From 2015 result, if the Tories don't stand in Batley and Spen and UKIP does you could actually envisage a UKIP win (Tories were 6,000 votes behind Labour with UKIP 12,000 votesbehind in 2015)
From 2015 result, if the Tories don't stand in Batley and Spen and UKIP does you could actually envisage a UKIP win (Tories were 6,000 votes behind Labour with UKIP 12,000 votesbehind in 2015)
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
Just logged back in to agree with SeanT: this is nuts. Totally insane.
It's a tragedy but it must not and cannot be allowed to upset the vote. The campaign must resume at 9am tomorrow.
Parliament can be recalled after the referendum for tributes.
I don't think you can reasonably expect people to campaign when one of their close friends and colleagues has been murdered by a member of the public.
If someone close to me had died, let alone murdered, I would not want to go out. Would you?
Pathetic. A close member of my family died from terminal cancer last year.
I went to work the next day, and took time to mourn when I had it in my own time. I did not allow it to upset any of my major professional commitments.
This might be very hard for a few dozen who knew Jo very well, and my heart goes out to them, but it cannot and must not be allowed to disrupt the votes of millions to decide the destiny of our country.
We are getting very very close here to making the referendum one on her tragic death, or talking ourselves into postponing the vote.
Correct. First time a sitting MP is murdered by a nutter in 204 years, and the world is supposed to stop.
Corbyn is her party leader. of course he needs to be there.
Cameron is PM.
@paulwaugh: Speaker Bercow and the local chaplain will also join Corbyn, who is leading the event, and the PM, I'm told
I have said upthread, more than once, I would like to see Cameron and Boris discussing the campaigns, but today is not the day, and Birstall is not the place.
Agreed. This is not about the referendum, remain or leave should not matter. Her leader and the PM and the speaker perfectly well represent the Commons regardless of party or policy. This isn't political, this is tragic and criminal.
I am shown three doors. Behind one is some one using the murder of Jo Cox to further their political agenda, behind the other two are people saying it was the act of a mentally ill man. I choose door one, the host opens door three to reveal raging Europhile leftie James O'Brien on LBC hosting a show about the effect that political campaigning, naming no names, had on yesterdays murder. Do I switch?
This "raging Europhile leftie" James O'Brien is judged by the BBC to be an appropriate impartial person to also host Newsnight? Beyond belief. After "hosting a show about the effect that political campaigning, naming no names, had on yesterdays murder" in which he kept saying that it was right to speculate on the motives of the killer because if the killer had been a moslem that fact would have been stated early in the news reports..........
O'Brien is one of the most controversial and polemic LBC presenters. He's the Lefty version of David Starkey. I thought the Newsnight gig was a joke - its legit?
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
People die all the time and their friends have to get on with life. Democracy matters. The referendum matters. We can't put this on hold because of one event - no matter how awful it is for the people concerned. And if the MP does not feel like going out they have volunteers and others to face the public. We risk getting into ridiculous over-reaction. There are those who knew and worked with her who are obviously affected. There are many millions of others for which this is not personal. Tough as this may sound, a sense of proportion is needed.
Agreed.
I never replied to you before about the prospects for soft, centre left wing politics for 2020 with a Brexit vote. Not great I'm afraid. You see Brexit will lead to an economic shock, prolonged by years of political and economic uncertainty. Except this'll be worse than 2008 because we are in a much weaker fiscal position to deal with this kind of shock. .....
Tyson, thankyou for the reply. Just to be clear on the economic shock, when is this going to take place so that we can all watch out for it? Does it start in 2016 with the Brexit vote or is it delayed to 2017 or 2018 or does it only start in the year that we actually exit, such as 2020?
PS The Treasury central forecast was for a milder recession much milder than 2008.
The economic shock starts in the 3rd quarter 2016 following the vote- we go into a mild downturn. But, we will have political uncertainty as it becomes clear that the Tories do not have a leader who can command a majority in the HoC. And then there is the uncertainty of the EU- this will be accompanied by businesses starting to announce that they will move out of the UK- then we move into a house price crash, continuing economic uncertainty and political uncertainty. And so it goes on. Maybe five years.
The IMF and the Treasury cannot say this because they would be accused of scaremongering.
Precisely. It's an absurd dollop of wishful thinking wankery to compare it to Nazi photos.
No it isn't. It's accurate. And it doesn't matter how many in the target market "get" the reference. Nobody's saying that the message is "let's take the same attitude as the Nazis". They are saying, quite accurately, that the message IS the same as the Nazi message on this issue, namely that foreign refugees from war are unwanted parasites.
I don't mind ad hominems in themselves, but I do mind when they're used to prop up an argument that can't be supported otherwise. So mind your language.
The Nazis heavily discouraged smoking too, because of the risks of lung cancer. I encountered someone recently who had configured his brain not to be able to take in such information. He scoffed "Yeah, they murdered millions of people in concentration camps and they were against smoking because it was harmful". Well that's accurate, actually. Don't shoot the messenger.
Behind one is some one using the murder of Jo Cox to further their political agenda, behind the other two are people saying it was the act of a mentally ill man.
I choose door one, the host opens door three to reveal raging Europhile leftie James O'Brien on LBC hosting a show about the effect that political campaigning, naming no names, had on yesterdays murder.
Do I switch?
Any door revealing James O'Brien should be slammed shut quick.
Corbyn won't mention the referendum one little bit - and I expect he will have agreement from Cameron to do the same.
Corbyn cannot and will not join any campaign with Cameron over the EU - whilst both advocate Remain it is for different reasons to different ends. However, both of them speaking about public service which entirely transcends party politics, that could be powerful.
I agree but you need to listen to the 'nuance' to determine if there is a message in there. The way our media obsess with a story this is going to headline for days and of course the funeral will be covered worldwide. I believe that the campaign from both sides is going to need to be very sensitive and leave will need to be very careful on immigration
stodge - I disagree. If someone dies that is sad but we then have a competitive by election. However I don't want to see the parliamentary arithmetic changing because someone has been murdered. Labour comfortably won the seat in the general election last year. I see no injustice in them holding it till the next election. If others want to stand that is up to them but if I was Tory, Lib Dem and if they have any sense Ukip, I would hold off.
The campaigns should restart Saturday (Much as I dislike both of them), though I fear an indefinite suspension is incoming.
Remain have said they are restarting tomorrow
Can we have a link for this pls - I haven't seen anything.
Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics
Nothing on their news page or twitter feed. Perhaps we'll see something later.
I am due to be organizing some Remain street work tomorrow, so it would be good to know in advance. Last I heard Labour had suspended campaigning for the weekend.
The campaigns should restart Saturday (Much as I dislike both of them), though I fear an indefinite suspension is incoming.
Remain have said they are restarting tomorrow
Can we have a link for this pls - I haven't seen anything.
Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics
Nothing on their news page or twitter feed. Perhaps we'll see something later.
I am due to be organizing some Remain street work tomorrow, so it would be good to know in advance. Last I heard Labour had suspended campaigning for the weekend.
I think it is likely that it will be suspended until monday
stodge - I disagree. If someone dies that is sad but we then have a competitive by election. However I don't want to see the parliamentary arithmetic changing because someone has been murdered. Labour comfortably won the seat in the general election last year. I see no injustice in them holding it till the next election. If others want to stand that is up to them but if I was Tory, Lib Dem and if they have any sense Ukip, I would hold off.
Agree completely with this - anyone standing to oppose labour is likely to get roasted
I think, on balance, it would be better if parties contested the Batley and Spen by-election as normal. The referendum campaign - not so sure.
In particular, I don't think the comparison with the IRA and either Ian Gow's murder or the Brighton Bomb are apt.
In those cases, the IRA was a well-established terrorist group; it was well known they were intent on committing those sort of acts if they could; and there's nothing anyone could really say or do at that time to stop that particular madness. The right response was one of defiance, which means business as usual.
Here, there's a feeling (which might turn out to be wrong) that everybody has got too heated and it just might have contributed in some small way so a horrifying act that nobody intended. Politicians have caught a glimpse of themselves in the mirror in the heat of the campaign, and it's fair to say many are shocked and embarrassed as well as terribly sad over the death of a nice person they knew.
This referendum debate has been had. In truth, we've been treading old ground for weeks, and the only thing new has been the ever increasing vehemence and bile. I can't help but feel let's vote on Thursday, and all just respect the outcome - not sure I can stomach more than that.
The campaigns should restart Saturday (Much as I dislike both of them), though I fear an indefinite suspension is incoming.
Remain have said they are restarting tomorrow
Can we have a link for this pls - I haven't seen anything.
Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics
Nothing on their news page or twitter feed. Perhaps we'll see something later.
I am due to be organizing some Remain street work tomorrow, so it would be good to know in advance. Last I heard Labour had suspended campaigning for the weekend.
I think it is likely that it will be suspended until monday
Seems the case to me. I think Andrew Neil may be going on the last Remain tweet which said campaigning suspended for the day.
I have a feeling the public might not be in the mood to be badged about the Referendum after yesterday's events, but I could be wrong.
Sky now following David Cameron's car going to the tribute with Jeremy Corbyn apparently in the next 20 minutes. Sky also expecting the campaigns to be suspended until monday
I've conceded defeat on the EU vote. What happened yesterday was terrible and any efforts by the LEAVE camp to get the campaign back on track are fraught with difficulty given the associations that have been made in the media.
I do think though that Cameron and Corbyn would be well served to speak alongside Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey, to make the point - and to me it is a very important point - that not all the Brexit campaigners are Britain First types.
The last thing we want (and the Tories certainly don't want it) is for Remain to win the vote and for Farage and people further to the extreme than him, calling foul for years.
That will do nothing for a better standard of debate.
Precisely. It's an absurd dollop of wishful thinking wankery to compare it to Nazi photos.
No it isn't. It's accurate. And it doesn't matter how many in the target market "get" the reference. Nobody's saying that the message is "let's take the same attitude as the Nazis". They are saying, quite accurately, that the message IS the same as the Nazi message on this issue, namely that foreign refugees from war are unwanted parasites.
I don't mind ad hominems in themselves, but I do mind when they're used to prop up an argument that can't be supported otherwise. So mind your language.
The Nazis heavily discouraged smoking too, because of the risks of lung cancer. I encountered someone recently who had configured his brain not to be able to take in such information. He scoffed "Yeah, they murdered millions of people in concentration camps and they were against smoking because it was harmful". Well that's accurate, actually. Don't shoot the messenger.
But presumably you wouldn't argue that anyone advertising (say) nicotine replacement products was a Nazi.
I am shown three doors. Behind one is some one using the murder of Jo Cox to further their political agenda, behind the other two are people saying it was the act of a mentally ill man. I choose door one, the host opens door three to reveal raging Europhile leftie James O'Brien on LBC hosting a show about the effect that political campaigning, naming no names, had on yesterdays murder. Do I switch?
This "raging Europhile leftie" James O'Brien is judged by the BBC to be an appropriate impartial person to also host Newsnight? Beyond belief. After "hosting a show about the effect that political campaigning, naming no names, had on yesterdays murder" in which he kept saying that it was right to speculate on the motives of the killer because if the killer had been a moslem that fact would have been stated early in the news reports..........
O'Brien is one of the most controversial and polemic LBC presenters. He's the Lefty version of David Starkey. I thought the Newsnight gig was a joke - its legit?
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
From the NYT- "'Sovereignty' is an argument used to lazily intellectualise an inherently racist response to the cosmopolitan nature of Britain and the death of "little England". When faced with 350 odd respected intellectuals from the sciences, academia, finance, arts, politics and business, brexiters chafe at the lack of depth on their side and give a grandiose argument about being a sovereign nation so that small minded voters feel less bad about their stupidity in the face of overwhelming reason. And there are others who still cannot accept the decline of the British empire and cannot digest their divinised place in the world - hence brexit" - Brexit it is then...
On-topic, we had 78% return on all postal votes in our area by Wednesday, so I would be buying turnout.
FYI Last year at the GE 86.0% of people who were sent a postal ballot pack voted. I would not therefore read 78% as being on the high side. You would need to compare to local GE.
Whilst its laudable to say the tragic death of Jo Cox shouldn't effect the EU debate I think this is sticking ones head in the sand. Its impossible given the background referendum to think that this won't play some part, I would suspect both campaigns might tone down the rhetoric but this does leave Vote Leave in a difficult position as to how it will deal with immigration in the coming days. Its simply unavoidable that some voters might connect the concentration on immigration as playing to a minority of people who are xenophobic and racist. Whether this is based on reality is irrelevant, some comments in here seem to be viewing voters as robots without emotions and expecting people to be completely rational.
I think the connection between the E.U and immigration has already been made,they need to say what will happen if we leave. the process ad nauseum.
I've conceded defeat on the EU vote. What happened yesterday was terrible and any efforts by the LEAVE camp to get the campaign back on track are fraught with difficulty given the associations that have been made in the media.
I do think though that Cameron and Corbyn would be well served to speak alongside Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey, to make the point - and to me it is a very important point - that not all the Brexit campaigners are Britain First types.
The last thing we want (and the Tories certainly don't want it) is for Remain to win the vote and for Farage and people further to the extreme than him, calling foul for years.
That will do nothing for a better standard of debate.
Unfortunately that now looks like the most likely outcome, a narrow Remain win and then a UKIP surge in a few weeks or months time
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
Just logged back in to agree with SeanT: this is nuts. Totally insane.
It's a tragedy but it must not and cannot be allowed to upset the vote. The campaign must resume at 9am tomorrow.
Parliament can be recalled after the referendum for tributes.
I don't think you can reasonably expect people to campaign when one of their close friends and colleagues has been murdered by a member of the public.
If someone close to me had died, let alone murdered, I would not want to go out. Would you?
Compare and contrast with the Tory party, after the Brighton bomb. LOTS of people were killed and injured, it was an assault on an entire government - and the conference went ahead the next day. Even as people bled in hospital.
That's British grit. That is democracy. That's we are meant to be.
Thatcher did her speech hours later, after someone just tried to kill her.
Have we really changed so much as a nation that conspicuous compassion must rule everything?
Stop for a minute and take a look at what you're saying. A young woman with 2 children and a husband has been murdered less than 24 hours ago. It really doesn't come across well. And you always seem like a sensible Leaver.
It's not about Leave/Remain. What has happened is a tragedy, people need to mourn and the murderer needs dealing with. However there are lots of could-be murderers, nutters and terrorists out there. If you send a message that you can end our democratic procedures during an election by murdering an MP then is that the message you want sending?
It's evil, it's tragic, but you can't put a target on the back of every MP next time and forever.
Ordinary citizens are brutally murdered every day under this lots watch. But you dont get normal civil life suspended for several days - even for public servants like policemen and soldiers putting themselves in harms way for the common good.
I fear this just reinforces the out of touch one rule for them one rule for us meme.
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
People die all the time and their friends have to get on with life. Democracy matters. The referendum matters. We can't put this on hold because of one event - no matter how awful it is for the people concerned. And if the MP does not feel like going out they have volunteers and others to face the public. We risk getting into ridiculous over-reaction. There are those who knew and worked with her who are obviously affected. There are many millions of others for which this is not personal. Tough as this may sound, a sense of proportion is needed.
Agreed.
I never replied to you before about the prospects for soft, centre left wing politics for 2020 with a Brexit vote. Not great I'm afraid. You see Brexit will lead to an economic shock, prolonged by years of political and economic uncertainty. Except this'll be worse than 2008 because we are in a much weaker fiscal position to deal with this kind of shock. .....
Tyson, thankyou for the reply. Just to be clear on the economic shock, when is this going to take place so that we can all watch out for it? Does it start in 2016 with the Brexit vote or is it delayed to 2017 or 2018 or does it only start in the year that we actually exit, such as 2020?
PS The Treasury central forecast was for a milder recession much milder than 2008.
The economic shock starts in the 3rd quarter 2016 following the vote- we go into a mild downturn. But, we will have political uncertainty as it becomes clear that the Tories do not have a leader who can command a majority in the HoC. And then there is the uncertainty of the EU- this will be accompanied by businesses starting to announce that they will move out of the UK- then we move into a house price crash, continuing economic uncertainty and political uncertainty. And so it goes on. Maybe five years.
The IMF and the Treasury cannot say this because they would be accused of scaremongering.
Just read through the last 100 comments. Urgh. Is this really how we debate the day after such a tragedy?
In particular, I feel the joint visit would be inappropriate for anyone other than the PM and Labour Leader. They are both in their substantive roles, and to suggest it should be balanced with Leavers just highlights the politics and brings the referendum into it.
I'd be relaxed about the Lib Dems not contesting a by-election. It must feel very strange to campaign in such circumstances.
Whoever is running the REMAIN campaign needs to be sacked, now, and replaced by someone with a sense of the public mood, and an ability to fire up emotions.
I saw this earlier and based on the lacklustre LabourIN campaign so far when they suspended their campaigning in February, March and April, would anyone notice?
Tamara Cohen ✔ tamcohen Labour expected to suspend campaigning all weekend. MPs hoping for a recall of Parliament on Monday to pay tribute to #JoCoxMP
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
Just logged back in to agree with SeanT: this is nuts. Totally insane.
It's a tragedy but it must not and cannot be allowed to upset the vote. The campaign must resume at 9am tomorrow.
Parliament can be recalled after the referendum for tributes.
I don't think you can reasonably expect people to campaign when one of their close friends and colleagues has been murdered by a member of the public.
If someone close to me had died, let alone murdered, I would not want to go out. Would you?
Compare and contrast with the Tory party, after the Brighton bomb. LOTS of people were killed and injured, it was an assault on an entire government - and the conference went ahead the next day. Even as people bled in hospital.
That's British grit. That is democracy. That's what we are meant to be.
One of my favourite anecdotes about that whole ghastly affair was that M&S opened early so that those who'd only the nightwear they stood in could buy suits/dresses for the conference.
Part of the British mythos is our coolness under fire, as parodied in the dining scene in 'Carry on up the Khyber' (displaying the full might of my intellectual credentials here ).
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/ James Kelly is sounding very excited by the prospect of Brexit - I reckon he might have a cheeky "leave" vote in the privacy of the polling booth !
The campaigns should restart Saturday (Much as I dislike both of them), though I fear an indefinite suspension is incoming.
Remain have said they are restarting tomorrow
Can we have a link for this pls - I haven't seen anything.
Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics
Nothing on their news page or twitter feed. Perhaps we'll see something later.
I am due to be organizing some Remain street work tomorrow, so it would be good to know in advance. Last I heard Labour had suspended campaigning for the weekend.
I think it is likely that it will be suspended until monday
Seems the case to me. I think Andrew Neil may be going on the last Remain tweet which said campaigning suspended for the day.
I have a feeling the public might not be in the mood to be badged about the Referendum after yesterday's events, but I could be wrong.
It will be monday. Neither side will risk the abuse that would come from being the first one to restart campaigning...
Could win it for Leave if PB is in any way representative.
Will win it for leave for the same reason as her on the tv screens planning to intefrere won it for thee tories. Enough to make you want to sing obscure verses of the national anthem
Democracy could, should and must go on. This is an open invitation to psychos and nutters: kill an MP and you can subvert politics and stop elections.
If one of your friends has been murdered would you really want or feel able to face the public? This is personal for a lot of people.
Just logged back in to agree with SeanT: this is nuts. Totally insane.
It's a tragedy but it must not and cannot be allowed to upset the vote. The campaign must resume at 9am tomorrow.
Parliament can be recalled after the referendum for tributes.
I don't think you can reasonably expect people to campaign when one of their close friends and colleagues has been murdered by a member of the public.
If someone close to me had died, let alone murdered, I would not want to go out. Would you?
Compare and contrast with the Tory party, after the Brighton bomb. LOTS of people were killed and injured, it was an assault on an entire government - and the conference went ahead the next day. Even as people bled in hospital.
That's British grit. That is democracy. That's what we are meant to be.
One of my favourite anecdotes about that whole ghastly affair was that M&S opened early so that those who'd only the nightwear they stood in could buy suits/dresses for the conference.
Part of the British mythos is our coolness under fire, as parodied in the dining scene in 'Carry on up the Khyber' (displaying the full might of my intellectual credentials here ).
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Wishful thinking there. Nicola has no standing whatsoever in Brussles, they won't give her the time of day. This was made clear when the ECJ ruled on Scottish tuition fees being outside their jurisdiction, and an internal matter for a member state.
I saw this earlier and based on the lacklustre LabourIN campaign so far when they suspended their campaigning in February, March and April, would anyone notice?
Tamara Cohen ✔ tamcohen Labour expected to suspend campaigning all weekend. MPs hoping for a recall of Parliament on Monday to pay tribute to #JoCoxMP
Given the massive disconnect between our supporters (Leave) and the party (Remain) the best thing we could do is to respectfully pull up our tent and go home.
I saw this earlier and based on the lacklustre LabourIN campaign so far when they suspended their campaigning in February, March and April, would anyone notice?
Tamara Cohen ✔ tamcohen Labour expected to suspend campaigning all weekend. MPs hoping for a recall of Parliament on Monday to pay tribute to #JoCoxMP
Not exactly in the spirit of richmond golf clubs 1940 rules
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Wishful thinking there. Nicola has no standing whatsoever in Brussles, they won't give her the time of day. This was made clear when the ECJ ruled on Scottish tuition fees being outside their jurisdiction, and an internal matter for a member state.
I would expect the EU stance toward Scotland to be quite different in the scenario anticipated. It is in their interest to both to try and rescue something from Brexit and to make life politically difficult for Boris and co, after all.
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Wishful thinking there. Nicola has no standing whatsoever in Brussles, they won't give her the time of day. This was made clear when the ECJ ruled on Scottish tuition fees being outside their jurisdiction, and an internal matter for a member state.
There are several countries that do not want to encourage parts of their country to do this with the EU. Starting with Spain!
Others can argue whether this might be good or bad for Leave or Remain
It needs to be said that the rhetoric has been overblown and a little more moderation is needed. Not sure that Merkel's the right person to say it though, and if she wanted to make the point she'd be much better doing it privately to the leaders of the two camps.
By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.
Except that it looks exactly like Nazi propaganda.
It also looks exactly like Labour isn't working. Which is more famous and more likely for it to be based on?
Why would a poster using an actual photo & playing on fears of (im)migrants be based on a staged poster of people queuing for the dole office? 2 entirely different things imo.
Because the staged poster is arguably the single most famous and most successful poster of all time in British politics. As a result it is also the most copied and parodied.
It was a vile tasteless hateful racist poster. But the notion it was copied from an obscure image we'd never seen before rather than the most famous poster of all time is a leap.
'We have a vile, tasteless, hateful, racist poster that strongly resembles vile, tasteless, hateful, racist Nazi propaganda, but it also slightly resembles a party political election poster from 1979, so it's ok.'
Well, it's a theory.
Might I posit that most people do not possess any expertise or familiarity with Nazi propaganda? The only wartime propaganda I recall seeing in any books was either British or Soviet (mainly because British propaganda is still quite funny, and Soviet propaganda is ART). I'm writing as a WW2 buff.
I asked my 23 year old daughter what she thought. She didn't get any reference to anything. She just said 'I don't get it.'. Which in its own way means that Farage has failed.
If national campaigning is suspended, does that mean no leafleting, no canvassing, no anything by anyone? I don't want to drop a bollock over the weekend.
Question for the legal eagles. If and when someone is charged with Ms Cox's murder, what does that do to the ability of media (in the UK at least) to cover events?
stodge - I disagree. If someone dies that is sad but we then have a competitive by election. However I don't want to see the parliamentary arithmetic changing because someone has been murdered. Labour comfortably won the seat in the general election last year. I see no injustice in them holding it till the next election. If others want to stand that is up to them but if I was Tory, Lib Dem and if they have any sense Ukip, I would hold off.
This exactly. I don't think 1990 should have been contested but that's too late to change, and no reason it has to be a precedent. A death of natural causes should be contested, but murdering someone shouldn't be a route to change parliamentary arithmetic. It would send a potentially dangerous message.
In any case, Labour will romp home here anyway so it's a waste of money and potentially bad publicity for the other parties. The average man in the street will appreciate the solidarity gesture far more than the nuanced arguments presented to the contrary here.
I saw this earlier and based on the lacklustre LabourIN campaign so far when they suspended their campaigning in February, March and April, would anyone notice?
Tamara Cohen ✔ tamcohen Labour expected to suspend campaigning all weekend. MPs hoping for a recall of Parliament on Monday to pay tribute to #JoCoxMP
Given the massive disconnect between our supporters (Leave) and the party (Remain) the best thing we could do is to respectfully pull up our tent and go home.
Which maybe why Corbyn has played this very smart? His only problem (as ever) are the blairites europhile MPs but he has the momentum people to threaten/deselect them in a few years time.
Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. Democracy makes we the people sovereign, not our MPs. While this event is clearly a tragedy, the personal feelings of our elected representatives is not as important as the referendum which will take place next Thursday. Nobody should be forced to campaign if they do not wish to, but it is totally wrong to force that suspension on others for an extended period. It reveals yet again the narcissism of our political classes that the loss of one of their own, however tragic, should outweigh the magnitude of next week's vote.
The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.
If national campaigning is suspended, does that mean no leafleting, no canvassing, no anything by anyone? I don't want to drop a bollock over the weekend.
That was the message last night from VoteLEAVE. However it seems that it all restarts tomorrow.
I think many on here are looking a bit too much into this tragic event and the outcome of the referendum. We're all very political so it is only natural but I can't see it moving much.
I could be wrong with the next polls but we shall see.
I have to say, for the first time I am thinking Trump will actually get thrashed in November. And I am pleased by the prospect.
Why the sudden change from thinking all outcomes possible from a Trump landslide to a Hillary one? Because, following his comments on the judge, even I (as a non-voter but a pretty strong anyone but Hillary believer) now think she is preferable to Trump. Any hope I had that securing the nomination and, ultimately the presidency, would see him shift from provocateur to responsible leader/manager have been dashed.
The man is simply dangerous. Dangerous in that he could start wars. Dangerous in what he could do to democracy and the separation of powers. He must be stopped at all costs.
And in two post-Orlando swing-state polls (IA & VA) Trump narrows the gap...
On-topic, we had 78% return on all postal votes in our area by Wednesday, so I would be buying turnout.
Postal turnout is always a lot higher than on the day, no?
In the old days, when you had to sign your life away (and get a doctor or some such to countersign), PV turnout was typically close to 90%. Since they became available on demand, turnouts have fallen - below 75% is not untypical for a local election. Where political parties pressure their supporters to sign up for perpetual postal voting, it can be lower still, since someone may have applied for a GE postal vote and not be interested in using it for other votes that come along. But still a reasonable differential on turnout at the polling station.
Nevertheless given the publicity around the Referendum, I'd expect PV turnout to be higher than usual, and still higher than polling station turnout, but not by a very huge margin.
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Wishful thinking there. Nicola has no standing whatsoever in Brussles, they won't give her the time of day. This was made clear when the ECJ ruled on Scottish tuition fees being outside their jurisdiction, and an internal matter for a member state.
It would also legitimise talking to secessionist regional leaders in other EU member states. I doubt that's a precedent that those MSs would be comfortable with.
Question for the legal eagles. If and when someone is charged with Ms Cox's murder, what does that do to the ability of media (in the UK at least) to cover events?
not a leagal eagle but they cant publish anything that is detrimental to him =having a fair trial - he has to be charged in the next couple of hours (hence the 24hrs in Police custody )
Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. Democracy makes we the people sovereign, not our MPs. While this event is clearly a tragedy, the personal feelings of our elected representatives is not as important as the referendum which will take place next Thursday. Nobody should be forced to campaign if they do not wish to, but it is totally wrong to force that suspension on others for an extended period. It reveals yet again the narcissism of our political classes that the loss of one of their own, however tragic, should outweigh the magnitude of next week's vote.
The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.
I see where you're coming from, but I think suspending them for today is fine. realistically we are losing only one day, and they should restart tomorrow. In any case I think it could do more harm than good for the canvassers/cause. I imagine a very frosty reaction on the average doorstep, people will say it's not the time.
Question for the legal eagles. If and when someone is charged with Ms Cox's murder, what does that do to the ability of media (in the UK at least) to cover events?
not a leagal eagle but they cant publish anything that is detrimental to him =having a fair trial - he has to be charged in the next couple of hours (hence the 24hrs in Police custody )
My guess is that period will be extended while they have him fully assessed.
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Of course it's bollocks. Sturgeon would have to solve the currency question, which would be even more insoluble after Brexit. She'd also risk a frontier at Berwick and tariffs on Scottish goods in England. Economic catastrophe. Plus Scotland would be bankrupt.
I very much doubt she would even call a referendum. Too risky.
HOWEVER as low dirty politics it works for REMAIN, very well.
There should be posters of a smashed UK, all over England. A broken Britain, broken by Brexit. Etc. An emotional appeal to Brits to hang together.
Whoever is running the REMAIN campaign needs to be sacked, now, and replaced by someone with a sense of the public mood, and an ability to fire up emotions.
Please sean just stop,the way your sounding since leave have taken leads in the polls,your going to bottle it aren't you ?
I didn't believe posters on here that said you will vote remain at the polling booths, I do now unless remain show big leads in the final days that will give a freeby to vote out.
I really hope and pray that Cameron and Corbyn do not politicize, either explicitly or implicitly, this murder in anyway. Even talking about the tone of the debate, whether you think that is right or wrong is besides the point, would be political. Those inferences coming from those two together is very dodgy and could have profound implications for this country. Very scared now.
I think it's a terrible idea. It's got so many potholes it can fall into - even with the very best of intentions.
I'd have thought in the current political enviroment that Boris Johnson and David Cameron should be holding a joint presser. The referendum outweighs party politics by a factor of a bout a billion at the moment.
Well indeed. Having two from Remain just asks for it to be misinterpreted.
Oh dear - well that's the low point of the day reached so far.
It would be wrong to say something good could come out of yesterday's tragedy but if the campaigns were both renewed with less hyperbole, less ad hominem and more politeness on both sides that would be a good thing. This is something perfectly rational people can disagree on and both sides should approach the argument recognising this.
For someone who was hardly known outside the commons chamber, the Remainians are now trying to Dianafy Jo Cox, and present her as a saint that all must bow down to.
To some degree they are succeeding, egged on by those Remain stalwarts on the BBC and Sky News; together with the Tory and Labour elite.
I wonder if all the people murdered this week in the UK will also be remembered and diefied, I bet not.
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Wishful thinking there. Nicola has no standing whatsoever in Brussles, they won't give her the time of day. This was made clear when the ECJ ruled on Scottish tuition fees being outside their jurisdiction, and an internal matter for a member state.
Much of the Common Fisheries Policy collapses without Scottish waters within the EU. Given the continues importance of fishing, even Spain might demonstrate a significant change of position over Scottish Independence.
For someone who was hardly known outside the commons chamber, the Remainians are now trying to Dianafy Jo Cox, and present her as a saint that all must bow down to.
To some degree they are succeeding, egged on by those Remain stalwarts on the BBC and Sky News; together with the Tory and Labour elite.
I wonder if all the people murdered this week in the UK will also be remembered and diefied, I bet not.
For someone who was hardly known outside the commons chamber, the Remainians are now trying to Dianafy Jo Cox, and present her as a saint that all must bow down to.
To some degree they are succeeding, egged on by those Remain stalwarts on the BBC and Sky News; together with the Tory and Labour elite.
I wonder if all the people murdered this week in the UK will also be remembered and diefied, I bet not.
People in a public office like police and MPs will get more public attention.
Comments
Again, if anyone personally feels they can't or don't want to, I respect that too.
I expect the Lib Dems will pull out too.
It's a tragic, incomprehensible, rare event.
And life must go on.
The IMF and the Treasury cannot say this because they would be accused of scaremongering.
I don't mind ad hominems in themselves, but I do mind when they're used to prop up an argument that can't be supported otherwise. So mind your language.
The Nazis heavily discouraged smoking too, because of the risks of lung cancer. I encountered someone recently who had configured his brain not to be able to take in such information. He scoffed "Yeah, they murdered millions of people in concentration camps and they were against smoking because it was harmful". Well that's accurate, actually. Don't shoot the messenger.
I am due to be organizing some Remain street work tomorrow, so it would be good to know in advance. Last I heard Labour had suspended campaigning for the weekend.
In particular, I don't think the comparison with the IRA and either Ian Gow's murder or the Brighton Bomb are apt.
In those cases, the IRA was a well-established terrorist group; it was well known they were intent on committing those sort of acts if they could; and there's nothing anyone could really say or do at that time to stop that particular madness. The right response was one of defiance, which means business as usual.
Here, there's a feeling (which might turn out to be wrong) that everybody has got too heated and it just might have contributed in some small way so a horrifying act that nobody intended. Politicians have caught a glimpse of themselves in the mirror in the heat of the campaign, and it's fair to say many are shocked and embarrassed as well as terribly sad over the death of a nice person they knew.
This referendum debate has been had. In truth, we've been treading old ground for weeks, and the only thing new has been the ever increasing vehemence and bile. I can't help but feel let's vote on Thursday, and all just respect the outcome - not sure I can stomach more than that.
I have a feeling the public might not be in the mood to be badged about the Referendum after yesterday's events, but I could be wrong.
I do think though that Cameron and Corbyn would be well served to speak alongside Gisela Stuart and Kate Hoey, to make the point - and to me it is a very important point - that not all the Brexit campaigners are Britain First types.
The last thing we want (and the Tories certainly don't want it) is for Remain to win the vote and for Farage and people further to the extreme than him, calling foul for years.
That will do nothing for a better standard of debate.
That would be quite a smart approach on her part, and would make life incredibly difficult for the Westminster Brexit negotiators having to deal with Brussels at the same time.
Hmm.
I fear this just reinforces the out of touch one rule for them one rule for us meme.
Others can argue whether this might be good or bad for Leave or Remain
In particular, I feel the joint visit would be inappropriate for anyone other than the PM and Labour Leader. They are both in their substantive roles, and to suggest it should be balanced with Leavers just highlights the politics and brings the referendum into it.
I'd be relaxed about the Lib Dems not contesting a by-election. It must feel very strange to campaign in such circumstances.
Tamara Cohen ✔ tamcohen
Labour expected to suspend campaigning all weekend. MPs hoping for a recall of Parliament on Monday to pay tribute to #JoCoxMP
Shades of Lord Uxbridge's leg (for the uninitiated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Uxbridge's_leg).
Part of the British mythos is our coolness under fire, as parodied in the dining scene in 'Carry on up the Khyber' (displaying the full might of my intellectual credentials here
We are today hearing just non-English voices campaigning for REMAIN. That of course has failed in the past.
b) "Little Englanders" might see it as a positive.
By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
I asked my 23 year old daughter what she thought. She didn't get any reference to anything. She just said 'I don't get it.'. Which in its own way means that Farage has failed.
In any case, Labour will romp home here anyway so it's a waste of money and potentially bad publicity for the other parties. The average man in the street will appreciate the solidarity gesture far more than the nuanced arguments presented to the contrary here.
The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.
Kyle was amazing - victims of terror attacks who'd survived the Orlando, Tunisian and Tube horrors.
I could be wrong with the next polls but we shall see.
Nevertheless given the publicity around the Referendum, I'd expect PV turnout to be higher than usual, and still higher than polling station turnout, but not by a very huge margin.
I didn't believe posters on here that said you will vote remain at the polling booths, I do now unless remain show big leads in the final days that will give a freeby to vote out.
To some degree they are succeeding, egged on by those Remain stalwarts on the BBC and Sky News; together with the Tory and Labour elite.
I wonder if all the people murdered this week in the UK will also be remembered and diefied, I bet not.
People in a public office like police and MPs will get more public attention.