatch box.
''Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history. ''
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
It was indeed, Mr. Taffys. If I remember correctly it was after Blair had won the 1997 election and it was our current PM who at the Conservative Party conference said, "Some people call us the nasty party" or words very similar to that.
"The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the Earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it. Specifically, what was the point of the Labour party, again? Anyone got any idea? Galadriel, spokeself for Lothlorien.
Two Taxi Tim Farron must be encouraged by the LibDems 9% level of support in this latest poll .... surely just about their highest score since last year's G.E.
I think the Lib Dems have an opportunity, but we don't know if it will be realised after them being invisible for so long. Their case goes something like this:
A lot of people think the Coalition government worked much better than the one that followed. People who voted Remain will particularly think that because of the Brexit disaster (from their POV), but not just Remainers. We can generalise this goodwill to say Lib Dems bring a moderate and competent influence to politics across the board. So it's a just a step for people who might otherwise vote Conservative or Labour to decide we are worth voting for and to switch their votes to us.
I'd consider the Lib Dems if they weren't so Europhile. So I guess they wouldn't consider me .
There was a small offshoot of Lib Dems for Leave.
There is a clear argument that being Liberal means embracing the 80% of the world which is not in the EU and rejecting the protectionism of the EU. Also the Lib Dems are very much for localism and implementing the EU subsidiarity principle instead of EU centralism.
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
The last one looked like an outlier. But, there's nothing surprising about this. People on the Right who were pissed off with David Cameron's fake renegotiation have switched back to the Tories.
''Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history. ''
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
It was indeed, Mr. Taffys. If I remember correctly it was after Blair had won the 1997 election and it was our current PM who at the Conservative Party conference said, "Some people call us the nasty party" or words very similar to that.
2002 party conference.
Yes, she was probably the bravest of the modernisers at that time to make that speech.
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Miss Apocalypse also seems to forget that after Thatcher the Conservatives won a general election with the highest number of votes ever cast for one party.
Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history.
I haven't forgotten that. However that was under Major, who is on left of the Conservative party. Much of the Tory leaders after him were much more Thatcherite - Hague, IDS etc - which voters didn't like.
Two Taxi Tim Farron must be encouraged by the LibDems 9% level of support in this latest poll .... surely just about their highest score since last year's G.E.
I think the Lib Dems have an opportunity, but we don't know if it will be realised after them being invisible for so long. Their case goes something like this:
A lot of people think the Coalition government worked much better than the one that followed. People who voted Remain will particularly think that because of the Brexit disaster (from their POV), but not just Remainers. We can generalise this goodwill to say Lib Dems bring a moderate and competent influence to politics across the board. So it's a just a step for people who might otherwise vote Conservative or Labour to decide we are worth voting for and to switch their votes to us.
I'd consider the Lib Dems if they weren't so Europhile. So I guess they wouldn't consider me .
There was a small offshoot of Lib Dems for Leave.
There is a clear argument that being Liberal means embracing the 80% of the world which is not in the EU and rejecting the protectionism of the EU. Also the Lib Dems are very much for localism and implementing the EU subsidiarity principle instead of EU centralism.
Nick Clegg has now taken over as Lib Dem spokesperson on EU matters so lets hope he reverses Tim Farrons approach to re-join the EU.
Thanks David. I'll have a look. I'm feeling very Tory atm, but you never know, it could all go tits up, and Labour clearly aren't interested in actually running the country.
Two Taxi Tim Farron must be encouraged by the LibDems 9% level of support in this latest poll .... surely just about their highest score since last year's G.E.
I think the Lib Dems have an opportunity, but we don't know if it will be realised after them being invisible for so long. Their case goes something like this:
A lot of people think the Coalition government worked much better than the one that followed. People who voted Remain will particularly think that because of the Brexit disaster (from their POV), but not just Remainers. We can generalise this goodwill to say Lib Dems bring a moderate and competent influence to politics across the board. So it's a just a step for people who might otherwise vote Conservative or Labour to decide we are worth voting for and to switch their votes to us.
I'd consider the Lib Dems if they weren't so Europhile. So I guess they wouldn't consider me .
There was a small offshoot of Lib Dems for Leave.
There is a clear argument that being Liberal means embracing the 80% of the world which is not in the EU and rejecting the protectionism of the EU. Also the Lib Dems are very much for localism and implementing the EU subsidiarity principle instead of EU centralism.
Nick Clegg has now taken over as Lib Dem spokesperson on EU matters so lets hope he reverses Tim Farrons approach to re-join the EU.
I would say that is most unlikely, given his background.
There will always be a constituency that would support closer ties with Europe. Even if Brexit goes very well, that constituency will be there, although in such cicurmstances not really a vote winner.
We need a strong opposition in this country and yes Smith leaves a lot to be desired but Corbyn is a disaster, and Smith will step down if there is someone better.
Please, please please everyone if u love ur country register to save her Majesty's Loyal opposition.
Tories, I know u love ur country more than party, do ur duty hold ur nose and if u can register as a Labour supporter and vote for Owen Smith.
Owen Smith wants a second referendum. Comrade Corbyn for me. But I won't vote. It's not my fight.
"The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the Earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it. Specifically, what was the point of the Labour party, again? Anyone got any idea? Galadriel, spokeself for Lothlorien.
''Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history. ''
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
It was indeed, Mr. Taffys. If I remember correctly it was after Blair had won the 1997 election and it was our current PM who at the Conservative Party conference said, "Some people call us the nasty party" or words very similar to that.
2002 party conference.
Yes, she was probably the bravest of the modernisers at that time to make that speech.
TM: - "There's a lot we need to do in this party of ours. Our base is too narrow and so, occasionally, are our sympathies. You know what some people call us - the nasty party.
I know that's unfair. You know that's unfair but it's the people out there we need to convince - and we can only do that by avoiding behaviour and attitudes that play into the hands of our opponents. No more glib moralising, no more hypocritical finger-wagging.
We need to reach out to all areas of our society."
May's recent leadership speech reveals she's not changed at all in the fundamentals.
Two Taxi Tim Farron must be encouraged by the LibDems 9% level of support in this latest poll .... surely just about their highest score since last year's G.E.
I think the Lib Dems have an opportunity, but we don't know if it will be realised after them being invisible for so long. Their case goes something like this:
A lot of people think the Coalition government worked much better than the one that followed. People who voted Remain will particularly think that because of the Brexit disaster (from their POV), but not just Remainers. We can generalise this goodwill to say Lib Dems bring a moderate and competent influence to politics across the board. So it's a just a step for people who might otherwise vote Conservative or Labour to decide we are worth voting for and to switch their votes to us.
One of the main problems for the LibDems is that they lost so many of their seats in the West Country, where the demographics seem likely to shift ever more in the Tories' favour over the coming years, in terms of relative wealth and age profile.
I agree with that. And also their inability to be heard. Nick Clegg made a reasonable and not necessarily anti-Brexit, comment this morning that nobody knows what Brexit actually means. If we are all Brexiteers now there is scope to challenge the government and ask, what are you going to do about X, Y, Z?
We need a strong opposition in this country and yes Smith leaves a lot to be desired but Corbyn is a disaster, and Smith will step down if there is someone better.
Please, please please everyone if u love ur country register to save her Majesty's Loyal opposition.
Tories, I know u love ur country more than party, do ur duty hold ur nose and if u can register as a Labour supporter and vote for Owen Smith.
Owen Smith wants a second referendum. Comrade Corbyn for me. But I won't vote. It's not my fight.
He's saying a second vote on the deal, but I think he is being clever trying to get the £3 quidders, u don't have to vote for him at next GE.
While the nasty party as a term was coined in 2002, the image of the Tories as nasty was in existience before that. 2002 was just the first time it was really acknowledged.
While the nasty party as a term was coined in 2002, the image of the Tories as nasty was in existience before that. 2002 was just the first time it was really acknowledged.
A year later the REAL Nasty Party bombed and invaded Iraq.....
While the nasty party as a term was coined in 2002, the image of the Tories as nasty was in existience before that. 2002 was just the first time it was really acknowledged.
A year later the REAL Nasty Party bombed and invaded Iraq.....
These days it's about which party is the lesser evil. The lesser 'nasty party'.
While the nasty party as a term was coined in 2002, the image of the Tories as nasty was in existience before that. 2002 was just the first time it was really acknowledged.
A year later the REAL Nasty Party bombed and invaded Iraq.....
These days it's about which party is the lesser evil. The lesser 'nasty party'.
The REAL Nasty Party is yet to elect a female leader...
@Casino_Royale Where you honestly stimulated by PMQs? Really?
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
Yes.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Miss Apocalypse also seems to forget that after Thatcher the Conservatives won a general election with the highest number of votes ever cast for one party.
Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history.
I haven't forgotten that. However that was under Major, who is on left of the Conservative party. Much of the Tory leaders after him were much more Thatcherite - Hague, IDS etc - which voters didn't like.
It's a repeated mistake by both parties that losing elections means that you just weren't [pick your poison] wing enough. It's Labour's turn now, made more difficult by May going One Nation Tory all over its ass.
Don't despair, there will be plenty of right wingers who think May's speech makes her a TINO.
nunu. I love my country and it has pained me more than I can say over the years to see the vile Labour party deliberately screwing it up - from spin, to Iraq, to 'rubbing their noses in it', to 'there's no money left', to basically everything they have ever touched going to shite. I think it would be wholly to the good of everyone if Labour now died. Something on the left will emerge to replace it. There will be a proper opposition at some point. But the imminent death of Labour is a major popcorn moment for all decent people.
''Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history. ''
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
It was indeed, Mr. Taffys. If I remember correctly it was after Blair had won the 1997 election and it was our current PM who at the Conservative Party conference said, "Some people call us the nasty party" or words very similar to that.
2002 party conference.
Yes, she was probably the bravest of the modernisers at that time to make that speech.
TM: - "There's a lot we need to do in this party of ours. Our base is too narrow and so, occasionally, are our sympathies. You know what some people call us - the nasty party."
It took some confidence to take the risk of tripping up over the word nasty. The soundbite could have gone horribly wrong.
The REAL Nasty Party is yet to elect a female leader...
Of far more importance - had the experience of travelling from Point Pleasant Junction to East Putney on a South West Trains service yesterday evening. The train went through the likes of Southfields and Wimbledon Park before turning off the District Line at East Putney to rejoin the main line just west of Wandsworth Town.
Am hearing that by close of play around 150k people will have become registered supporters in the Labour leadership contest
Blimey, they should have made it £100 a pop.
Holy Hell.
That's stunning if true.
It's either a moment of surprise revolution, or incredible blindness - Labour membership has never been more popular in modern times, and either they really are more reflective of the wider public than we think, or might prove appealing to it more than we think, or it is a party making itself unelectable in a really extreme way by total choice.
I feel quite sorry for the Labour Party, being taken over by a bunch of whackjob lefties. One can't help feeling the coup attempt has flooded the party with new and more hardcore/radical members, it will make Corbyn even more entrenched, the Labour Party even more left wing, and even further removed from power.
[chuckles]
How many £3ers have become £25ers is key. If your vote in 2015 won it for Comrade Corbyn, I'd imagine you'd fork out £25 to keep him there.
Nah, I paid my £3 a year ago for a bit of fun, I'm not paying £25 for another go. :-)
(I guess you weren't addressing that to me though!)
We need a strong opposition in this country and yes Smith leaves a lot to be desired but Corbyn is a disaster, and Smith will step down if there is someone better.
Please, please please everyone if u love ur country register to save her Majesty's Loyal opposition.
Tories, I know u love ur country more than party, do ur duty hold ur nose and if u can register as a Labour supporter and vote for Owen Smith.
Owen Smith wants a second referendum. Comrade Corbyn for me. But I won't vote. It's not my fight.
He's saying a second vote on the deal, but I think he is being clever trying to get the £3 quidders, u don't have to vote for him at next GE.
The REAL Nasty Party is yet to elect a female leader...
Of far more importance - had the experience of travelling from Point Pleasant Junction to East Putney on a South West Trains service yesterday evening. The train went through the likes of Southfields and Wimbledon Park before turning off the District Line at East Putney to rejoin the main line just west of Wandsworth Town.
Did you do it in daylight? I thought that train only ran around midnight. I have yet to do it!
Am hearing that by close of play around 150k people will have become registered supporters in the Labour leadership contest
Blimey, they should have made it £100 a pop.
Holy Hell.
That's stunning if true.
It's either a moment of surprise revolution, or incredible blindness - Labour membership has never been more popular in modern times, and either they really are more reflective of the wider public than we think, or might prove appealing to it more than we think, or it is a party making itself unelectable in a really extreme way by total choice.
I feel quite sorry for the Labour Party, being taken over by a bunch of whackjob lefties. One can't help feeling the coup attempt has flooded the party with new and more hardcore/radical members, it will make Corbyn even more entrenched, the Labour Party even more left wing, and even further removed from power.
[chuckles]
How many £3ers have become £25ers is key. If your vote in 2015 won it for Comrade Corbyn, I'd imagine you'd fork out £25 to keep him there.
Nah, I paid my £3 a year ago for a bit of fun, I'm not paying £25 for another go. :-)
(I guess you weren't addressing that to me though!)
The £3/£25ers can do it without you, me and Plato this time. Nevertheless I wish them well - probably a thoughtcrime in @Jobabob world mind.
Comments
Also, I agree with @valleyboy re the Thatcher comparisons. It's partly that time period and the fall out from it that meant the Tories were seen as the nasty party and had to modernise in the first place.
[chuckles]
10% shifts happened during
1) 2007 - The election that never was
2) 2008 - The credit crunch, when a 28% Tory lead became a Tory lead in 3% in two months
3) The Cleggasm
Our status quo ante as an EU member simply wasn't politically sustainable.
Wish I could find it again.
You lefties really don't know what Maggie does to us Tory Boys.
Corbyn = Dumbledore, has that headmaster quality/seriousness.
Owen = Supply teacher who enthuses pupils to join him on a field trip. He's Blairesque mannerisms and seems keen to please/flatter.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2005-2010
LOL. Harsh but fair.
Youngsters believing the myths they have been taught rather than learning the history.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2
YouGov/Times 2016-04-26 30 33 6 20 3 -3
It wasn't just the voice, it was the way she twisted her shoulder and lowered her body into it.
For example...
We can have a free trade agreement with China.
but
We cannot do that and protect our steelworks.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-won-pmqs-maggie-channels-8454378
I think its also fair to say that it was more than a decade after the fall of Thatcher that we first heard the 'nasty party' term.
Guardian ICM Nov 1990, just shortly after Sir Geoffrey Howe resigned, Thatcher was still PM (and before the first ballot of the Tory leadership contest)
Con 33 Lab 49 Lib Dems 13
Guardian ICM Dec 1990, shortly after John Major had become PM
Con 45 (+12) Lab 43 (-6) Lib Dems 9 (-3)
So the current polling isn't anything new.
And the "leaning into the dispatch box a la Thatcher" is over analysis. May will have learned that at the Oxford Union as an undergraduate.....indeed presumptuous leaning was frowned upon...(which May, as Librarian) could get away with...
https://t.co/Xmg5scOStI https://t.co/UASEfYmdty
Although, I see that means she was turning her back on the Speaker, symbolically rejecting our traditional values and system. Clearly an anti-establishment radical.
We need a strong opposition in this country and yes Smith leaves a lot to be desired but Corbyn is a disaster, and Smith will step down if there is someone better.
Please, please please everyone if u love ur country register to save her Majesty's Loyal opposition.
Tories, I know u love ur country more than party, do ur duty hold ur nose and if u can register as a Labour supporter and vote for Owen Smith.
Galadriel, spokeself for Lothlorien.
P.s. Found your messages and will have a look at your maps later.
There is a clear argument that being Liberal means embracing the 80% of the world which is not in the EU and rejecting the protectionism of the EU. Also the Lib Dems are very much for localism and implementing the EU subsidiarity principle instead of EU centralism.
A Lib Dems 2 Leave web site is at http://www.liberals2leave.eu/
I think about about 25% of Lib Dems voted Leave.
Nick Clegg has now taken over as Lib Dem spokesperson on EU matters so lets hope he reverses Tim Farrons approach to re-join the EU.
This is what happens when their is no opposition, thanks Corbyn.
Labour's Warsi?
There will always be a constituency that would support closer ties with Europe. Even if Brexit goes very well, that constituency will be there, although in such cicurmstances not really a vote winner.
If Brexit goes very badly, all bets are off...
I know that's unfair. You know that's unfair but it's the people out there we need to convince - and we can only do that by avoiding behaviour and attitudes that play into the hands of our opponents. No more glib moralising, no more hypocritical finger-wagging.
We need to reach out to all areas of our society."
May's recent leadership speech reveals she's not changed at all in the fundamentals.
Does misogynistic abuse mean the Labour party is now the nasty party for women?
Bricks through windows. Rape and death threats. Labour’s women MPs are suffering vile abuse…
https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/politics/2016/28/caroline-criado-perez-on-labour-women-abuse-and-death-threats
Don't despair, there will be plenty of right wingers who think May's speech makes her a TINO.
(I guess you weren't addressing that to me though!)