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Nominations for the successor to Cameron close and reports suggest that Angela Eagle will announce that she’s seeking the 51 required nominations to contest the Labour leadership.

Read the full story here

Gadfly

First!

blackburn63

I don't rate Eagle but no matter, I've said on here before that I would love to see more women in politics. They are more loyal and conscientious than men, cause fewer wars and the female prison population is approx 10% of the male.

Good luck ladies.

SouthamObserver

Corbyn is going nowhere, Angela Eagle will never lead Labour. In any case, can it really be seen as a mainstream party these days?

tlg86

Fourth like Crabb.

MikeK

Good morning all.
So it's expected to be womens day? Lets hope it's pettycoats and not petty fogging and help, no transexuals.

Sandpit

SouthamObserver said:

Corbyn is going nowhere, Angela Eagle will never lead Labour. In any case, can it really be seen as a mainstream party these days?

Feeling quite sorry for Labour this week. Those trying to organise the coup couldn't organise the proverbial party in the ale house. They should have had the challenger announced then have everyone resign to back them, not have everyone resign then a load of internal discussions about who to put up against Corbyn. If, as looks likely, he is challenged and wins, do the 172 MPs have any choice but to resign the whip after all that's been said?

blackburn63

Looking at the egos and careerists fighting in the Labour Party its no wonder people are turning away from party politics. Few of them have any principles or association with the grass roots, I hate to say it but I hope the Labour Party disappears.

SquareRoot

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Sandpit

Watching Channel 4's Power Monkeys from last night - very sharp, especially so given they write, film and broadcast it all the same day. Jokes about Mrs Gove and PMQs for example.

daodao

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

SouthamObserver

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

foxinsoxuk

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

Whoever takes on the Corbynistas needs the hide of a rhino in order to withstand the abuse that will come from the Momentum activists.

Angela Eagle is rather a battleaxe, a bit Norah Batty, and fits the moment rather well. Good luck to her.

Her sexuality is irrelevant in the modern political era and rightly so. I don't think the WWC are as bigotted as you seem to think.

Cicero

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

I think wrong, at every level. Also just a whisper of prejudice... Trump ain't going to win, Le Pen? Maybe, but about as positive a force as Farage in the EP, surrounded by people far more qualified, saying that being a commodities broker was a real job. The backlash may leave UKIP with fewer seats in the House Commons than it has now. Eagle is not the finished article, but neither was Thatcher. At least she really is a Northerner.

IanB2

The qualification bar for being labour leader appears to have sunk to just having one occasion when you have turned in a better performance at PMQs that Corbyn?

murali_s

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

You been in the juice already? Bit early man.

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

asjohnstone

It's all a bit game of thrones, it's all female rulers there too

ManWithThePlan

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

murali_s

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

Indeed - I will vote for anyone but Corbyn. It will be close this time.

OldKingCole

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

SouthamObserver

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

logical_song

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

IanB2

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

And not just because of Corbyn's obvious unsuitability: they are in this position because the other wing of their party is equally bankrupt. John Harris in the Guardian today should be a must read for all labour supporters.

ManWithThePlan

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

Very few probably, which is why UKIP will surge and accelerate Labour's demise.

david_herdson

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

SouthamObserver

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

What could possibly go wrong with London becoming a highly deregulated offshore financial centre hosting institutions with potential liabilities many times greater than the size of the English economy?

OldKingCole

ManWithThePlan said:

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

Very few probably, which is why UKIP will surge and accelerate Labour's demise.

You mean you’ve got to be really thick to vote UKIP?

No, I DON”T think the WWC are; Poorly informed, perhaps.

SouthamObserver

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

Beggars can't be choosers.

david_herdson

On topic, there may be a slight effect on the Lab campaign if May looks like winning but I doubt it will be big.

Firstly, Boris seems to have a decent lead in MPs, though he may poll like Portillo in 2001, scoring well to start with then failing to advance, or like David Davis who actually went backwards in 2005. But either way, May isn't going to look like a shoo-in so Labour members would be taking a bit of a flier voting on that basis. Also, most Labour votes (like most Con votes) are likely to be cast early, so there'll be less opportunity to respond to events.

And secondly, and more importantly, Labour's contest is a battle for the soul of the party. Issues such as 'our first female leader' come a very long way down the list. How many potential Cobyn voters will be swayed by that notion? How many would otherwise have voted for him - and for the likely split in the Labour party that would in all probability result from a Corbyn win - but will switch just because his opponent is a woman (and not a particularly big-hitting woman)?

not_on_fire

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Charles

SouthamObserver said:

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

What could possibly go wrong with London becoming a highly deregulated offshore financial centre hosting institutions with potential liabilities many times greater than the size of the English economy?

It's not going to be deregulated. It's going to be appropriately regulated.

E.g. the banker bonus cap has resulted in higher fixed costs and more volatility in profitability hence less systemic stability. Better to have a significant portion paid in stock, vesting over an extended period and cancelled for bad behaviour

Sandpit

Just a funny thought. If Denis McShane hadn't got into a fight in the Commons bar, Labour wouldn't now be facing an existential crisis.

nunu

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/jreedmp/status/748311645424844801

FF43

In Scotland the leaders of the three biggest parties are women. It does make a difference.

Four out of six party leaders are in same-sex relationships FWIW.

blackburn63

OldKingCole said:

ManWithThePlan said:

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

Very few probably, which is why UKIP will surge and accelerate Labour's demise.

You mean you’ve got to be really thick to vote UKIP?

No, I DON”T think the WWC are; Poorly informed, perhaps.

I can't persuade people to agree with me, they are thick

blackburn63

According to the Telegraph the FTSE had it's best day for 5 years yesterday, the emotional headless chickens will ignore that.

Freggles

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Seconded. Shrill.

DavidL

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

No_Offence_Alan

Which is worse for Labour? Corbyn beating Eagle by 52%-48% or the reverse?

david_herdson

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

As opposed to destroying Corbyn.

But Eagle does understand that Labour ought to aspire to being a party of government rather than a movement of protest, which would be a step in the right direction.

The danger of an Eagle leadership is that is proves ineffective and gives the Corbynites the charge that their leader was betrayed for nothing (which wouldn't be true because the counterfactual would undoubtedly have been worse but they wouldn't know that and no amount of speculation will persuade them of it). Consequently, it would risk the possibility of another left-wing takeover after a general election, when the PLP may have enough left-wing MPs to provide a nominating block.

anotherDave

OldKingCole said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

I don't understand why Messrs Crabb and Fox are standing. They know they're not contenders, so they're just wasting everyone's time. Irresponsible.

Innocent_Abroad

Freggles said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Seconded. Shrill.

She's Labour's Anthony Meyer (older readers only).

MikeK

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

Indigo

david_herdson said:

Consequently, it would risk the possibility of another left-wing takeover after a general election, when the PLP may have enough left-wing MPs to provide a nominating block.

That might happen anyway if Momentum manage to get a number of Sensible Labour MPs deselected and replaced by nutters.

david_herdson

SouthamObserver said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

Beggars can't be choosers.

They could if Hilary Benn, Tom Watson or one of about half-a-dozen other top-level candidates manned up. If Labour wants a woman leader, Yvette Cooper would be a better option.

Sandpit

blackburn63 said:

According to the Telegraph the FTSE had it's best day for 5 years yesterday, the emotional headless chickens will ignore that.

FTSE 100 is now higher than any time since the middle of April, and the 250 is back to where it was a week ago. But that doesn't fit the narrative, so it will go unmentioned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/stockmarket/3/three_month.stm

alex.

david_herdson said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

As opposed to destroying Corbyn.

But Eagle does understand that Labour ought to aspire to being a party of government rather than a movement of protest, which would be a step in the right direction.

Forget about aspiring to be a party of government, it would help if they could start by meeting some minimum standards to qualify as a party of opposition first.

david_herdson

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

And not just because of Corbyn's obvious unsuitability: they are in this position because the other wing of their party is equally bankrupt. John Harris in the Guardian today should be a must read for all labour supporters.

Whatever else Blair might be, he's not bankrupt.

Danny565

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

Beggars can't be choosers.

They could if Hilary Benn, Tom Watson or one of about half-a-dozen other top-level candidates manned up. If Labour wants a woman leader, Yvette Cooper would be a better option.

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

MarqueeMark

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Eagles needs some media training, fast. She is always the rudest member of any panel, chuntering away over other panellists trying to have their say. She speaks too fast, then pauses obviously whilst she has to think. And that voice? It reminds me of the high-pitched whine of a mosquito.

I just despair of Labour putting up a half-decent opposition any time soon.

DavidL

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Like you I have found her underwhelming but that really doesn't matter. What matters is recovering the party from Corbyn while it still has a pulse.

Unlike Corbyn she will have the support of the most competent (again a strictly relevant term) MPs currently sitting in exile so she will have a stronger team too. If the party is to survive they really need to all get behind her vocally and unequivocally from the off.

Indigo

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

IanB2

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

I assumed this guy was a troll. Particularly the reference to Farage's speech, which was a national embarrassment. He may have woken up this morning but his mind has not.

logical_song

Danny565 said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

Beggars can't be choosers.

They could if Hilary Benn, Tom Watson or one of about half-a-dozen other top-level candidates manned up. If Labour wants a woman leader, Yvette Cooper would be a better option.

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

51.9 to 48.1

alex.

If the Labour membership "electorate" was broadly the same people as last year, then you would have to think that Corbyn would surely struggle against a single candidate. He got 60% against a divided opposition, which doesn't seem insurmountable. However the Labour membership is a movable feast because of this £3 thing.

One minor point though - I assume the 3quidders from last time do not have a vote this time unless they pay up again. I wonder how many of them will be aware of that and be surprised when the ballot paper doesn't drop through the letterbox?

DavidL

anotherDave said:

OldKingCole said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

I don't understand why Messrs Crabb and Fox are standing. They know they're not contenders, so they're just wasting everyone's time. Irresponsible.

Agree but I don't think it affects the timetable because the voting date for members will be the same.

Indigo

DavidL said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Like you I have found her underwhelming but that really doesn't matter. What matters is recovering the party from Corbyn while it still has a pulse.

Unlike Corbyn she will have the support of the most competent (again a strictly relevant term) MPs currently sitting in exile so she will have a stronger team too. If the party is to survive they really need to all get behind her vocally and unequivocally from the off.

As a speaker for Remain at the debate she is going to help the move from Labour to UKIP in the north by demonstrating that Labour doesn't speak for, or understand their concerns.

daodao

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

Anyone over 60 in the UK was brought up in era when homosexuality was a criminal offence and regarded as a cardinal sin. It is still regarded as the latter by Muslims (and Jews). If anyone was unfortunately afflicted by same-sex desire, it was the done thing to keep quiet and not be in the public eye. Beliefs and values inculcated in childhood last until one's dying day.

anotherDave

DavidL said:

anotherDave said:

OldKingCole said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

I don't understand why Messrs Crabb and Fox are standing. They know they're not contenders, so they're just wasting everyone's time. Irresponsible.

Agree but I don't think it affects the timetable because the voting date for members will be the same.

Fair point. I should rein in my impatience.

Danny565

Conor Pope ‏@Conorpope 10h10 hours ago
In two and a half years I've worked here, LabourList readership has been - roughly speaking - a decent guide to the average Labour activist.

Conor Pope ‏@Conorpope 10h10 hours ago
When I saw traffic for the list of MPs who had abstained on the Welfare Bill last year it became clear how much Corbyn was going to win by.

Conor Pope ‏@Conorpope 10h10 hours ago
Judging by the most popular stories this week, if there was a leadership contest tomorrow he would walk it at a stroll.

Indigo

IanB2 said:

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

I assumed this guy was a troll. Particularly the reference to Farage's speech, which was a national embarrassment. He may have woken up this morning but his mind has not.

You might have seen it as a national embarrassment, but it was far more likely that it was Farage getting the WWC off their sofas to vote than Dan Hannan, he is about as marmite as a politician comes, but there is no doubting that he goes down well with about quarter of the electorate.

Cyclefree

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

May I say that the posts from the new poster (Gavingall?) on financial services and passporting are very good.

The passport is needed by the financial services sector but it is not the only thing which matters. Germany has one of the weakest regulators in the world, the BaFin, and it is currently concerned with Deutsche Bank, a bank described to me as "virtually unregulatable" and in a whole heap of trouble right now. Germany neither understands nor likes investment banking and will struggle to recreate the environment which London had. Its data protection laws are Kafkaesque.

France similarly does not understand markets. Indeed it is hostile to what it sees as an Anglo-Saxon market view. Its employment laws make life difficult for employers and recent judicial decisions such as the one awarding Kerviel (who defrauded SocGen of 5 billion euros) compensation for being unfairly dismissed are not likely to encourage banks to have any more than the bare minimum needed to access the passport. Its tax system is not hugely encouraging either.


Dublin has some advantages but is simply not large enough to support a sector like London (remember all the trouble the Irish banks caused) and the same applies to Scotland.

Clearly the passport matters to London but the strength which London has built up is made of many factors. Sure other countries would like to have the nice stuff ie the tax revenues but the laws they pass often seem designed to cut down or eliminate the very activities giving rise to those revenues.

One other word of caution. All banks are now busy offshoring, onshoring and reducing their costs because of the challenging market and regulatory conditions and this has been happening for a while. Don't assume that all of this is linked to Brexit. Much of it would be happening anyway.

MarqueeMark

Indigo said:

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

I don' think you need to look at such exotic creatures. If she wins, I expect her to travel the transformational path from Eagle to turkey.....

Indigo

alex. said:

One minor point though - I assume the 3quidders from last time do not have a vote this time unless they pay up again. I wonder how many of them will be aware of that and be surprised when the ballot paper doesn't drop through the letterbox?

The FAQ on the Labour Supporters pages doesn't imply any time limit, looks like three quid to vote on Labour leadership elections forever. Quite bizarre.
http://www.labour.org.uk/w/labour-party-supporters

DavidL

Indigo said:

DavidL said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Like you I have found her underwhelming but that really doesn't matter. What matters is recovering the party from Corbyn while it still has a pulse.

Unlike Corbyn she will have the support of the most competent (again a strictly relevant term) MPs currently sitting in exile so she will have a stronger team too. If the party is to survive they really need to all get behind her vocally and unequivocally from the off.

As a speaker for Remain at the debate she is going to help the move from Labour to UKIP in the north by demonstrating that Labour doesn't speak for, or understand their concerns.

That depends. Does she accept the result? May has exactly the same issue but those who thrive in both camps will be those who accept the result and move on to the many practical issues and consequences that the result throws up.

Those who constantly whinge and moan about how the decision was reached, whether it was the right decision and feel the need to scream I told you so every time the FTSE dips for a few hours (yes ScottP, I am thinking of you) will not.

AlastairMeeks

IanB2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

And not just because of Corbyn's obvious unsuitability: they are in this position because the other wing of their party is equally bankrupt. John Harris in the Guardian today should be a must read for all labour supporters.

Quite. This is a story of the weakness of Labour's right more than the strength of the Labour left. Labour rightwingers correctly criticise the Labour hard left for being stuck in the 80s but they themselves have not moved their thinking on since the turn of the millennium.

Danny565

logical_song said:

Danny565 said:

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

51.9 to 48.1

A defeat, then - and a defeat despite all the institutional advantages a campaign could dream of.

Ergo, anyone who thought it was a good idea to back the Remain campaign (i.e. most of the Labour MPs who now think they are qualified to dish out lectures on how to be electable) clearly does not have a good sense of how the public think themselves.

MikeK

Indigo said:

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

You really must go to my biology class. On the door is a notice: Jabberwocky. Do enter.

david_herdson

Danny565 said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

A sane Labour friend of mine (properly, not this £3 nonsense) specifically in order to vote against Corbyn. I suspect his continued membership will depend on the outcome; I think he sees this as the last chance to get his party back.

It says something though that Angela Eagle is the vehicle for such a moment.

Beggars can't be choosers.

They could if Hilary Benn, Tom Watson or one of about half-a-dozen other top-level candidates manned up. If Labour wants a woman leader, Yvette Cooper would be a better option.

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

I disagree. Firstly, I doubt many (if any) did back Remain because they thought it was going to win - though they probably did expect that outcome; they backed it because they believed in it, which is fair enough.

Secondly, it seems probable that a majority of Labour voters did back Remain, though the Labour vote must also have been deeply split because in many heartland areas, the Leave vote was huge.

Thirdly, the result was extremely close, so tactical Leavers didn't 'read' the country's mood all that much better than Remainers: there was only 4% in it.

And fourthly, none of the Labour campaigners really set the world on fire, either Leave or Remain. If a mistake was made on either Labour side, it was the reluctance to get involved in what looked like a Tory internal spat.

But it's not just about one vote or one issue; leading Labour - or any party - successfully takes a whole lot of skills. Does Eagle have them? I'm not sure and frankly doubt it. But she could be enough to save Labour from going over the cliff. Even that isn't assured though and will depend on how the left-wing activists respond.

On that note though, a comment from a friend of a on Facebook: "Might join labour now. He's OUR choice of leader! Listen to the people! x", which I think says it all.

PlatoSaid

blackburn63 said:

OldKingCole said:

ManWithThePlan said:

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

Very few probably, which is why UKIP will surge and accelerate Labour's demise.

You mean you’ve got to be really thick to vote UKIP?

No, I DON”T think the WWC are; Poorly informed, perhaps.

I can't persuade people to agree with me, they are thick

You've been reading David Aaronovitch in The Times? He's totally lost it. Now he's arguing down in the comments with those who believe in democracy more than he does. It's really quite remarkably entertaining given 98% are WTF Are You On?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-anger-is-so-great-we-must-have-a-new-vote-wx6s953z7

DavidL

daodao said:

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

Anyone over 60 in the UK was brought up in era when homosexuality was a criminal offence and regarded as a cardinal sin. It is still regarded as the latter by Muslims (and Jews). If anyone was unfortunately afflicted by same-sex desire, it was the done thing to keep quiet and not be in the public eye. Beliefs and values inculcated in childhood last until one's dying day.

Rubbish. We have moved on and are the better for it. You don't get much older or crustier than the average Scottish tory (in my mid 50s I am probably still in the youth section) but Ruth is a hero to them and her sexual orientation is irrelevant. You really need to think through your attitudes. They are irrational and diminish you.

ydoethur

<

anotherDave said:

OldKingCole said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

I don't understand why Messrs Crabb and Fox are standing. They know they're not contenders, so they're just wasting everyone's time. Irresponsible.

Robert Carr said much the same thing about a 49-year-old junior cabinet minister standing against Heath in 1975. His friends laughed loudly.

Within the next 48 hours, he had been made acting leader following Heath's defeat and then sacked altogether by that same junior minister.

Underestimate junior ministers at your peril. In particular, Fox standing is a real blow to Johnson's hopes.

Jonathan

Danny565 said:

logical_song said:

Danny565 said:

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

51.9 to 48.1

A defeat, then - and a defeat despite all the institutional advantages a campaign could dream of.

Ergo, anyone who thought it was a good idea to back the Remain campaign (i.e. most of the Labour MPs who now think they are qualified to dish out lectures on how to be electable) clearly does not have a good sense of how the public think themselves.

Does that include Corbyn who - in his own words - worked as hard as possible for Remain?

MarqueeMark

daodao said:

Beliefs and values inculcated in childhood last until one's dying day.

They used to say that about voting Labour too.

We were told that same-sex marriage would drive millions of Tories into the arms of UKIP. In reality, I heard one person mention it on the doorsteps last year - and it still wasn't changing their vote.

People are far more "meh" about sexuality today. Thankfully.

Yorkcity

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

SquareRoot said:

Eagle's voice isn't strong enough and she talks too fast and isn't dynamic enough imho. If she becomes Labour leader, Labour are only slightly better off than with Corbyn. She could not imho win an election, but she might stave off disaster, which cannot be ignored. OTOH.... I think Mrs May would be v impressive. She won't stand any nonsense,.. just about the longest standing Home Sec and with virtually no crises on her cv.

Eagle would be better than Corbyn because she would have a full choice of Labour MPs to put in her shadow cabinet. The country needs an opposition to hold this government, and the next one, to account. The final Brexit deal is going to shape our future for many years, so we need the best one possible. It is also going to fail to deliver much of what the Leave campaign promised. If the whole debate is essentially an internal Tory conversation many millions of people are going to be forgotten.

Eagle can't win a general election, but she can deliver a credible opposition. Corbyn can do neither. Labour members, though, have no interest in that. Corbyn is going nowhere.

The Labour membership is divided on Corbyn. It may not be enough to get rid of him and save Labour, but don't tar all members with the same brush.

I understand and apologise. It's short hand. It's sane Labour members I feel most sorry for. It's doing my head in and I'm on the outside. What it must be like on the inside doesn't bear thinking about.

I noticed that last night the Holborn & St Pancras CLP voted against a motion in support of Corbyn. No £3ers involved, of course. It'll be different for the leadership election - and that's the problem.

I am glad you apologised it is welcome.

I know you are using short hand constantly , but at least Angela Eagle is trying and it is heart felt.
Shame a few others could not step up to the plate.
Please do not follow the type of poster who derides her for sexuality , that is a new low for this site.

PlatoSaid

MarqueeMark said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Eagles needs some media training, fast. She is always the rudest member of any panel, chuntering away over other panellists trying to have their say. She speaks too fast, then pauses obviously whilst she has to think. And that voice? It reminds me of the high-pitched whine of a mosquito.

I just despair of Labour putting up a half-decent opposition any time soon.

She does have a PPE degree from guess where though...

Indigo

Danny565 said:

logical_song said:

Danny565 said:

All of whom have such bad political judgement that they just enthusiastically backed the "Remain" campaign. Why should I trust they know how to win an election, if they mis-judged the public mood on the EU so badly?

51.9 to 48.1

A defeat, then - and a defeat despite all the institutional advantages a campaign could dream of.

Ergo, anyone who thought it was a good idea to back the Remain campaign (i.e. most of the Labour MPs who now think they are qualified to dish out lectures on how to be electable) clearly does not have a good sense of how the public think themselves.

51.9 to 48.1 is a bit disingenuous in this context as well, since Labour are not going to be that concerned with the views of voters in Tory safe seats. The real issue is that lack of understanding for voters in places like Stoke which came out 70% for Leave and is of course represented by that well known man of the working people Dr Hon. Tristram Hunt.

Even London, that bastion of Remain belief and fervour voted 40% for Leave.

kle4

asjohnstone said:

It's all a bit game of thrones, it's all female rulers there too

One of whom is a bit sociopathic and the other is psycopathic (and dim), I feel confident our options will be better.

Indigo said:

williamglenn said:

dugarbandier said:

MTimT said:

JennyFreeman said:

MTimT said:

Tim_B said:

A perfect illustration of the problem -

Stephen Sackur on hard Talk is interviewing a French woman in the government ( minister of the environment Segoline Royal) asking about whether Marine Le Pen will ever get a referendum in France, and how are they going to dissuade her?

"Well, we won't make david cameron's mistake, I can assure you. We are not going to have a referendum for France's exit from the European Union, I can assure you."

Sackur asks if that means they will never allow the French people to have a fundamental say in whether they want to be in the European Union. You don't believe in democracy?

"We are not going to do that. We believe in democracy, but we believe in the right question and the right answer. The right question is not whether you want to stay in or out of Europe.

The right question is what kind of Europe do you want?

Indeed. The people are too thick to work out what question is most important to them.

The sneering snobbishness of the metropolitan elites is something to behold. The people have given them a good kicking in Britain and will do so in other countries for as long as there's this sort of supercilious attitude.

Let's hope so.

It's amazing that people like Farage, Boris and Trump can somehow be considered not to be members of metropolitan elites

I wouldn't like to put them all in the same category, but I believe Champagne Populism is the new Champagne Socialism. Too many privileged people claiming to speak for the common man when they really just want to score points against members of their own class.

72% of Common men just spoke on behalf of the common man, and everyone is trying as hard as they can to brush it under the carpet and not give them what they asked for.

Untrue. Very few people seem to e suggesting we don't Leave, and leaving was the only thing we definitively asked for. What form of leave we'd like is pure conjecture, and so anything goes as long as it fits under the broad leave banner

Indigo

MikeK said:

Indigo said:

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

You really must go to my biology class. On the door is a notice: Jabberwocky. Do enter.

I have years of indoctrination in Lewis Carroll, when I was a kid my father used to read us his books every year when were were on holiday, another of those instant family traditions. I am currently working on an abridged and illustrated version of the Alice books for school children here in the Philippines.

david_kendrick1

"So, Mrs May, what did you during the referendum?"

"I hid. That was because Brexit doesn't interest me much one-way-or the other".

"So why should you lead our exit negotiations?"

"I work hard, and I don't drink."

The tory activists may be impressed. For Leavers, not so much...

MarqueeMark

david_herdson said:

(snip)

Secondly, it seems probable that a majority of Labour voters did back Remain, though the Labour vote must also have been deeply split because in many heartland areas, the Leave vote was huge.

Be interesting to see the Labour vote split with London taken out. London has masked that, in the rest of the country, there was far less enthusiasm from Labour voters to Remain.

anotherDave

ydoethur said:

anotherDave said:

OldKingCole said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth like Crabb.

Crabb’s got to have a fair amount of the Welsh equivalent of chutzpah (English usage) to even stand!

Did see if I could find an equivalent word, but there doesn’t appear to be one!

I don't understand why Messrs Crabb and Fox are standing. They know they're not contenders, so they're just wasting everyone's time. Irresponsible.

Robert Carr said much the same thing about a 49-year-old junior cabinet minister standing against Heath in 1975. His friends laughed loudly.

Within the next 48 hours, he had been made acting leader following Heath's defeat and then sacked altogether by that same junior minister.

Underestimate junior ministers at your peril. In particular, Fox standing is a real blow to Johnson's hopes.

I just feel that this contest, with the Leave negotiations being held up by the result, needs to be resolved asap. Not a good time to be showboating.

Mrs Thatcher, as I recall represented a particular faction within the party. I'm not aware that that is true for Dr Fox, or Mr Crabb.

AlastairMeeks

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

Sandpit

PlatoSaid said:

blackburn63 said:

OldKingCole said:

ManWithThePlan said:

logical_song said:

ManWithThePlan said:

I am still tickled by the idea that London's financial sector will be shared out between Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt. The whole advantage of a financial cluster is that it exists in one place where all the other firms and talent is. Amsterdam is not even a second tier financial cluster. The bankers will surely love the 49% income tax rate in Paris with a wealth tax on top. And Frankfurt is one of the most boring cities in the world. People dread going on business trips there, God forbid living there. Meanwhile London will increase the two thirds of financial service exports to non-EU countries as we sign more trade deals, and we can also scrap the banker bonus cap.

I wonder how many wwc Leave voters realised that they were voting for bankers bonuses to be increased.

Very few probably, which is why UKIP will surge and accelerate Labour's demise.

You mean you’ve got to be really thick to vote UKIP?

No, I DON”T think the WWC are; Poorly informed, perhaps.

I can't persuade people to agree with me, they are thick

You've been reading David Aaronovitch in The Times? He's totally lost it. Now he's arguing down in the comments with those who believe in democracy more than he does. It's really quite remarkably entertaining given 98% are WTF Are You On?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-anger-is-so-great-we-must-have-a-new-vote-wx6s953z7

There's certainly an awful lot of supposedly intelligent commentators showing their true colours in the past few days. That they, the elites, should run things and the little people should just shut up and do what they're told.

Well, the people have had their say - thanks Mr Cameron - and they've spoken, so deal with it.

Charles

IanB2 said:

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

I assumed this guy was a troll. Particularly the reference to Farage's speech, which was a national embarrassment. He may have woken up this morning but his mind has not.

I don't think you can make a case that Farage's speech was a "national embarassment". Made clear (to those that hasn't realised slready) that the guy's an utter w*nker but that's a personal failing

kle4

daodao said:

DavidL said:

daodao said:

FPT:

The PLP don't get it if they think that choosing a dyke as leader will endear them to older socially conservative WWC voters in the North of England and Midlands, whose views led to the Leave result last week. She also has very limited appeal to the Labour selectorate, who placed her 4th in the last deputy leadership contest. She is the wrong candidate to challenge JC.

If the Labour party aren't careful, UKIP could win swathes of seats in former Labour heartlands, like the SNP have done in the West of Scotland, at the next GE. I would personally prefer Farage as LOTO, to hold the new Con government's feet to the fire and deliver on the key arguments for Brexit, namely sovereignty and effective control and restriction of immigration. He made an excellent speech in the EU "parliament" the other day.

Re other elections in the next year or so, Trump has a very good chance of becoming POTUS, as Clinton is an appalling candidate. I wouldn't bet against M_LP in France either.

What on earth does her sexual orientation have to do with anything? Depressing that sort of comment is even still thought let alone made.

Anyone over 60 in the UK was brought up in era when homosexuality was a criminal offence and regarded as a cardinal sin. It is still regarded as the latter by Muslims (and Jews). If anyone was unfortunately afflicted by same-sex desire, it was the done thing to keep quiet and not be in the public eye. Beliefs and values inculcated in childhood last until one's dying day.

Plenty of over 60 homosexuals out there, so i guess that inculcating didn't take for some.

Aren't most of the Scottish party leaders gay? Doesn't seem to do them harm, and while Scotland lines to think it's really different, it's social attitudes are not that different from the rest of us, thank goodness.

And even if we accept the premise it might prove a problem, I for one had no idea of Eagles orientation, and who woukd use it against her in a campaign even obliquely?

MarqueeMark

AlastairMeeks said:

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

I'm guessing Nicky Morgan will have had a slap from the Reality Monster.

Andrea probably gets a more sympathetic "I'd love to, but..." Maybe some people will vote for others but on the proviso that Andrea is given a top finance job. She deserves that.

foxinsoxuk

alex. said:

If the Labour membership "electorate" was broadly the same people as last year, then you would have to think that Corbyn would surely struggle against a single candidate. He got 60% against a divided opposition, which doesn't seem insurmountable. However the Labour membership is a movable feast because of this £3 thing.

One minor point though - I assume the 3quidders from last time do not have a vote this time unless they pay up again. I wonder how many of them will be aware of that and be surprised when the ballot paper doesn't drop through the letterbox?

We 3 quidders are still on the mailing list. I get emails most weeks, most days during the referendum.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

I think that is plenty. Indeed in the case of Fox and Morgan rather too many.

anotherDave

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

I'm guessing Nicky Morgan will have had a slap from the Reality Monster.

Andrea probably gets a more sympathetic "I'd love to, but..." Maybe some people will vote for others but on the proviso that Andrea is given a top finance job. She deserves that.

Is the MPs vote a secret ballot?

kle4

MarqueeMark said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

Eagles needs some media training, fast. She is always the rudest member of any panel, chuntering away over other panellists trying to have their say. She speaks too fast, then pauses obviously whilst she has to think. And that voice? It reminds me of the high-pitched whine of a mosquito.

I just despair of Labour putting up a half-decent opposition any time soon.

Being a rude panel member has never hurt Boris, he's terribly rude. Granted he's charismatic, which helps.

blackburn63

@david_herdson


You say none of the Labour campaigners set the world on fire I disagree, Gisela was superb.

SimonStClare

Morning all.

Don’t think Labour are ready for the ‘dramatic feminisation’ of the party quite yet, as demonstrated by their last leadership, deputy leadership and mayoral elections. Besides, Labour is facing an existential crisis, the coming leadership contest will be a battle between two opposing ideologies and possibly, for the very survival of the party, the gender of the candidates is not a factor imho, nor will it play a part in the final outcome.

stjohn

MikeK said:

Indigo said:

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

You really must go to my biology class. On the door is a notice: Jabberwocky. Do enter.

The Bandersnatch is frumious. A portmanteau of fuming and furious. More May than Boris I would suggest. Brillig debate.

Charles

MikeK said:

Indigo said:

MikeK said:

nunu said:

not_on_fire said:

I'd never heard of or seen Eagle until the referendum debate, but she sounded like a village idiot in that one. Not convinced she'd be any improvement on Corbyn.

May would destroy her.

Yep, Eagle - a person so misnamed would be hard to find - is really a pigeon sent to be prey for the May Jubjub bird or the Boris Bandersnatch.

I think you might have those around the wrong way, according to Hunting of the Snark a Jubjub bird is a "desperate bird that lives in perpetual passion", now does that sound more like Boris or May

A Bandersnatch meanwhile is "swift moving creature with snapping jaws, capable of extending its neck"

You really must go to my biology class. On the door is a notice: Jabberwocky. Do enter.

Do you see enough of a risk of a Jabberwocky turning up that you need to put up a specific cease and desist notice?

*innocent face*

IanB2

david_kendrick1 said:

"So, Mrs May, what did you during the referendum?"

"I hid. That was because Brexit doesn't interest me much one-way-or the other".

"So why should you lead our exit negotiations?"

"I work hard, and I don't drink."

The tory activists may be impressed. For Leavers, not so much...

Not that I agree with her, but I think she is a leaver. Her speech on the ECJ/ECHR was a proxy and as close as she could come to disloyalty whilst keeping her job. She stayed with remain for the same reason that Boris joined leave - they both thought it was to their advantage and they both thought that remain would win. The one thing I am confident of is that their two personal votes in the Referendum were cast in opposite directions!

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

F1: nice piece by McNish on the driver market. If anyone sees that up on Ladbrokes/Betfair, do let me know.

On-topic: not really. It's just that Labour screwed up and the only person seemingly willing to put herself forward happens to be a woman. It's not really feminisation of politics anymore than a return to chaps in charge would be masculinisation.

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

I think that is plenty. Indeed in the case of Fox and Morgan rather too many.

I am not a fan of Liam Fox but he speaks for a grouping of the Conservative party. It would be helpful to see its Parliamentary strength.

I wonder whether we might see one or two more unanticipated names come forward. Jeremy Hunt was musing on his own position. Has Phillip Hammond yet said what he is doing?

AlastairMeeks

anotherDave said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

So:

Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb are declared runners. Boris Johnson and Theresa May are certain to enter the race today. Will there be any others? Andrea Leadsom and Nicky Morgan have flirted with the idea but are they actually going to stand? Any others?

I'm guessing Nicky Morgan will have had a slap from the Reality Monster.

Andrea probably gets a more sympathetic "I'd love to, but..." Maybe some people will vote for others but on the proviso that Andrea is given a top finance job. She deserves that.

Is the MPs vote a secret ballot?

Yes. Public endorsements are for the public only.