Disappointed to see mental health getting lined up as the fallback already by many newspapers. As many have said on here, we should be waiting for more evidence before speculating on whether there was a political motive, likewise we shouldn't jump straight to mental health as the culprit. Not to mention that that vague term lumps a vast disparate group under its umbrella.
Where is the boundary between mental instability and religious or political fanaticism though ?
Mental illness is a very broad term, as it has to be - obviously the potential illness this individual (Or the Orlando shooter) may be suffering from is as different as ebola is to a broken wrist if say someone was to be described as having a 'physical illness'.
Nuance is very tricky, and mental health has an awful stigma attached to it in this country - the brain is an almost infinitely complex organ it's range of conditions must (to my mind) be vast yet because we don't understand it that well they're boiled down to a few common ones with a nasty stigma attached to depression in particular.
Even when all the facts emerge, precisely what lead that individual to take his own horrendous course of action may well be truly unknown. It will be for the courts (relying on the evidence of pychiatrists) to decide whether he serves his inevitable sentence in a secure psychiatric hospital or a secure prison.
In this case, as mentioned by the others, it's not unreasonable to expect the media to act by a standard they have previously set. In a number of cases, for instance, religiously motivated terrorists have been linked with a history of mental health issues ; this has rarely been the media's prominent focus is those cases, however.
The media exist to sell their product.
Indeed. Was it Murdoch who told his newspaper editors that they were in the entertainment business not the news business?
The markets are much brighter this morning with the FTSE 100 Index breaking through the 6000 barrier, up around 55 points in the first few minutes of trading.
Gosh, its almost as if the current state of the market and good polls for leave (such as Ipsos Mori only yesterday) are not connected after all. Who'd have thought?
After making a big fuss about a few weeks low in the £, and *breaking the psychological 6000* barrier - Sky has has been squirming for three days since it all bounced back up. I honestly don't know why they bother - they're not even attempting to present the data in context.
Good result for Labour in Tooting by election last night in difficult circumstances increasing their majority from 2800 to 6300, Greens and LDs third and fourth respectively with UKIP failing to advance from fifth
The almost complete absence of progress for UKIP despite the apparent success of Leave is indeed curious. It was a good result for Labour.
I don't really get the UKIP angle here. With a referendum due next week, I'd expect most voters to choose either Labour or Tory. UKIP right now are in limbo - either about to achieve their core aim or hit an almighty wall of a Remain win.
A narrow Remain win now looks more likely, this could be a signal however ironically a narrow Remain win is the best result for UKIP as a party if not for its core ideology
The catalyst for the SNP Westminster landslide was the Scottish Referendum. The catalyst for UKIP becoming a major party would be a close Remain win - now its been made obvious by many labour MPs that their views are not those of their electorate..
The SNP were already a major party at Holyrood though and had been in government for years, and they had become a very efficient, professional outfit. UKIP is the opposite of all that.
From that description, one interpretation is that Jo Cox intervened in a dispute between others. Other interpretations are also possible.
The other possibly significant thing is that she was not attacked in her surgery. The attack took place outside in the street, presumably as she was walking to the surgery.
Yes, I noted that as well. The reports seemed to suggest the surgery had/was already taking place, and the MP came out onto the street because of a commotion. Could be the target was someone else, a caseworker or councillor or someone. We just don't know at this point.
The markets are much brighter this morning with the FTSE 100 Index breaking through the 6000 barrier, up around 55 points in the first few minutes of trading.
Gosh, its almost as if the current state of the market and good polls for leave (such as Ipsos Mori only yesterday) are not connected after all. Who'd have thought?
Actually, I think the markets are reacting to the events of yesterday which they think has probably killed off the chance of a Leave vote.
I've been Googling ' Existential '. It seems I may not know what it means. I said the Referendum was ' existential ' because for many it's about how the foundation of how interpret reality. Ie Draw Bridge up/Draw Bridge down or where they are on Maslow's Heirarchy. A few web definitions would allow me to slip this in at the edge but the Dictionary ones suggest not. I stand corrected Casino Royale !
I am not sure how much of an impact the tragic events which took place yesterday will have on the referendum. 1 person I have spoken to was completely unaware it happened and 3 other people mentioned how he was mentally ill.
I guess today is a day for everyone to decide that the murder of Jo Cox stands for whatever they want it to stand for. Pity.
A virtual punch-up at the virtual wake is unedifying, to say the least.
I woukd prefer it not be taken to stand for anything, since even if transpires it did we won't know that for sure for awhile, but as with yesterday I accept politicising recent tragedies, while usually a bad idea, can sometimes add to a debate in a meaningful way - however, people really should consider very carefully if that is what their contributions are doing, and even more than usual try not to characterise minority actions from supporters of one dude as representative.
Frankly, I'm surprised that as many as 7 out of 10 voters, myself included, will take or have already taken the trouble to vote in next week's EU referendum. It is utterly inconceivable that our individual vote will have the remotest impact on the final result, bearing in mind that upwards of 32,000,000 of us are expected to exercise our democratic right by entering a cross on the ballot slip. In the case of Parliamentary constituency elections, its just possible, in a small minority of seats, that our individual vote along with others, might result in the excitement of a recount, but there's no chance whatsoever of that happening next week.
As I pointed out to SeanT yesterday the sheer number of votes in this election mean you can vote with you conscious. Your vote is more to legitimize the process than to influence the result..
I had this exact conversation yesterday with a couple of guys. They'd been talking about safe seats, and knew this time that every vote counted. I think it's a message that may need reinforcing though.
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
I've been Googling ' Existential '. It seems I may not know what it means. I said the Referendum was ' existential ' because for many it's about how the foundation of how interpret reality. Ie Draw Bridge up/Draw Bridge down or where they are on Maslow's Heirarchy. A few web definitions would allow me to slip this in at the edge but the Dictionary ones suggest not. I stand corrected Casino Royale !
No probs ;-)
It probably is for the europhile cause within the UK, to be fair.
If you had asked me a couple weeks ago, I would have said slightly lower than GE level turnout, at maybe 62% for example. Now, i'm revising that upwards to say it will be closer to (but probably not higher than) 70%. maybe 68%. The young will vote higher than we think in this referendum (i'm referring to the studenty liberal types who let Clegg down in 2010 by not turning out on the day). Likewise a higher turnout than normal from working class voters. Typically high turn out form wealthy and old voters, but i doubt there's much room for increase in those groups.
it's anecdotal, but interesting to see how my parents have split on this issue. Both fairly typical tory voters from similar backgrounds and obviously living in similar circumstances (not members, don't talk much about politics but will always vote, generally further right wing on most issues). My dad has been driven more and more leave by the campaign, and my mum more and more remain. i've noticed the same pattern amongst men and women in the family generally, and would not be surprised if a majority of men vote leave and a majority of women remain. I think remain could do well to focus strategies on women in this last week.
Moses, I don’t like being accused of making inaccurate statements when I’m reporting my own experience. It may well be that the boot can be on the other foot on occasion. But I’m reporting what was said to me, in the presence of another. Unless you were in the market where I was you cannot claim that I was inaccurate.
Do you collect for the Salvation Army, though? That was the only other person consistently near us!
However I agree with your second paragraph and the sentiment in your final sentence.
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Well if we do, we do. We are a single polity. That is what the last one was about.
Indeed. Honestly though if I thought it woukd secure Scotland in the uk long term I'd have no qualms voting remain.
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Assuming identical turnout Scotland needs something like 62/38 to shift the national score by 1 percent I think.
Frankly, I'm surprised that as many as 7 out of 10 voters, myself included, will take or have already taken the trouble to vote in next week's EU referendum. It is utterly inconceivable that our individual vote will have the remotest impact on the final result, bearing in mind that upwards of 32,000,000 of us are expected to exercise our democratic right by entering a cross on the ballot slip. In the case of Parliamentary constituency elections, its just possible, in a small minority of seats, that our individual vote along with others, might result in the excitement of a recount, but there's no chance whatsoever of that happening next week.
As I pointed out to SeanT yesterday the sheer number of votes in this election mean you can vote with you conscious. Your vote is more to legitimize the process than to influence the result..
Agreed and for this reason, although I always vote, unlike some PBers I really couldn't agonise over which way for days on end. How can it really be such a big deal from an individual's perspective?
I did agonize for a while simply because I couldn't make my mind up. Then I saw a particular set of economic data and made my mind up...
I signed up to help the Stronger In campaign with telephone canvassing and data entry. However I found the telephone canvassing was to encourage known supporters to help with street stalls and leafleting rather than identify supporters for GOTV. I think the former is much more important than the latter and I have stopped helping. I have been asked to help on the day by encouraging people to go out and vote. But I'll only do that if there is data on Remain supporters. I've got a bad feeling about the Remain ground game compared to the Leave ground game. And it is going to be critical.
Frankly, I'm surprised that as many as 7 out of 10 voters, myself included, will take or have already taken the trouble to vote in next week's EU referendum. It is utterly inconceivable that our individual vote will have the remotest impact on the final result, bearing in mind that upwards of 32,000,000 of us are expected to exercise our democratic right by entering a cross on the ballot slip. In the case of Parliamentary constituency elections, its just possible, in a small minority of seats, that our individual vote along with others, might result in the excitement of a recount, but there's no chance whatsoever of that happening next week.
As I pointed out to SeanT yesterday the sheer number of votes in this election mean you can vote with you conscious. Your vote is more to legitimize the process than to influence the result..
I had this exact conversation yesterday with a couple of guys. They'd been talking about safe seats, and knew this time that every vote counted. I think it's a message that may need reinforcing though.
It depends whether the MSM try to make it an issue over the weekend when they interview leaders of the leave campaign. They will probably try and make a linkage which could then hurt them.
It is not existential. The existence of the United Kingdom is not at stake.
Whilst speculation, it is likely that the down-the-road consequences of Brexit could be profound, including possibly for the future of the UK in relation to both Scotland and NI. If you push the first domino you don't escape any responsibility for all the others that topple over.
I think a Leave vote will strengthen the United Kingdom.
Even if you are right, it is clearly the case that the payoff you hope for is some years down the line, and assumes that the short-run crises that almost everyone anticipates - to politics, the economy, and the markets - can be navigated successfully, both in the UK and EU - at a time when both the political world and the real state of the western indebted economies are exceptionally fragile.
IMHO your conclusion takes a lot for granted.
I suspect it's far more likely that a leave vote would descend into chaos, as the lack of a plan or any sort of shared agenda becomes apparent, people start to realise the compromises involved in any sort of new settlement outside the EU, and a split emerges between the pragmatic Tory outers and the true guardians of the flame in UKIP. Particularly if the winners try to pursue the type of de-regulating neo-lib agenda that no-one actually wants. Add in a Tory leadership election and hence no PM, the potential repercussions in Scotland and NI, falling markets, knock-on effects in other EU countries, immigration doesn't stop, a few far right successes across Europe and a few big company announcements about changes of plan post-Brexit, and it isn't hard to see that Mystic Dave may actually have a point...?
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Assuming identical turnout Scotland needs something like 62/38 to shift the national score by 1 percent I think.
So basically if rUK is 52/48 leave then Scotland would have to be heroically in favour of the EU t change the result.
I guess today is a day for everyone to decide that the murder of Jo Cox stands for whatever they want it to stand for. Pity.
A virtual punch-up at the virtual wake is unedifying, to say the least.
Indeed. Sometimes - and it's hard for us to accept this - events don't stand for anything, don't have any meaning. They just are.
Even people who are not religious try to find some cosmic significance in their lives. We cannot bear too much reality so we tell stories about ourselves.
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Assuming identical turnout Scotland needs something like 62/38 to shift the national score by 1 percent I think.
How does TSE get to a 1.2% boost from NI + Gibraltar + Ex pats then ?
On a different topic, the sun has a tit bit about the person who accused sir cliff...a convicted serial rapist was making the allegations . Like two guys the BBC believed over the MP vip ring / mcapline, another very troubled person who is behind the claims.
What I feel uncomfortable about here appears to be the unquestioning belief by the police in whatever the claimants tell them. I use claimant carefully here because the word victim already sets a tone (and indeed almost a determination) of guilt/innocence which is not for the police to decide (thank god given their approach). I guess that it's the classic overreaction to their previous approach but if one is making serious claims about another person, they should be tested and certainly tested before arrival with BBC cameras in tow. There are too many people out there who take the "no smoke without fire" view of the world.
I suppose what I really mean is that I believe in the rule of law. I'm not very happy with a police force which thinks rule of law is a one way street.
Wasn't new guidance issued on such matters to the effect that police should act as though very claim is true, although they need to take them seriously? As there was a suggestion they were going overboard in attempts to not be dismissive?
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
Jo Cox MP By johnredwood | Published: June 17, 2016
I was shocked and appalled by the tragic murder of Jo Cox yesterday. I send my condolences to her family. We have all lost a great lady who worked hard for her constituents and our wider democracy. Posted in Uncategorized | 6 Comments
The markets are much brighter this morning with the FTSE 100 Index breaking through the 6000 barrier, up around 55 points in the first few minutes of trading.
Gosh, its almost as if the current state of the market and good polls for leave (such as Ipsos Mori only yesterday) are not connected after all. Who'd have thought?
Actually, I think the markets are reacting to the events of yesterday which they think has probably killed off the chance of a Leave vote.
The markets are all over the place currently as no-one knows what is going to happen. However, the pattern seems to be that if Brexit looks more likely the markets react negatively, if it looks less likely they go up again. They are, of course, completely amoral and there was a very big and rapid upward spike after the killing was announced yesterday.
More generally, if you watch the business-focused TV channels (Bloomberg etc) Brexit and its impact are discussed constantly and in-depth, with market movements in all parts of the world being attributed to it. The reason is simple: if Brexit triggers an adverse reaction among investors and consumers in Europe as a whole that will have a major knock-on effect in major exporting countries such as Japan and China because the potential sales of their goods and services will also be affected. That, in turn, will have a ripple effect elsewhere.
Of course, there are always ups and downs - but this is one over which no-one has any control. This is the UK doing something to the rest of the world while the rest of the world looks on. And, as Leavers note, we are the world's fifth largest economy. It may turn out to be worth it in the long-term, but markets hate uncertainty and in the short and medium term can really only see downsides to us voting Leave.
For us in the UK any decrease in the government tax take that Brexit causes - whether that be by slower sales at home, reduced exports or decreased investment - will have a direct and negative impact on government income. That will mean higher taxes and/or further spending cuts.
It had batter turn out to be worth it because a lot of people are going to be very discomfited.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
One would hope that, in this case, his insanity or otherwise is the difference between spending the rest of his life in prison, and spending the rest of his life in Broadmoor. Either way, he's never going to be a free man again.
I'm not sure how much difference it'll make to the result - I remember during the Paris atrocities UKIP came in alot on the exchanges in the Oldham BE. Alot of people including some very smart cookies thought it would massively boost UKIP but in the end Labour ran up a huge score there. Now this isn't the same (It is actually here as opposed to being 1000 miles away) but Oldham was nice in the sense that the terrorists there didn't seem to change anyone's vote here !
I'm not expecting it to change much of anything, bar giving the campaigners a short rest. Many have looked knackered.
To be honest, this reminds me very much of the Stephen Timms attack - shocking on a WTF level, but that's about it. She's not my MP, I'd not heard of her until yesterday, it looks like a tragic and horrible one-off by someone who's mentally ill.
Why would this change my vote? Or my concerns about the UK's future governance?
I've been really quite revolted by those who've sought to weaponise her death for their own ends. Twitter was beyond awful - and far too many professional commentators have joined in. The lady was barely cold.
It is not existential. The existence of the United Kingdom is not at stake.
Whilst speculation, it is likely that the down-the-road consequences of Brexit could be profound, including possibly for the future of the UK in relation to both Scotland and NI. If you push the first domino you don't escape any responsibility for all the others that topple over.
I t
Even if you are right, it is clearly the case that the payoff you hope for is some years down the line, and assumes that the short-run crises that almost everyone anticipates - to politics, the economy, and the markets - can be navigated successfully, both in the UK and EU - at a time when both the political world and the real state of the western indebted economies are exceptionally fragile.
IMHO your conclusion takes a lot for granted.
I suspect it's far more likely that a leave vote would descend into chaos, as the lack of a plan or any sort of shared agenda becomes apparent, people start to realise the compromises involved in any sort of new settlement outside the EU, and a split emerges between the pragmatic Tory outers and the true guardians of the flame in UKIP. Particularly if the winners try to pursue the type of de-regulating neo-lib agenda that no-one actually wants. Add in a Tory leadership election and hence no PM, the potential repercussions in Scotland and NI, falling markets, knock-on effects in other EU countries, a few far right successes across Europe and a few big company announcements about changes of plan post-Brexit, and it isn't hard to see that Mystic Dave may actually have a point...?
Just a lot of the usual fear and Remain attack lines.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Gove has promised the Scottish Parliament more powers over agriculture, fisheries and migration quotas. I would also like to see Scotland parliament representatives at future UK trade talks.
This article by Andrew Marr is very interesting:
"But I will say this. Nationalist unease about pushing too quickly for a second referendum, and a growing realisation among senior Conservatives and some London Labour people that there is no return to the old union, is producing an underground mutter about home rule — an English Parliament too, and a Council of the British Isles, small and perhaps meeting in the Lords chamber. More Edwardian echoes: that takes us straight back to Asquith and ‘home rule all round’ in 1912. Had the Kaiser not intervened it would probably have happened and we’d be living in a very different Britain now."
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Assuming identical turnout Scotland needs something like 62/38 to shift the national score by 1 percent I think.
How does TSE get to a 1.2% boost from NI + Gibraltar + Ex pats then ?
I just did that calculation on my phone will feeding my daughter breakfast so I could be well wrong.
Oh, my figure of rUK was including all those groups you mentioned.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I may be wrong but I thought mr black burns argument was that you shouldn't need both. I disagree with that, but it's not an unheard of position.
I signed up to help the Stronger In campaign with telephone canvassing and data entry. However I found the telephone canvassing was to encourage known supporters to help with street stalls and leafleting rather than identify supporters for GOTV. I think the former is much more important than the latter and I have stopped helping. I have been asked to help on the day by encouraging people to go out and vote. But I'll only do that if there is data on Remain supporters. I've got a bad feeling about the Remain ground game compared to the Leave ground game. And it is going to be critical.
The difference is quite drastic. At least when comparing to my constituency.
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
Did Yokel say that? And how does that square with Sir Richard Dearlove (former head of Mi6) saying that Brexit would strengthen our security?
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Last Sunday morning the breaking story was about the attack in the Pulse nightclub. At that point the death toll was said to be low, and I thought “drugs”. As the story developed that view changed to “gang violence”, perhaps multiple shooters were involved. A few hours later claims of a link to ISIS came out, and the death toll rose. The Internet at this point jumped on with both feet, “terrorism” was the obvious cause, no need to listen further, the mud slinging can begin.
That narrative was maintained for about a day or so.
Omar Mateen’s links to terrorism are a bit odd, he was previously investigated by the FBI because of family connections. His claim of allegiance to ISIS is was made during the attack by a call to 911, and he said he was inspired by the death of an acquaintance who was fighting for a *rival* of ISIS. At the very least this raises some questions about Mateen’s understanding of what he claimed motivated him.
Over the next couple of days bits about Mateen’s past and private life came out. Reports about past anger and threats, reports from people who had met Mateen in gay clubs, and other people who thought he was gay, and from people who had been in contact with Mateen on gay dating apps. This also raises some questions about Mateen’s motivation.
Right now I’m not sure anybody really knows why Mateen murdered 49 people and injured over 50 others. The police and FBI probably have some idea, but I doubt they are certain about it.
So we have this very high profile example, from less than a week ago, about why a rush to judgment is foolish. And there are many other examples, from Columbine (lots of falsehoods about that still circulate), to Madrid, to Breivik. Is anybody listening?
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
Just a lot of the usual fear and Remain attack lines.
If you wish to close your mind to any other perspective that's your privilege.
Personally I think it's likely that a year or two after a leave vote it'll be hard to find anything like a majority who will admit to having voted that way and the world may look very different, and not in a good way.
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Jo Cox MP By johnredwood | Published: June 17, 2016
I was shocked and appalled by the tragic murder of Jo Cox yesterday. I send my condolences to her family. We have all lost a great lady who worked hard for her constituents and our wider democracy. Posted in Uncategorized | 6 Comments
His tweet at 10.06pm last night which remains undeleted.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
No real feel for this at all. From Scotland it looks like there is some sort of mega bye election going on in England. Every leader trotted out of Holyrood together yesterday waving a remain poster and frankly looking a bit silly but no one will remember that now.
Off to Aberdeen today. Be interesting to see if there is any more sign of the referendum there. Not expecting it. I would guess Scotland will be sub 65%, possibly sub 60, but unless I am getting a really distorted view (from PB? surely not) there seems quite a lot of interest in England.
Nonetheless it is possible England votes Leave the UK Remain thanks to Scotland
Depending on the differential turnout then it would have to start getting really close for Scotland to make a difference.
51% 49% Remain makes it a strong possibility Scotland makes the difference
Assuming identical turnout Scotland needs something like 62/38 to shift the national score by 1 percent I think.
Remain are over 60% in Scotland even in polls with Leave leads so that is possible, indeed Comres had England voting Leave the UK Remain
Miss Plato, but do we know how many of the campaign leaders have travelled second class on a train?
Quite
Sky can be great, but like all outlets - far too often they indulge in tittle-tattle as a substitute for actually doing their day job. Beth Rigby was at it all yesterday morning with Gove's dad - and had the cheek to keep saying the story didn't have any legs after spending 5 mins talking it up and half giggling.
It's the same with reportage of Trump. Justin Webb penned a load of twaddle in the Times this week about him employing some bloke, who was sacked from the 90s Dole team...for being an unembarrassed swinger.
It didn't add anything more than garden fence oooooh. It's about as insightful as the opinion of a Page 3 girl.
Good result for Labour in Tooting by election last night in difficult circumstances increasing their majority from 2800 to 6300, Greens and LDs third and fourth respectively with UKIP failing to advance from fifth
The almost complete absence of progress for UKIP despite the apparent success of Leave is indeed curious. It was a good result for Labour.
I don't really get the UKIP angle here. With a referendum due next week, I'd expect most voters to choose either Labour or Tory. UKIP right now are in limbo - either about to achieve their core aim or hit an almighty wall of a Remain win.
A narrow Remain win now looks more likely, this could be a signal however ironically a narrow Remain win is the best result for UKIP as a party if not for its core ideology
Farage and his go-it-alone UKIP poster stunt yesterday did lend itself to the interpretation that he wants to see a 51-49 Remain win - to keep his personal gravy train set of a party still on the rails.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
What a lily-livered liberal. Summary execution in a cell at the back of the police station, NOW!
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
On capital punishment I believe that's right - I'm not sure it necessarily follows people would agree on the state of mind being irrelevant or fast tracking executions in the same proportion however. They might, but those are separate issues.
After mail outs at the very start I've not received any literature, seen any stalls, or heard anyone say they've been canvassed. Very dull.
Most activity I have seen has been on High Streets on a Saturday but I have seen more activity than at the general election in terms of stalls and leaflets and a battle bus if not more posters
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
With executing everyone who has caused a death, irrespective of mens rea? That would include everyone who has contributed to causing a fatal accident, of course.
If you had asked me a couple weeks ago, I would have said slightly lower than GE level turnout, at maybe 62% for example. Now, i'm revising that upwards to say it will be closer to (but probably not higher than) 70%. maybe 68%. The young will vote higher than we think in this referendum (i'm referring to the studenty liberal types who let Clegg down in 2010 by not turning out on the day). Likewise a higher turnout than normal from working class voters. Typically high turn out form wealthy and old voters, but i doubt there's much room for increase in those groups.
it's anecdotal, but interesting to see how my parents have split on this issue. Both fairly typical tory voters from similar backgrounds and obviously living in similar circumstances (not members, don't talk much about politics but will always vote, generally further right wing on most issues). My dad has been driven more and more leave by the campaign, and my mum more and more remain. i've noticed the same pattern amongst men and women in the family generally, and would not be surprised if a majority of men vote leave and a majority of women remain. I think remain could do well to focus strategies on women in this last week.
IIRC men were about 7pts more likely to vote Leave.
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
LOL. Not alleging it.
Just running it up the flagpole.
You might be lucky but you're certainly a funny guy also.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
What a lily-livered liberal. Summary execution in a cell at the back of the police station, NOW!
Someone's running to be president of the Philippines I see
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
On capital punishment I believe that's right - I'm not sure it necessarily follows people would agree on the state of mind being irrelevant or fast tracking executions in the same proportion however. They might, but those are separate issues.
I've read reports that say in US juries can be hesitant about guilty charges if it means the death penalty, I understand that, beyond reasonable doubt and all that. In some cases, this is one, there is no doubt. I see absolutely no point in spending public money on this man.
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
Good points.
Sometimes the working class is contemptible. Other times it is useful. Go figure.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
With executing everyone who has caused a death, irrespective of mens rea? That would include everyone who has contributed to causing a fatal accident, of course.
I don't want to execute everybody that has caused a death.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
Without wishing to divert onto a theoretical w**kfest on this, if someone is insane, truly insane, and doesn't know the meaning of what they are doing, then you might as well execute them for peeling an orange because the moral judgement, to them, might be the same.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
You can't tell the difference between justice and entertainment, can you?
Telegraph and Mail both reporting this morning that Jo Cox was suffering from increasing harassment and she was working with police to step up security. Not known if it was related to the attack yesterday.
DT live story says that Mrs Cox was the target of the attack, the other man injured was a bystander who tried to intervene on behalf of the MP.
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
Foodbanks are an issue because to be blunt it shows how biased people are to their situation and their inability or unwillingness to understand the situation of others. All of us here can budget and have some savings so can easily survive a week or 3 (weeks, months years) until you start receiving money. If however you live week by week and suddenly don't receive your weekly wage what for us isn't an issue is for them a major problem..
I signed up to help the Stronger In campaign with telephone canvassing and data entry. However I found the telephone canvassing was to encourage known supporters to help with street stalls and leafleting rather than identify supporters for GOTV. I think the former is much more important than the latter and I have stopped helping. I have been asked to help on the day by encouraging people to go out and vote. But I'll only do that if there is data on Remain supporters. I've got a bad feeling about the Remain ground game compared to the Leave ground game. And it is going to be critical.
The difference is quite drastic. At least when comparing to my constituency.
Leave have something to sell. A vision. Something better. A dream. Yes, maybe a pie in the sky. But it is driven by Hope.
Remain have nothing to sell. Just the same old same old.
There are three camps in Britain. A very large camp who really dislike the EU and want to leave. Another very large camp who really dislike the EU but are afraid to leave. And a tiny Ken Clarke camp who really like the EU. There was always going to be a mismatch in enthusiasm.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
Without wishing to divert onto a theoretical w**kfest on this, if someone is insane, truly insane, and doesn't know the meaning of what they are doing, then you might as well execute them for peeling an orange because the moral judgement, to them, might be the same.
Last Sunday morning the breaking story was about the attack in the Pulse nightclub. At that point the death toll was said to be low, and I thought “drugs”. As the story developed that view changed to “gang violence”, perhaps multiple shooters were involved. A few hours later claims of a link to ISIS came out, and the death toll rose. The Internet at this point jumped on with both feet, “terrorism” was the obvious cause, no need to listen further, the mud slinging can begin.
That narrative was maintained for about a day or so.
Omar Mateen’s links to terrorism are a bit odd, he was previously investigated by the FBI because of family connections. His claim of allegiance to ISIS is was made during the attack by a call to 911, and he said he was inspired by the death of an acquaintance who was fighting for a *rival* of ISIS. At the very least this raises some questions about Mateen’s understanding of what he claimed motivated him.
Over the next couple of days bits about Mateen’s past and private life came out. Reports about past anger and threats, reports from people who had met Mateen in gay clubs, and other people who thought he was gay, and from people who had been in contact with Mateen on gay dating apps. This also raises some questions about Mateen’s motivation.
Right now I’m not sure anybody really knows why Mateen murdered 49 people and injured over 50 others. The police and FBI probably have some idea, but I doubt they are certain about it.
So we have this very high profile example, from less than a week ago, about why a rush to judgment is foolish. And there are many other examples, from Columbine (lots of falsehoods about that still circulate), to Madrid, to Breivik. Is anybody listening?
Someone on Twitter stuck the Star frontpage next to an image of the infamous Sun one about Hillsborough - and added the heading "Lessons Learned"
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
Picture yourself in a boat on a river With tangerine trees and marmalade skies Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly A girl with kaleidoscope eyes
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green Towering over your head Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes And she's gone
Lucy in the sky with diamonds Lucy in the sky with diamonds Lucy in the sky with diamonds Aaaaahhhhh...
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Maybe just calm down a little bit.
I think you'll find around 50% of the population would agree with me.
On capital punishment I believe that's right - I'm not sure it necessarily follows people would agree on the state of mind being irrelevant or fast tracking executions in the same proportion however. They might, but those are separate issues.
I've read reports that say in US juries can be hesitant about guilty charges if it means the death penalty, I understand that, beyond reasonable doubt and all that. In some cases, this is one, there is no doubt. I see absolutely no point in spending public money on this man.
As is your right. I was just pointing out we don't know everyone who wants the return of capital punishment, and it is many, feels the same. I doubt most have thought about that specific issue.
I signed up to help the Stronger In campaign with telephone canvassing and data entry. However I found the telephone canvassing was to encourage known supporters to help with street stalls and leafleting rather than identify supporters for GOTV. I think the former is much more important than the latter and I have stopped helping. I have been asked to help on the day by encouraging people to go out and vote. But I'll only do that if there is data on Remain supporters. I've got a bad feeling about the Remain ground game compared to the Leave ground game. And it is going to be critical.
The difference is quite drastic. At least when comparing to my constituency.
Leave have something to sell. A vision. Something better. A dream. Yes, maybe a pie in the sky. But it is driven by Hope.
Remain have nothing to sell. Just the same old same old.
There are three camps in Britain. A very large camp who really dislike the EU and want to leave. Another very large camp who really dislike the EU but are afraid to leave. And a tiny Ken Clarke camp who really like the EU. There was always going to be a mismatch in enthusiasm.
A camp that understands, that just like being in any grouping of individuals (countries in this case), there will be compromise and disappointments and that one cannot dictate everything all the time, but that on balance, it is better to be a member of the grouping, with all the benefits that it brings, than outside it, with none of them. And that on balance the benefits of being a member, outweigh those of not being a member.
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
I agree with Rochdale Pioneers, especially the sentence "Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it."
But, there is also something incredibly divisive about referendums themselves.
We are confronted with a binary choice (Leave or Remain), whereas what I really want (Stay in a Reformed EU) apparently is not even possible, or open to any discussion.
Similarly, in the Sindy, the Scots were told the only options were Yes or No, whereas (at least at the beginning), most of the Scots wanted much more freedom in a properly federal UK.
Neither of the referendums need have been so divisive, and Cameron must take a lot of the blame for that.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
If you are not interested in the perpetrator's state of mind then what you are talking about is not capital punishment but human sacrifice.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
Is that official UKIP policy? The insane should be executed
Farage is against the death penalty, its one of many things I've discussed with him that we disagree on.
You were calling on us to bomb ISIS, you're not against state sanctioned murder. In fact its worse than that, you're happy for innocent people to be murdered too.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
If you are not interested in the perpetrator's state of mind then what you are talking about is not capital punishment but human sacrifice.
Superb post from Rochdale Pioneers on the previous thread. He is absolutely spot on:
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin. A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated" It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
I agree with Rochdale Pioneers, especially the sentence "Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it."
But, there is also something incredibly divisive about referendums themselves.
We are confronted with a binary choice (Leave or Remain), whereas what I really want (Stay in a Reformed EU) apparently is not even possible, or open to any discussion.
Similarly, in the Sindy, the Scots were told the only options were Yes or No, whereas (at least at the beginning), most of the Scots wanted much more freedom in a properly federal UK.
Neither of the referendums need have been so divisive, and Cameron must take a lot of the blame for that.
Completely agree. This referendum is all about solving a problem Cameron had with his right wing. That's it.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
Without wishing to divert onto a theoretical w**kfest on this, if someone is insane, truly insane, and doesn't know the meaning of what they are doing, then you might as well execute them for peeling an orange because the moral judgement, to them, might be the same.
What utter bollocks.
Hmm yes well I thought I might have pitched that at the wrong audience.
Whilst I felt it was tasteless to dive right into this yesterday, I would have to agree with posters on both sides who say this is inextricably linked to the referendum.
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
Good result for Labour in Tooting by election last night in difficult circumstances increasing their majority from 2800 to 6300, Greens and LDs third and fourth respectively with UKIP failing to advance from fifth
The almost complete absence of progress for UKIP despite the apparent success of Leave is indeed curious. It was a good result for Labour.
I don't really get the UKIP angle here. With a referendum due next week, I'd expect most voters to choose either Labour or Tory. UKIP right now are in limbo - either about to achieve their core aim or hit an almighty wall of a Remain win.
A narrow Remain win now looks more likely, this could be a signal however ironically a narrow Remain win is the best result for UKIP as a party if not for its core ideology
Farage and his go-it-alone UKIP poster stunt yesterday did lend itself to the interpretation that he wants to see a 51-49 Remain win - to keep his personal gravy train set of a party still on the rails.
Telegraph and Mail both reporting this morning that Jo Cox was suffering from increasing harassment and she was working with police to step up security. Not known if it was related to the attack yesterday.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
I have the impression that a kangaroo court and travelator to the noose would be deemed adequate.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
If you are not interested in the perpetrator's state of mind then what you are talking about is not capital punishment but human sacrifice.
none of your fancy pants logic with @blackburn63 he is a primary colours man (woman).
I respect mostly all you say, and although I voted Tory in 2015 and you voted Lab, I don't think we are that far apart.
I'm a liberal and voted Tory purely because I have two young children and wanted to take the medicine of austerity so that we can clear the deficit. I'm 38, benefited greatly from the glut of borrowed money around 2000, and it's only fair I pay it back rather than my kids.
I'm not averse to tax rises; I don't disagree that some on the right are blind to working class realities and fears over job-security. Yet I do believe that the Labour metropolitan left are just as blind. With regard to IDS, he at least made an effort to understand sink-estate poverty.
We are all driven by what we experience. My Dad turned 62 last week and has been in a care home since spring last year with Alzheimers. My Mam and Dad were financially screwed by the timing of the disease (56 when diagnosed) because first my Dad had to give up work and then my Mam three years later. It was tough to get help from the Council. The tests were rigorous and quite demoralising, to check my Dad wasn't faking it. But he earned a tick as a genuine case.
The Council, the nurses, the social lot were all open about the fact that money was scarce. They are on their arses. But I don't think that's all the fault of the Tories. We can point wherever we like but Cameron was left with a £170bn annual black hole and if we are being callous about it, is spending money on my Dad a good use of resources? A dreadful thing to say, I know, but should he go without, or should a newborn go without instead?
I'm convinced, like most likely are that there is enough mega-money swishing about somewhere to help the poor. And there is enough of a working class rebel in me to suggest that the mega-rich are turned upside down and shook so that some of their zillions falls out their pockets to help the poor. But the political answer to that is what?! Socialism? Capitalism? It's so hard to know.
What I do know is that getting help for our Dad wouldn't have been easier if politics became less localised. The EU isn't making many cuts over in Brussels and I'd prefer power and money here rather than over there.
The debate on Twitter yesterday was awful. Even some MPs made spiteful, politically loaded comments. It's the same when a Muslim commits a crime; the comments are crass. Here on PB even the nastiest posters are not in the same league as some on Twitter. The debate here is respectful in comparison.
I think Remain will win next week but it'll be close. OUT might get as high as 48%. If they do, I suspect 45% of those voting out will not be bigots, racists or wealthy Tories.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
So we should euthanise this man, like we would with an animal? As a society we should be better than that, he is still a human being after all.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
Without wishing to divert onto a theoretical w**kfest on this, if someone is insane, truly insane, and doesn't know the meaning of what they are doing, then you might as well execute them for peeling an orange because the moral judgement, to them, might be the same.
Whilst I disagree with capital punishment if one is unable to distinguish between peeling an orange and murder they need to be locked up for the rest of their natural life in Broadmoor.
Had a bit of a hedonistic evening yesterday, woke to see the dreadful news. The sooner we have capital punishment the better.
The killer might be insane.
And?
Insanity is a defence to murder.
Doesn't make it right. The man has killed somebody beyond reasonable doubt, he should be executed.
If someone is insane they don't have the necessary mens rea - mental capacity/intent. You cannot convict of murder only on the basis of the act (actus reus). Both are needed.
I understand the law as it stands, I just don't agree with it. I don't want this man treated or imprisoned I want him executed. Resources are finite, I wouldn't waste a penny, whether it be on legal or medical resources, I'd kill him.
Plenty of legal resources on trials and appeals woukd be used if course. Executing people can be very expensive, though I imagine you would prefer a slimmed down system to address that.
Call it fast track if you like, in this case (others will point to similar) there is zero doubt. I'm not interested in motive, lining lawyer's pockets, research, anything. Have the trial on monday, follow some sort of procedure, then call Pierrepoint. Job done.
Who is the job done for? I have very little doubt that the family of Jo Cox would be appalled by such an outcome, especially if the killer does have mental health issues (and how many killers of this type do not?). Killing someone because it makes you feel better is not a justification for doing it.
Its not about making me feel better, its about economics and justice, aligned with punishment. I'm actually not interested in his state of mind, there are plenty more deserving cases than his. Mental health is a very real problem, it needs treating, I see no point in treating this man. He's never going to be released, what's the point?
So we should euthanise this man, like we would with an animal? As a society we should be better than that, he is still a human being after all.
Comments
And whilst this will be met with a chorus of disapproval, I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that this was a false flag attack. Yokel, who seems respected by many here, told us that the intelligence services simply would not wear a Leave result. For my own part, I have consistently stated that Britain being embedded within the EU structure is vital to US geostrategic interests, and I would be surprised if we were simply allowed as an electorate to walk out of the door. I very much hope this is wrong.
If this is right, and I am not alleging it, then homework will have been done, and we will see drip drip drip of this man's right wingery come to light.
It probably is for the europhile cause within the UK, to be fair.
it's anecdotal, but interesting to see how my parents have split on this issue. Both fairly typical tory voters from similar backgrounds and obviously living in similar circumstances (not members, don't talk much about politics but will always vote, generally further right wing on most issues). My dad has been driven more and more leave by the campaign, and my mum more and more remain. i've noticed the same pattern amongst men and women in the family generally, and would not be surprised if a majority of men vote leave and a majority of women remain. I think remain could do well to focus strategies on women in this last week.
Do you collect for the Salvation Army, though? That was the only other person consistently near us!
However I agree with your second paragraph and the sentiment in your final sentence.
I signed up to help the Stronger In campaign with telephone canvassing and data entry.
However I found the telephone canvassing was to encourage known supporters to help with street stalls and leafleting rather than identify supporters for GOTV. I think the former is much more important than the latter and I have stopped helping. I have been asked to help on the day by encouraging people to go out and vote. But I'll only do that if there is data on Remain supporters. I've got a bad feeling about the Remain ground game compared to the Leave ground game. And it is going to be critical.
They will probably try and make a linkage which could then hurt them.
IMHO your conclusion takes a lot for granted.
I suspect it's far more likely that a leave vote would descend into chaos, as the lack of a plan or any sort of shared agenda becomes apparent, people start to realise the compromises involved in any sort of new settlement outside the EU, and a split emerges between the pragmatic Tory outers and the true guardians of the flame in UKIP. Particularly if the winners try to pursue the type of de-regulating neo-lib agenda that no-one actually wants. Add in a Tory leadership election and hence no PM, the potential repercussions in Scotland and NI, falling markets, knock-on effects in other EU countries, immigration doesn't stop, a few far right successes across Europe and a few big company announcements about changes of plan post-Brexit, and it isn't hard to see that Mystic Dave may actually have a point...?
Dan Watkins (Conservative Party) - 11,537 (36.1% -5.8%)
Esther Dede Obiri-Darko (Green Party) - 830 (2.6% -1.5%)
Alexander James Glassbrook (Liberal Democrats) - 820 (2.6% -1.4%)
Elizabeth Eirwen Jones (UK Independence Party) - 507 (1.6% -1.3%)
7.3% swing from Conservative to Labour
Even people who are not religious try to find some cosmic significance in their lives. We cannot bear too much reality so we tell stories about ourselves.
Is it because this is his latest blog?
More generally, if you watch the business-focused TV channels (Bloomberg etc) Brexit and its impact are discussed constantly and in-depth, with market movements in all parts of the world being attributed to it. The reason is simple: if Brexit triggers an adverse reaction among investors and consumers in Europe as a whole that will have a major knock-on effect in major exporting countries such as Japan and China because the potential sales of their goods and services will also be affected. That, in turn, will have a ripple effect elsewhere.
Of course, there are always ups and downs - but this is one over which no-one has any control. This is the UK doing something to the rest of the world while the rest of the world looks on. And, as Leavers note, we are the world's fifth largest economy. It may turn out to be worth it in the long-term, but markets hate uncertainty and in the short and medium term can really only see downsides to us voting Leave.
For us in the UK any decrease in the government tax take that Brexit causes - whether that be by slower sales at home, reduced exports or decreased investment - will have a direct and negative impact on government income. That will mean higher taxes and/or further spending cuts.
It had batter turn out to be worth it because a lot of people are going to be very discomfited.
To be honest, this reminds me very much of the Stephen Timms attack - shocking on a WTF level, but that's about it. She's not my MP, I'd not heard of her until yesterday, it looks like a tragic and horrible one-off by someone who's mentally ill.
Why would this change my vote? Or my concerns about the UK's future governance?
I've been really quite revolted by those who've sought to weaponise her death for their own ends. Twitter was beyond awful - and far too many professional commentators have joined in. The lady was barely cold.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Gove has promised the Scottish Parliament more powers over agriculture, fisheries and migration quotas. I would also like to see Scotland parliament representatives at future UK trade talks.
This article by Andrew Marr is very interesting:
"But I will say this. Nationalist unease about pushing too quickly for a second referendum, and a growing realisation among senior Conservatives and some London Labour people that there is no return to the old union, is producing an underground mutter about home rule — an English Parliament too, and a Council of the British Isles, small and perhaps meeting in the Lords chamber. More Edwardian echoes: that takes us straight back to Asquith and ‘home rule all round’ in 1912. Had the Kaiser not intervened it would probably have happened and we’d be living in a very different Britain now."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/andrew-marr-i-believe-the-brexit-chatter/
It could be that Leave both reforms and strengthens the UK and puts it on a sustainable footing for the long term.
Oh, my figure of rUK was including all those groups you mentioned.
That narrative was maintained for about a day or so.
Omar Mateen’s links to terrorism are a bit odd, he was previously investigated by the FBI because of family connections. His claim of allegiance to ISIS is was made during the attack by a call to 911, and he said he was inspired by the death of an acquaintance who was fighting for a *rival* of ISIS. At the very least this raises some questions about Mateen’s understanding of what he claimed motivated him.
Over the next couple of days bits about Mateen’s past and private life came out. Reports about past anger and threats, reports from people who had met Mateen in gay clubs, and other people who thought he was gay, and from people who had been in contact with Mateen on gay dating apps. This also raises some questions about Mateen’s motivation.
Right now I’m not sure anybody really knows why Mateen murdered 49 people and injured over 50 others. The police and FBI probably have some idea, but I doubt they are certain about it.
So we have this very high profile example, from less than a week ago, about why a rush to judgment is foolish. And there are many other examples, from Columbine (lots of falsehoods about that still circulate), to Madrid, to Breivik. Is anybody listening?
I put the blame squarely with both camps. Yes Farage has produced a homage to Nazi propaganda with a poster I suspect will be quietly dropped. Yes people are banging on about foreigners like they are aliens. But also look to remain and "Project Fear" - vilify and try and scare people into voting one particular way. Its not working? Threaten them with government imposed financial ruin.
A lot of posters on here are right leaning so you may not get this next bit. This government is nasty. It has victimised abused and denigrated the poor the sick the dying, all the time egged on by scum press like the Daily Hurrah-for-the-Blackshirts. Its taking people too sick to work, putting them through a bullshit "assesment" and pronouncing them fit for work, taking away what little money they have, even wheelchairs FFS. Then when they are found dead IDS says "nothing to do with me". And the working poor? Scroungers. Feckless. Look, that one has a big TV and claims they need to go to a food bank, all of which are "politically motivated"
It's not just this campaign. Its the denouement of a long campaign to divide people so that the people at the top get away with it. What passes for political dialogue these days is a disgrace. We proclaim the brilliance of Britain as we forget everything that it means to actually be British.
Personally I think it's likely that a year or two after a leave vote it'll be hard to find anything like a majority who will admit to having voted that way and the world may look very different, and not in a good way.
His tweet at 10.06pm last night which remains undeleted.
Sky can be great, but like all outlets - far too often they indulge in tittle-tattle as a substitute for actually doing their day job. Beth Rigby was at it all yesterday morning with Gove's dad - and had the cheek to keep saying the story didn't have any legs after spending 5 mins talking it up and half giggling.
It's the same with reportage of Trump. Justin Webb penned a load of twaddle in the Times this week about him employing some bloke, who was sacked from the 90s Dole team...for being an unembarrassed swinger.
It didn't add anything more than garden fence oooooh. It's about as insightful as the opinion of a Page 3 girl.
Summary execution in a cell at the back of the police station, NOW!
Just running it up the flagpole.
You might be lucky but you're certainly a funny guy also.
DT live story says that Mrs Cox was the target of the attack, the other man injured was a bystander who tried to intervene on behalf of the MP.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-labour-mps-security-was-being-increased-after-thre/
Remain have nothing to sell. Just the same old same old.
There are three camps in Britain. A very large camp who really dislike the EU and want to leave. Another very large camp who really dislike the EU but are afraid to leave. And a tiny Ken Clarke camp who really like the EU. There was always going to be a mismatch in enthusiasm.
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green
Towering over your head
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
And she's gone
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
Aaaaahhhhh...
Good day
But, there is also something incredibly divisive about referendums themselves.
We are confronted with a binary choice (Leave or Remain), whereas what I really want (Stay in a Reformed EU) apparently is not even possible, or open to any discussion.
Similarly, in the Sindy, the Scots were told the only options were Yes or No, whereas (at least at the beginning), most of the Scots wanted much more freedom in a properly federal UK.
Neither of the referendums need have been so divisive, and Cameron must take a lot of the blame for that.
You were calling on us to bomb ISIS, you're not against state sanctioned murder. In fact its worse than that, you're happy for innocent people to be murdered too.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/06/an-mp-murdered-shocking-yes-but-not-at-all-surprising-the-portents-were-there-this-was-coming.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Friday 17th June 2016&utm_content=Friday 17th June 2016+CID_8b193ccfbc879ecc43d6315c63a25153&utm_source=Daily Email&utm_term=An MP is murdered Shocking yes but not at all surprising The portents were there This was coming
I respect mostly all you say, and although I voted Tory in 2015 and you voted Lab, I don't think we are that far apart.
I'm a liberal and voted Tory purely because I have two young children and wanted to take the medicine of austerity so that we can clear the deficit. I'm 38, benefited greatly from the glut of borrowed money around 2000, and it's only fair I pay it back rather than my kids.
I'm not averse to tax rises; I don't disagree that some on the right are blind to working class realities and fears over job-security. Yet I do believe that the Labour metropolitan left are just as blind. With regard to IDS, he at least made an effort to understand sink-estate poverty.
We are all driven by what we experience. My Dad turned 62 last week and has been in a care home since spring last year with Alzheimers. My Mam and Dad were financially screwed by the timing of the disease (56 when diagnosed) because first my Dad had to give up work and then my Mam three years later. It was tough to get help from the Council. The tests were rigorous and quite demoralising, to check my Dad wasn't faking it. But he earned a tick as a genuine case.
The Council, the nurses, the social lot were all open about the fact that money was scarce. They are on their arses. But I don't think that's all the fault of the Tories. We can point wherever we like but Cameron was left with a £170bn annual black hole and if we are being callous about it, is spending money on my Dad a good use of resources? A dreadful thing to say, I know, but should he go without, or should a newborn go without instead?
I'm convinced, like most likely are that there is enough mega-money swishing about somewhere to help the poor. And there is enough of a working class rebel in me to suggest that the mega-rich are turned upside down and shook so that some of their zillions falls out their pockets to help the poor. But the political answer to that is what?! Socialism? Capitalism? It's so hard to know.
What I do know is that getting help for our Dad wouldn't have been easier if politics became less localised. The EU isn't making many cuts over in Brussels and I'd prefer power and money here rather than over there.
The debate on Twitter yesterday was awful. Even some MPs made spiteful, politically loaded comments. It's the same when a Muslim commits a crime; the comments are crass. Here on PB even the nastiest posters are not in the same league as some on Twitter. The debate here is respectful in comparison.
I think Remain will win next week but it'll be close. OUT might get as high as 48%. If they do, I suspect 45% of those voting out will not be bigots, racists or wealthy Tories.
Or police marksmen?