Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Too late now. We will be leaving the EU. The only thing you can do now is squeal.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Ireland 2008/09
lol, that wasn't by popular demand (should have caveated my original reply). That was because Brussels didn't like the first outcome.
It was by popular demand! Ireland voted by a large majority second time round to do the deal with the EU. Who knows, maybe the UK would too, depending on the deal.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win a GE on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
Do you have a suggested candidate Rod, who might achieve this objective (always depending on who's running the Labour by that time)?
I've been backing Fox all evening. He's the stop-Boris candidate...
A few more votes in 2005, and he would have been in the final, and would have given Cameron a close run, perhaps won.
What is his MP following these days? This is the requirement at this stage.
Is there no other? Raab possibly?
Raab is interesting actually. He's had a good campaign and he does fit the bill quite well.
If we was coming at this from LOTO then I'd be tempted to go for him but I'm not sure he's quite high profile enough to be put in as Con leader AND Prime Minister.
If the Toes are turfed out in 2020 he's probable, IMO.
Ok this is not a particularly positive predecessor, but it blazed the trail:
Blair did it with NO prior ministerial experience. Simply a winning look, TV friendly and, of course, his party need to change to accomodate disaster.
Watch Raab demolish the greeny lucas. Maybe he is ready
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Ireland 2008/09
lol, that wasn't by popular demand (should have caveated my original reply). That was because Brussels didn't like the first outcome.
It was by popular demand! Ireland voted by a large majority second time round to do the deal with the EU. Who knows, maybe the UK would too, depending on the deal.
Huh, TIL! Fair enough then, although Ireland did secure some concessions, and the economy had tanked significantly in the interim (although maybe the same will happen here)
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
stunning admission.....
"This isn't a score like a football match where the score stands"
Sorry but I think you will find it very much is. Actually your reaction does not surprise me. You do realise 52% is a majority and it was by BBC figures 52.9 %.
Your position is a replica of the arrogance regarding democracy that the EU consistently shows. It wasn't immigration that ever got near my thoughts as I have consistently said I like it and we need it but controlled. What made we vote leave is your own and the EU's attitude to the democratic process when it is exercised by the people.
It's why you lost. It's over so get over it.
PS precise figure please for your claim that " some of the people" keep in mind you will need to get to at least a million plus before the outcome is in any way under threat. Even then it's not because they made their mark.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
You're incredibly tiresome. You name call us as racists.
When I point out that those who don't bother to vote, yet yap all over Twitter and click on a petition link to complain - it's entirely fair to point out that a majority weren't arsed when it mattered.
It's so childish.
I didn't name call you as racist so stop feeling sorry for yourself, you won the referendum, deal with. How do you know they don't vote? Do you assume "they're all the same" despite polls which, for all their flaws, suggest most 25-34 year olds voted?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Article 50 is irreversible.
In that case Leavers need to get on with it.
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Surely if it irreversible then it is best not to rush things?
Well I had written a thread featuring AV* in the morning, but it turned into a right hatchet job on Boris, but I've had to pull it, as I was shocked by my own vituperativeness at Boris.
Contained the line 'like the many mistresses of Boris, should you be laying him?'
*The quasi-AV voting system the Tories use to elect their leads.
It's not AV - it's actually Exhaustive Ballot. You only get to cast one vote per round!
Repeat after me: E X H A U S T I V E . B A L L O T.
The candidate with the lowest vote in each round is eliminated, until there are two candidates left, and the one that gets over 50% wins.
Tell me how that is not AV?
The principle is similar to AV, but in practice it can work out differently. The difference is that in an exhaustive ballot (depending on how many rounds there are) you know who the remaining candidates are, as do the candidates, and there is usually scope for some campaigning between the rounds. This gives remaining candidates opportunity to make policy bids for the voters of eliminated candidates, and also scope for voters to cast their earlier votes more tactically to block a candidate they don't want (seen sometimes in France against the FN for example), knowing they can still switch their later vote back to their preferred candidate. This is only possible under AV if you have a good idea of the likely order of popularity of the various candidates, which isn't always the case.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Actually your reaction does not surprise me. You do realise 52% is a majority and it was by BBC figures 52.9 %.
Your position is a replica of the arrogance regarding democracy that the EU consistently shows. It wasn't immigration that ever got near my thoughts as I have consistently said I like it and we need it but controlled. What made we vote leave is your own and the EU's attitude to the democratic process when it is exercised by the people.
It's why you lost. It's over so get over it.
PS precise figure please for your claim that " some of the people" keep in mind you will need to get to at least a million plus before the outcome is in any way under threat. Even then it's not because they made their mark.
Excluding Scotland (and I can understand there point of view as they have voted differently basically every election since 1975), it was 54/46....that is very clear.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
No it wouldn't. The rules on Continuator states are quite clear and the loss of less than 10% of the population would not be sufficient to cause any change in the status of the rest of the UK as a Continuator.
Yes it would on a simple majority vote of the UN without a Security Council Veto. This is set out and known. It was admitted by the UK government legal opinion on Indyref 1 and was never formally addressed by that opinion, it just said "hey, we would be fine". It was nonsense then and nonsense now.
Population share does not determine continuation or succession.
Not so. All previous cases where there has been a challenge have been decided by the International Court of Justice not by the UN General Assembly.
This would include the cases with a Security Council member. Hint, the RoC are not a permanent member of the Security Council any more and the ICJ were not involved. The UN simply decided, by majority voting in the General Assembly, which state (the PRC) would be considered the continuing state.
"The outcome of the EU referendum in the United Kingdom is good news for Icelanders and presents an opportunity for Iceland and other countries in the North-Atlantic according to the country's President Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson."
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would br better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Trouble is we would have activated article 50 at that point, so the referendum couldn't be "accept brexit"/"stay in EU".
There may be ways around it. Basically you can make any treaty change you like as long as you have unanimity. So the Treaty change would be that the UK's withdrawal was itself withdrawn. But of course there is no certainty you will get agreement.
"The Daily Hate" is of course an adaption of its former proprietor's expressed wish to give the public their daily hate There is no more a secret EU report on Scotland than there was a real Zinoviev letter, which is why the Mail used to be called The Forgers' Gazette!
The trouble is that the BBC actually discuss this rubbish as if it were anything more than the Mail's wet dreams. There is no Commission ruling on Scotland because they will only decide on specific cases after a formal approach. That will not happen until after talks with Sturgeon.
In any case the Council of Ministers will determine this. It is unlikely that Spain will find this a problem precedent given that it has been provoked by a state withdrawal. There is little chance of Spain following suit to allow Catelonia to use this as a precedent.
On the side of an accomodation with Scotland is that it provides the best possible answer to those who believe that Brexit will break up the EU. They would simply reply that Brexit has broken up Britain.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
Why do people think Scotland has to be successor state to the UK to qualify for EU membership? Scotland's name needs to be listed on the Treaty of Union, so it's a treaty change and a new accession. There is a question of whether it could keep the UK's opt outs (answer: probably a couple - most importantly the UK CTA with Ireland, but would have to join the euro and charge VAT on food). The next question is whether the EU would offer Scotland accelerated accession. This question came up during the 2014 when it was reckoned the EU probably would do so. In the special circumstances of Scotland deciding to stay in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves would make it more likely again, I believe. Scotland would aim to complete EU accession, dissolution of the united kingdom simultaneously with Brexit. Finally there is the question of whether Scotland would be prepared to reduce public spending very drastically to meet EU fiscal rules and whether the loss of the internal UK market is too high a price to pay.
Its name?
RoC PRC.
Enough of this nonsense. If the EU (via QMV) decided Scotland was the continuing state and inherited the UK treaty obligations (by QMV) then there is nothing stopping the EU calling Scotland "the UK" while recognising in all other ways it was Scotland.
The UK's treaty obligations stretch back a bit further than 1972. Not sure Scotland would be happy with picking up responsibility for a lot of them.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Article 50 is irreversible.
In that case Leavers need to get on with it.
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Surely if it irreversible then it is best not to rush things?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Article 50 is irreversible.
In that case Leavers need to get on with it.
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Surely if it irreversible then it is best not to rush things?
Getting cold feet?
Nope, just don't see the need to waste three months of the two years maximum we get to negotiate. We are obviously not in a position to start, so why start the clock?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It is simply intolerant to tell people to shut up for other people's actions. If Ukip continued to exist and to call for a referendum after a REMAIN vote as Nigel Farage said he would, would you have described that as "intolerant"?
Oh do get over yourself. I've no idea how old you are and frankly it's immaterial. Your posts are so narrow minded and entitled. We all have one vote - you appear to think yours is a magic bean.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Article 50 is irreversible.
In that case Leavers need to get on with it.
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Surely if it irreversible then it is best not to rush things?
Remain said "there's no turning back".
Bollox of course. But they still said it.
All the Project Fear stuff is completely worthless now. It's much of the reason why there will be no pull back from the 65% Yes in Scotland currently polled.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
Parliament is not going to set aside the result of the referendum nor will it be rerun. There may be a major parliamentary battle over the single market though.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
So what ? This was not a general election. The pound has fallen at exactly the wrong time for the Costa del Sol holidays. Sentiments will change very quickly.
Anyway, the Brexiteers wanted OUT so badly. Why the reluctance to invoke Article 50 ? Frit ?
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
No it wouldn't. The rules on Continuator states are quite clear and the loss of less than 10% of the population would not be sufficient to cause any change in the status of the rest of the UK as a Continuator.
RUK would keep the permanent UNSC seat with exactly 100% certainty. At the end of 1991 Russia had only about 50% of the population of the USSR but it was agreed that it would get the permanent UNSC seat and all of the treaty rights and responsibilities that were once the USSR's.
The Scottish local council government can do many things, but fuck around with things like this it can't.
As for Scotland as a continuing EU member state, that's a joke. It would have to apply for membership. Sturgeon is just wasting public money. She also gets right up my nose.
"The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh"
Since the British government has not yet invoked Article 50, surely it would be a major breach of protocol for them to accept her invitation unless it's okayed by the Foreign Office?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It is simply intolerant to tell people to shut up for other people's actions. If Ukip continued to exist and to call for a referendum after a REMAIN vote as Nigel Farage said he would, would you have described that as "intolerant"?
Yes absolutely
Consistently I have said on here this forum for months that if it is 50% + one person ** then that is the will of the people. I also stated many times that if that happens to favour the remain side then we embrace it 100% , we join Schengen and I said we even go as far as adopt the Euro.
Simply because I believe in the democratic vote and the will of the people. Sadly Remainers don't.
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win a GE on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
Do you have a suggested candidate Rod, who might achieve this objective (always depending on who's running the Labour by that time)?
I've been backing Fox all evening. He's the stop-Boris candidate...
A few more votes in 2005, and he would have been in the final, and would have given Cameron a close run, perhaps won.
What is his MP following these days? This is the requirement at this stage.
Is there no other? Raab possibly?
Raab is interesting actually. He's had a good campaign and he does fit the bill quite well.
If we was coming at this from LOTO then I'd be tempted to go for him but I'm not sure he's quite high profile enough to be put in as Con leader AND Prime Minister.
If the Toes are turfed out in 2020 he's probable, IMO.
Ok this is not a particularly positive predecessor, but it blazed the trail:
Blair did it with NO prior ministerial experience. Simply a winning look, TV friendly and, of course, his party need to change to accomodate disaster.
Watch Raab demolish the greeny lucas. Maybe he is ready
I didn't know Raab at all before VoteLeave - he's very good on the telly.
He looks a bit too young for high office for me. And I'm not even 50. Cameron managed it - can Raab?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
100% requirement for all future referenda?
No - but don't claim that 52% is "the choice and will of the people".
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
So what ? This was not a general election. The pound has fallen at exactly the wrong time for the Costa del Sol holidays. Sentiments will change very quickly.
Anyway, the Brexiteers wanted OUT so badly. Why the reluctance to invoke Article 50 ? Frit ?
Because there is literally no point in invoking it now if we don't have to. We would just be shortening the negotiation period available to us once the new PM is installed. I'm more amazed how keen remainers are for article 50 to be invoked
Why do people think Scotland has to be successor state to the UK to qualify for EU membership? Scotland's name needs to be listed on the Treaty of Union, so it's a treaty change and a new accession. There is a question of whether it could keep the UK's opt outs (answer: probably a couple - most importantly the UK CTA with Ireland, but would have to join the euro and charge VAT on food). The next question is whether the EU would offer Scotland accelerated accession. This question came up during the 2014 when it was reckoned the EU probably would do so. In the special circumstances of Scotland deciding to stay in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves would make it more likely again, I believe. Scotland would aim to complete EU accession, dissolution of the united kingdom simultaneously with Brexit. Finally there is the question of whether Scotland would be prepared to reduce public spending very drastically to meet EU fiscal rules and whether the loss of the internal UK market is too high a price to pay.
Its name?
RoC PRC.
Enough of this nonsense. If the EU (via QMV) decided Scotland was the continuing state and inherited the UK treaty obligations (by QMV) then there is nothing stopping the EU calling Scotland "the UK" while recognising in all other ways it was Scotland.
What do you mean, enough of this nonsense? It's much more nonsensical of the EU to pretend that Scotland is really the UK and nothing has changed then to agree to Scotland's accession in its own right, which is entirely feasible in the timeframe, if people want it to be.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
We, as in everyone in UK, should worry why young people don't vote. Where does that leave democracy in twenty years time?
With a great concern. They have to feel their vote counts, means something but when only 35% bother and then the younger people complain?
Perhaps it needs to be taught in schools I don't know it's not my area but it is good to see young people on this site like EPG expressing their opinions. It's a start perhaps and keeps us older ones focuses on what the young people feel.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Article 50 is irreversible.
In that case Leavers need to get on with it.
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Surely if it irreversible then it is best not to rush things?
Getting cold feet?
Nope, just don't see the need to waste three months of the two years maximum we get to negotiate. We are obviously not in a position to start, so why start the clock?
So, neither the Single Market nor the Financial Services "passport" is on offer. But you promised ?
To be fair, if we have a General Election and a party stands on a platform of re-rerunning the referendum, and they win the election, then they will have a mandate to re-run the referendum. Nobody seems to have any problem with the Scots re-running their referendum a mere 2 years after the last one, so why should it be any different with the EU. "Material change" i hear you say - well who's to say their won't be material change in relation to the EU?
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
Shares and GBP may have risen through the week for various reasons. The actual impact of the vote was to reduce shares by 10 to 20 per cent in their international purchasing power. I would be eager to wait a few months of EU-limbo before judging things, though.
To be fair, if we have a General Election and a party stands on a platform of re-rerunning the referendum, and they win the election, then they will have a mandate to re-run the referendum. Nobody seems to have any problem with the Scots re-running their referendum a mere 2 years after the last one, so why should it be any different with the EU. "Material change" i hear you say - well who's to say their won't be material change in relation to the EU?
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
Unless the GE is called the day the new Tory leader is elected, we'll have had to invoke article 50. That would make things complicated.
Why do people think Scotland has to be successor state to the UK to qualify for EU membership? Scotland's name needs to be listed on the Treaty of Union, so it's a treaty change and a new accession. There is a question of whether it could keep the UK's opt outs (answer: probably a couple - most importantly the UK CTA with Ireland, but would have to join the euro and charge VAT on food). The next question is whether the EU would offer Scotland accelerated accession. This question came up during the 2014 when it was reckoned the EU probably would do so. In the special circumstances of Scotland deciding to stay in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves would make it more likely again, I believe. Scotland would aim to complete EU accession, dissolution of the united kingdom simultaneously with Brexit. Finally there is the question of whether Scotland would be prepared to reduce public spending very drastically to meet EU fiscal rules and whether the loss of the internal UK market is too high a price to pay.
Its name?
RoC PRC.
Enough of this nonsense. If the EU (via QMV) decided Scotland was the continuing state and inherited the UK treaty obligations (by QMV) then there is nothing stopping the EU calling Scotland "the UK" while recognising in all other ways it was Scotland.
The UK's treaty obligations stretch back a bit further than 1972. Not sure Scotland would be happy with picking up responsibility for a lot of them.
The UK won't exist after a Yes vote.
It is then up to all other countries and treaty organisations to recognise (of their own volition) what is the continuing state (if any) and what are the successor states (if any).
If it so choose, any country or treaty organisation could reset the successor countries back to 1707.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
So what ? This was not a general election. The pound has fallen at exactly the wrong time for the Costa del Sol holidays. Sentiments will change very quickly.
Anyway, the Brexiteers wanted OUT so badly. Why the reluctance to invoke Article 50 ? Frit ?
Because there is literally no point in invoking it now if we don't have to. We would just be shortening the negotiation period available to us once the new PM is installed. I'm more amazed how keen remainers are for article 50 to be invoked
Then we will be still in the EU. Why not invoke in 2050 ? Then you would have "won" and we will be happy too !
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
You're incredibly tiresome. You name call us as racists.
When I point out that those who don't bother to vote, yet yap all over Twitter and click on a petition link to complain - it's entirely fair to point out that a majority weren't arsed when it mattered.
It's so childish.
I didn't name call you as racist so stop feeling sorry for yourself, you won the referendum, deal with. How do you know they don't vote? Do you assume "they're all the same" despite polls which, for all their flaws, suggest most 25-34 year olds voted?
You've said it many times on here and therefore smeared me by association. And we've seen from a large post vote poll that they didn't bother to turn out.
I'm surprised given your time on PB that data isn't important to your position. You rubbished the Ashcroft stuff because it didn't fit your personal narrative. You didn't even bother to read it.
We all have a position on how best to solve issues - ignoring what's inconvenient isn't a killer argument here.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
So what ? This was not a general election. The pound has fallen at exactly the wrong time for the Costa del Sol holidays. Sentiments will change very quickly.
Anyway, the Brexiteers wanted OUT so badly. Why the reluctance to invoke Article 50 ? Frit ?
Because there is literally no point in invoking it now if we don't have to. We would just be shortening the negotiation period available to us once the new PM is installed. I'm more amazed how keen remainers are for article 50 to be invoked
Then we will be still in the EU. Why not invoke in 2050 ? Then you would have "won" and we will be happy too !
A 'pocket veto' so to speak? Interesting, but I doubt it'd work.
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
That is exactly the thinking that was applied when Russia took over the treaty rights and responsibilities of the USSR, including the permanent seat on the UNSC, having only about 50% of the Soviet population.
British operational nukes are all carried on subs, though.
Scottish nationalists sound like such petulant children sometimes. "Continuator state" indeed! Next they'll want sovereignty over London.
To be fair, if we have a General Election and a party stands on a platform of re-rerunning the referendum, and they win the election, then they will have a mandate to re-run the referendum. Nobody seems to have any problem with the Scots re-running their referendum a mere 2 years after the last one, so why should it be any different with the EU. "Material change" i hear you say - well who's to say their won't be material change in relation to the EU?
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
I think Farron has said the LibDems will stand on a platform of taking Britain back into the EU without a referendum. And if they get a majority and form a government, they will have mandate to do what they say.
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
Gosh Sunil better make sure that your Thomas the Tank Engine alarm clock was set correctly.
Hate to think if the entire population turned out and voted one way while you overslept. Arguments would go on for years
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
To be fair, if we have a General Election and a party stands on a platform of re-rerunning the referendum, and they win the election, then they will have a mandate to re-run the referendum. Nobody seems to have any problem with the Scots re-running their referendum a mere 2 years after the last one, so why should it be any different with the EU. "Material change" i hear you say - well who's to say their won't be material change in relation to the EU?
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
Yep. And Leavers would then have to argue why the primacy of Parliament wasn't, er, in this case, er, primary.
To be fair, if we have a General Election and a party stands on a platform of re-rerunning the referendum, and they win the election, then they will have a mandate to re-run the referendum. Nobody seems to have any problem with the Scots re-running their referendum a mere 2 years after the last one, so why should it be any different with the EU. "Material change" i hear you say - well who's to say their won't be material change in relation to the EU?
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
Yep. And Leavers would then have to argue why the primacy of Parliament wasn't, er, in this case, er, primary.
There would be the problem that article 50 would have been invoked, unless the GE is immediately after the Tory leadership election (which maybe somewhat likely)
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
52% is a bigger number than 48% last time I checked...
You can't say it is choice and will of the people. 100% is a bigger number than 52% last time I checked.
100% requirement for all future referenda?
No - but don't claim that 52% is "the choice and will of the people".
RUK would keep the permanent UNSC seat with exactly 100% certainty. At the end of 1991 Russia had only about 50% of the population of the USSR but it was agreed that it would get the permanent UNSC seat and all of the treaty rights and responsibilities that were once the USSR's.
The Scottish local council government can do many things, but fuck around with things like this it can't.
As for Scotland as a continuing EU member state, that's a joke. It would have to apply for membership. Sturgeon is just wasting public money. She also gets right up my nose.
"The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh"
Since the British government has not yet invoked Article 50, surely it would be a major breach of protocol for them to accept her invitation unless it's okayed by the Foreign Office?
Russia had an agreement signed by all 14 states of the CIS. It was also backed by all four other UN Security Council members as being a necessary part of the UN Security Council framework and was approved by a majority vote of the UN General Assembly (which does NOT have a Veto).
If the UN General Assembly had voted No to Russia as the continuing state of the USSR then it would not have gotten the Security Council seat (and we would probably have ended up at war with Russia).
The UK is not Russia, it is a tiny island at the edge of Europe without enough Nuclear Arms to destory any country larger than Italy. It is also a subservient country of NATO and on the leash of the United States. There is no compelling reason for the UN (whose majority heavily favour Security Council reform) to grant a seat to England and Wales following the dissolution of the United Kingdom.
At heart it is a fantasy to suggest that England and Wales would inherit the UN Security Council seat of the UK. It will not happen. It cannot happen.
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
Sounds a top evening. What did the owner of the French bar think of Brexit though? Has he packed his bags?
An interesting experiment would be to compare the number of Londoners who say they'll move to Scotland if it becomes independent within the European Union with the number of Londoners who actually make the move if it happens.
I see we are getting yet another false narrative. We have had its not fair despite all the youngsters voting Remain and it was the selfish oldies that did it, now that is a busted flush.
The new false narrative on the basis of a handful of people in a voxpop saying not sure I would vote the same way, or I would have voted but didn't, somehow a million+ people would vote differently and we would vote to Remain if the vote was held on Thursday.
You've said it many times on here and therefore smeared me by association. And we've seen from a large post vote poll that they didn't bother to turn out.
I'm surprised given your time on PB that data isn't important to your position. You rubbished the Ashcroft stuff because it didn't fit your personal narrative. You didn't even bother to read it.
We all have a position on how best to solve issues - ignoring what's inconvenient isn't a killer argument here.
I didn't say you were a racist. Don't say I did and engage with what people actually write. I rubbish Ashcroft because people tell him things that aren't true. I read his report but I put massive error bars around all his findings after losing money on his wrong impressions in the past. One finding across many polls and not just Ashcroft was that most 25-34 year olds voted, so stop assuming they did not. I make lots of money by betting on outcomes I don't like, most recently Donald Trump to win the nomination (I didn't put money on EU ref and went to bed during the big action). I like data but I don't trust methodologies that report 30 Lib Dems at GE 2015.
I was curious at the end about the threat that all the young Brits were so horrified at the idea of leaving the EU that loads of them were going to emigrate in protest.
Emigrating takes even more time and energy than voting - you can't even go out and get it done while you go the hairdressers or shops, it takes that much effort.
Seem to recall young people making similar threats when Cameron was first election and I wonder if there was any statistically significant blip in the 18-25 emigration figures.
Young Londoners of my acquaintance seem to be having some sort of collective nervous breakdown - perhaps a few might just bugger off because they just can't take living in the same country as a warehouse stacker in Wisbech anymore. But I think that will prove a step too far. In the meantime, there seem to be about a hundred people a second signing The Petition, which takes rather less effort. Will easily be 3 million come Sunday morning.
RUK would keep the permanent UNSC seat with exactly 100% certainty. At the end of 1991 Russia had only about 50% of the population of the USSR but it was agreed that it would get the permanent UNSC seat and all of the treaty rights and responsibilities that were once the USSR's.
The Scottish local council government can do many things, but fuck around with things like this it can't.
As for Scotland as a continuing EU member state, that's a joke. It would have to apply for membership. Sturgeon is just wasting public money. She also gets right up my nose.
"The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh"
Since the British government has not yet invoked Article 50, surely it would be a major breach of protocol for them to accept her invitation unless it's okayed by the Foreign Office?
Russia had an agreement signed by all 14 states of the CIS. It was also backed by all four other UN Security Council members as being a necessary part of the UN Security Council framework and was approved by a majority vote of the UN General Assembly (which does NOT have a Veto).
If the UN General Assembly had voted No to Russia as the continuing state of the USSR then it would not have gotten the Security Council seat (and we would probably have ended up at war with Russia).
The UK is not Russia, it is a tiny island at the edge of Europe without enough Nuclear Arms to destory any country larger than Italy. It is also a subservient country of NATO and on the leash of the United States. There is no compelling reason for the UN (whose majority heavily favour Security Council reform) to grant a seat to England and Wales following the dissolution of the United Kingdom.
At heart it is a fantasy to suggest that England and Wales would inherit the UN Security Council seat of the UK. It will not happen. It cannot happen.
I was curious at the end about the threat that all the young Brits were so horrified at the idea of leaving the EU that loads of them were going to emigrate in protest.
Emigrating takes even more time and energy than voting - you can't even go out and get it done while you go the hairdressers or shops, it takes that much effort.
Seem to recall young people making similar threats when Cameron was first election and I wonder if there was any statistically significant blip in the 18-25 emigration figures.
Young Londoners of my acquaintance seem to be having some sort of collective nervous breakdown - perhaps a few might just bugger off because they just can't take living in the same country as a warehouse stacker in Wisbech anymore. But I think that will prove a step too far. In the meantime, there seem to be about a hundred people a second signing The Petition, which takes rather less effort. Will easily be 3 million come Sunday morning.
Depends on whether the warehouse stocker in Wisbech is white British or white European, presumably.
What do you mean, enough of this nonsense? It's much more nonsensical of the EU to pretend that Scotland is really the UK and nothing has changed then to agree to Scotland's accession in its own right, which is entirely feasible in the timeframe, if people want it to be.
The United Nations pretended that Taiwan (a tiny island of 15m people) was China for 26 years. China had a population over 500 times that during the period.
The EU could easily pretend that Scotland is the UK.
I was curious at the end about the threat that all the young Brits were so horrified at the idea of leaving the EU that loads of them were going to emigrate in protest.
Emigrating takes even more time and energy than voting - you can't even go out and get it done while you go the hairdressers or shops, it takes that much effort.
Seem to recall young people making similar threats when Cameron was first election and I wonder if there was any statistically significant blip in the 18-25 emigration figures.
Young Londoners of my acquaintance seem to be having some sort of collective nervous breakdown - perhaps a few might just bugger off because they just can't take living in the same country as a warehouse stacker in Wisbech anymore. But I think that will prove a step too far. In the meantime, there seem to be about a hundred people a second signing The Petition, which takes rather less effort. Will easily be 3 million come Sunday morning.
If you can't be arsed to spend 1 minute filling in a postal vote, there is bugger all chance of you going through the long and tedious process to emigrate. Also in order to meet the criteria you probably have had to be pretty damn motivated through most of your life to gain the skills and / or qualifications to requirements...
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
What total cobblers. When you've had one vote - then re-run it again, it changes opinions because those who didn't bother stick their oar in knowing what the result was. And those who are pissed off at being asked again.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
We, as in everyone in UK, should worry why young people don't vote. Where does that leave democracy in twenty years time?
With a great concern. They have to feel their vote counts, means something but when only 35% bother and then the younger people complain?
Perhaps it needs to be taught in schools I don't know it's not my area but it is good to see young people on this site like EPG expressing their opinions. It's a start perhaps and keeps us older ones focuses on what the young people feel.
To state the bleeding obvious, the ones that voted should not be criticised.
What do you mean, enough of this nonsense? It's much more nonsensical of the EU to pretend that Scotland is really the UK and nothing has changed then to agree to Scotland's accession in its own right, which is entirely feasible in the timeframe, if people want it to be.
The United Nations pretended that Taiwan (a tiny island of 15m people) was China for 26 years. China had a population over 500 times that during the period.
The EU could easily pretend that Scotland is the UK.
Surely that was because ROC was an ally of the US, whereas POC was communist.
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. But he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders? Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneuvered and check-mated. If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act. The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice. When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
I've seen numerous people saying on here that the fundamental problems remain for Scottish independence. That may be true, but it's irrelevant.
Project Fear has just failed (as a campaigning tool). The Scots won't be swayed by any unionist warnings on the economy.
They have the simpler, better message, like Leave did. Hell, they could probably just reuse the slogan - Take Control! The equivalent of leave's immigration push will be to stir up anti-english sentiment via 'dogwhistle' tactics. "Do you really want to chain yourselves to those racist english?"
The establishment in westminster will be preoccupied with brexit negotiations. In Scotland, scottish newspapers already showing warming to independence. Only Ruth Davidson is likely to explicitly reject independence, and even then I doubt she will campaign hard for it (she has to say no because of the Holyrood campaign). Labour and Lib Dems neutral or supportive.
People saying the EU won't be supportive of SNP efforts - but if the UK continues to do nothing, not triggering article 50 etc, the EU could very well decide a plan separately with scotland. Spain is the only real threat, and they are so caught up in their own problems I doubt Scotland is first thing on their minds.
Polls saying 59% support independence. Others here saying they expected more - maybe so but considering how Leave turned it around, that's a good starting point.
Sturgeon can do this, win independence, but she needs to move quickly, seize the moment.
To clarify, I'm english so this isn't my fight, but the writing's on the wall.
need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
Selective quoting of Gove there. He said:
"Our shared mission is clear: securing the best possible terms for Britain and, of course, informal discussions should proceed our formal negotiations."
Implying article 50 would be invoked.
And also, "on and on", really? He mentioned it once.
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
What total cobblers. When you've had one vote - then re-run it again, it changes opinions because those who didn't bother stick their oar in knowing what the result was. And those who are pissed off at being asked again.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
I've seen numerous people saying on here that the fundamental problems remain for Scottish independence. That may be true, but it's irrelevant.
Project Fear has just failed (as a campaigning tool). The Scots won't be swayed by any unionist warnings on the economy.
They have the simpler, better message, like Leave did. Hell, they could probably just reuse the slogan - Take Control! The equivalent of leave's immigration push will be to stir up anti-english sentiment via 'dogwhistle' tactics. "Do you really want to chain yourselves to those racist english?"
The establishment in westminster will be preoccupied with brexit negotiations. In Scotland, scottish newspapers already showing warming to independence. Only Ruth Davidson is likely to explicitly reject independence, and even then I doubt she will campaign hard for it (she has to say no because of the Holyrood campaign). Labour and Lib Dems neutral or supportive.
People saying the EU won't be supportive of SNP efforts - but if the UK continues to do nothing, not triggering article 50 etc, the EU could very well decide a plan separately with scotland. Spain is the only real threat, and they are so caught up in their own problems I doubt Scotland is first thing on their minds.
Polls saying 59% support independence. Others here saying they expected more - maybe so but considering how Leave turned it around, that's a good starting point.
Sturgeon can do this, win independence, but she needs to move quickly, seize the moment.
To clarify, I'm english so this isn't my fight, but the writing's on the wall.
It has to be a positive campaign: that being allied to England and Wales is a better option than being allied to Brussels. As you say negative stuff won't work anymore.
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
ALL the Millennials I know are just doing a great big shrug and saying Meh, life will go on. It's the 40 and 50 somethings who are weeping, or exulting.
Most unexpected.
Is it because we are wiser and see the great importance of these events, or do the young have a natural ability to discern the triviality of politics - in an age when technology can change lives in a a second?
Hmm. My mate's daughters (millennials) are hopping mad. The quote was: "our economic futures have been stolen by a plague of miserable racist pensioners".
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
We, as in everyone in UK, should worry why young people don't vote. Where does that leave democracy in twenty years time?
With a great concern. They have to feel their vote counts, means something but when only 35% bother and then the younger people complain?
Perhaps it needs to be taught in schools I don't know it's not my area but it is good to see young people on this site like EPG expressing their opinions. It's a start perhaps and keeps us older ones focuses on what the young people feel.
To state the bleeding obvious, the ones that voted should not be criticised.
The first thing mentioned was that the EU law specified Shall and it may be interpreted as Will.
This was established in Scots Law by RBS vs Wilson where the High Court ruled that the term "Shall" means "Will". So the delay in triggering Article 50 may be illegal and enforced by the EU.
You've said it many times on here and therefore smeared me by association. And we've seen from a large post vote poll that they didn't bother to turn out.
I'm surprised given your time on PB that data isn't important to your position. You rubbished the Ashcroft stuff because it didn't fit your personal narrative. You didn't even bother to read it.
We all have a position on how best to solve issues - ignoring what's inconvenient isn't a killer argument here.
I didn't say you were a racist. Don't say I did and engage with what people actually write. I rubbish Ashcroft because people tell him things that aren't true. I read his report but I put massive error bars around all his findings after losing money on his wrong impressions in the past. One finding across many polls and not just Ashcroft was that most 25-34 year olds voted, so stop assuming they did not. I make lots of money by betting on outcomes I don't like, most recently Donald Trump to win the nomination (I didn't put money on EU ref and went to bed during the big action). I like data but I don't trust methodologies that report 30 Lib Dems at GE 2015.
Oh even more delusional cobblers. This isn't an opinion poll - its gather immediate post voting data.
You full well know the difference. And you don't like it.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
Good to hear you had a good evening out with @Alastairmeeks
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
What total cobblers. When you've had one vote - then re-run it again, it changes opinions because those who didn't bother stick their oar in knowing what the result was. And those who are pissed off at being asked again.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
The reason Mark Oaten won the by-election was because Richard Huggett stood as a Literal Democrat and fooled many people into voting for him and consequently Oaten won the first election by just two votes. In the second by-election, people were wise to the fact that they had been fooled and gave Oaten a massive majority. Many Brexiters now know they were fooled in the referendum and won't be fooled again.
The first thing mentioned was that the EU law specified Shall and it may be interpreted as Will.
This was established in Scots Law by RBS vs Wilson where the High Court ruled that the term "Shall" means "Will". So the delay in triggering Article 50 may be illegal and enforced by the EU.
How? HMG hasn't formally decided to leave yet. They have just held a consultive referendum which does not constitute an article 50 declaration.
The first thing mentioned was that the EU law specified Shall and it may be interpreted as Will.
This was established in Scots Law by RBS vs Wilson where the High Court ruled that the term "Shall" means "Will". So the delay in triggering Article 50 may be illegal and enforced by the EU.
How? HMG hasn't formally decided to leave yet. They have just held a consultive referendum which does not constitute an article 50 declaration.
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
ALL the Millennials I know are just doing a great big shrug and saying Meh, life will go on. It's the 40 and 50 somethings who are weeping, or exulting.
Most unexpected.
Is it because we are wiser and see the great importance of these events, or do the young have a natural ability to discern the triviality of politics - in an age when technology can change lives in a a second?
Hmm. My mate's daughters (millennials) are hopping mad. The quote was: "our economic futures have been stolen by a plague of miserable racist pensioners".
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
What total cobblers. When you've had one vote - then re-run it again, it changes opinions because those who didn't bother stick their oar in knowing what the result was. And those who are pissed off at being asked again.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
The reason Mark Oaten won the by-election was because Richard Huggett stood as a Literal Democrat and fooled many people into voting for him and consequently Oaten won the first election by just two votes. In the second by-election, people were wise to the fact that they had been fooled and gave Oaten a massive majority. Many Brexiters now know they were fooled in the referendum and won't be fooled again.
Er, Huggett got 640 votes at the GE. Oaten's majority in the re-run was 21,566
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
ALL the Millennials I know are just doing a great big shrug and saying Meh, life will go on. It's the 40 and 50 somethings who are weeping, or exulting.
Most unexpected.
Is it because we are wiser and see the great importance of these events, or do the young have a natural ability to discern the triviality of politics - in an age when technology can change lives in a a second?
Hmm. My mate's daughters (millennials) are hopping mad. The quote was: "our economic futures have been stolen by a plague of miserable racist pensioners".
Fox jr feels the same, and he voted so has every right to complain.
His generation are going to have a different attitude to the elderly than my own. This is only part of it, baby boomers have feathered their own nests very nicely and expect the young to pay for their lifestyle, while loading his generation with debts.
I am more philosophical, I am used to seeing the country make crap decisions in elections. Life goes on.
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
ALL the Millennials I know are just doing a great big shrug and saying Meh, life will go on. It's the 40 and 50 somethings who are weeping, or exulting.
Most unexpected.
Is it because we are wiser and see the great importance of these events, or do the young have a natural ability to discern the triviality of politics - in an age when technology can change lives in a a second?
Hmm. My mate's daughters (millennials) are hopping mad. The quote was: "our economic futures have been stolen by a plague of miserable racist pensioners".
You may have misheard. it was actually:
"our economic futures have been stolen by people like my dad's mate who's a miserable racist rottenborough ."
What do you mean, enough of this nonsense? It's much more nonsensical of the EU to pretend that Scotland is really the UK and nothing has changed then to agree to Scotland's accession in its own right, which is entirely feasible in the timeframe, if people want it to be.
The United Nations pretended that Taiwan (a tiny island of 15m people) was China for 26 years. China had a population over 500 times that during the period.
The EU could easily pretend that Scotland is the UK.
Surely that was because ROC was an ally of the US, whereas POC was communist.
That's part of the point, RoC could not be Veto'd by the Security Council. It had to be a majority vote of the UN General Assembly. This took till 1971 when the General Assembly removed RoC as "China" and RoC could not Veto it.
One lesson the entire world should be learning right now is that significant, irreversible change probably shouldn't be decided through a one-off referendum with absolutely no qualification conditions attached.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
What total cobblers. When you've had one vote - then re-run it again, it changes opinions because those who didn't bother stick their oar in knowing what the result was. And those who are pissed off at being asked again.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
The reason Mark Oaten won the by-election was because Richard Huggett stood as a Literal Democrat and fooled many people into voting for him and consequently Oaten won the first election by just two votes. In the second by-election, people were wise to the fact that they had been fooled and gave Oaten a massive majority. Many Brexiters now know they were fooled in the referendum and won't be fooled again.
Do you want me to gauge the pulse of the Brexit heartlands if we rerun the referendum ?
A Mail on Sunday poll showed seven per cent of those who voted Leave, equal to more than one million people, now regret having done so. Four per cent of Remain voters also regretted their decision
If Scotland quits the UK she is immediately bankrupt. And there's an end to it.
Which is bankrupt, Scotland or the UK?
I've just spent the evening with old friends in Soho.
It was quite an amazing juxtaposition. Me and my pals are all grizzled old fucks - a bunch of men and women aged 45-55. We go back yonks. We reminisce.
We went from the Coach and Horses to the Groucho to some weird French bar. A lot of our time - when we weren't talking about sex (mainly wistfully), drugs (regretfully) or football (critically) was spent talking about the VOTE.
One of us, a Bremainer, was in total despair. Thought it heralded the end of days. He was - is - a very smart lawyer. The rest - even the lefties - were oddly neutral. For them it was good and bad, London property was madly overpriced, a reduction would be good, shame about Scotland but who cares really.
In the end it was just me and the despairing Bremainer who really cared, and in the end we got drunk and stopped caring.
And outside London Pride weekend went on, people of all races, ages and genders basically copulating in the streets. A true bacchanal.
I couldn't work out whether this meant England, Britain, London - will endure, as it always has - or whether this was a final decadent free for all, like Paris just before the Blitzkrieg.
I didn't know you hung out with Mr Meeks on weekends ;-)
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
ALL the Millennials I know are just doing a great big shrug and saying Meh, life will go on. It's the 40 and 50 somethings who are weeping, or exulting.
Most unexpected.
Is it because we are wiser and see the great importance of these events, or do the young have a natural ability to discern the triviality of politics - in an age when technology can change lives in a a second?
Hmm. My mate's daughters (millennials) are hopping mad. The quote was: "our economic futures have been stolen by a plague of miserable racist pensioners".
Sure, there is a minority who are hopping mad, but most Remain voters seem to be either apathetic or in some cases are now happy about the result, getting caught up in the excitement and wanting to believe things are going to change for the better.
The polling was pretty clear in the run-up that most Remain voters were unenthusiastic.
Comments
I suspect that an exception could be made.
Ok this is not a particularly positive predecessor, but it blazed the trail:
Blair did it with NO prior ministerial experience. Simply a winning look, TV friendly and, of course, his party need to change to accomodate disaster.
Watch Raab demolish the greeny lucas. Maybe he is ready
"This isn't a score like a football match where the score stands"
Sorry but I think you will find it very much is. Actually your reaction does not surprise me. You do realise 52% is a majority and it was by BBC figures 52.9 %.
Your position is a replica of the arrogance regarding democracy that the EU consistently shows. It wasn't immigration that ever got near my thoughts as I have consistently said I like it and we need it but controlled. What made we vote leave is your own and the EU's attitude to the democratic process when it is exercised by the people.
It's why you lost. It's over so get over it.
PS
precise figure please for your claim that " some of the people" keep in mind you will need to get to at least a million plus before the outcome is in any way under threat. Even then it's not because they made their mark.
http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/politics_and_society/2016/06/25/brexit_is_good_news_says_president_of_iceland/
"The Daily Hate" is of course an adaption of its former proprietor's expressed wish to give the public their daily hate There is no more a secret EU report on Scotland than there was a real Zinoviev letter, which is why the Mail used to be called The Forgers' Gazette!
The trouble is that the BBC actually discuss this rubbish as if it were anything more than the Mail's wet dreams. There is no Commission ruling on Scotland because they will only decide on specific cases after a formal approach. That will not happen until after talks with Sturgeon.
In any case the Council of Ministers will determine this. It is unlikely that Spain will find this a problem precedent given that it has been provoked by a state withdrawal. There is little chance of Spain following suit to allow Catelonia to use this as a precedent.
On the side of an accomodation with Scotland is that it provides the best possible answer to those who believe that Brexit will break up the EU. They would simply reply that Brexit has broken up Britain.
Was it John Major who said: "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate..."?
Bollox of course. But they still said it.
All the Project Fear stuff is completely worthless now. It's much of the reason why there will be no pull back from the 65% Yes in Scotland currently polled.
Anyway, the Brexiteers wanted OUT so badly. Why the reluctance to invoke Article 50 ? Frit ?
The Scottish local council government can do many things, but fuck around with things like this it can't.
As for Scotland as a continuing EU member state, that's a joke. It would have to apply for membership. Sturgeon is just wasting public money. She also gets right up my nose.
"The first minister has disclosed that she is to invite all EU diplomats based in Scotland to a summit at her official residence in Edinburgh"
Since the British government has not yet invoked Article 50, surely it would be a major breach of protocol for them to accept her invitation unless it's okayed by the Foreign Office?
Consistently I have said on here this forum for months that if it is 50% + one person ** then that is the will of the people. I also stated many times that if that happens to favour the remain side then we embrace it 100% , we join Schengen and I said we even go as far as adopt the Euro.
Simply because I believe in the democratic vote and the will of the people. Sadly Remainers don't.
** they have to be arsed to vote of course.
He looks a bit too young for high office for me. And I'm not even 50. Cameron managed it - can Raab?
https://twitter.com/DavidJo52951945/status/746760935751180288
Sexit (2025)...
https://twitter.com/AidanKerrPol/status/746828800151949312
Perhaps it needs to be taught in schools I don't know it's not my area but it is good to see young people on this site like EPG expressing their opinions. It's a start perhaps and keeps us older ones focuses on what the young people feel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36618907
The suspicion is that any attempt to re-run the EU referendum would be electoral poison, but any party has the perfect right to try it if they wish. Technically i suppose they wouldn't even need to re-run the referendum, they could just run on a platform of ignoring the outcome.
It is then up to all other countries and treaty organisations to recognise (of their own volition) what is the continuing state (if any) and what are the successor states (if any).
If it so choose, any country or treaty organisation could reset the successor countries back to 1707.
I'm surprised given your time on PB that data isn't important to your position. You rubbished the Ashcroft stuff because it didn't fit your personal narrative. You didn't even bother to read it.
We all have a position on how best to solve issues - ignoring what's inconvenient isn't a killer argument here.
British operational nukes are all carried on subs, though.
Scottish nationalists sound like such petulant children sometimes. "Continuator state" indeed! Next they'll want sovereignty over London. I think Farron has said the LibDems will stand on a platform of taking Britain back into the EU without a referendum. And if they get a majority and form a government, they will have mandate to do what they say.
If a re-run were to be held next Thursday there's every chance the result would be different. And that makes a mockery of the original result. Essentially it's so close that it comes down to luck. Weather, disingenuous tactical voting, and other trivial factors can tip the result one way or another, and it's preposterous that this can decide something with a long-lasting impact that is fundamentally irreversible.
This would be equally true in the event of a narrow Remain win. Ideally for change to be enacted, you need to be looking at at least a 60-40 majority to pass - something solid enough that it couldn't swing the other way with a few factors of happenstance turning out differently.
Hate to think if the entire population turned out and voted one way while you overslept. Arguments would go on for years
I was joking on my expected over reaction at a major uni I was visiting on Friday. In reality, there was of course grumbling, but surprisingly it didn't seem much more than that and was business as usual. Egg heads being egg heads.
There was no talking people down off the roofs or EU academics chaining themselves to their desks in protest.
coughcoughGaryNumancoughcough
You?
I prefer democracy.
If the UN General Assembly had voted No to Russia as the continuing state of the USSR then it would not have gotten the Security Council seat (and we would probably have ended up at war with Russia).
The UK is not Russia, it is a tiny island at the edge of Europe without enough Nuclear Arms to destory any country larger than Italy. It is also a subservient country of NATO and on the leash of the United States. There is no compelling reason for the UN (whose majority heavily favour Security Council reform) to grant a seat to England and Wales following the dissolution of the United Kingdom.
At heart it is a fantasy to suggest that England and Wales would inherit the UN Security Council seat of the UK. It will not happen. It cannot happen.
The new false narrative on the basis of a handful of people in a voxpop saying not sure I would vote the same way, or I would have voted but didn't, somehow a million+ people would vote differently and we would vote to Remain if the vote was held on Thursday.
Emigrating takes even more time and energy than voting - you can't even go out and get it done while you go the hairdressers or shops, it takes that much effort.
Seem to recall young people making similar threats when Cameron was first election and I wonder if there was any statistically significant blip in the 18-25 emigration figures.
Young Londoners of my acquaintance seem to be having some sort of collective nervous breakdown - perhaps a few might just bugger off because they just can't take living in the same country as a warehouse stacker in Wisbech anymore. But I think that will prove a step too far. In the meantime, there seem to be about a hundred people a second signing The Petition, which takes rather less effort. Will easily be 3 million come Sunday morning.
The EU could easily pretend that Scotland is the UK.
When this was tried in Winchester - it ended in tears.
The 1997 Winchester by-election was a by-election to the UK House of Commons in the constituency of Winchester, Hampshire.
After an unclear (and extremely close) result in Winchester at the general election on 1 May 1997, a new election was allowed by the High Court.
The by-election, held on 20 November, was won by Mark Oaten (Liberal Democrat) with a majority of 21,556.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_by-election,_1997
Worth showing that comment:
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. But he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneuvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
Project Fear has just failed (as a campaigning tool). The Scots won't be swayed by any unionist warnings on the economy.
They have the simpler, better message, like Leave did. Hell, they could probably just reuse the slogan - Take Control! The equivalent of leave's immigration push will be to stir up anti-english sentiment via 'dogwhistle' tactics. "Do you really want to chain yourselves to those racist english?"
The establishment in westminster will be preoccupied with brexit negotiations. In Scotland, scottish newspapers already showing warming to independence. Only Ruth Davidson is likely to explicitly reject independence, and even then I doubt she will campaign hard for it (she has to say no because of the Holyrood campaign). Labour and Lib Dems neutral or supportive.
People saying the EU won't be supportive of SNP efforts - but if the UK continues to do nothing, not triggering article 50 etc, the EU could very well decide a plan separately with scotland. Spain is the only real threat, and they are so caught up in their own problems I doubt Scotland is first thing on their minds.
Polls saying 59% support independence. Others here saying they expected more - maybe so but considering how Leave turned it around, that's a good starting point.
Sturgeon can do this, win independence, but she needs to move quickly, seize the moment.
To clarify, I'm english so this isn't my fight, but the writing's on the wall.
"Our shared mission is clear: securing the best possible terms for Britain and, of course, informal discussions should proceed our formal negotiations."
Implying article 50 would be invoked.
And also, "on and on", really? He mentioned it once.
The first thing mentioned was that the EU law specified Shall and it may be interpreted as Will.
This was established in Scots Law by RBS vs Wilson where the High Court ruled that the term "Shall" means "Will". So the delay in triggering Article 50 may be illegal and enforced by the EU.
You full well know the difference. And you don't like it.
You'll have to do a great deal better than that.
His generation are going to have a different attitude to the elderly than my own. This is only part of it, baby boomers have feathered their own nests very nicely and expect the young to pay for their lifestyle, while loading his generation with debts.
I am more philosophical, I am used to seeing the country make crap decisions in elections. Life goes on.
"our economic futures have been stolen by people like my dad's mate who's a miserable racist rottenborough ."
Just sayin'..
A Mail on Sunday poll showed seven per cent of those who voted Leave, equal to more than one million people, now regret having done so. Four per cent of Remain voters also regretted their decision
The polling was pretty clear in the run-up that most Remain voters were unenthusiastic.