Imagine what we'd have thought if a country from behind the Iron Curtain had a referendum to decide if it wanted to change the status quo and, when they voted for change, the leader quit, installed a colleague who voted for the status quo, and ignored the outcome of the vote
Well luckily that is not going to happen is it. May has said BREXIT means BREXIT and was the most popular choice amongst the public for next PM in a yougov poll last week. The referendum was about leaving the EU not then refusing to join EFTA as well!
Tell me honestly if you think Leave would have won had they campaigned on joining EFTA and leaving FOM pretty much as it is now?
What will happen in practice is that the slowdown in the UK economy, combined with a recovering EU economy will probably cause immigration to drop in the short term, almost irrespective of what the UK government actually does.
It's ironic that Cameron & Osborne's stewardship of the economy, with record employment has created the increase in immigration that has brought about their demise.....
Yes. I was wrong about Cam and Ozzy. As my lifelong Europhile Labour mum said: "they are decent men who steered us through hard times."
@DPJHodges: British politics genuinely isn't a fight between Left and Right any more. It's a fight between sensible moderates, and cultists.
in both parties
This is just a pathetic centrist liberal who lives comfortably, who pretends that liberals have solutions to all the world's problems and anyone who disagrees is a cultist/racist/nationalist/etc. etc.
He also a poster boy for FoM given the pressure group he co-founded.
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
If you can't get my Mum to return to the Labour fold, you're going to win bugger all. Sorry.
Bet she'll love 4y of Theresa 'Sharia' May.
The fact that you use 'Sharia' just shows you haven't actually read her remarks. She offered some pleasantries about Sharia Law being a useful guide to some people, before reiterating that we have one law in this country and so on and so forth.
Labour's problem at the moment is that they're not for anything. They're anti-Tory, anti-austerity, anti-this and anti-fucking-that.
To win power, you have to persuade floating Tory voters to vote Labour. Running around with 'Tory Scum' T-shirts is not doing to accomplish much.
No, it is. When did you last drive on an English motorway? You have to go many miles up the M1 before you get the first chance to hit the speed limit. There is heavy traffic, always, everywhere.
England has the highest population density in Europe, for a large country. The only other EU country which is higher is Malta.
Have you been to Malta? It's horrible on the main island. Too many towns, too many people. That's where we're headed.
I drove on an English motorway last Autumn. It wasn't particularly busy. You may not be able to do 70 in many places but you spend a lot of time over 50.
But the other striking thing about it is that you're driving for miles through virtually nothing. You could add more lanes without a lot of serious logistical difficulties. There's very little of the kind of infrastructure you see in genuinely heavily populated areas like extended sections in tunnels or multiple decks stacked on top of each other. The limiting factor for doing this is cost, and that scales great when spread over more users.
The other thing you notice about England if you only drive there once a year, that might get lost to gradualism if you do it all the time, is that the roads are gradually getting better: Bypasses built, single-lane roads getting upgraded to two, etc. So I don't think the process of turning new people into taxes, and taxes into infrastructure, is particularly broken.
I drive up and down to Portugal and Italy and other parts of Europe several times a year and without doubt the driving in the UK is without fail the most miserable, slow and stressful section of every journey by a country mile.
Norway is horrific. The speed limit is something like 50 mph and quite a few people stick to it, which makes the queues very long and stressful.
To win power, you have to persuade floating Tory voters to vote Labour. Running around with 'Tory Scum' T-shirts is not doing to accomplish much.
Remain tried it, three months of campaigning without a positive word to say about the EU. Their bitter remnants are still trying it. BrExiteer scum this, BrExiteer scum that, BrExiteer scum the other. I am sure it is working well for them. Bless.
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
The British population can spot a loser with a lack of ability to lead the country. Thats why Corbyn will likely lose any general election under normal circumstances. Boy is a bigger loser than Brown or Miliband.
As it is, despite my fervent hope that he stays in post, today I have started to feel that he will be set aside.
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
Theresa May's dream outcome. A Corbyn led Labour party of 1 million members and, errr , 1 million voters.
There are 17m others after a May/Remainiac betrayal.
No, it is. When did you last drive on an English motorway? You have to go many miles up the M1 before you get the first chance to hit the speed limit. There is heavy traffic, always, everywhere.
England has the highest population density in Europe, for a large country. The only other EU country which is higher is Malta.
Have you been to Malta? It's horrible on the main island. Too many towns, too many people. That's where we're headed.
I drove on an English motorway last Autumn. It wasn't particularly busy. You may not be able to do 70 in many places but you spend a lot of time over 50.
But the other striking thing about it is that you're driving for miles through virtually nothing. You could add more lanes without a lot of serious logistical difficulties. There's very little of the kind of infrastructure you see in genuinely heavily populated areas like extended sections in tunnels or multiple decks stacked on top of each other. The limiting factor for doing this is cost, and that scales great when spread over more users.
The other thing you notice about England if you only drive there once a year, that might get lost to gradualism if you do it all the time, is that the roads are gradually getting better: Bypasses built, single-lane roads getting upgraded to two, etc. So I don't think the process of turning new people into taxes, and taxes into infrastructure, is particularly broken.
I drive up and down to Portugal and Italy and other parts of Europe several times a year and without doubt the driving in the UK is without fail the most miserable, slow and stressful section of every journey by a country mile.
Norway is horrific. The speed limit is something like 50 mph and quite a few people stick to it, which makes the queues very long and stressful.
In the UK the M5 is always dreadful.
Everyone who has complained about London or Birmingham has clearly never tried driving through Bristol at rush hour.
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
hey Remain was dishonest and pandered to greed and fear
As was the "Labour IN" campaign which was built around a vastly exaggerated threat to "workers rights".
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
If you can't get my Mum to return to the Labour fold, you're going to win bugger all. Sorry.
Bet she'll love 4y of Theresa 'Sharia' May.
Labour's problem at the moment is that they're not for anything. They're anti-Tory, anti-austerity, anti-this and anti-fucking-that.
To win power, you have to persuade floating Tory voters to vote Labour. Running around with 'Tory Scum' T-shirts is not doing to accomplish much.
LOL, if Labour want to win again they need people like me, who voted for them in 2001, to vote for them again. Not happening any time soon.
Both parties have been taken over by cultists. Advancement is to be judged solely on purity of belief.
Without Brexit, in what Universe would Andrea Leadsom be in any conversation about next PM, let alone any sensible conversation?
Which is why I now support a realignment. The one good thing about this sorry episode is that I have been forced to revisit my prejudices. One Nation and free-market liberal Tories, the Labour Right, the Labour centre-left and the Liberal Democrats are the obvious coalition of the future.
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
If you can't get my Mum to return to the Labour fold, you're going to win bugger all. Sorry.
Bet she'll love 4y of Theresa 'Sharia' May.
The fact that you use 'Sharia' just shows you haven't actually read her remarks. She offered some pleasantries about Sharia Law being a useful guide to some people, before reiterating that we have one law in this country
She didn't even go that far - mentioning Sharia by name as useful - just religions in general- she then went on to point out a potential problem with Sharia Courts - which she was setting up an investigation into.....talk about "twisted by knaves to make traps for fools"!
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
I think we could do a few things ourselves. We need to axe in working benefits, add English language requirements for certain industries, make benefits contributory. On the EU side we could ask for an EU wide increase in waiting days to a year and have them start only once working status is achieved, or for self employed the first invoice date. I think those two moves alone would drastically reduce unskilled and low paid migration.
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to work. If they have nothing assistance should be provided in the form of food vouchers until they get back into work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
If you can't get my Mum to return to the Labour fold, you're going to win bugger all. Sorry.
Bet she'll love 4y of Theresa 'Sharia' May.
The fact that you use 'Sharia' just shows you haven't actually read her remarks. She offered some pleasantries about Sharia Law being a useful guide to some people, before reiterating that we have one law in this country and so on and so forth.
Labour's problem at the moment is that they're not for anything. They're anti-Tory, anti-austerity, anti-this and anti-fucking-that.
To win power, you have to persuade floating Tory voters to vote Labour. Running around with 'Tory Scum' T-shirts is not doing to accomplish much.
She's run the Interior Ministry for 6y. Sharia has flourished on her watch.
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Each marginal seat will get a new hospital out of the £350m...
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
@DPJHodges: British politics genuinely isn't a fight between Left and Right any more. It's a fight between sensible moderates, and cultists.
in both parties
Isn't it usually the cultists who ignore democracy and the moderates that respect it though?
Different sets of cultists. One set is obsessed with sovereignty and democracy. The other is obsessed with globalisation and wanting to see the lower classes working for them at £8 an hour.
Yes, that was a deliberately long contest, after three election defeats and eight years of opposition, designed to bring forward and test people like Cameron to represent the future of the party.
Now we have an urgent requirement for a PM, with a lame duck in Downing St and a pile of major issues requiring key decisions. Hence someone like May rather than Leadsom.
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
Imagine what we'd have thought if a country from behind the Iron Curtain had a referendum to decide if it wanted to change the status quo and, when they voted for change, the leader quit, installed a colleague who voted for the status quo, and ignored the outcome of the vote
Well luckily that is not going to happen is it. May has said BREXIT means BREXIT and was the most popular choice amongst the public for next PM in a yougov poll last week. The referendum was about leaving the EU not then refusing to join EFTA as well!
"May has said BREXIT means BREXIT" is not a lot to rely on. She has to say that or she can write off her chances. Whether she means it is another matter.
Of course she means it, most Tory voters voted Leave, she cannot ignore that
Cobblers. She can deliver an EEA version that suits most Remainers and hurts most Leavers trust.
That's a giant electoral raspberry in the making.
Many Home Counties areas voted Remain, those that voted Leave only did so relatively narrowly. Most Middle class Tories will be happy with the EEA on the whole, add them to the 48% who voted Remain you have a clear EEA majority. The white working class Leave voters may not be happy with free movement, nor will some lower middle class Tories but they comprise about a third of the country, enough for a significant UKIP protest vote but nothing more
Only Brighton and St Albans had more than 60% Remain whereas Leave were over 60% in Dartford, Medway, Swale, Dover, Shepway, Thanet, Gravesham, Basildon, Thurrock, Castle Point, Rochford, Maldon, Tendring, Braintree, Harlow, Epping Forrest, Broxbourne and Arun.
Most of those seats you mention are not traditional Tory Home Counties seats, unlike say Mole Valley, Tunbridge Wells, Epsom and Ewell, Chiltern and Elmbridge which all voted Remain. In fact of the seats you set out all 12/18 elected a Labour MP at some point between 1997-2005 and now have a Tory MP, they are swing seats filled with lower middle class and skilled working class voters not traditional middle class Home Counties Tory strongholds
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
Wrong. Working for the Bank of England does not automatically make you a "banker".
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
I think we could do a few things ourselves. We need to axe in working benefits, add English language requirements for certain industries, make benefits contributory. On the EU side we could ask for an EU wide increase in waiting days to a year and have them start only once working status is achieved, or for self employed the first invoice date. I think those two moves alone would drastically reduce unskilled and low paid migration.
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to work. If they have nothing assistance should be provided in the form of food vouchers until they get back into work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
And food vouchers are an extremely inefficient form of welfare. Practice in the US Appalachia, for example, is for many recipients to sell the food vouchers to brokers at cents on the dollar to purchase what is really wanted (often drugs, but also things like sneakers for the kids). If you want a simple, low cost to operate system, dole out money. If you don't trust recipients to spend the money wisely, give them what you want them to have (meals). But as soon as scrip is involved, secondary markets evolve ensuring that the welfare recipient ends up with less than 100 cents on the dollar and some shady operators make big profits.
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
On 17 Mar 2009: Theresa May voted against requiring public communications providers retain certain categories of communications data, which they generate or process, for a minimum period of 12 months.
On 15 Jul 2014: Theresa May voted in favour of requiring the mass retention of information about communications, (but not the content of those communications); in favour of arrangements to limit access to such information;
Snoopers charters are okay as long as they are not Labour snoopers charters. One of the advantages of the government having a tiny majority, is that this sort of illiberal crap is very difficult to get passed!
Does your life get impacted by the snoopers charter out there in the sun? Because they are leagues ahead in that respect to the UK.
So any impact on your life out there that should worry us in the uk, with its much reduced scope?
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
ps has anyone asked Mr McDonnell if he voted out?
VOTE LABOUR
If you can't get my Mum to return to the Labour fold, you're going to win bugger all. Sorry.
Bet she'll love 4y of Theresa 'Sharia' May.
The fact that you use 'Sharia' just shows you haven't actually read her remarks. She offered some pleasantries about Sharia Law being a useful guide to some people, before reiterating that we have one law in this country
She didn't even go that far - mentioning Sharia by name as useful - just religions in general- she then went on to point out a potential problem with Sharia Courts - which she was setting up an investigation into.....talk about "twisted by knaves to make traps for fools"!
Fair go, but I am struggling a little. Theresa May has been home secretary for about six years, what has she actually done in her time in that office? What has she achieved? What in the twilight of her years will she be able look back on and say, "That happened because of me"?
Labour will soon be 500,000 strong,a true mass membership party.None of the party's servants in Westminster can ignore that.The Tory party looks to have well it stitch-up to avoid their membership.
Yes, Corbynism *is* popular with parts of the population.
Currently mainly younger people of course, with well known voting drawbacks etc.
Mcdonnell however seems to have spotted a mass appeal way forward
If Corby continues to show Will-to-Power, clears out the RedTories via Boundary change 2018-9, he could end with maybe a million members and a party reunited with the poor.
Facing him will be May&Remainiacs with 50k members, who have just finished redefining LEAVE to include being a full member of the EU with 500,000 immigrants pa.
@DPJHodges: British politics genuinely isn't a fight between Left and Right any more. It's a fight between sensible moderates, and cultists.
in both parties
Isn't it usually the cultists who ignore democracy and the moderates that respect it though?
Different sets of cultists. One set is obsessed with sovereignty and democracy. The other is obsessed with globalisation and wanting to see the lower classes working for them at £8 an hour.
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
The Establishment has been blown out of the water. A hedge fund manager takes on a banker in the fight to be our next PM. The little people are on the march
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
As it wasn't utterly mendacious and nakedly racist it has the edge.
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
The Establishment has been blown out of the water. A hedge fund manager takes on a banker in the fight to be our next PM. The little people are on the march
It's much duller than that. It's an apparatchik versus a compliance officer. Can't wait for the film of the book.
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to work. If they have nothing assistance should be provided in the form of food vouchers until they get back into work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
The Establishment has been blown out of the water. A hedge fund manager takes on a banker in the fight to be our next PM. The little people are on the march
To be fair (a ridiculous notion I know) at least they worked their way up!
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to work. If they have nothing assistance should be provided in the form of food vouchers until they get back into work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
"I think that Theresa May would find the process of fighting the membership election one that could be enormously invaluable to her in the years to come. It would also boost the profile of the person she is fighting which would be no bad thing."
Especially if that person was someone whom one had backed at enormous odds .... LOL!
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Yes, or we could have Theresa May a former banker.
Wrong. Working for the Bank of England does not automatically make you a "banker".
In the context of the comment I was replying to, it wont make any difference in the marginals.
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
I thought Remain ran a terrible campaign. I thought Leave's was considerably worse and will poison British politics for years to come as stoking up racial tensions has proven to be a vote winner.
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to workinto work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
Andrea Leadsom for PM? That's all we need to unite the country and to restore faith in politics - a former banker and hedge fund manager who used dubious methods to avoid inheritance tax for her kids and stuffed money in off-shore tax havens. I can see that going down well in the marginals!
Each marginal seat will get a new hospital out of the £350m...
Oh yes...I forgot. Problem is, if we ever did have any money to build all those new hospitals there won't be enough craftsmen over here to build them
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
As it wasn't utterly mendacious and nakedly racist it has the edge.
Not utterly mendacious ? We must have missed all those refugee camps in Kent then, not to mention all those whoppers from Cameron telling everyone that jobless migrants could be kicked out after six months.
By how many MPs do we think Leadsom will be ahead of Gove?
Is there a chance May supporters could vote tactically to get Gove ahead of Leadsom?
No way can May supporters get Crabb into the Final - he'll be too far back.
But if Crabb goes out in 4th, most of his will transfer to May. That will create significant additional surplus votes for May that could be used to push Gove ahead of Leadsom.
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
Quite. We've made our own bed.....
Who is we, Ms Vance?
How are the mighty fallen Mr L
tell it not in Bath, publish it not in the streets of Islington, lest the daughters of the philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the unwashed triumph
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to workinto work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
Yes.
It was in the Beverage report and promised by both the Conservatives and Liberals. The Labour manifesto only promised improving public health.
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
As it wasn't utterly mendacious and nakedly racist it has the edge.
I think Remain told the most lies in 1975 and Leave told the most in 2016.
I too live in one of the most sparsely populated parts of England and it voted 60/40% for Leave. John Redwood's (overcrowded) constituency of Wokingham, Berks. voted Remain.
In my view, England as a whole is seriously overpopulated and it would be nice in the long run to have the low birth rates of Germany or Italy. Instead, we have a high birth rate similar to that of France.
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
Those trade deals are going to take a
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to workinto work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
Wasn't all the planning work done under the wartime coalition and if labour had lost the 45 election would still have come about?
The election obviously was not a ringing endorsement of Remain because they lost!! The point is Remain comfortably won inner London and every council area in the inner city
NZ offering us their senior trade deal negotiators made my day. We've already 11 countries eyeing our newly independent status. 65 million buyers have said Hiya to the rest of the world.
What's not to like?
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to workinto work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
A Labour government that wasn't yet part of the EU
Oh! So they are changing the basis of their legal system, massively slashing their top rates of tax, making it considerably easier to sack people, who knew!
France's income tax is nowhere near as bad as we think as every family member adds to your tax threshold. So, someone earning £100,000 with three kids is paying well under 30%.
That is, incidentally, an eminently sensible way of incentivising middle class reproduction....
Is this a priority? For the last 6 months Leavers have been telling us that Britain is becoming unsustainably overpopulated. Or is that just the wrong sort of population growth?
I think it was more of an off-the-cuff observation. Not every comment has to pertain to Brexit, surely?
Intriguing non-response to a simple question. Obviously worrying about overpopulation is so last week.
Alastair, stop being so...you. I live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. You can stack people like cordwood in the SE if that's what pleases y'all.
My view on mass immigration has been based on logistics rather than considering all people unlike me to be untermenschen.
I shall now return to the interesting phenomenon of low fertility in Western countries.
Do feel free to return to it. And I shall continue to feel free to keep pointing out that Leave was dishonest and pandered to xenophobia.
Do you seriously believe your team ran a decent and honest campaign? Your side don't hold the moral high ground here.
I thought Remain ran a terrible campaign. I thought Leave's was considerably worse and will poison British politics for years to come as stoking up racial tensions has proven to be a vote winner.
If only Cameron hadn't spent the last decade telling everyone immigration was bad, people might have believed him when he started saying it was good and the argument might have been rather shorter.
@georgeeaton: Theresa May is the potential Tory leader Labour MPs have long feared the most. "A more pragmatic Thatcher," says one.
No shit.
But the cultists would rather have purity than electability.
How has Boris done Electability-wise?
Do Labour MPs actually think about who they are facing anymore? The Lab party's collective nervous breakdown surely means it is irrelevant who is Tory leader.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
The NHS was part of the Beveridge Report of 1943 and the idea was accepted by the Conservative manifesto of 1945, although the principle it be funded from taxation not insurance based on means was an addition by Aneurin Bevan.
Bevan later admitted in 1958 that he had done this to justify confiscatory taxation and not to provide decent healthcare. It was a mistake (or rather, an act of spiteful dogmatism) that ultimately wrecked the Attlee government and still has a decidedly mixed legacy today.
US whistleblower Edward Snowden has criticised new anti-terrorism legislation approved by Russia's parliament. He wrote on Twitter that the "Big Brother law" was an "unworkable, unjustifiable violation of rights that should never be signed".
Among the new rules are tough punishments for failing to report crime, or inciting terrorism online. It must still be signed into law by Russian president Vladimir Putin.
Mr Snowden, a former contractor for the CIA, fled to Russia in 2013 after leaking details of extensive internet and phone surveillance by the US National Security Agency. Commenting on the law, he wrote: "Mass surveillance doesn't work. This bill will take money and liberty from every Russian without improving safety."
It made me wonder, well, if you really hate government intrusion and surveillance as a threat to freedom and democracy, why the hell did you move to Russia, of all places?
That's not a place to move to if you've got the slightest intention of being dissident or outspoken.
In my pre-referendum reading of European think-pieces, it came across clearly that several commentators thought we were bonkers.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
Quite. We've made our own bed.....
Blame New Labour not the voters.
And who elected New Labour?
Probably another example of voters actually having no idea what policies are in manifestos. I doubt 1 person in 200 could have told you about transitional controls when it was put before the people (if it even was, I haven't got time to check the early New Lab manifestos).
US whistleblower Edward Snowden has criticised new anti-terrorism legislation approved by Russia's parliament. He wrote on Twitter that the "Big Brother law" was an "unworkable, unjustifiable violation of rights that should never be signed".
Among the new rules are tough punishments for failing to report crime, or inciting terrorism online. It must still be signed into law by Russian president Vladimir Putin.
Mr Snowden, a former contractor for the CIA, fled to Russia in 2013 after leaking details of extensive internet and phone surveillance by the US National Security Agency. Commenting on the law, he wrote: "Mass surveillance doesn't work. This bill will take money and liberty from every Russian without improving safety."
It made me wonder, well, if you really hate government intrusion and surveillance as a threat to freedom and democracy, why the hell did you move to Russia, of all places?
No extradition treaty with the US? If I were Snowden, I think that would be quite high on my list of priorities .
Those trade deals are going to take a minimum of four years to get off the ground and as @rcs1000 has pointed out on a number of occasions, we need to negotiate from a position of strength. A year long recession followed by rising unemployment isn't the position we want to be looking for trade deals from because other nations will know how desperate we are to sign. Like it or not, 35-38% of our exports go to the EU. We can't face barriers to that trade and lose the income on the hopes of signing non-EU deals in the meantime. It is a fantastical policy position.
The real
It needs to be more than a fig leaf. People care more about outcomes than abstracts. Reduce unskilled immigration and people will be fine with FoM I think.
snip
Agree with much of that but would have a basic minimum for benefits with higher benefits dependent on NI contribution like Germany
Why? People should be encouraged to save and to workinto work.
Food vouchers are benefits by another name and what about heating bills, electricity, rental costs etc? In a civilised country I believe everyone should have enough to survive on but to live in any form of comfort requires effort
I resent the idea of "reforming" our benefits system because the EU is wedded to an ideal that was dreamt up in the 1950s.
Actually much of the EU does have a more contributory benefits system than we do, so that is one thing we can learn from them
Quite. Not to mention the fact that our benefits system is 'wedded to an ideal' dreamt up in the 1940s.
Don't forget though that Beveridge's original plans were contributory. It is subsequent governments who have watered this down.
Also don't forget the whole NHS and welfare state thing comes from the Liberal/Tory end of the political spectrum not Labour.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
Yes.
It was in the Beverage report and promised by both the Conservatives and Liberals. The Labour manifesto only promised improving public health.
Right - so we agree Labour created the NHS. The Tories may have done, but voters clearly didn't trust them to.
That would be the NHS establshed by a Labour government?
Beveridge having been a member of which party?
Of Beveridge's five giants I would suggest that three remain with us because it was not in the interest of the political parties, and especially the Labour Party, to kill them off.
Comments
Shame the Brexiteers have just carpet bombed us.
Labour's problem at the moment is that they're not for anything. They're anti-Tory, anti-austerity, anti-this and anti-fucking-that.
To win power, you have to persuade floating Tory voters to vote Labour. Running around with 'Tory Scum' T-shirts is not doing to accomplish much.
Both parties have been taken over by cultists. Advancement is to be judged solely on purity of belief.
Without Brexit, in what Universe would Andrea Leadsom be in any conversation about next PM, let alone any sensible conversation?
In the UK the M5 is always dreadful.
http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/41223&showall=yes#divisions
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/tory-leadership-battle-five-questions-for-five-contenders---here/
No FoM
As it is, despite my fervent hope that he stays in post, today I have started to feel that he will be set aside.
Betting PostF1: no penalty for Hulkenberg. Backed, with one stake split for even profit, him and Raikkonen to lead lap 1 at 6 and 11 respectively.
Ironic...
That's a bit more like it.
Now we have an urgent requirement for a PM, with a lame duck in Downing St and a pile of major issues requiring key decisions. Hence someone like May rather than Leadsom.
Still enjoying the way everyone else is finally seeing him for what he is. Makes a lovely change.
We refused transitional controls, neglected to reform our H&W systems and were now throwing our toys out of the pram as poor Eastern Europeans took advantage of the most generous welfare and in-work benefit system in Europe.
One of the advantages of the government having a tiny majority, is that this sort of illiberal crap is very difficult to get passed!
Does your life get impacted by the snoopers charter out there in the sun? Because they are leagues ahead in that respect to the UK.
So any impact on your life out there that should worry us in the uk, with its much reduced scope?
Hilary helping FBI with enquires.
Murray/Federer final ??
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79n/chapter1.7.html
"The Party" sounds like the group @Jobabob desires
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/austria-pre-race-2016.html
A voluntary meeting, interesting phrase, but she is innocent until proved guilty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36695722
Edward Snowden may get a lot of new pairs of underpants. The Russians have acknowledged he was an intelligence asset.
If they are saying that, they are done with him.
Cheerio you peace of s**t.
Especially if that person was someone whom one had backed at enormous odds .... LOL!
A Federer-Murray final, if it happens again, would be wonderful four years after their first final together.
No shit.
But the cultists would rather have purity than electability.
Is there a chance May supporters could vote tactically to get Gove ahead of Leadsom?
No way can May supporters get Crabb into the Final - he'll be too far back.
But if Crabb goes out in 4th, most of his will transfer to May. That will create significant additional surplus votes for May that could be used to push Gove ahead of Leadsom.
tell it not in Bath, publish it not in the streets of Islington, lest the daughters of the philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the unwashed triumph
It was in the Beverage report and promised by both the Conservatives and Liberals. The Labour manifesto only promised improving public health.
I too live in one of the most sparsely populated parts of England and it voted 60/40% for Leave. John Redwood's (overcrowded) constituency of Wokingham, Berks. voted Remain.
In my view, England as a whole is seriously overpopulated and it would be nice in the long run to have the low birth rates of Germany or Italy. Instead, we have a high birth rate similar to that of France.
Bevan later admitted in 1958 that he had done this to justify confiscatory taxation and not to provide decent healthcare. It was a mistake (or rather, an act of spiteful dogmatism) that ultimately wrecked the Attlee government and still has a decidedly mixed legacy today.
US whistleblower Edward Snowden has criticised new anti-terrorism legislation approved by Russia's parliament. He wrote on Twitter that the "Big Brother law" was an "unworkable, unjustifiable violation of rights that should never be signed".
Among the new rules are tough punishments for failing to report crime, or inciting terrorism online. It must still be signed into law by Russian president Vladimir Putin.
Mr Snowden, a former contractor for the CIA, fled to Russia in 2013 after leaking details of extensive internet and phone surveillance by the US National Security Agency. Commenting on the law, he wrote: "Mass surveillance doesn't work. This bill will take money and liberty from every Russian without improving safety."
It made me wonder, well, if you really hate government intrusion and surveillance as a threat to freedom and democracy, why the hell did you move to Russia, of all places?
That's not a place to move to if you've got the slightest intention of being dissident or outspoken.
May 150
Leadsom 70
Gove 50
Crabb 40
Fox 20
Once Fox and Crabb drop out then R3 (without any tactical voting) would be approx.:
May 180
Leadsom 90
Gove 60
So May has easily enough scope to lever Gove into 2nd - if she wants to.
But Crabb must go out 4th.
Two Mayoralties in heavily Labour-leaning London, and a Referendum to boot!
Of Beveridge's five giants I would suggest that three remain with us because it was not in the interest of the political parties, and especially the Labour Party, to kill them off.