Another point about that Farage poster. It was explicitly UKIP and not part of a cross party campaign. It was well pitched so as to capture what UKIP supporters (expect a hike in their numbers) think, and also to make the likes of Gove have his shudder. That bring on the shrieks of YOU'RE ALL RACISTS which makes the Leavers UKIP and non-UKIP even more likely to vote.
I might not like Farage. But he's a great politician.
And opened the eyes of many soft Leavers and undecided voters to exactly what and who they were voting alongside and for.
There was nothing clever about that poster. In one fell swoop it wiped out a large part of Leaves advantage in the one part of the argument they were ahead in.
I didn't like the poster. But I woukd guess a lot more people agreed with it or didn't care about it. A lot more.
I'd imagine anyone who liked that poster would already be a supporter of the BNP or Ukip or someone similar. Its a little too close too home in what it says about Farage and his supporters for some to endorse.
A lot more people will agree with it than vote UKIP or Bnp. Labour and Tory voters, many of them, will too. Will some be put off entirely? To be honest I try to ignore the campaigns at this point - I'm not particularly happy with what will come on June 24th but it would be hypocritical to just ignore the fundamental problem, for me, that the eu is heading in the wrong direction and is unwilling or unable to change.
Immigration works for Leave because David Cameron made a pledge to reduce immigration to less than 100 000. A pledge that he would have known that he had no chance of meeting. When Leave appropriated the same dishonest claim for their campaign he had no way of challenging it.
It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris. Their last final attempt to bring him centre stage is this poster, a poster which shows a tiny proportion, not even 1%, of the net migration that remainers want to continue coming into this country indefinitely.
Those of a certain mindset used to lament that they could not get the staff anymore. Inside the EU that is not true and the local oiks can be safely ignored. Similarly, the tradesmen get put back in their place, thankful for what work they can get and their wages diminished. And it is pretty much impossible to get a council house in the south of England as larger and newly arrived families jump the queue. But that is not really a problem for the ABs either is it?
The greedy and selfish haves may prevail with their moral blackmail and blatant self interest on Thursday but I hope not.
Hear hear!
Yep, Charles, you'll be absolutely fine post-Brexit. Join the gang. DavidL's a member too, along with Topping, Alastair Meeks and a few others on here. We don't have to worry about further public services cuts and possible tax hikes. We'll get along just fine. And, as an added bonus, millions of Turks will not descend upon us in the next few years.
I believe a lot of our fellow country men and women dont do well out of the current settlement. This is a chance to change that. That is what drovecmy vote - as you said, I'll be just fine personally
'Yep, Topping will be fine when we Brexit. So will I, so will you. No problem either for those who do not need to work or for the retired. Unfortunately, it will b a different story for millions of our countrymen.'
You mean the millions of our countrymen that have seen their wages stagnate for the past decade or hear that we have a permanent skills shortage (code for we can import someone that will do the job for much lower wages).
That's before you get to the housing crisis or being granted a GP appointment three weeks after being ill.
Farage is nothing to do with why I shall be voting Leave.
But the corollary of Leave - that we get to push Farage off the gravy train, whilst closing down UKIP's major source of funding - that is a tasty by-product.
VOTE TO SACK FARAGE - VOTE LEAVE!
The trouble is you have to vote with him in the first instance. His poster has made that a lot harder for most people to do.
And the further trouble is that, in the event of a leave vote, UKIP probably has a viable future, in the medium term at least, as the 'guardians of the true conscience' when the Tory leavers enter into whatever pragmatic deal is necessary to protect our trade. When people realise this probably involves some combination of annual payment to the EU, following a lot of EU rules, and accepting some form of free movement, UKIP will be quick to cry 'betrayal' and win the support of those naive enough to think that this Friday all the immigrants will disappear and we will suddenly be awash with unspent government money.
Yep, buy shares in Betrayal.
Yes by Friday the focus for angry, betrayed tweeters will have moved from cybernats to cyberkippers
I fear a Remain vote will solve little even if it's 55 - 45.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
Mr. CD13, the fractious nature of the referendum has made things unlikely to calm down. Remain are suggesting (or parts of the campaign are suggesting at least) that Leavers are intolerant, unkind, xenophobic etc. People won't forget that.
'Yep, Topping will be fine when we Brexit. So will I, so will you. No problem either for those who do not need to work or for the retired. Unfortunately, it will b a different story for millions of our countrymen.'
You mean the millions of our countrymen that have seen their wages stagnate for the past decade or hear that we have a permanent skills shortage (code for we can import someone that will do the job for much lower wages).
That's before you get to the housing crisis or being granted a GP appointment three weeks after being ill.
Yes, nine years ago there was a massive financial collapse that did huge damage to the global economy. Wages are stagnant across the developed world.
On Topic: I'm sure most Remainiacs want the referendum to be a vote on Farage. But I'm not sure that it will be. Maybe Farage has reached the angry WWC (ex-Labour) vote while Boris and Gove have tickled the likes of me.
With the entire Establishment and polite company types against him, he still secured several million votes at the GE2015.
He's not my cup of tea, but he's done something quite remarkable. And he speaks for those who feel looked down on/ignored. He doesn't sneer or belittle them, or call them stupid or racist. He gets their concerns.
Gove et al speak my sort of language and my values. It's a pretty powerful combination - and whether we win or lose, we're now 50%ish of the population.
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'm sure the poster will tank in London, where it's called "racist" on the front of the free and vacuous Metro. But was it meant to go up on any billboards inside the M25? No. This is speaking to Essex, Lincolnshire and the like, where the metropolitan squeamishness does not reach.
It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris. Their last final attempt to bring him centre stage is this poster, a poster which shows a tiny proportion, not even 1%, of the net migration that remainers want to continue coming into this country indefinitely.
Those of a certain mindset used to lament that they could not get the staff anymore. Inside the EU that is not true and the local oiks can be safely ignored. Similarly, the tradesmen get put back in their place, thankful for what work they can get and their wages diminished. And it is pretty much impossible to get a council house in the south of England as larger and newly arrived families jump the queue. But that is not really a problem for the ABs either is it?
The greedy and selfish haves may prevail with their moral blackmail and blatant self interest on Thursday but I hope not.
Hear hear!
Yep, Charles, you'll be absolutely fine post-Brexit. Join the gang. DavidL's a member too, along with Topping, Alastair Meeks and a few others on here. We don't have to worry about further public services cuts and possible tax hikes. We'll get along just fine. And, as an added bonus, millions of Turks will not descend upon us in the next few years.
I believe a lot of our fellow country men and women dont do well out of the current settlement. This is a chance to change that. That is what drovecmy vote - as you said, I'll be just fine personally
But in saying Hear, Hear to DavidL's post you clearly believe that those who believe Remain is the best option are doing so only for selfish reasons. Can you explain how that works?
The righteous indignation over this poster from PBers who I am sure I remember critisising Merkel in strident terms when she created this tidal wave is something to behold. I seem to remember Cameron being praised to the skies for his measured approach in not letting them in. Was he being racist?
It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris. Their last final attempt to bring him centre stage is this poster, a poster which shows a tiny proportion, not even 1%, of the net migration that remainers want to continue coming into this country indefinitely.
Those of a certain mindset used to lament that they could not get the staff anymore. Inside the EU that is not true and the local oiks can be safely ignored. Similarly, the tradesmen get put back in their place, thankful for what work they can get and their wages diminished. And it is pretty much impossible to get a council house in the south of England as larger and newly arrived families jump the queue. But that is not really a problem for the ABs either is it?
The greedy and selfish haves may prevail with their moral blackmail and blatant self interest on Thursday but I hope not.
British jobs for British workers sounds like a good idea. Whether the local population will be queuing up to do the hotel jobs that are currently being done by other Europeans or whether they will just revert to the standards of the late 70's is a moot point. It's not only in the UK that unfashionable jobs are not being taken up by the local populations. Maybe the UK can buck the trend but I wouldn't hold your breath
What I enjoyed the most about Farage's poster is that exactly the same image appeared in the Guardian in Oct last year.
In what context?
Presumably "oh look at these poor people, somebody must do something."
To be fair to the PM, he stood firm whilst others demanded that we take our fair share. In that respect I think the Tory Remainers on here have a right to have a go at Farage from the point of it still be the prerogative of the UK PM to decide these things - that one day it might be a Labour PM shows that Britain is still sovereign.
I have no sympathy, however, for Labour Remainers who did want us to do the same as Merkel. They provided Farage with the open goal and he hasn't missed.
I fear a Remain vote will solve little even if it's 55 - 45.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
Juncker surprisingly seems to get the message, the Times reports when an aide said a Leave vote would be good for further integration he said no it would be a symbol of receding appetite for union across the continent. Schauble too has said even a narrow Remain would require recognition that was not an endorsement for integration either
I fear a Remain vote will solve little even if it's 55 - 45.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
Juncker surprisingly seems to get the message, the Times reports when an aide said a Leave vote would be good for further integration he said no it would be a symbol of receding appetite for union across the continent. Schauble too has said even a narrow Remain would require recognition that was not an endorsement for integration either
They always get the message in the moment - and then things continue on when the populist 'contagion' has passed.
'All of which doesn't detract from my view that we gain so much from being in the EU that we oughtn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater "just" to address the immigration issue.'
The problem is that it's not 'just' about the immigration issue.
I'm sure the poster will tank in London, where it's called "racist" on the front of the free and vacuous Metro. But was it meant to go up on any billboards inside the M25? No. This is speaking to Essex, Lincolnshire and the like, where the metropolitan squeamishness does not reach.
@faisalislam: Yorkshire Post article where Warsi confirmed support for Brexit. Low key, yes, but a clear lie to say she did not.. https://t.co/CBdyb8hpE7
Wow 1 (one) article in 8 weeks campaigning mentioning her almost obiter.
I fear a Remain vote will solve little even if it's 55 - 45.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
Juncker surprisingly seems to get the message, the Times reports when an aide said a Leave vote would be good for further integration he said no it would be a symbol of receding appetite for union across the continent. Schauble too has said even a narrow Remain would require recognition that was not an endorsement for integration either
They always get the message in the moment - and then things continue on when the populist 'contagion' has passed.
Farage is best understood as the leader of a movement, not as someone trying to get a majority. The poster reflects the views of the movement, and frankly he's more moderate than some of his followers, so we are being naïve if we are shocked. As HYUFD says, he'll be fine after Thursday - vote Remain and he'll hope for the SNP effect, vote Leave and he'll start polishing his Betrayal! lines as difficulties mount and immigration continues.
The problem for Vote Leave is that they really do want a majority, so they've tried to sideline Farage, whose movement's followers are 95% on board already. Conversely it's in Remain's interest to focus on him and make it a vote on "Do you like Farage?" It's all low politics, but not hard to follow.
'It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris'
Spot on, they could then smear anyone that supported Leave as waycists.
73% will vote on Thursday of which about 60% will turn up.
60% of 73 % is 44%.
So we have 71% turnout of which 44% vote on the day and 27% voted before that poster or Thursdays dreadful event.
Thst means that JUST UNDER 40% OF THOSE WHO WILL VOTE HAVE ALREADY VOTED.
Its over - remain have already lost, hence all the signs of bitterness and capitulation.
Labours famous Postal Vote machine has won it for Brexit.
Slightly faulty logic there . You assume that 100% of the 27% of the electorate who have postal votes will actually use them whereas in reality it will be around 85-90%
Farage is best understood as the leader of a movement, not as someone trying to get a majority. The poster reflects the views of the movement, and frankly he's more moderate than some of his followers, so we are being naïve if we are shocked. As HYUFD says, he'll be fine after Thursday - vote Remain and he'll hope for the SNP effect, vote Leave and he'll start polishing his Betrayal! lines as difficulties mount and immigration continues.
The problem for Vote Leave is that they really do want a majority, so they've tried to sideline Farage, whose movement's followers are 95% on board already. Conversely it's in Remain's interest to focus on him and make it a vote on "Do you like Farage?" It's all low politics, but not hard to follow.
Thank you, Nick. I've had four attempts at trying to say how I view Farage and you've introduced nail to head far more effectively.
'All of which doesn't detract from my view that we gain so much from being in the EU that we oughtn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater "just" to address the immigration issue.'
The problem is that it's not 'just' about the immigration issue.
'It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris'
Spot on, they could then smear anyone that supported Leave as waycists.
Patrick O'Flynn For nearly every Leaver I know, this question is most profoundly about democracy and sovereignty. Time to argue on this fundamental point.
73% will vote on Thursday of which about 60% will turn up.
60% of 73 % is 44%.
So we have 71% turnout of which 44% vote on the day and 27% voted before that poster or Thursdays dreadful event.
Thst means that JUST UNDER 40% OF THOSE WHO WILL VOTE HAVE ALREADY VOTED.
Its over - remain have already lost, hence all the signs of bitterness and capitulation.
Labours famous Postal Vote machine has won it for Brexit.
Slightly faulty logic there . You assume that 100% of the 27% of the electorate who have postal votes will actually use them whereas in reality it will be around 85-90%
73% will vote on Thursday of which about 60% will turn up.
60% of 73 % is 44%.
So we have 71% turnout of which 44% vote on the day and 27% voted before that poster or Thursdays dreadful event.
Thst means that JUST UNDER 40% OF THOSE WHO WILL VOTE HAVE ALREADY VOTED.
Its over - remain have already lost, hence all the signs of bitterness and capitulation.
Labours famous Postal Vote machine has won it for Brexit.
Slightly faulty logic there . You assume that 100% of the 27% of the electorate who have postal votes will actually use them whereas in reality it will be around 85-90%
Not a great deal of difference in any case less tha 60% of the rest may turn up.
Either way over a third of votes are already cast.
I fear a Remain vote will solve little even if it's 55 - 45.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
Juncker surprisingly seems to get the message, the Times reports when an aide said a Leave vote would be good for further integration he said no it would be a symbol of receding appetite for union across the continent. Schauble too has said even a narrow Remain would require recognition that was not an endorsement for integration either
They always get the message in the moment - and then things continue on when the populist 'contagion' has passed.
It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris. Their last final attempt to bring him centre stage is this poster, a poster which shows a tiny proportion, not even 1%, of the net migration that remainers want to continue coming into this country indefinitely.
Those of a certain mindset used to lament that they could not get the staff anymore. Inside the EU that is not true and the local oiks can be safely ignored. Similarly, the tradesmen get put back in their place, thankful for what work they can get and their wages diminished. And it is pretty much impossible to get a council house in the south of England as larger and newly arrived families jump the queue. But that is not really a problem for the ABs either is it?
The greedy and selfish haves may prevail with their moral blackmail and blatant self interest on Thursday but I hope not.
Wow. Defending Farage's poster.
So all that guff about sovereignty was just that, was it? Actually it boils down to the foreigners coming over here and taking our houses and jobs.
Have you spoken to C2DE voters or better still non-voters? That's *exactly* what they are saying. And the non-voters who wouldn't bother in a general election "cos they're all the same"? They're voting this time. Contrary to popular belief the working class aren't stupid - they understand that every vote counts in this one.
You should be trying to talk them around not indulging them.
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'd say 4m votes, an enormous increase on 2010 was magnificent.
'It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris'
Spot on, they could then smear anyone that supported Leave as waycists.
I suggest we call John Oliver, Bedford Oliver from now on to promote the place of residence of OGH with our transatlantic cousins. And to distinguish him from Olivers who hail from other parts of the UK- such as Bath Oliver.
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
73% will vote on Thursday of which about 60% will turn up.
60% of 73 % is 44%.
So we have 71% turnout of which 44% vote on the day and 27% voted before that poster or Thursdays dreadful event.
Thst means that JUST UNDER 40% OF THOSE WHO WILL VOTE HAVE ALREADY VOTED.
Its over - remain have already lost, hence all the signs of bitterness and capitulation.
Labours famous Postal Vote machine has won it for Brexit.
I'm fairly sure that it's the Tories who disproportionately utilise postal votes?
Not sure that was true in the Oldham by election. Anecdotal evidence suggests some interesting practices being followed. Probably the only time I'll ever agree with Farage!!
It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris. Their last final attempt to bring him centre stage is this poster, a poster which shows a tiny proportion, not even 1%, of the net migration that remainers want to continue coming into this country indefinitely.
Those of a certain mindset used to lament that they could not get the staff anymore. Inside the EU that is not true and the local oiks can be safely ignored. Similarly, the tradesmen get put back in their place, thankful for what work they can get and their wages diminished. And it is pretty much impossible to get a council house in the south of England as larger and newly arrived families jump the queue. But that is not really a problem for the ABs either is it?
The greedy and selfish haves may prevail with their moral blackmail and blatant self interest on Thursday but I hope not.
Wow. Defending Farage's poster.
So all that guff about sovereignty was just that, was it? Actually it boils down to the foreigners coming over here and taking our houses and jobs.
Have you spoken to C2DE voters or better still non-voters? That's *exactly* what they are saying. And the non-voters who wouldn't bother in a general election "cos they're all the same"? They're voting this time. Contrary to popular belief the working class aren't stupid - they understand that every vote counts in this one.
You should be trying to talk them around not indulging them.
Hmm. Do we have specific evidence that non-voters are voting this time?
Farage is best understood as the leader of a movement, not as someone trying to get a majority. The poster reflects the views of the movement, and frankly he's more moderate than some of his followers, so we are being naïve if we are shocked. As HYUFD says, he'll be fine after Thursday - vote Remain and he'll hope for the SNP effect, vote Leave and he'll start polishing his Betrayal! lines as difficulties mount and immigration continues.
The problem for Vote Leave is that they really do want a majority, so they've tried to sideline Farage, whose movement's followers are 95% on board already. Conversely it's in Remain's interest to focus on him and make it a vote on "Do you like Farage?" It's all low politics, but not hard to follow.
Farage is best understood as the leader of a movement, not as someone trying to get a majority. The poster reflects the views of the movement, and frankly he's more moderate than some of his followers, so we are being naïve if we are shocked. As HYUFD says, he'll be fine after Thursday - vote Remain and he'll hope for the SNP effect, vote Leave and he'll start polishing his Betrayal! lines as difficulties mount and immigration continues.
The problem for Vote Leave is that they really do want a majority, so they've tried to sideline Farage, whose movement's followers are 95% on board already. Conversely it's in Remain's interest to focus on him and make it a vote on "Do you like Farage?" It's all low politics, but not hard to follow.
Thank you, Nick. I've had four attempts at trying to say how I view Farage and you've introduced nail to head far more effectively.
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'd say 4m votes, an enormous increase on 2010 was magnificent.
Presumably Paul and his fellow travellers who have declared victory for leave will be putting their houses on the widely available 5/2 on such an outcome.
must admit, when I first saw the poster I immediately thought back to the Labour isn't working one and thought OMG how much longer are they going to drag this picture out.
I never thought it was racist until the explosion of comment on here and the MSM.
Not sure how much resonance the racism tag will get with my generation
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'd say 4m votes, an enormous increase on 2010 was magnificent.
Which seat did he win?
We both know the answer to that question, ukip have 1/650 representation in parliament, amongst the electorate it is much very much higher.
And I'll remind you that you voted for a party that pledged to reduce immigration to tens of thousands.
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
Patrick O'Flynn For nearly every Leaver I know, this question is most profoundly about democracy and sovereignty. Time to argue on this fundamental point.
Trans. Stop talking about immigration.
Trouble is.....they can't or they lose...... Which is why ze poster was such a mistake.
Hmm. Do we have specific evidence that non-voters are voting this time?
None at all. I haven't seen anything from any of the pollsters (they all appear a little nervous) so no hard data. But we have seen the effects of data gathered by others. I've been out on the doors and on street stalls. People down as Won't Vote are voting this time. People who say "you're all the same" are motivated this time. And we've seen the party responses to the polling data - Labour HQ seemed to crap itself when they collated all the VID numbers together a week and a half ago. The Tories called an emergency press conference to announce nothing new. And we saw swings in the polls.
It could all be anecdote. But the mood feels very different to previous elections....
See you on Friday then - and do be sure to tell your friends LEAVE have won....
There are close to 40 million reasons on betfair suggesting the alternative.
The size of the betfair market on this vote is staggering. God knows how much money has been put on this election so far across all bookies, and to dishearten my leave comrades, it doesn't look to be going your way.
"A short while ago sterling was up 1.6% against the dollar at $1.459. Polls over the weekend suggested a shift towards a vote to remain in the European Union. The pound fell sharply last week after polls appeared to indicate the Leave campaign taking the lead." FTSE now up 2.4% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36573757
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
The poster aims for a certain demographic. The fact that it can reach that demographic and receive a reaction of that's understandable or that's acceptable rather than that's disgusting shows how badly the current political classes are in understanding let alone representing that demographic.
Remember Hitler rose to power because for many people all hope was lost. For many WWC people that is probably exactly how their currently feel... If you don't understand that that could be the case it may not be the poster that is disgusting but your blinked views unable to see the issues and viewpoints of those less fortunate than you.
"A short while ago sterling was up 1.6% against the dollar at $1.459. Polls over the weekend suggested a shift towards a vote to remain in the European Union. The pound fell sharply last week after polls appeared to indicate the Leave campaign taking the lead." FTSE now up 2.4% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36573757
It does feel like people are putting a lot of faith in the polls. I'm not sure it's wise.
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
Maybe, but so has been Remain's appropriation of the murder of an MP. Neither side is 'cleaner' than the other.
BTW, as I've said on here a couple of times already, it has been my experience that it is not just "White British" voters who are concerned about immigration levels. The issue is more complicated than that.
"A short while ago sterling was up 1.6% against the dollar at $1.459. Polls over the weekend suggested a shift towards a vote to remain in the European Union. The pound fell sharply last week after polls appeared to indicate the Leave campaign taking the lead." FTSE now up 2.4% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36573757
Leading Leaver Leadsom calls for more deficit after Leave vote to help economy through uncertainty (in Telegraph):
"Even if the continual scaremongering of the Remain side were to create short term uncertainty after a vote to leave, then a temporary fiscal stimulus would be the obvious choice instead of punishing the poor. Government 10 year interest rates have fallen to a record low : borrowing is cheaper than ever."
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'd say 4m votes, an enormous increase on 2010 was magnificent.
Which seat did he win?
We both know the answer to that question, ukip have 1/650 representation in parliament, amongst the electorate it is much very much higher.
And I'll remind you that you voted for a party that pledged to reduce immigration to tens of thousands.
You're a hypocrite.
You've no idea what my reasons for voting were. But to help. Immigration and Europe weren't among them. So now we've edablished I'm not a hypocrite, or at least not in the way you're suggesting.
The problem with Farage is that for every voter he attracts he repels at least 2 others.
Leading Leaver Leadsom calls for more deficit after Leave vote to help economy through uncertainty (in Telegraph):
"Even if the continual scaremongering of the Remain side were to create short term uncertainty after a vote to leave, then a temporary fiscal stimulus would be the obvious choice instead of punishing the poor. Government 10 year interest rates have fallen to a record low : borrowing is cheaper than ever."
Osborne needs to pounce on this.
Seems a perfectly reasonable statement giving Osborne the type of expert advice he seems to be unaware of.
Leading Leaver Leadsom calls for more deficit after Leave vote to help economy through uncertainty (in Telegraph):
"Even if the continual scaremongering of the Remain side were to create short term uncertainty after a vote to leave, then a temporary fiscal stimulus would be the obvious choice instead of punishing the poor. Government 10 year interest rates have fallen to a record low : borrowing is cheaper than ever."
Osborne needs to pounce on this.
To promise what?
That he would keep on cutting and raising taxes when there is £25bn in aid and EU fees available?
It never fails to amaze me that once again on here and elsewhere Farage has apparently blown it.
In my experience the Farage naysayers for all their flowery rhetoric ALWAYS call it wrong about the impact on public opinion that his actions will have. You are all talking to yourselves, and for gambling people your strategy of consistently backing a losing position, suggests the bookies must love you to bits. I would put more faith in my local town hall clock being correct, which although broken is at least right twice a day.
Farage is the supreme campaigner, he has had no equal in British poltics for the last 20 years, and all this fake moral judgement on him whilst ignoring exactly the same thing from others, will be as ineffective as every attempt in the past. All it will do it reinforce the view of the 70% of the population who are concerned about the issue pf immigration, is that once again those who caused the problem are trying to shut down debate by attacking the only person brave who has been brave enough to raise it.
Obviously that explains his magnificent record at General Elections.
I'd say 4m votes, an enormous increase on 2010 was magnificent.
Which seat did he win?
We both know the answer to that question, ukip have 1/650 representation in parliament, amongst the electorate it is much very much higher.
And I'll remind you that you voted for a party that pledged to reduce immigration to tens of thousands.
You're a hypocrite.
You've no idea what my reasons for voting were. But to help. Immigration and Europe weren't among them. So now we've edablished I'm not a hypocrite, or at least not in the way you're suggesting.
The problem with Farage is that for every voter he attracts he repels at least 2 others.
You voted for a party that pledged to reduce immigration, as did millions of others, please don't hide from that.
Do you think we should manage the population numbers?
A simple yes or no will suffice (as unlikely as that is)
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
What I despise about this poster (apart from its obvious Goebbels iconography) is that it has sod all to do with the EU. The people depicted in this poster are displaced populations from war torn areas outside the EU. It would be similar to Italy having a campaign against the EU showing a boat full of migrants.
That is why for me the idea of a European army is entirely persuasive- a joint force to deal with the Libyan coastline, the borders onto Turkey, and to help with reconstruction of war torn areas. This is in all our interests.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
The poster aims for a certain demographic. The fact that it can reach that demographic and receive a reaction of that's understandable or that's acceptable rather than that's disgusting shows how badly the current political classes are in understanding let alone representing that demographic.
I agree - the poster IS disgusting. But here is the difference between a Britain's First "disgusting" poster reviled by almost everyone and a UKIP "disgusting" poster that me and thee may find disgusting but millions do not.
I have my views. My morality. My judgement about right and wrong. I cannot impose my value and judgements upon others. So regardless of what I think about the poster, providing that its legal then its not up to me to ban it to protect the minds of others whose morality and judgement is different to my own.
"A short while ago sterling was up 1.6% against the dollar at $1.459. Polls over the weekend suggested a shift towards a vote to remain in the European Union. The pound fell sharply last week after polls appeared to indicate the Leave campaign taking the lead." FTSE now up 2.4% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36573757
It does feel like people are putting a lot of faith in the polls. I'm not sure it's wise.
So to be clear you are defending the poster? Let's be clear here.
I don't like the poster personally. It is an exaggeration of a problem that is a concern for a lot of people, but hardly the first exaggeration by either side in this horrible campaign. We've reached a similar position as that in the US with Trump, in which a certain percentage of the population have lost all patience with political correctness and are excited by politicians that are seen to be ignoring - or deliberately flying in the face of - political correctness taboos altogether.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
A very lukewarm response to my question. Ditto Rochdale. The poster is effing disgusting. Pure and simple.
The poster aims for a certain demographic. The fact that it can reach that demographic and receive a reaction of that's understandable or that's acceptable rather than that's disgusting shows how badly the current political classes are in understanding let alone representing that demographic.
Just watched it. Very funny as he usually is, and not particularly surprised at his view or angle. Not going to shift many floating voters in the next three days though.
Hmm. Do we have specific evidence that non-voters are voting this time?
None at all. I haven't seen anything from any of the pollsters (they all appear a little nervous) so no hard data. But we have seen the effects of data gathered by others. I've been out on the doors and on street stalls. People down as Won't Vote are voting this time. People who say "you're all the same" are motivated this time. And we've seen the party responses to the polling data - Labour HQ seemed to crap itself when they collated all the VID numbers together a week and a half ago. The Tories called an emergency press conference to announce nothing new. And we saw swings in the polls.
It could all be anecdote. But the mood feels very different to previous elections....
There are two completely contradictory trends here. On the one hand, we get anecdote (usually from the already strongly committed) that previous non-voters will turn out; on the other, street-level activity is non-existent: no hand-delivered leaflets, no canvassing in person or by telephone, precious few posters - and so on. Street stall seem popular but that's about it.
The contrast with the SIndyRef is huge. There, you simply could not miss that there was a gigantic political event happening; here, if you don't watch the news and don't read the papers, you easily could - and could certainly decide that it wasn't important. Sure, there'll be some WNVs (GE) who will vote in the referendum but then there'll be some going the other way too, who are either too confused by the debate to decide how to vote or don't think it's that big a deal.
Eh, online that comparison has been made since he came back with the 'deal' so I don't find it quite as impactful as it might be on someone who hasn't been following the minutiae who turned in to the programme.
Comments
'Yep, Topping will be fine when we Brexit. So will I, so will you. No problem either for those who do not need to work or for the retired. Unfortunately, it will b a different story for millions of our countrymen.'
You mean the millions of our countrymen that have seen their wages stagnate for the past decade or hear that we have a permanent skills shortage (code for we can import someone that will do the job for much lower wages).
That's before you get to the housing crisis or being granted a GP appointment three weeks after being ill.
A minority of voters favour political union and unlimited immigration. It's a legitimate view, but held predominantly by the favoured and the noisy. A smaller minority just want a total ban on immigration.
The majority view would be a stop to further progress to political union, controlled immigration, and staying in an economic community that benefits all. That is not an option. If we vote Remain as I suspect we will, the EU will think a win is a win and proceed on their inexorable path.
This week, Remain will make noises about being flexible in the future. Tristram Hunt has been pointing out Labour's massive split. Tom Watson has been wavering. They know it won't happen. We've seen the evidence over the last forty years and over Cameron's renegotiation that wasn't.
Cameron can't make a vow but others can send out reassuring noises. "We're listening to you" blah blah blah.
Passions have been aroused and when the volume control is turned down again to zero, and they say - "There's no problem", there will be a reaction in the polls. Cameron is a busted flush, but he won't worry, "Apres moi, le deluge," after all.
We're a different country than we were forty years ago. The plebs don't like being ignored or insulted,
http://southporttimes.co.uk/?p=1738
He's not my cup of tea, but he's done something quite remarkable. And he speaks for those who feel looked down on/ignored. He doesn't sneer or belittle them, or call them stupid or racist. He gets their concerns.
Gove et al speak my sort of language and my values. It's a pretty powerful combination - and whether we win or lose, we're now 50%ish of the population.
To be fair to the PM, he stood firm whilst others demanded that we take our fair share. In that respect I think the Tory Remainers on here have a right to have a go at Farage from the point of it still be the prerogative of the UK PM to decide these things - that one day it might be a Labour PM shows that Britain is still sovereign.
I have no sympathy, however, for Labour Remainers who did want us to do the same as Merkel. They provided Farage with the open goal and he hasn't missed.
It targets a particular market and it will probably have a postive impact if it encourages a few more C2DE to vote...
'All of which doesn't detract from my view that we gain so much from being in the EU that we oughtn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater "just" to address the immigration issue.'
The problem is that it's not 'just' about the immigration issue.
73% will vote on Thursday of which about 60% will turn up.
60% of 73 % is 44%.
So we have 71% turnout of which 44% vote on the day and 27% voted before that poster or Thursdays dreadful event.
Thst means that JUST UNDER 40% OF THOSE WHO WILL VOTE HAVE ALREADY VOTED.
Its over - remain have already lost, hence all the signs of bitterness and capitulation.
Labours famous Postal Vote machine has won it for Brexit.
I see all the rancour and spite has been removed from the two campaigns as was promised on Friday. :-)
"The blue-chip FTSE 100 index has jumped by 134 points, or over 2%, during Nigel Farage’s interview."
Was out yesteday, did we get any yesterday?
The problem for Vote Leave is that they really do want a majority, so they've tried to sideline Farage, whose movement's followers are 95% on board already. Conversely it's in Remain's interest to focus on him and make it a vote on "Do you like Farage?" It's all low politics, but not hard to follow.
'It seems to me that Remain have been desperate to make this about Farage from the beginning and have been frustrated by his relatively low profile during the campaign, a campaign led by Gove and Boris'
Spot on, they could then smear anyone that supported Leave as waycists.
Trans. Stop talking about immigration.
Either way over a third of votes are already cast.
Childish and very weird.
The poster is intended for the WWC base of Leave; Gove can then come out and say he "shudders" to reflect the middle class Leavers.
Harder for those countries to leave, though, as they're in the eurozone. The one-way ratchet has been designed well.
"There's that deliberate misspelling again."
Viz used to have a cartoon character called Student Grant who was a posh, lefty, right-on student and he used to call everyone "Waycists."
I suspect that's where it came from originally.
It was very funny, and ahead of its time.
I never thought it was racist until the explosion of comment on here and the MSM.
Not sure how much resonance the racism tag will get with my generation
And I'll remind you that you voted for a party that pledged to reduce immigration to tens of thousands.
You're a hypocrite.
It could all be anecdote. But the mood feels very different to previous elections....
The size of the betfair market on this vote is staggering. God knows how much money has been put on this election so far across all bookies, and to dishearten my leave comrades, it doesn't look to be going your way.
https://twitter.com/Daily_Express/status/744776316537311237
Polls over the weekend suggested a shift towards a vote to remain in the European Union.
The pound fell sharply last week after polls appeared to indicate the Leave campaign taking the lead."
FTSE now up 2.4%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36573757
Remember Hitler rose to power because for many people all hope was lost. For many WWC people that is probably exactly how their currently feel... If you don't understand that that could be the case it may not be the poster that is disgusting but your blinked views unable to see the issues and viewpoints of those less fortunate than you.
BTW, as I've said on here a couple of times already, it has been my experience that it is not just "White British" voters who are concerned about immigration levels. The issue is more complicated than that.
"FTSEs up"
"Yeah, so is immigration."
"Even if the continual scaremongering of the Remain side were to create short term uncertainty after a vote to leave, then a temporary fiscal stimulus would be the obvious choice instead of punishing the poor. Government 10 year interest rates have fallen to a record low : borrowing is cheaper than ever."
Osborne needs to pounce on this.
The problem with Farage is that for every voter he attracts he repels at least 2 others.
That he would keep on cutting and raising taxes when there is £25bn in aid and EU fees available?
"Yet still you vote for his squalid campaign."
Farage has some similarities to Cameron. He is a politician and will do what is necessary to win. They have both become unpopular for that reason.
"No ifs, no buts." Was that Farage or Cameron? I forget.
I have some sympathy for Jezza, he is honest at least, but he's a loser.
Do you think we should manage the population numbers?
A simple yes or no will suffice (as unlikely as that is)
That is why for me the idea of a European army is entirely persuasive- a joint force to deal with the Libyan coastline, the borders onto Turkey, and to help with reconstruction of war torn areas. This is in all our interests.
I have my views. My morality. My judgement about right and wrong. I cannot impose my value and judgements upon others. So regardless of what I think about the poster, providing that its legal then its not up to me to ban it to protect the minds of others whose morality and judgement is different to my own.
Otherwise I'd be Mary Whitehouse.
The contrast with the SIndyRef is huge. There, you simply could not miss that there was a gigantic political event happening; here, if you don't watch the news and don't read the papers, you easily could - and could certainly decide that it wasn't important. Sure, there'll be some WNVs (GE) who will vote in the referendum but then there'll be some going the other way too, who are either too confused by the debate to decide how to vote or don't think it's that big a deal.
I'm sticking with my central prediction of 63%.
https://twitter.com/Claire_Phipps/status/744801287850459136