This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what deal Britain will strike with the EU, right now the British incentive would be to include as many goodies for scotland in any deal as possible and hope for the scots to approve it. If the SNP tries to rush things then the incentive reverses, Britain will try to make a deal that is as worse as possible for scotland.
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
This is some amazingly 2014 thinking.
Dazzle me. Is Scotland a state? Do other EU member states not have secessionist problems of their own?
Does the EU have too much free time on its hands and a desire to faff about with pointless meeting or, does it perhaps have serious, difficult problems to deal with already, without inventing new problems for itself?
The 'PB Brexiteers are strongest opponents of Scottish Indy' maxim holds true once again.
I still haven't heard someone put a serious argument as to why the EU would be giving a particular priority to keeping Scotland in, except if it helped in their future relationship with the rUK.
Indeed a country like Spain might be reluctant to help Scotland when it would only make things easier for Catalonia if they came independent and there was already a precedent on what to do if a smaller state breaks away from a current member state. I'm guessing that they would prefer to wait until Brexit is complete before dealing with any application from Scotland.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Cgsters signing the petition for a second referendum failed to actually vote in the first?
Utter scorn is too good for them.
18-24yr 36% TO
Says it all really.
Even 25-34yrs was only 53% TO
You have to be in it to win it.
Many of us oldsters have signed the petition. It isn't over yet. The referendum was only advisory and the result was very close. We are a representative democracy. MPs need to step up and veto this. Boris might be relieved.
Pfft
What a desperate fellow you are. More eligible voters said Leave than in any election since universal suffrage.
And you cite a made up petition packed with MickeyMouse@VaticanCity.com as a valid comparison?
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
England doesnt get to choose. A country's position as the continuing state is entirely at the decision of other countries. What's more, the EU can make the decision at ministerial level on QMV as it does not require treaty change and a Veto option.
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Oh God, that's another party I can't vote for then. Shame as I have often voted Liberal in the past! But attempting to reopen old wounds when the people have spoken, just doesn't seem very democratic to me. Particularly if (as Ashcroft reckons) about 1 in 3 LibDem voters voted Leave! Might bag him a few votes in some areas, I suppose, but for me it renders him completely beyond the pale.
It is essential that the Liberals carry on arguing for the EU. Apart from anything else it gives the electorate the chance to vote for that option (48% wanted to stay). Labour may come out all guns blazing in favour or they may decide that they have to listen to their working class base and stop arguing for it.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Oh God, that's another party I can't vote for then. Shame as I have often voted Liberal in the past! But attempting to reopen old wounds when the people have spoken, just doesn't seem very democratic to me. Particularly if (as Ashcroft reckons) about 1 in 3 LibDem voters voted Leave! Might bag him a few votes in some areas, I suppose, but for me it renders him completely beyond the pale.
It is essential that the Liberals carry on arguing for the EU. Apart from anything else it gives the electorate the chance to vote for that option (48% wanted to stay). Labour may come out all guns blazing in favour or they may decide that they have to listen to their working class base and stop arguing for it.
Logically, electorally, it's entirely rational.
But it is not a lot of good for people who have much in common with the Lib Dems but don't like the EU and don't think a continual rerun of the EU referendum is helpful for democracy - which seems to be about 30% of Lib Dem voters.
Think there will be lots of people in the New Politics who find themselves without a natural party home!
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
Thanks for answering. My constituency is Bognor and Littlehampton which was much stronger for Leave. I was quite struck by the difference between us and Eastbourne and Worthing as well. I suppose traditionally we're more down market than you. Although if Eastbourne is anything like Worthing it'll have seen better days!
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
Well I had written a thread featuring AV* in the morning, but it turned into a right hatchet job on Boris, but I've had to pull it, as I was shocked by my own vituperativeness at Boris.
Contained the line 'like the many mistresses of Boris, should you be laying him?'
*The quasi-AV voting system the Tories use to elect their leads.
It's not AV - it's actually Exhaustive Ballot. You only get to cast one vote per round!
Repeat after me: E X H A U S T I V E . B A L L O T.
I wonder how many of the outraged bien pensants signing that stupid petition calling for another referendum with out required to get 60%-40% victory on a 150% turnout or something were foaming at the mouth not a year ago with outrage when the Tories proposed similar changes to the rules on Strike Ballots?
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
First and foremost, they are selecting the PM. A safe pair of hands to steady the ship. A doctor's mandate...
Ok - if you think Fox could do it. His entry to the brexit campaign was nicely judged - maybe ok.
Certainly not the federast May. She's the only tory to actually SIGN BACK IN to negate one of our pitifully few EU opt outs. Dreadful anti-british pol.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
Surely that is a decision within the gift of the EU though.
It would be up to them whether or not to allow Scotland to enter but since it would be as a successor state they would be reapplying for membership rather than continuing it. This is covered by the 1978 Vienna Convention on Successor states. The issue would be that any single EU state would be able to challenge any automatic continuation of rights (rather than new entry which would require Schengen and Euro membership) and Scotland could not be sure that one or more may not do that.
Bear in mind I want Scottish Independence so I am only raising this because I see it as an issue which I hope could be dealt with.
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Oh God, that's another party I can't vote for then. Shame as I have often voted Liberal in the past! But attempting to reopen old wounds when the people have spoken, just doesn't seem very democratic to me. Particularly if (as Ashcroft reckons) about 1 in 3 LibDem voters voted Leave! Might bag him a few votes in some areas, I suppose, but for me it renders him completely beyond the pale.
It is essential that the Liberals carry on arguing for the EU. Apart from anything else it gives the electorate the chance to vote for that option (48% wanted to stay). Labour may come out all guns blazing in favour or they may decide that they have to listen to their working class base and stop arguing for it.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
He is just reflecting LibDem activists and members. Plus there own history for at least 30 years or more.
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
This is some amazingly 2014 thinking.
Dazzle me. Is Scotland a state? Do other EU member states not have secessionist problems of their own?
Does the EU have too much free time on its hands and a desire to faff about with pointless meeting or, does it perhaps have serious, difficult problems to deal with already, without inventing new problems for itself?
The 'PB Brexiteers are strongest opponents of Scottish Indy' maxim holds true once again.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
Surely that is a decision within the gift of the EU though.
Do we think the UN will offer the permanent security council seat to Scotland?
That would be a UN decision rather than an EU one.
If Scotland chose to use it to represent the EU...
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
This is some amazingly 2014 thinking.
Dazzle me. Is Scotland a state? Do other EU member states not have secessionist problems of their own?
Does the EU have too much free time on its hands and a desire to faff about with pointless meeting or, does it perhaps have serious, difficult problems to deal with already, without inventing new problems for itself?
The 'PB Brexiteers are strongest opponents of Scottish Indy' maxim holds true once again.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
Surely that is a decision within the gift of the EU though.
Do we think the UN will offer the permanent security council seat to Scotland?
That would be a UN decision rather than an EU one.
If Scotland chose to use it to represent the EU...
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
Yep probably a tad overreacting. I suppose I was reading between the lines
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
No it wouldn't. The rules on Continuator states are quite clear and the loss of less than 10% of the population would not be sufficient to cause any change in the status of the rest of the UK as a Continuator.
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Oh God, that's another party I can't vote for then. Shame as I have often voted Liberal in the past! But attempting to reopen old wounds when the people have spoken, just doesn't seem very democratic to me. Particularly if (as Ashcroft reckons) about 1 in 3 LibDem voters voted Leave! Might bag him a few votes in some areas, I suppose, but for me it renders him completely beyond the pale.
It is essential that the Liberals carry on arguing for the EU. Apart from anything else it gives the electorate the chance to vote for that option (48% wanted to stay). Labour may come out all guns blazing in favour or they may decide that they have to listen to their working class base and stop arguing for it.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
The LDs used to exist as the student's protest party, this seems a valid attempt to get the band back together.
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
England doesnt get to choose. A country's position as the continuing state is entirely at the decision of other countries. What's more, the EU can make the decision at ministerial level on QMV as it does not require treaty change and a Veto option.
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
Here is a hint.
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
First and foremost, they are selecting the PM. A safe pair of hands to steady the ship. A doctor's mandate...
Ok - if you think Fox could do it. His entry to the brexit campaign was nicely judged - maybe ok.
Certainly not the federast May. She's the only tory to actually SIGN BACK IN to negate one of our pitifully few EU opt outs. Dreadful anti-british pol.
While I appreciate that a lot of PBers are speculating about a Dr Fox run, I would just like to point out that I have other commitments.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
Yep probably a tad overreacting. I suppose I was reading between the lines
Forgive me for being sensitive. I am a young person and I don't like being told to shut up because of what other people do. That is, to me, a form of collective punishment by ungracious victors.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
It's not even to stay in the EU, it's to join from scratch with all that entails. There may be a significant minority of Remainers (but not enough to keep us in), but how many are all in? Maybe 10-15%?
Fox is certainly capable of being a dangerous candidate in a Con leadership election.
For starters he would have been in the Final 2 last time if Cameron hadn't got a group of his supporters to vote Davis to get Davis into the Final ahead of Fox.
But that was 11 years ago - would Fox have as much support amongst the 2010 and 2015 intakes - who I think comprise approx 50% of Con MPs?
Finally his views on abortion are surely going to worry a lot of people - and the 2010 and 2015 intakes will be younger and thus probably likely to be more liberal on this subject.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
Yep probably a tad overreacting. I suppose I was reading between the lines
Forgive me for being sensitive. I am a young person and I don't like being told to shut up because of what other people do. That is, to me, a form of collective punishment by ungracious victors.
But I think that the whole "old suppressing the young" is just stupid, given the figures. The media give it far too much prominence, when they should instead be focussing on the absolutely abysmal turnout.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
I was surprised by Eastbourne voting Leave so heavily. Maybe Caroline Ansell's late decision made a difference with some voters.
We had a Brexit public debate and 1600 turned up - totally packed out.
I was a trifle taken aback too. Mrs Ansell decided it was wise to back Leave a couple of days later. Her maj is teeny.
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
First and foremost, they are selecting the PM. A safe pair of hands to steady the ship. A doctor's mandate...
Ok - if you think Fox could do it. His entry to the brexit campaign was nicely judged - maybe ok.
Certainly not the federast May. She's the only tory to actually SIGN BACK IN to negate one of our pitifully few EU opt outs. Dreadful anti-british pol.
While I appreciate that a lot of PBers are speculating about a Dr Fox run, I would just like to point out that I have other commitments.
Surely that is a decision within the gift of the EU though.
It would be up to them whether or not to allow Scotland to enter but since it would be as a successor state they would be reapplying for membership rather than continuing it. This is covered by the 1978 Vienna Convention on Successor states. The issue would be that any single EU state would be able to challenge any automatic continuation of rights (rather than new entry which would require Schengen and Euro membership) and Scotland could not be sure that one or more may not do that.
Bear in mind I want Scottish Independence so I am only raising this because I see it as an issue which I hope could be dealt with.
The Vienna Convention is not based on the size of the entity. You do not automatically become a continuing state by being the largest part of the former state.
The only decision made over what is or is not a continuing state is by other countries and treaty organisations as to whether they recognise the status of countries as continuing states. Russia had to get agreement from every other CIS state that it was the continuing state. Likely down the barrel of a gun.
Is England and Wales going to put Scotland down the barrel of a gun and get Nicola to sign a letter agreeing to this? Or is it going to be negotiated? I know where my money is.
But even then, just having agreement from Scotland is not enough, it is still up to all other countries and treaty organisations how they view England and Wales and a lot would be very incentivised to consider England and Wales as a successor state. Especially those who want UN reform.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 1h1 hour ago In Tory leadership contests there's one lesson from history - front runner fails almost always fails. Davis, Portillo, Howard, Heseltine...
Fair point, but the trouble with lessons from history is that they have been failing in recent months. History told us Corbyn wouldn't have a prayer. History told us Trump wouldn't get past Iowa. History told us Project Fear would smash it for Remain.
Yes sir! And OGH was almost completely sure ( though not 100% ) that the main group of pollsters had got it right this time. Oh,oohhhhh; Populus!
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
What was 18-24 turnout at the Scottish Indy referendum?
More precisely, according to ICM’s survey, 75% of 16 and 17 year olds voted, compared with 54% of 18-24 year olds and 72% of 25-34 year olds. The turnout in all three groups is markedly lower than the estimate for 35-54 year olds (85%) and those aged 55 and over (92%).
But I think that the whole "old suppressing the young" is just stupid, given the figures. The media give it far too much prominence, when they should instead be focussing on the absolutely abysmal turnout.
From the point of view of an individual young person who voted, it is a meme that makes sense. Not as a blame allocation mechanism, but merely as a fact: old people chose a future that young people resiled from. What was the turnout like at other elections? Let's be careful with the tiny, volatile 18-24 category of people who move house all the time.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
It's not even to stay in the EU, it's to join from scratch with all that entails. There may be a significant minority of Remainers (but not enough to keep us in), but how many are all in? Maybe 10-15%?
A lot depends on how things work out in the period before a GE. If we have not left then it is possible to inactivate Brexit, validated by a second referendum.
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
England doesnt get to choose. A country's position as the continuing state is entirely at the decision of other countries. What's more, the EU can make the decision at ministerial level on QMV as it does not require treaty change and a Veto option.
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
Here is a hint.
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
The one with aircraft carriers that won't be able to sink a pedalo for years and the subs based in Scotland? Good hint.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
No it wouldn't. The rules on Continuator states are quite clear and the loss of less than 10% of the population would not be sufficient to cause any change in the status of the rest of the UK as a Continuator.
Yes it would on a simple majority vote of the UN without a Security Council Veto. This is set out and known. It was admitted by the UK government legal opinion on Indyref 1 and was never formally addressed by that opinion, it just said "hey, we would be fine". It was nonsense then and nonsense now.
Population share does not determine continuation or succession.
Let's be careful with the tiny, volatile 18-24 category of people who move house all the time.
Which would only lead to an even worse turnout figure, if all those eligible to vote but not registered were included.
I'm thinking of those who register at uni for GE, but then have to register at home for the referendum. EDIT: plus those on year-long leases in flats who move around too.
@romillyweeks: Cornwall now asking for guarantees it won't lose the equivalent of millions of £s of European funding. That's the Cornwall that voted out.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
........
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
Thanks for answering. My constituency is Bognor and Littlehampton which was much stronger for Leave. I was quite struck by the difference between us and Eastbourne and Worthing as well. I suppose traditionally we're more down market than you. Although if Eastbourne is anything like Worthing it'll have seen better days!
I think Eastbourne is on the way up these days unlike a number of other south coast resorts.
Anybody fancy David Miliband to stand in Batley and Spen then challenge for the leadership?
If there are people in the Labour Party who still think David Miliband is the answer the party is in even more trouble than I thought.
The Labour party has two fundamental problems:
a) A leader who is "dismal, spineless, useless", to quote Toynbee.
b) A disconnect with some (half/more than half??) of its base who value "flag and family" over economic and technocratic solutions that sound good in think tanks and may even be good on the ground (e.g. SureStart).
At least David 'Prince over the Water' M would solve the first and is bright enough to be able to think about the 2nd.
But realistically, his moment has passed. Then again, as three impossible things happen before breakfast in politics at the moment -- he's back!
Surely that is a decision within the gift of the EU though.
It would be up to them whether or not to allow Scotland to enter but since it would be as a successor state they would be reapplying for membership rather than continuing it. This is covered by the 1978 Vienna Convention on Successor states. The issue would be that any single EU state would be able to challenge any automatic continuation of rights (rather than new entry which would require Schengen and Euro membership) and Scotland could not be sure that one or more may not do that.
Bear in mind I want Scottish Independence so I am only raising this because I see it as an issue which I hope could be dealt with.
The Vienna Convention is not based on the size of the entity. You do not automatically become a continuing state by being the largest part of the former state.
The only decision made over what is or is not a continuing state is by other countries and treaty organisations as to whether they recognise the status of countries as continuing states. Russia had to get agreement from every other CIS state that it was the continuing state. Likely down the barrel of a gun.
Is England and Wales going to put Scotland down the barrel of a gun and get Nicola to sign a letter agreeing to this? Or is it going to be negotiated? I know where my money is.
But even then, just having agreement from Scotland is not enough, it is still up to all other countries and treaty organisations how they view England and Wales and a lot would be very incentivised to consider England and Wales as a successor state. Especially those who want UN reform.
Interesting diversion but doesn't really make sense does it? The implication would be that theoretically, had Scotland voted for Independence in 2014, then all the other countries could have collectively decided to chuck the UK out whilst keeping Scotland in. I don't see how a seceding state can be treated as a continuation state.
It's different where a country mutually splits (eg. Czechoslovakia etc)
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
England doesnt get to choose. A country's position as the continuing state is entirely at the decision of other countries. What's more, the EU can make the decision at ministerial level on QMV as it does not require treaty change and a Veto option.
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
Here is a hint.
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
Let's be careful with the tiny, volatile 18-24 category of people who move house all the time.
Which would only lead to an even worse turnout figure, if all those eligible to vote but not registered were included.
I'm thinking of those who register at uni for GE, but then have to register at home for the referendum. EDIT: plus those on year-long leases in flats who move around too.
I have very little sympathy for them, especially as registration now takes 5 minutes on a computer. You can even do it on your phone!
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
What was 18-24 turnout at the Scottish Indy referendum?
More precisely, according to ICM’s survey, 75% of 16 and 17 year olds voted, compared with 54% of 18-24 year olds and 72% of 25-34 year olds. The turnout in all three groups is markedly lower than the estimate for 35-54 year olds (85%) and those aged 55 and over (92%).
Not whilst England still exists as a Continuator state. It would be the same as the Pakistan/Bangladesh situation where Pakistan was considered the Continuator State and Bangladesh the Successor state which had to reapply for membership of things like the UN.
The creation of two successor states with no continuator state usually only happens when the two new states are of similar nature in size/population etc and no one claims the rights of the Continuator.
England doesnt get to choose. A country's position as the continuing state is entirely at the decision of other countries. What's more, the EU can make the decision at ministerial level on QMV as it does not require treaty change and a Veto option.
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
Here is a hint.
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
........
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
Thanks for answering. My constituency is Bognor and Littlehampton which was much stronger for Leave. I was quite struck by the difference between us and Eastbourne and Worthing as well. I suppose traditionally we're more down market than you. Although if Eastbourne is anything like Worthing it'll have seen better days!
I think Eastbourne is on the way up these days unlike a number of other south coast resorts.
I visited for the first time in 25 years back in the spring and it seemed really nice. Station was pretty impressive too
@romillyweeks: Cornwall now asking for guarantees it won't lose the equivalent of millions of £s of European funding. That's the Cornwall that voted out.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
We, as in everyone in UK, should worry why young people don't vote. Where does that leave democracy in twenty years time?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It is simply intolerant to tell people to shut up for other people's actions. If Ukip continued to exist and to call for a referendum after a REMAIN vote as Nigel Farage said he would, would you have described that as "intolerant"?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
If Ukip continued to exist and to call for a referendum after the vote as Nigel Farage said he would, would you have described that as "intolerant"?
I would have described that as "Farage being Farage"
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
Thanks for answering. My constituency is Bognor and Littlehampton which was much stronger for Leave. I was quite struck by the difference between us and Eastbourne and Worthing as well. I suppose traditionally we're more down market than you. Although if Eastbourne is anything like Worthing it'll have seen better days!
Hastings was 55 Leave 45 Stay. I've always felt really sorry for Hastings - crap roads, addicts and asylum seekers dumped there and too far from the commuter belt.
It wasn't too bad in 1997 when I moved down this way - and Eastbourne was lovely and gentile. I told my work colleagues there wasn't any graffiti and five hearing aid shops. It was so polite and English. Nowadays it's an enormous migrant population and very different. No wonder the locals have said No Thanks.
I spent oodles of time in Bognor. I'm very fond of it. I've a totally useless crane toy machine skill. Parents pay me to win fluffy things for their kids. I used to hand out bags of them to little ones on the piers.
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Oh God, that's another party I can't vote for then. Shame as I have often voted Liberal in the past! But attempting to reopen old wounds when the people have spoken, just doesn't seem very democratic to me. Particularly if (as Ashcroft reckons) about 1 in 3 LibDem voters voted Leave! Might bag him a few votes in some areas, I suppose, but for me it renders him completely beyond the pale.
It is essential that the Liberals carry on arguing for the EU. Apart from anything else it gives the electorate the chance to vote for that option (48% wanted to stay). Labour may come out all guns blazing in favour or they may decide that they have to listen to their working class base and stop arguing for it.
That Farron has made a policy now to rejoin the EU creates a massive hostage to fortune and demonstrates his utter lack of judgment.
Reminds me of the Irish Unionists in the south of Ireland - after independence, some of them fought on for a while, but the big decision had been made and it was clear that there was no going back. The movement vanished pretty quickly.
Perhaps not best to nail your hopes to a bird that's already flown, even for a Lib Dem.
However, if it pulls in an extra 5% of the vote it would be a huge boost, given his current position! And the Lib Dems are in an unusual position in terms of their electoral acceptability to disillusioned business-leaning but non-doctrinaire Conservative voters.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
We, as in everyone in UK, should worry why young people don't vote. Where does that leave democracy in twenty years time?
It's an old debate. The corollary of the "Tories are dying out" argument. The young never vote. Nobody is young forever. Well apart from Jeremy Corbyn.
Interesting diversion but doesn't really make sense does it? The implication would be that theoretically, had Scotland voted for Independence in 2014, then all the other countries could have collectively decided to chuck the UK out whilst keeping Scotland in. I don't see how a seceding state can be treated as a continuation state.
It's different where a country mutually splits (eg. Czechoslovakia etc)
From memory, both the Czech Republic and Slovakia agreed to be co-continuing states which was generally agreed externally, as such they inherited most of the treaty obligations of Czechoslovakia (which probably weren't many at the time) with some limited renegotiation.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
If Ukip continued to exist and to call for a referendum after the vote as Nigel Farage said he would, would you have described that as "intolerant"?
I would have described that as "Farage being Farage"
Yes I would too! I think we let him get away with things that other people would get pilloried for! I wonder sometimes how we make these judgements.
@romillyweeks: Cornwall now asking for guarantees it won't lose the equivalent of millions of £s of European funding. That's the Cornwall that voted out.
To be fair though, that's the elected reps of Cornwall (local councils and so forth) who are asking this, not individual voters. No doubt the voters will be belly aching when it has all gone.
On similar note, FT had a graph with the UK areas/regions that traded most with EU being most Leave. Go figure.
Fox? Quite a lot of dirt on him anyone can get to...
Can't see Boris getting to the final...
Surely the Tory selectorate want somebody who can actually win a GE on the current (tory hostile) boundaries?
Do you have a suggested candidate Rod, who might achieve this objective (always depending on who's running the Labour by that time)?
I've been backing Fox all evening. He's the stop-Boris candidate...
A few more votes in 2005, and he would have been in the final, and would have given Cameron a close run, perhaps won.
What is his MP following these days? This is the requirement at this stage.
Is there no other? Raab possibly?
Raab is interesting actually. He's had a good campaign and he does fit the bill quite well.
If we was coming at this from LOTO then I'd be tempted to go for him but I'm not sure he's quite high profile enough to be put in as Con leader AND Prime Minister.
If the Tories are turfed out in 2020 he's probable for LOTO, IMO.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Ireland 2008/09
lol, that wasn't by popular demand (should have caveated my original reply). That was because Brussels didn't like the first outcome.
Why do people think Scotland has to be successor state to the UK to qualify for EU membership? Scotland's name needs to be listed on the Treaty of Union, so it's a treaty change and a new accession. There is a question of whether it could keep the UK's opt outs (answer: probably a couple - most importantly the UK CTA with Ireland, but would have to join the euro and charge VAT on food). The next question is whether the EU would offer Scotland accelerated accession. This question came up during the 2014 when it was reckoned the EU probably would do so. In the special circumstances of Scotland deciding to stay in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves would make it more likely again, I believe. Scotland would aim to complete EU accession, dissolution of the united kingdom simultaneously with Brexit. Finally there is the question of whether Scotland would be prepared to reduce public spending very drastically to meet EU fiscal rules and whether the loss of the internal UK market is too high a price to pay.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Can I have some of your bitter? There seems to be plenty to go round...
The BBC would do itself a favour by not retweeting The Daily Hate without the sort of health warning that appears on cigarette packets. It should read "Warning this newspaper can bring about a recession".
There is no secret EU report on Scotland. What there is now is a number of influential figures already breaking cover to confirm meetings with Sturgeon.
And you'd do yourself a lot of good for not being juvenile about a very big selling tabloid.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Eastbourne has a large LD vote and a large migrant population. I expect both had an impact.
Remember that the average Leave vs Remain % in the SE was 52 vs 48. Eastbourne was clearly more Leave by a significant factor.
Hastings was 55 Leave 45 Stay. I've always felt really sorry for Hastings - crap roads, addicts and asylum seekers dumped there and too far from the commuter belt.
It wasn't too bad in 1997 when I moved down this way - and Eastbourne was lovely and gentile. I told my work colleagues there wasn't any graffiti and five hearing aid shops. It was so polite and English. Nowadays it's an enormous migrant population and very different. No wonder the locals have said No Thanks.
I spent oodles of time in Bognor. I'm very fond of it. I've a totally useless crane toy machine skill. Parents pay me to win fluffy things for their kids. I used to hand out bags of them to little ones on the piers.
But but but... You were telling us the Leave campaign wasn't about immigration
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would br better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Trouble is we would have activated article 50 at that point, so the referendum couldn't be "accept brexit"/"stay in EU".
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
Rather than a pure re-run, a referendum bill requiring that any Brexit deal be put to a plebiscite before it could be implemented would be better. It would take a lot of guesswork out of what Brexit actually means.
Scottish indy, and scottish application to join the EU are two different things. Scottish indy would be a pre-requisite for the scottish application to join the EU.
Unless the EU chooses to treat Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Continuing state.
Successor states do not automatically inherit treat rights. And it would be up to the EU (not the UK or rUK) whether it was continuing or successor.
So that would answer the Catalunya (sp?) issue then? They couldn't split from Spain as Spain would be the continung state? Apologies if already mentioned, too many comments to read all of them!
It would be up to the EU what the continuing state was and yes it would likely choose Spain if CatExit happened.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
No it wouldn't. The rules on Continuator states are quite clear and the loss of less than 10% of the population would not be sufficient to cause any change in the status of the rest of the UK as a Continuator.
Yes it would on a simple majority vote of the UN without a Security Council Veto. This is set out and known. It was admitted by the UK government legal opinion on Indyref 1 and was never formally addressed by that opinion, it just said "hey, we would be fine". It was nonsense then and nonsense now.
Population share does not determine continuation or succession.
Not so. All previous cases where there has been a challenge have been decided by the International Court of Justice not by the UN General Assembly.
Anybody fancy David Miliband to stand in Batley and Spen then challenge for the leadership?
Jo Cox' husband is every bit the SJW she was, I think it is odds on he will get the gig.
This I am not convinced about. It would be wrong to post details here, but a Google search on him will probably throw up some good reasons why they might not want to go for him.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Ireland 2008/09
Of course there are nuances: for instance, you could have a referendum on the new deal rather than just ignoring the first one. Still, the principle is sound. A democratic mandate validates new ways of action, within the law. This is true for the referendum, though the action seems unlikely to happen for months if ever, and it would be true for any subsequent general election. What should scare people is a general election before the beginning of negotiations, as it would magnify the uncertainties relative to stewardship by the current parliamentary majority; above all, whether the new government would be fully committed to asserting a democratic mandate from the referendum.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
You're incredibly tiresome. You name call us as racists.
When I point out that those who don't bother to vote, yet yap all over Twitter and click on a petition link to complain - it's entirely fair to point out that a majority weren't arsed when it mattered.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
Sorry Remainers have been ranting about leavers as racists for months on here and a Remain poster today on this political site has called for the referendum to be ignored because he didn't like the choice and will of the people.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
It wasn't the choice and the will of the people. It was the choice and the will of 52% of the people, some of whom regret it. 48% of the people disagreed. It isn't a game like a football match where the score stands. This is not over yet. Watch this space.
I'm wondering, any historical precedent of a referendum won by 2% being reversed?
Ireland 2008/09
lol, that wasn't by popular demand (should have caveated my original reply). That was because Brussels didn't like the first outcome.
Not so. I was in Ireland at the time. There was massive regret the next morning. The people gave the government a kicking because they were incensed (rightly) in being forced to bail out the banks. But they were relieved to have a second chance and gave a 70% yes vote. How could Brussels force people to vote yes? Come on.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
10,000's of them were seen wandering around Glastonbury looking for the polling station.
Yeah, that explains 1 or 2%, at a stretch.
The noisy tweeters intv'd all over the media represent a fraction of those who could've voted and didn't bother.
I'm frankly sick to death of the media sucking up to yoof voters as if their opinions mattered more.
They don't. And if they can't be arsed - well they should shut up.
You're saying that all young people who disagree with you should shut up because a poll found many 18-24 year olds didn't vote.
It's an extremely intolerant attitude.
I think Plato is saying they can't argue the old imposed their will on the young. The young abstained, only minority voted remain.
That is, to me, an over-generous interpretation. I read the argument as saying that the media should not report on young people on this issue, and young people should shut up, because one very small demographic group of young people (18-24) had a majority of abstainers in an opinion poll.
I think this is far more accurate than an opinion poll given that it is asking them to recall an activity from less than 48 hours ago.
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The exact quote was that "they should shut up".
You're incredibly tiresome. You name call us as racists.
When I point out that those who don't bother to vote, yet yap all over Twitter and click on a petition link to complain - it's entirely fair to point out that a majority weren't arsed when it mattered.
Why do people think Scotland has to be successor state to the UK to qualify for EU membership? Scotland's name needs to be listed on the Treaty of Union, so it's a treaty change and a new accession. There is a question of whether it could keep the UK's opt outs (answer: probably a couple - most importantly the UK CTA with Ireland, but would have to join the euro and charge VAT on food). The next question is whether the EU would offer Scotland accelerated accession. This question came up during the 2014 when it was reckoned the EU probably would do so. In the special circumstances of Scotland deciding to stay in the EU when the rest of the UK leaves would make it more likely again, I believe. Scotland would aim to complete EU accession, dissolution of the united kingdom simultaneously with Brexit. Finally there is the question of whether Scotland would be prepared to reduce public spending very drastically to meet EU fiscal rules and whether the loss of the internal UK market is too high a price to pay.
Its name?
RoC PRC.
Enough of this nonsense. If the EU (via QMV) decided Scotland was the continuing state and inherited the UK treaty obligations (by QMV) then there is nothing stopping the EU calling Scotland "the UK" while recognising in all other ways it was Scotland.
Comments
Of course there is a precedent with Russia where you can have an agreement of the other party to be the continuing state,
But that would carry a HEAVY price. Who do you fancy in that negotiation, Nicola or Boris?
But it is not a lot of good for people who have much in common with the Lib Dems but don't like the EU and don't think a continual rerun of the EU referendum is helpful for democracy - which seems to be about 30% of Lib Dem voters.
Think there will be lots of people in the New Politics who find themselves without a natural party home!
On your other points, Plato was saying they are being given undue weight, given the amount that actually got off their arses to vote.
The whole point of successor and continuing states is that the states dont get to choose. Everyone else does. Thats part of the reason why the UK is so desperate to keep Scotland. It would lose its UN Security Council seat with almost 100% certainty.
Seriously though, he did make some interesting points in his interview on Friday re free movement.
Certainly not the federast May. She's the only tory to actually SIGN BACK IN to negate one of our pitifully few EU opt outs. Dreadful anti-british pol.
Bear in mind I want Scottish Independence so I am only raising this because I see it as an issue which I hope could be dealt with.
If Scotland chose to use it to represent the EU...
The one with the aircraft carriers and subs that can turn everyone elses capitals into radioactive holes in the ground at five minutes notice tends to be the one recognised as the continuing state.
Be good to see him back on the front line.
For starters he would have been in the Final 2 last time if Cameron hadn't got a group of his supporters to vote Davis to get Davis into the Final ahead of Fox.
But that was 11 years ago - would Fox have as much support amongst the 2010 and 2015 intakes - who I think comprise approx 50% of Con MPs?
Finally his views on abortion are surely going to worry a lot of people - and the 2010 and 2015 intakes will be younger and thus probably likely to be more liberal on this subject.
So we knew those percentages before the polls had even opened.
Is anyone aware of any analysis of turnout by age/class etc, based on the actual result?
I was a trifle taken aback too. Mrs Ansell decided it was wise to back Leave a couple of days later. Her maj is teeny.
rest easy.
The only decision made over what is or is not a continuing state is by other countries and treaty organisations as to whether they recognise the status of countries as continuing states. Russia had to get agreement from every other CIS state that it was the continuing state. Likely down the barrel of a gun.
Is England and Wales going to put Scotland down the barrel of a gun and get Nicola to sign a letter agreeing to this? Or is it going to be negotiated? I know where my money is.
But even then, just having agreement from Scotland is not enough, it is still up to all other countries and treaty organisations how they view England and Wales and a lot would be very incentivised to consider England and Wales as a successor state. Especially those who want UN reform.
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/12/many-16-17-year-olds-voted/
They won't go independent though. This is just hot air. They can't afford it (which is why they joined the union in the first place)
Population share does not determine continuation or succession.
a) A leader who is "dismal, spineless, useless", to quote Toynbee.
b) A disconnect with some (half/more than half??) of its base who value "flag and family" over economic and technocratic solutions that sound good in think tanks and may even be good on the ground (e.g. SureStart).
At least David 'Prince over the Water' M would solve the first and is bright enough to be able to think about the 2nd.
But realistically, his moment has passed. Then again, as three impossible things happen before breakfast in politics at the moment -- he's back!
It's different where a country mutually splits (eg. Czechoslovakia etc)
Cos, umm, it's Scotland.
A few more votes in 2005, and he would have been in the final, and would have given Cameron a close run, perhaps won.
I would describe that as "intolerant" rather than a bunch of students bleating about a result they couldn't be bothered even to fill three lines on a free postal vote.
Next....
But, if I had a vote (which I don't because I've never been a Con member) I'd go with Theresa.
Is there no other? Raab possibly?
It wasn't too bad in 1997 when I moved down this way - and Eastbourne was lovely and gentile. I told my work colleagues there wasn't any graffiti and five hearing aid shops. It was so polite and English. Nowadays it's an enormous migrant population and very different. No wonder the locals have said No Thanks.
I spent oodles of time in Bognor. I'm very fond of it. I've a totally useless crane toy machine skill. Parents pay me to win fluffy things for their kids. I used to hand out bags of them to little ones on the piers.
Perhaps not best to nail your hopes to a bird that's already flown, even for a Lib Dem.
However, if it pulls in an extra 5% of the vote it would be a huge boost, given his current position! And the Lib Dems are in an unusual position in terms of their electoral acceptability to disillusioned business-leaning but non-doctrinaire Conservative voters.
I think we let him get away with things that other people would get pilloried for! I wonder sometimes how we make these judgements.
On similar note, FT had a graph with the UK areas/regions that traded most with EU being most Leave. Go figure.
If we was coming at this from LOTO then I'd be tempted to go for him but I'm not sure he's quite high profile enough to be put in as Con leader AND Prime Minister.
If the Tories are turfed out in 2020 he's probable for LOTO, IMO.
Such a bill might easily pass the commons ...
Fox still seems youthful, witty, optimistic, but not "too clever by half."
When I point out that those who don't bother to vote, yet yap all over Twitter and click on a petition link to complain - it's entirely fair to point out that a majority weren't arsed when it mattered.
It's so childish.
RoC PRC.
Enough of this nonsense. If the EU (via QMV) decided Scotland was the continuing state and inherited the UK treaty obligations (by QMV) then there is nothing stopping the EU calling Scotland "the UK" while recognising in all other ways it was Scotland.