Regarding swingback to Remain, of course it's possible and it's the reason Leave isn't nailed on. But that degree of swingback is asking a lot. I wouldn't back Remain at shorter than 3/1 now.
How much swing back to we think Junker will generate for Remain next week? I'll open the bidding at -3%. That's minus three.
This time next week Cameron will be writing his resignation letter, which is what he deserves, after that wretched renegotiation and that ridiculous deal. What a decline and fall. Incredible.
I think the black swan was on every front page yesterday morning...
It was a "black" swan in the sense those wretched oiled seabirds from the Exxon Valdez were....
If the polls show leave winning by 6 and remain then win, expect a lot of conspiracy theories,
You can come up with lots of conspiracy theories around polls. I still think there's some herding going on which is why I won't believe it until it actually happens.
Here's a conspiracy theory, have the polls deliberately overstated Remain in an attempt to crush Leave's morale? And now they've moved to reflect what they actually think will happen to preserve their reputation (not that it was great to begin with).
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
This time next week Cameron will be writing his resignation letter, which is what he deserves, after that wretched renegotiation and that ridiculous deal. What a decline and fall. Incredible.
I think the black swan was on every front page yesterday morning...
Thee was also one sailing serenely down the Thames - although the reaction to seeing it hasn't filtered through yet in polls. A new meaning to the term "Swan upping"?
Regarding swingback to Remain, of course it's possible and it's the reason Leave isn't nailed on. But that degree of swingback is asking a lot. I wouldn't back Remain at shorter than 3/1 now.
How much swing back to we think Junker will generate for Remain next week? I'll open the bidding at -3%. That's minus three.
If he's coming it's an admission of inevitable failure - not he nd not Cameron would think whatever he says would lead to more remain votes, at best he does not create any more, so it woukd be a final plea to show he did what he could.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
Give it up, you're convincing nobody. You may be full of self-loathing but the idea that we hate anyone is about as believable as the £4,300 figure.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
Not hatred - practicalities. If you want to see shanty towns continuing to develop round London then keep on voting Remain.
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
Regarding swingback to Remain, of course it's possible and it's the reason Leave isn't nailed on. But that degree of swingback is asking a lot. I wouldn't back Remain at shorter than 3/1 now.
How much swing back to we think Junker will generate for Remain next week? I'll open the bidding at -3%. That's minus three.
If the polls show leave winning by 6 and remain then win, expect a lot of conspiracy theories,
Oh, I'm expecting a conspiracy if there's any feasible way of mounting one. If something is important enough to establishment strategy get the POTUS on a plane, it's certainly important enough to stuff a few ballot boxes. Why on earth do otherwise?
The alternative is to improvise, use Brexit 'uncertainty' to stage a huge tax-payer fleecing bank bail out. That's being discussed a lot at the moment, I think Southam mentioned it yesterday. No reason not to vote Leave though - it's a process of regaining democracy, and Brexit is a step in the right direction.
This time next week Cameron will be writing his resignation letter, which is what he deserves, after that wretched renegotiation and that ridiculous deal. What a decline and fall. Incredible.
It is most certainly NOT over.
Quite right.
If this was a GE we'd be saying it's over. The Momentum is mind-blowing.
However, yes, as this is a unique referendum... who knows.
But LEAVE should certainly be the favourite now. If they aren't then bettors should pile on. (I can't check the markets from Italy)
I'm actually very excited now. I'm thinking of all the powers we will get back and what we'll do with them. How we can pitch ourselves on the world stage.
I have a spring in my step.
However, how the markets react is crucial. It's those that'll (potentially) spoke some soft AB Leavers.
I imagine all is not going well in the valleys for remain either. My Labour supporting mother and father have voted leave by post also.
Nick Servini @NickServini 6m6 minutes ago Revealing comments from Leanne Wood on @BBCRadioWales that timing of EU ref in Wales was a disaster and difficult to put the case to remain.
"Immigration is now the most critical issue, cited as very important to their vote by 33 per cent, up five points in a month, including just over half of leave supporters."
In other words immigration is not the most critical for 67% of voters including just under half of leave supporters.
The idea leave is winning the support of 53% due to immigration alone is a bold faced lie.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
Is that it? We all hate Johnny Foreigner? You epitomise the way Remain has go this campaign so dreadfully wrong. Smug. Superior. Self-satisfied. Sly. Snide.
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Of course we could have this all backwards. Scotland and Quebec weren't countries, the UK is. It's just possible that swing voters could see voting for the UK as voting for their country in a way that was never the same with those provinces.
That is my fear. I hold no faith in the Quebec and Scotland theory for that reason – totally different situation.
When you get down to it the problem remain have had is they want and need people to think really hard if they will be better off in or out. Many leavers however are just treating the question as 'do you like the EU' and the impact good or bad is secondary.
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
I'm not sure all this hyperbole really helps your cause. Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
Regarding swingback to Remain, of course it's possible and it's the reason Leave isn't nailed on. But that degree of swingback is asking a lot. I wouldn't back Remain at shorter than 3/1 now.
How much swing back to we think Junker will generate for Remain next week? I'll open the bidding at -3%. That's minus three.
The UK would be "better off without" the European Union, US presidential hopeful Donald Trump has said.
He told Fox News the migration crisis had been a "horrible thing for Europe" and blamed the EU for driving it.
The Republican said he was not making a "recommendation" but his "feeling" was that the UK should vote to sever ties with the EU in its 23 June referendum.
Democratic President Barack Obama expressed support for the UK remaining in the EU last month.
Mr Trump, who has emerged as the Republican presumptive nominee for the US presidency, told Fox News: "I think the migration has been a horrible thing for Europe, a lot of that was pushed by the EU.
"I would say [the UK] are better off without [the EU], personally, but I'm not making that as a recommendation, just my feeling.
"I know Great Britain very well, I know the country very well, I have a lot of investments there."
He added: "I want them to make their own decision." (BBC Website) --------------------
Doesn't sound as if he's going to make a Sheffield Rally moment - but you can hope.
And the comments quoted sound a lot more presidential than "Back of the Queue Obama"
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
I'm not sure all this hyperbole really helps your cause. Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
No. Businesses will start taking decisions from June 24th. The markets will have their verdict - short term, probably negative as they dislike disruption. The sunlit uplands with free unicorns pain will start pretty promptly....
I started this campaign expecting backing Remain, but now am extremely excited for the idea of Leave. Mainly because I am an optimist who has confidence in our nation.
I have found the talking down of our great nation by Cameron and Osborne utterly shocking. It is the sort of preserve of the far left who only see the bad of our nation. Osborne has morphed into Corbyn before our eyes with nothing good to say about our country.
This country that has steel in its bones. That does not waver and just gets on with the job and does what needs to be done. We won't be bullied into submission. Remain's campaign of fear may work on lesser nations but it won't work on mine, it deserves to lose.
I would caution people counting their chickens that we have not yet seen the slow burn Obama effect truly manifest itself. It did after all blow away the engine room of the Leave campaign. I suspect when the true enormity of Obama's words sink in, we will see big polling leads for Remain.
When you get down to it the problem remain have had is they want and need people to think really hard if they will be better off in or out. Many leavers however are just treating the question as 'do you like the EU' and the impact good or bad is secondary.
I think the question is more: do they like the fact there is a Polish shop on the high street and people talking polish everywhere... Attached to 0 pay rises over the past 8 years as more and more Eastern Europeans have arrived...
95% of Brits do not "hate Johnny Foreigner". They are alarmed, however, at the scale of immigration, which is unsurprising as it is running at the highest levels ever recorded in our history.
They are also worried about our ability to control this immigration, which again is unsurprising as our borders are entirely open to the EU, and we have no way of limiting numbers.
The highest levels of immigration correspond to our economic success. We have the highest level of employment in recorded history. This is not a coincidence.
Trashing the economy to reduce immigration is not a smart plan, for anyone (except the elite, who will be fine)
Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
Not necessarily. As noted last night, Leavers have proposed passing bills that are illegal under EU treaties. Hard to stay in under those circumstances.
Of course they might not be able to get such bills through Parliament, which is an issue of a different sort
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
I'm not sure all this hyperbole really helps your cause. Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
The fact that you think that my outlining the effects of walking away from the biggest single market on Earth is hyperbole says it all. People just don't want to listen.
I'm stunned that sensible centrist posters on here such as @kle4 are pledging to vote Leave, despite knowing the damage it will do. It's utterly bizarre. Like some great sleepwalking drug has been sprayed upon the masses.
UK Outlook for Monday 20 Jun 2016 to Wednesday 29 Jun 2016:
Cloud and outbreaks of rain will spread across most parts early next week, followed by a mixture of sunshine and showers. The remainder of the week will remain unsettled and often windy with bands of rain pushing east, these interspersed with brighter, though showery conditions. The heaviest rain and most frequent showers will be in the north and west and the best of any drier spells in the east and southeast. Into the weekend and following week it will remain generally unsettled with the most frequent spells of rain across northwestern parts and generally drier and brighter weather in the southeast. Temperatures will be generally around normal, with the warmest temperatures likely in the south.
95% of Brits do not "hate Johnny Foreigner". They are alarmed, however, at the scale of immigration, which is unsurprising as it is running at the highest levels ever recorded in our history.
They are also worried about our ability to control this immigration, which again is unsurprising as our borders are entirely open to the EU, and we have no way of limiting numbers.
The highest levels of immigration correspond to our economic success. We have the highest level of employment in recorded history. This is not a coincidence.
Trashing the economy to reduce immigration is not a smart plan, for anyone (except the elite, who will be fine)
Well as all the left say - a significant percentage is on ZHC and minimum wage. Reducing immigration will reduce supply slightly - and hence increase wages - to the benefit of those in work.
I do not think you realise how many of the CDE class have had their wages squeezed and their standard of living reduced - and that is the backlash you are now facing.
UK Outlook for Monday 20 Jun 2016 to Wednesday 29 Jun 2016:
Cloud and outbreaks of rain will spread across most parts early next week, followed by a mixture of sunshine and showers. The remainder of the week will remain unsettled and often windy with bands of rain pushing east, these interspersed with brighter, though showery conditions. The heaviest rain and most frequent showers will be in the north and west and the best of any drier spells in the east and southeast. Into the weekend and following week it will remain generally unsettled with the most frequent spells of rain across northwestern parts and generally drier and brighter weather in the southeast. Temperatures will be generally around normal, with the warmest temperatures likely in the south.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
It's this kind of sneering which is one big reason REMAIN are so badly fucking this up.
95% of Brits do not "hate Johnny Foreigner". They are alarmed, however, at the scale of immigration, which is unsurprising as it is running at the highest levels ever recorded in our history.
They are also worried about our ability to control this immigration, which again is unsurprising as our borders are entirely open to the EU, and we have no way of limiting numbers.
There's a full page colour ad in Star today - about immigration.
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
I'm not sure all this hyperbole really helps your cause. Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
The fact that you think that my outlining the effects of walking away from the biggest single market on Earth is hyperbole says it all. People just don't want to listen.
I'm stunned that sensible centrist posters on here such as @kle4 are pledging to vote Leave, despite knowing the damage it will do. It's utterly bizarre. Like some great sleepwalking drug has been sprayed upon the masses.
It has, for about 50 years - it looks like they're just beginning to rub their eyes and wake up.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
It's this kind of sneering which is one big reason REMAIN are so badly fucking this up.
95% of Brits do not "hate Johnny Foreigner". They are alarmed, however, at the scale of immigration, which is unsurprising as it is running at the highest levels ever recorded in our history.
They are also worried about our ability to control this immigration, which again is unsurprising as our borders are entirely open to the EU, and we have no way of limiting numbers.
They also hated been called a racist i.e Little Englander, as most have the opinion we go out of our way to be tolerant to people from different countries, far more than in many other countries. If this is true or not, is here nor there.
Henning Wehn has a good joke....Some people say the British hate foreigners, but actually I have always found them very tolerant people...they might not love us, but they definitely tolerant us.
Remain has one chance left. The politicians have no credibility, neither do the experts. But what could work is having bosses of companies emailing their employees and expressing their strong desire for a remain vote to ensure job security for said employees. People don't currently believe leaving the EU would hurt them personally, and so the immigration argument is winning. Only by having your boss effectively email you and say "vote remain or lose your job" could scare enough people to play it safe. Would it be bullying and immoral, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's remains only trick left.
Going into the final week I think it's fair to suggest that Remain are in the shite.
Cameron started this by saying he would negotiate a good deal for Britain.
With Brexit looking a distinct possibility, perhaps Juncker, Merkel, Schultz and co will be willing to offer some goodies in a last ditch negotiation next week.
Perhaps this is what the 'whingeing', clued-up Brits are angling for?
Good morning all. Strange days indeed.
The issue with any last minute offer is that, based on the Telegraph front page, even the tabled deal that Cameron negotiated is illegal.
That immediately raises the next issue. If Remain do win and Dave's deal is struck down, where on earth do we go from there?
Today's anecdota, Daughters boyfriends family (all three sons in the forces) have split 4/1 Leave/Remain, with Dad being the sole Remainer (he works for the local council).
Quite right. I don't buy this free pass argument the Leavers seem to be promoting. "Oh it won't happen for two years so everything will be fine." As you say Carlotta, businesses will plan ahead. Why the hell otherwise are majors like Unilever and Tata writing to their staff?
Sadly, the sensible moderates from both sides of the political divide on this forum are being drowned out by the hard-left and the hard-right, who have all the best tunes. I can only hope some of the people who have got carried away by their populism come to their senses.
But I don't think they will. To see kle4, Charles and Rochdale pledging for Leave is utterly depressing. I had even hoped SeanT would see sense eventually. But no.
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the ballot box to save Remain. I know lots of people are, but I think Leave has it.
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
I'm not sure all this hyperbole really helps your cause. Remember we will still be a member of the EU for at least 2 more years whatever happens. There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
The fact that you think that my outlining the effects of walking away from the biggest single market on Earth is hyperbole says it all. People just don't want to listen.
I'm stunned that sensible centrist posters on here such as @kle4 are pledging to vote Leave, despite knowing the damage it will do. It's utterly bizarre. Like some great sleepwalking drug has been sprayed upon the masses.
But we're not walking away from the single market for at least 2 years if at all.
And as for the economic effects, this is far from certain. For example, if the pound falls as everyone keeps predicting that might actually boost our economy with more exports. Let's not forget that until a few years ago the BOE was spending millions in QE deliberately trying to get the pound to fall.
SIndy Ref: Project Fear economy ver 1. GE2015: Project Fear of Alex Salmond and his mates London: Project Fear of muslims. EU Ref: Project Fear of economy ver 2.
It was ALWAYS about immigration. Everyone is bigoted against something at least a little bit. And 30 years of neo-liberalism telling you that YOU are important above all others, combined over the last 10 years of mindless consumerism where your worth as a person is defined by what iPhone you have means we have a populace that is shallow, petty and ill informed.
And so people become unhappy with themselves and their lot, and they blame the change in society. Its hard to blame Apple (other purveyors of pointless tat are available) or the X Factor or the establishment who have changed things in small increments for the worse over a long period. Its easy to blame the visual change and that means foreigners.
Free movement of Labour has been a disaster. For Western Europe it has suppressed wages and conditions, and led to massive unemployment and underemployment. For eastern Europe their brightest and most industrious have ditched their own country to work in Starbucks on minimum wage in the west.
And thats even on doorsteps in places with minimal migration its all about migration. To sneer at anyone raising it as an issue, to tell them they don't know what they are talking about, to call them racist is the problem. The established political parties have given up engaging with people and instead offer what Galloway described as two cheeks of the same arse - whatever you think your issues are you are wrong, anyway you have no choice.
People do have a choice. Democracy is revolution. As we're about to witness in full efect.
Remain has one chance left. The politicians have no credibility, neither do the experts. But what could work is having bosses of companies emailing their employees and expressing their strong desire for a remain vote to ensure job security for said employees. People don't currently believe leaving the EU would hurt them personally, and so the immigration argument is winning. Only by having your boss effectively email you and say "vote remain or lose your job" could scare enough people to play it safe. Would it be bullying and immoral, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's remains only trick left.
It has already been happening. BT. Rolls Royce. May well be others.
Quite right. I don't buy this free pass argument the Leavers seem to be promoting. "Oh it won't happen for two years so everything will be fine." As you say Carlotta, businesses will plan ahead. Why the hell otherwise are majors like Unilever and Tata writing to their staff?
Sadly, the sensible moderates from both sides of the political divide on this forum are being drowned out by the hard-left and the hard-right, who have all the best tunes. I can only hope some of the people who have got carried away by their populism come to their senses.
But I don't think they will. To see kle4, Charles and Rochdale pledging for Leave is utterly depressing. I had even hoped SeanT would see sense eventually. But no.
A better question may be to ask why they haven't seen what you are calling "sense". Is it possible that you are the one who is blinkered and not seeing the full picture....
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will be nervous switching as people contemplate the price of a leave vote, I'm not going to deny feeling that pressure myself, but remain seem entirely reliant on that happening, for it yo be very. Ig, and for all of them to switch from remain to keave, not just remain to not vote.
Does that seem credible? Granted, it's similar to my reading of why it was unlikely all the polls were wrong at the GE, but there's nothing left for remain to pitch, so they can only hope the economic fears will hit home at last.
From what I've seen I'm amazed Remain is even at 47 percent. I doubt the polls are currently wrong, BUT i do suspect that as polling day approaches and people actually consider what Brexit COULD mean economically that there will be some swing to Remain. As others have said Scotland and Quebec support this.
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
Not a massive swing. About 3% from Leave to Remain if the current polls are correct with about a 6% Leave lead.
UK Outlook for Monday 20 Jun 2016 to Wednesday 29 Jun 2016:
Cloud and outbreaks of rain will spread across most parts early next week, followed by a mixture of sunshine and showers. The remainder of the week will remain unsettled and often windy with bands of rain pushing east, these interspersed with brighter, though showery conditions. The heaviest rain and most frequent showers will be in the north and west and the best of any drier spells in the east and southeast. Into the weekend and following week it will remain generally unsettled with the most frequent spells of rain across northwestern parts and generally drier and brighter weather in the southeast. Temperatures will be generally around normal, with the warmest temperatures likely in the south.
We want heavy rain up north (except Scotland) and glorious sunshine in London and the Home Counties.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
And there is part of the issue. The vast majority of us are not knuckle dragging "In -ger-lund" types.
I have lived abroad on the Continent, speak two languages, have a job totally based on trade, will be in France early on the 24th to enjoy its delights (so staying up on the count night is a bit of a bugger!), and would look forward to many such future visits in total friendship and cooperation with our neighbours. I harbour zero animosity to those that have come here under the rules as they are. Not their fault the rules are nuts. They deserve our protection and welcome as much as "native" Brits do in our society. but:-
1) It is not xenophobic to question if the system we have is still fit for purpose. If we sweep that under the carpet as so many in Parliament have for years problems multiply.
2) I bitterly resent being treated like a bleedin' idiot by successive Govts on this issue. The past three weeks have just been the culmination of so much over the years.
Not sure still who's going to win, and whoever does they need to respect and take into account the views of those on the other side, however, tarring us as brainless xenophobic idiots is not helping Remain's cause a jot.
SIndy Ref: Project Fear economy ver 1. GE2015: Project Fear of Alex Salmond and his mates London: Project Fear of muslims. EU Ref: Project Fear of economy ver 2.
95% of Brits do not "hate Johnny Foreigner". They are alarmed, however, at the scale of immigration, which is unsurprising as it is running at the highest levels ever recorded in our history.
They are also worried about our ability to control this immigration, which again is unsurprising as our borders are entirely open to the EU, and we have no way of limiting numbers.
The highest levels of immigration correspond to our economic success. We have the highest level of employment in recorded history. This is not a coincidence.
Trashing the economy to reduce immigration is not a smart plan, for anyone (except the elite, who will be fine)
It is an economic fact that when available labour rises, the wages of the lower-earners fall.
This alone is probably driving much of the working class protest.
We've had 15 years of the lower-paid, working classes being labelled (in a backhanded way, of course) as racist or bigoted (see Gordon Brown and Ms Duffy)... but it's never been the people us working classes have complained about, it's the drop in living standards/job security for us and our children.
The EU, of course, isn't entirely to blame for this. But this election is a golden chance to hit back hard in the polling booths.
Remain has one chance left. The politicians have no credibility, neither do the experts. But what could work is having bosses of companies emailing their employees and expressing their strong desire for a remain vote to ensure job security for said employees. People don't currently believe leaving the EU would hurt them personally, and so the immigration argument is winning. Only by having your boss effectively email you and say "vote remain or lose your job" could scare enough people to play it safe. Would it be bullying and immoral, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's remains only trick left.
I'm hoping that having got a howl of rage off their chests in the run-up, that in the quiet of the polling booth sense over jobs and the economy will prevail.
Voting Leave is self-inflicted economic chaos for years.
Quite right. I don't buy this free pass argument the Leavers seem to be promoting. "Oh it won't happen for two years so everything will be fine." As you say Carlotta, businesses will plan ahead. Why the hell otherwise are majors like Unilever and Tata writing to their staff?
Sadly, the sensible moderates from both sides of the political divide on this forum are being drowned out by the hard-left and the hard-right, who have all the best tunes. I can only hope some of the people who have got carried away by their populism come to their senses.
But I don't think they will. To see kle4, Charles and Rochdale pledging for Leave is utterly depressing. I had even hoped SeanT would see sense eventually. But no.
A better question may be to ask why they haven't seen what you are calling "sense". Is it possible that you are the one who is blinkered and not seeing the full picture....
Along with every major analyst, expert body, nine out of ten economists, virtually all national banks, the TUC, the CBI, the leader of every political party, the President of the United States, and most western governments. And the governments of Japan and Korea.
Yes, it's possible that you, Boris and Nige have it right and we are all wrong. You are right, it's possible.
@RochdalePioneers - Total respect to you for reaching your decision to switch and coming on here to describe your reasons to us all. Welcome aboard Labour Leave.
Free movement of Labour has been a disaster. For Western Europe it has suppressed wages and conditions, and led to massive unemployment and underemployment. For eastern Europe their brightest and most industrious have ditched their own country to work in Starbucks on minimum wage in the west.
And thats even on doorsteps in places with minimal migration its all about migration.
We will still have immigration. LEAVE aim to get it down to 100,000 by 2020. Which most people would find acceptable. The big difference is that we will be able to choose who comes, like Australia. It really is that simple.
And this is the rod the leave campaign have made for themselves. By pandering to those who think immigration is the root of all their problems, while intending to do nothing about it.
Quite right. I don't buy this free pass argument the Leavers seem to be promoting. "Oh it won't happen for two years so everything will be fine." As you say Carlotta, businesses will plan ahead. Why the hell otherwise are majors like Unilever and Tata writing to their staff?
Sadly, the sensible moderates from both sides of the political divide on this forum are being drowned out by the hard-left and the hard-right, who have all the best tunes. I can only hope some of the people who have got carried away by their populism come to their senses.
But I don't think they will. To see kle4, Charles and Rochdale pledging for Leave is utterly depressing. I had even hoped SeanT would see sense eventually. But no.
A better question may be to ask why they haven't seen what you are calling "sense". Is it possible that you are the one who is blinkered and not seeing the full picture....
Along with every major analyst, expert body, nine out of ten economists, virtually all national banks, the TUC, the CBI, the leader of every political party, the President of the United States, and most western governments. And the governments of Japan and Korea.
Yes, it's possible that you, Boris and Nige have it right and we are all wrong. You are right, it's possible.
Hmm. You are making an assumption there.. I don't think I've ever revealed on here how I voted....
Remain has one chance left. The politicians have no credibility, neither do the experts. But what could work is having bosses of companies emailing their employees and expressing their strong desire for a remain vote to ensure job security for said employees. People don't currently believe leaving the EU would hurt them personally, and so the immigration argument is winning. Only by having your boss effectively email you and say "vote remain or lose your job" could scare enough people to play it safe. Would it be bullying and immoral, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's remains only trick left.
I'm hoping that having got a howl of rage off their chests in the run-up, that in the quiet of the polling booth sense over jobs and the economy will prevail.
Voting Leave is self-inflicted economic chaos for years.
It was ALWAYS about immigration. Everyone is bigoted against something at least a little bit. And 30 years of neo-liberalism telling you that YOU are important above all others, combined over the last 10 years of mindless consumerism where your worth as a person is defined by what iPhone you have means we have a populace that is shallow, petty and ill informed.
And so people become unhappy with themselves and their lot, and they blame the change in society. Its hard to blame Apple (other purveyors of pointless tat are available) or the X Factor or the establishment who have changed things in small increments for the worse over a long period. Its easy to blame the visual change and that means foreigners.
Free movement of Labour has been a disaster. For Western Europe it has suppressed wages and conditions, and led to massive unemployment and underemployment. For eastern Europe their brightest and most industrious have ditched their own country to work in Starbucks on minimum wage in the west.
And thats even on doorsteps in places with minimal migration its all about migration. To sneer at anyone raising it as an issue, to tell them they don't know what they are talking about, to call them racist is the problem. The established political parties have given up engaging with people and instead offer what Galloway described as two cheeks of the same arse - whatever you think your issues are you are wrong, anyway you have no choice.
People do have a choice. Democracy is revolution. As we're about to witness in full efect.
Which won't make any difference to migration levels. Indeed, non-EU migration will probably have to rise if we quit the single market. This is the central insanity of the Labour Leave tendency.
Mori's findings show that "Project Fear" has just been one long, lamentable failure with voters rejecting, one by one, all of the negative points put forward by REMAIN (and Farage's sex attack claim)
Mea Culpa. Correction Leave aren't leading by 14% among likely voters. It is actually 2%
So why isn't a Leave lead of 2% the headline figure then?
That still means this is very close.
Another fooking mistake on my part
Leave lead among likely voters = 6%
Leave lead among all voters = 2%
Apologies again.
No apology necessary. I know you and OGH must find this extremely stressful, but try and chill a little bit if you can. No point killing yourself over it.
I'll be buying you a few drinks after this. You've worked bloody hard.
@BobbyIpsosMORI: Immigration now top issue, not economy, only 17% believe will be £4,300 worse: remain messages not landed #EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
And there is part of the issue. The vast majority of us are not knuckle dragging "In -ger-lund" types.
I have lived abroad on the Continent, speak two languages, have a job totally based on trade, will be in France early on the 24th to enjoy its delights (so staying up on the count night is a bit of a bugger!), and would look forward to many such future visits in total friendship and cooperation with our neighbours. I harbour zero animosity to those that have come here under the rules as they are. Not their fault the rules are nuts. They deserve our protection and welcome as much as "native" Brits do in our society. but:-
1) It is not xenophobic to question if the system we have is still fit for purpose. If we sweep that under the carpet as so many in Parliament have for years problems multiply.
2) I bitterly resent being treated like a bleedin' idiot by successive Govts on this issue. The past three weeks have just been the culmination of so much over the years.
Not sure still who's going to win, and whoever does they need to respect and take into account the views of those on the other side, however, tarring us as brainless xenophobic idiots is not helping Remain's cause a jot.
It's a shame I can't actually link the graph, due to the way it's generated. But if you want to know what the issue is for many people, take a look at
Most of the posters here are intelligent reasonable folk. Fit a trend line onto that graph. Then come back here and keep screaming "Racist! Racist! Racist!" at the people that have been most affected by that trend. If you dare.
I've said before that quoting statistics about GDP and employment rates is counter-productive. Many of us have made out like gangbusters since 2008. Big whoop. There are still 1.7 million odd people out of work (not all long term obviously), of which about 650,000 are young people. It's not been a universal economic miracle.
SIndy Ref: Project Fear economy ver 1. GE2015: Project Fear of Alex Salmond and his mates London: Project Fear of muslims. EU Ref: Project Fear of economy ver 2.
The only silver lining for labourites is that I can't see anyway that Project Fear will work on them economically in 2020 - anything the tories say labour can reply with project fear. It failed miserably in London and may be about to lose again in the EU ref (I would argue that leave's campaign has been very dogwhistle, but it's not specifically Project Fear). If we do leave the EU it will also show that the UK is not small c conservative and may actually be open to a more radical option.
There was no swing back to No, it's just that DKs voted No on the day.
That's one reason why I'm not sure Osbourne did himself any favours on Tuesday night... Given that people believe the other sides £350m a week figure why would they trust his £30bn uncosted black hole when they don't trust his £4300 figure...
I really don't see how remain win from here. There will
Yes, and needs to be a massive swing too, I just cannot see it. Now I just have to make sure my own nerve does not fail.
I'm not expecting last minute swings in the
There may be a lot of change in Westminster but for ordinary people not so much.
I'm stunned that sensible centrist posters on here such as @kle4 are pledging to vote Leave, despite knowing the damage it will do. It's utterly bizarre. Like some great sleepwalking drug has been sprayed upon the masses.
But we're not walking away from the single market for at least 2 years if at all.
SO IF WE DON'T WALK AWAY FROM THE SINGLE MARKET THE DREAMS OF YOUR FELLOW TRAVELLERS ABOUT PULLING UP THE DRAWBRIDGE TO MIGRANTS ARE DEAD.
Comments
It's dirty but it may spike his guns and stop him from wilting to any govt pressure.
e.g. what is the chance of the coin coming down heads (Brexit) 7 out of 8 times, if in fact it is fractionally biased to tails (Remain)?
Remote...
Here's a conspiracy theory, have the polls deliberately overstated Remain in an attempt to crush Leave's morale? And now they've moved to reflect what they actually think will happen to preserve their reputation (not that it was great to begin with).
#EUref https://t.co/5Vfmg7kOn7
Which is why a campaign built around hatred of Johnny Foreigner is polling in the lead
General Boles @GeneralBoles
Hang on lads, Juncker's going to make an intervention*
*adds 15 points to Leave
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClAJ61CXIAEwy7g.jpg
Angela as Hitler......that'll help post LEAVE negotiation no end......
Again it might win the vote, but salt the Earth if they do win.
"Run on the pound? That guy we trashed last week will sort it out"
Oh, wait...
Next Friday will be a sad, sad, day as petty nationalism and a preference for myths over facts sends our great cities into a nosedive.
I hope the Leavers think it's worth it. Those with young families to support, whose fathers and mothers rely on a stable economy, might think twice. But it seems like collective delusion has taken over all too many of them.
You break it, you own it. But we all suffer for it.
http://worldwar2headquarters.com/HTML/aircraft/germanAircraft/junkers88.html
The alternative is to improvise, use Brexit 'uncertainty' to stage a huge tax-payer fleecing bank bail out. That's being discussed a lot at the moment, I think Southam mentioned it yesterday. No reason not to vote Leave though - it's a process of regaining democracy, and Brexit is a step in the right direction.
Bloody hell - it really is game on.
I have a spring in my step.
However, how the markets react is crucial. It's those that'll (potentially) spoke some soft AB Leavers.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/03/donald-trump-arrive-uk-eu-referendum-cameron-brexit
Nick Servini @NickServini 6m6 minutes ago
Revealing comments from Leanne Wood on @BBCRadioWales that timing of EU ref in Wales was a disaster and difficult to put the case to remain.
Hi Angela - you know that poster with you as Hitler, you can take a joke, can't you?
Angela?
Hello?
Anyone there? Angela?
In other words immigration is not the most critical for 67% of voters including just under half of leave supporters.
The idea leave is winning the support of 53% due to immigration alone is a bold faced lie.
Take a day off.
Make that a week.
He told Fox News the migration crisis had been a "horrible thing for Europe" and blamed the EU for driving it.
The Republican said he was not making a "recommendation" but his "feeling" was that the UK should vote to sever ties with the EU in its 23 June referendum.
Democratic President Barack Obama expressed support for the UK remaining in the EU last month.
Mr Trump, who has emerged as the Republican presumptive nominee for the US presidency, told Fox News: "I think the migration has been a horrible thing for Europe, a lot of that was pushed by the EU.
"I would say [the UK] are better off without [the EU], personally, but I'm not making that as a recommendation, just my feeling.
"I know Great Britain very well, I know the country very well, I have a lot of investments there."
He added: "I want them to make their own decision."
(BBC Website)
--------------------
Doesn't sound as if he's going to make a Sheffield Rally moment - but you can hope.
And the comments quoted sound a lot more presidential than "Back of the Queue Obama"
I have found the talking down of our great nation by Cameron and Osborne utterly shocking. It is the sort of preserve of the far left who only see the bad of our nation. Osborne has morphed into Corbyn before our eyes with nothing good to say about our country.
This country that has steel in its bones. That does not waver and just gets on with the job and does what needs to be done. We won't be bullied into submission. Remain's campaign of fear may work on lesser nations but it won't work on mine, it deserves to lose.
Trashing the economy to reduce immigration is not a smart plan, for anyone (except the elite, who will be fine)
Of course they might not be able to get such bills through Parliament, which is an issue of a different sort
I'm stunned that sensible centrist posters on here such as @kle4 are pledging to vote Leave, despite knowing the damage it will do. It's utterly bizarre. Like some great sleepwalking drug has been sprayed upon the masses.
UK Outlook for Monday 20 Jun 2016 to Wednesday 29 Jun 2016:
Cloud and outbreaks of rain will spread across most parts early next week, followed by a mixture of sunshine and showers. The remainder of the week will remain unsettled and often windy with bands of rain pushing east, these interspersed with brighter, though showery conditions. The heaviest rain and most frequent showers will be in the north and west and the best of any drier spells in the east and southeast. Into the weekend and following week it will remain generally unsettled with the most frequent spells of rain across northwestern parts and generally drier and brighter weather in the southeast. Temperatures will be generally around normal, with the warmest temperatures likely in the south.
I do not think you realise how many of the CDE class have had their wages squeezed and their standard of living reduced - and that is the backlash you are now facing.
Mr. mark, most people will want Juncker to Focke off.
Henning Wehn has a good joke....Some people say the British hate foreigners, but actually I have always found them very tolerant people...they might not love us, but they definitely tolerant us.
The issue with any last minute offer is that, based on the Telegraph front page, even the tabled deal that Cameron negotiated is illegal.
That immediately raises the next issue. If Remain do win and Dave's deal is struck down, where on earth do we go from there?
Today's anecdota, Daughters boyfriends family (all three sons in the forces) have split 4/1 Leave/Remain, with Dad being the sole Remainer (he works for the local council).
Shadsy clearly doesn't believe the polls!
Quite right. I don't buy this free pass argument the Leavers seem to be promoting. "Oh it won't happen for two years so everything will be fine."
As you say Carlotta, businesses will plan ahead. Why the hell otherwise are majors like Unilever and Tata writing to their staff?
Sadly, the sensible moderates from both sides of the political divide on this forum are being drowned out by the hard-left and the hard-right, who have all the best tunes. I can only hope some of the people who have got carried away by their populism come to their senses.
But I don't think they will. To see kle4, Charles and Rochdale pledging for Leave is utterly depressing. I had even hoped SeanT would see sense eventually. But no.
And as for the economic effects, this is far from certain. For example, if the pound falls as everyone keeps predicting that might actually boost our economy with more exports. Let's not forget that until a few years ago the BOE was spending millions in QE deliberately trying to get the pound to fall.
GE2015: Project Fear of Alex Salmond and his mates
London: Project Fear of muslims.
EU Ref: Project Fear of economy ver 2.
LOL. TSE: The man who moves markets
*Still an awful poll for Remain.
And so people become unhappy with themselves and their lot, and they blame the change in society. Its hard to blame Apple (other purveyors of pointless tat are available) or the X Factor or the establishment who have changed things in small increments for the worse over a long period. Its easy to blame the visual change and that means foreigners.
Free movement of Labour has been a disaster. For Western Europe it has suppressed wages and conditions, and led to massive unemployment and underemployment. For eastern Europe their brightest and most industrious have ditched their own country to work in Starbucks on minimum wage in the west.
And thats even on doorsteps in places with minimal migration its all about migration. To sneer at anyone raising it as an issue, to tell them they don't know what they are talking about, to call them racist is the problem. The established political parties have given up engaging with people and instead offer what Galloway described as two cheeks of the same arse - whatever you think your issues are you are wrong, anyway you have no choice.
People do have a choice. Democracy is revolution. As we're about to witness in full efect.
And it coincides with Leave overtaking Remain.
I'm backing England to win by 2 or more goals vs Wales today:
Back England to win by 2 goals at 4.5 with Betfair Sportsbook, staking 55%
Back England to win by 3+ goals at 5.5 with Betfair Sportsbook, staking 45%
If either element proves successful, the net winning odds are 2.475, i.e. just shy of 6/4.
Come on you England!
DYOR.
In other words, we need snookers.
I have lived abroad on the Continent, speak two languages, have a job totally based on trade, will be in France early on the 24th to enjoy its delights (so staying up on the count night is a bit of a bugger!), and would look forward to many such future visits in total friendship and cooperation with our neighbours. I harbour zero animosity to those that have come here under the rules as they are. Not their fault the rules are nuts. They deserve our protection and welcome as much as "native" Brits do in our society. but:-
1) It is not xenophobic to question if the system we have is still fit for purpose. If we sweep that under the carpet as so many in Parliament have for years problems multiply.
2) I bitterly resent being treated like a bleedin' idiot by successive Govts on this issue. The past three weeks have just been the culmination of so much over the years.
Not sure still who's going to win, and whoever does they need to respect and take into account the views of those on the other side, however, tarring us as brainless xenophobic idiots is not helping Remain's cause a jot.
I was asleep an hour ago until someone rang me and said 'Our poll is about to be published on the standard website now.'
This might not have been my finest hour.
This alone is probably driving much of the working class protest.
We've had 15 years of the lower-paid, working classes being labelled (in a backhanded way, of course) as racist or bigoted (see Gordon Brown and Ms Duffy)... but it's never been the people us working classes have complained about, it's the drop in living standards/job security for us and our children.
The EU, of course, isn't entirely to blame for this. But this election is a golden chance to hit back hard in the polling booths.
That still means this is very close.
Voting Leave is self-inflicted economic chaos for years.
Yes, it's possible that you, Boris and Nige have it right and we are all wrong. You are right, it's possible.
We are indeed about to see democracy in action.
Leave lead among likely voters = 6%
Leave lead among all voters = 2%
Apologies again.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-do-want-to-leave-one-week-to-go-before-eu-referendum-vote-a3273141.html
61% of people don't beliebe Northern Ireland security would be put at risk from Brexit. 21% do think it would be put at risk.
Powerful stuff.
I'll be buying you a few drinks after this. You've worked bloody hard.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
Most of the posters here are intelligent reasonable folk. Fit a trend line onto that graph. Then come back here and keep screaming "Racist! Racist! Racist!" at the people that have been most affected by that trend. If you dare.
I've said before that quoting statistics about GDP and employment rates is counter-productive. Many of us have made out like gangbusters since 2008. Big whoop. There are still 1.7 million odd people out of work (not all long term obviously), of which about 650,000 are young people. It's not been a universal economic miracle.
According to betfair, there's a ~5.5% chance the next POTUS is neither Hillary or Trump.
Gary Johnson makes up just 5% of that 5%. His odds should be lower, IMO.
It'll be interesting to see whose prediction wins the competition. At this rate, Ave It will be triumphant.
WAKE UP.