People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
If Britain votes Leave next week, the following day there would be much ringing of bells among pb's Greek chorus of Leavers. As and when the wheels fell off, however, there would be a shuffling away and many, probably including some of the most ardent Leavers at present, would claim that this was not what they voted for.
Tough.
1. You haven't answered my question.
2. Inevitably no one will get what they voted for precisely because that isn't the way any vote works.
My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable.
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
I personally think Brexit will unravel in weeks. After moments of jubilation, then what...... Britain plunged into recession, still no control on immigration, and tax receipts falling as quickly as a whore's drawers.
And it hits perfectly for those millions of Brits off to the Costa Del Sol realising their cheap holidays are no longer more.
A Brexit vote will be one of those what were we thinking moments?
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Yes, and all those destinations cost the same amount of money of course. You really do write the most dreadful tosh.
On my UK passport I can travel to 175 countries, either visa free or visa on arrival. That includes all but two countries in the Americas, all of India and SE Asia and sundry African countries, a bunch of countries in the Middle East. Oh, and I suppose, any EU country. And the Ukraine.
I suppose in your alternative reality, we'll make every visitor go through a multi-year visa program. Heh.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Any deal we sign will be as binding as the current one.
No it absolutely won't. It will be a treaty between sovereign states and remains binding as long as both agree to be bound by it. In contrast we are currently subject to EU law and cannot change it the way that we want to.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I genuinely suggest that in the medium-long term this country, outside of the EU, will be a great independent trading power once more, something like a big version of Singapore or Switzerland (but maritime). And our entrepreneurs will flourish.
Out of curiosity, is there any alarm in the European press about how close Leave are getting? And given we are told (mostly by leavers it has to be said) about the rise of those angry at the elite establishment, are the local populations actually not that bothered about that (Ive seen polls saying they don't want us to leave, but that could be for financial reasons).
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
If things go poorly, I've no doubt that will be right.
How can things not go poorly when half the country is trying to work out how to disengage itself from the EU rather than doing productive work? FDI won't exactly be soaring either; quite the opposite: the EU will also be busy disengaging from the UK.
There will undoubtedly be economic hits in the short term. How big and how sustained is where the questions lie, and it is there if things go poorly the memories of Leavers will shift.
Any deal we sign will be as binding as the current one.
No, you cannot compare a bilateral trade deal with membership of the EU. The latter is a whole lot more entangled and "permanent".
We don't know until it's agreed. There is a two year notice period to leave the EU, extendable by mutual agreement. Why wouldn't there be something similar for a deal that clearly won't be just another bilateral trade deal?
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
Speaking for the high house price tory base, not any more, not by a long long way.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Well why not just take the vote away from these horrible Brits, the hateful scum. So unlike the elegant, friendly Italians! - who had a popular Fascist government in living memory.
God you are a narcissistic prick. You're me without the sad, boozy hints of self awareness.
Rather like how Tyson eulogised Italy's animal welfare laws and how they were far superior to Britain's.
And then people who knew the facts pointed out they were in fact much worse.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
On second thoughts maybe don't get campaigning!!
lol.
Meeks epitomises everything wrong with REMAIN. A kind of intellectual toddler, who will fling his poo at all the stupid people if he doesn't get special nursery rhymes.
Yes I am beginning to be of the view that Leave deserve to win regardless of the result, they are clearly putting in the effort and working hard to win, Remain are already beginning to sneer at the plebs rather than actually bother to try and convince them (apart from TSE of course). That said, I still think Remain will scrape home, by which I really do mean scrape home by barely 1%, when the undecideds enter the privacy of the polling booth and are not ready to take the risk of voting Leave
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Well why not just take the vote away from these horrible Brits, the hateful scum. So unlike the elegant, friendly Italians! - who had a popular Fascist government in living memory.
God you are a narcissistic prick. You're me without the sad, boozy hints of self awareness.
I still think Tyson might be an elaborate and very clever ruse. 'I was *overcome* by a *hint* of sadness' - I mean it's funny. Cleverly, artfully, ghastly. 'Young, vibrant Italians!'
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I genuinely suggest that in the medium-long term this country, outside of the EU, will be a great independent trading power once more, something like a big version of Singapore or Switzerland (but maritime). And our entrepreneurs will flourish.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
You could always have them as you previously stated "disenfranchised " if they don't vote as you want them too.
By the way you seem a tad tired and emotional tonight. Little bit to much of the Tuscan Grape juice perhaps?
If we brexit will it be Blair's final legacy? I think yes since he was so keen to get the former soviet states into the E.U.
It's part of the natural cycle. 1999 and the launch of the Euro was the high water mark of the EU. They ignored the lessons of history and didn't consolidate the member debts in the eurozone which the had to do to make it viable long term. Since then its been one long agonising decline - the anti-democratic nature of the Lisbon treaty, ignoring the convergence criteria for countries like Greece, tearing up the no bail out clause in the Euro, and not having a clue what to do about the migration patterns across the EU thanks to the failure of the Euro.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
Those you have not learnt the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes.
Those who have leaned the lessons of history, have to stand around and watch those who haven't repeat the mistakes.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
A Europe of trading nation states was tried before and led to the most suicidal war Europe has seen in its history.
If as I assume you're referring to the pre-1914 period, one of the main contributory factors to WW1 was the lack of democracy and the stupid rivalries within the ruling royal families. And what would have happened if the Archduke Ferdinand's driver hadn't taken the wrong turn in Sarajevo? Well I still think we would have gone to war ultimately given the rivalries involved....but that's a debate for another day.
"stupid rivalries within the ruling royal families."
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
Speaking for the high house price tory base, not any more, not by a long long way.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
Hmmm. We'll see. The EU has not been stopping the Tories from doing anything about it for the last few years, but they haven't. Are there plans to end the current purchasing of homes in London by absentee forein buyers that were such a characteristic of Boris Johnson's time as mayor?
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
Speaking for the high house price tory base, not any more, not by a long long way.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
We don't even have the decency to pop our clogs at the right time to give our kids their inheritances any more. Cue Logan's run.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
If Bogdan is on minimum wage making coffee, why did he get the job over John or Janet?
Bogdan is willing to do a low paid job for a few years so he can then return home and buy a house.
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
I personally think Brexit will unravel in weeks. After moments of jubilation, then what...... Britain plunged into recession, still no control on immigration, and tax receipts falling as quickly as a whore's drawers.
And it hits perfectly for those millions of Brits off to the Costa Del Sol realising their cheap holidays are no longer more.
A Brexit vote will be one of those what were we thinking moments?
Condescending, much?
It HAS to fail, because, errr, I disagree with it, and it is increasingly popular amongst Brits. Oh, and WACISM!
Out of curiosity, is there any alarm in the European press about how close Leave are getting? And given we are told (mostly by leavers it has to be said) about the rise of those angry at the elite establishment, are the local populations actually not that bothered about that (Ive seen polls saying they don't want us to leave, but that could be for financial reasons).
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
If things go poorly, I've no doubt that will be right.
How can things not go poorly when half the country is trying to work out how to disengage itself from the EU rather than doing productive work? FDI won't exactly be soaring either; quite the opposite: the EU will also be busy disengaging from the UK.
There will undoubtedly be economic hits in the short term. How big and how sustained is where the questions lie, and it is there if things go poorly the memories of Leavers will shift.
I don't think the European media and elite really believed LEAVE could happen until about a week ago. So it was a passing concern.
Since then - on my cursory, Google-translate observation of the scene - they have suddenly become very exercised, and very alarmed.
Reminds me of another referendum with another righteous minority... more turnips though
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
I personally think Brexit will unravel in weeks. After moments of jubilation, then what...... Britain plunged into recession, still no control on immigration, and tax receipts falling as quickly as a whore's drawers.
And it hits perfectly for those millions of Brits off to the Costa Del Sol realising their cheap holidays are no longer more.
A Brexit vote will be one of those what were we thinking moments?
Amazed at how people can be taken so much in by government propaganda (to an extent beyond that even desired by the said government).
Goebbels would have loved to have more of your sort.
Bogdan will work all the hours, keep his head down and not complain about poor working conditions. Bogdan also lives four to a room. But it's better than the six in a room back home, no power cuts, indoor toilet, hot and cold running water. Bogdan is the toast of his village back in Romania.
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Well why not just take the vote away from these horrible Brits, the hateful scum. So unlike the elegant, friendly Italians! - who had a popular Fascist government in living memory.
God you are a narcissistic prick. You're me without the sad, boozy hints of self awareness.
Rather like how Tyson eulogised Italy's animal welfare laws and how they were far superior to Britain's.
And then people who knew the facts pointed out they were in fact much worse.
Or the way England football fans were awful Nazi thugs, until we realised that it was Russians and French ultras that started it, and England fans were dying. At which point he simply stopped discussing it, instead of apologising. The man is a c*nt. Sometimes only the Anglo-Saxon monosyllable will suffice.
Isn't it derived from the Latin word cunnus ?
I'm not sure what the Anglo-Saxon (or modern German) equivalent is.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
That's difference between democratic and autocratic approaches. For the most part I have not seen a Brexitier refuse to engage if Remain wins but I have seen plenty of Remainers refuse to accept a Leave decision. Just look at this thread alone to see for yourself.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
If Britain votes Leave next week, the following day there would be much ringing of bells among pb's Greek chorus of Leavers. As and when the wheels fell off, however, there would be a shuffling away and many, probably including some of the most ardent Leavers at present, would claim that this was not what they voted for.
Tough.
1. You haven't answered my question.
2. Inevitably no one will get what they voted for precisely because that isn't the way any vote works.
My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable.
So you would (for example) reduce Government funding in the event of a recession to areas with a high proportion of Leave voters?
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Out of curiosity, is there any alarm in the European press about how close Leave are getting? And given we are told (mostly by leavers it has to be said) about the rise of those angry at the elite establishment, are the local populations actually not that bothered about that (Ive seen polls saying they don't want us to leave, but that could be for financial reasons).
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
If things go poorly, I've no doubt that will be right.
How can things not go poorly when half the country is trying to work out how to disengage itself from the EU rather than doing productive work? FDI won't exactly be soaring either; quite the opposite: the EU will also be busy disengaging from the UK.
There will undoubtedly be economic hits in the short term. How big and how sustained is where the questions lie, and it is there if things go poorly the memories of Leavers will shift.
I don't think the European media and elite really believed LEAVE could happen until about a week ago. So it was a passing concern.
Since then - on my cursory, Google-translate observation of the scene - they have suddenly become very exercised, and very alarmed.
At our conference in Barcelona last week there was genuine disbelief when I told people - American and European - that a Leave win was likely. Literally no-one had considered it possible. The Spanish newspapers reported from a similar standpoint. I suspect will get some very paniced reactions over the coming days and the week after we vote Brexit will be carnage.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
On second thoughts maybe don't get campaigning!!
lol.
Meeks epitomises everything wrong with REMAIN. A kind of intellectual toddler, who will fling his poo at all the stupid people if he doesn't get special nursery rhymes.
Yes I am beginning to be of the view that Leave deserve to win regardless of the result, they are clearly putting in the effort and working hard to win, Remain are already beginning to sneer at the plebs rather than actually bother to try and convince them (apart from TSE of course). That said, I still think Remain will scrape home, by which I really do mean scrape home by barely 1%, when the undecideds enter the privacy of the polling booth and are not ready to take the risk of voting Leave
Hopefully the undecideds will just stay home.
How's the weather looking for next week Thursday?
weatheraction.com website (Piers Corbyn) currently down but IIRC he said it was going to be showery which favours leave.
And this great article on Piers appeared in the Guardian of all places:
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Any deal we sign will be as binding as the current one.
No it absolutely won't. It will be a treaty between sovereign states and remains binding as long as both agree to be bound by it. In contrast we are currently subject to EU law and cannot change it the way that we want to.
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
If we brexit will it be Blair's final legacy? I think yes since he was so keen to get the former soviet states into the E.U.
It's part of the natural cycle. 1999 and the launch of the Euro was the high water mark of the EU. They ignored the lessons of history and didn't consolidate the member debts in the eurozone which the had to do to make it viable long term. Since then its been one long agonising decline - the anti-democratic nature of the Lisbon treaty, ignoring the convergence criteria for countries like Greece, tearing up the no bail out clause in the Euro, and not having a clue what to do about the migration patterns across the EU thanks to the failure of the Euro.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
Those you have not learnt the lessons of history are bound to repeat the mistakes.
Those who have leaned the lessons of history, have to stand around and watch those who haven't repeat the mistakes.
Absolutely. Or as the Russians have a saying:
"Those who know their history and nothing but history are blind in one eye. Those who know no history are blind in both eyes"
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
Barbara Castle was a firm leaver.
Yes. We are back to the Seventies in reverse; with working class opposition to the EU and weathly folk in favour, only the parties seem to have got in front of the wrong mobs. So we have working class Leavers being led by an Old Etonian, and posh financiers being led by trade unionists.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Waterloo was a perfect example of a European Union coming together and delivering peace to Europe.
Bogdan will work all the hours, keep his head down and not complain about poor working conditions. Bogdan also lives four to a room. But it's better than the six in a room back home, no power cuts, indoor toilet, hot and cold running water. Bogdan is the toast of his village back in Romania.
Only the first is relevant as to why he was given the job over John. I suspect many employers will tell you that they gave the job to Bogdan because he had a better attitude to work.
And aren't the working hours overseen by the dreaded red tape of Brussels?
Some interesting info on the way the single market works, both for EU countries and those poor barbarians who dwell outside the borders of our European paradise.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
Its quite a contrast between Tyson's desire to blame any football violence on English people and his support for keeping the Cologne's sex attacks covered up.
I apologised to tyson a few weeks ago for my being a bit of a berk.
I'd like to unreservedly non-apologise and de-apologise to tyson, as of now. He is a morally unflushable human turd, floating in the lavatory pan of his moral self regard.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
A Europe of trading nation states was tried before and led to the most suicidal war Europe has seen in its history.
If as I assume you're referring to the pre-1914 period, one of the main contributory factors to WW1 was the lack of democracy and the stupid rivalries within the ruling royal families. And what would have happened if the Archduke Ferdinand's driver hadn't taken the wrong turn in Sarajevo? Well I still think we would have gone to war ultimately given the rivalries involved....but that's a debate for another day.
"stupid rivalries within the ruling royal families."
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Well why not just take the vote away from these horrible Brits, the hateful scum. So unlike the elegant, friendly Italians! - who had a popular Fascist government in living memory.
God you are a narcissistic prick. You're me without the sad, boozy hints of self awareness.
OK- don't you think there is some way we could meet in the middle on this one. Italians drinking and food culture is probably better and healthier than ours; their young people are slightly better behaved but we could teach them a few lessons on liberty and freedom.
Italy is a highly bureaucratic country where the legacy of fascism still lingers. Give me the choice and I'd choose the UK over Italy a million times over- despite the food, the weather, the wine, the sea, the history, the mountains, the light. Italy is the most spectacularly beautiful country to grace this world. It has too much of everything, but the UK has everything else. I would love to see the opportunity of us both sharing our cultures and peoples to the full.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
If Bogdan is on minimum wage making coffee, why did he get the job over John or Janet?
1. Janet and John probably feel they're better off on the dole, but the job would offer more than minimum wage if Bogdan wouldn't do it for minimum wage.
2. Bogdan is probably better educated and motivated. UK people of his qualifications get better paid jobs here.
Go on, sneer at Janet and John, that'll get their vote. (That's been Labour's policy anyway)
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
Barbara Castle was a firm leaver.
Yes. We are back to the Seventies in reverse; with working class opposition to the EU and weathly folk in favour, only the parties seem to have got in front of the wrong mobs. So we have working class Leavers being led by an Old Etonian, and posh financiers being led by trade unionists.
One of Remain's problem is that they've not given a positive view about the EU.
Instead we had Stuart Rose equating the EU with lower pay for workers and assuming everyone thought that was a good thing.
This is what I mean about the Remain campaign being farcically ill-suited to working-class Labour voters (who they were relying on for victory).
If you want to get the low-paid "strivers" on side, you don't roll out a succession of mega-rich businessmen extolling the virtues of "efficient labour costs" and "less barriers to make profits".
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Waterloo was a perfect example of a European Union coming together and delivering peace to Europe.
The current EU is a modern day Seventh Coalition
Well at least someone is keeping up a sense of humour.
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
Well why not just take the vote away from these horrible Brits, the hateful scum. So unlike the elegant, friendly Italians! - who had a popular Fascist government in living memory.
God you are a narcissistic prick. You're me without the sad, boozy hints of self awareness.
OK- don't you think there is some way we could meet in the middle on this one. Italians drinking and food culture is probably better and healthier than ours; their young people are slightly better behaved but we could teach them a few lessons on liberty and freedom.
Italy is a highly bureaucratic country where the legacy of fascism still lingers. Give me the choice and I'd choose the UK over Italy a million times over- despite the food, the weather, the wine, the sea, the history, the mountains, the light. Italy is the most spectacularly beautiful country to grace this world. It has too much of everything, but the UK has everything else. I would love to see the opportunity of us both sharing our cultures and peoples to the full.
Better IN than OUT
That's much better. I'm genuinely interested in details of Italian passports and what visa-waiver/visa-free/visa-on-arrival programs holders are entitled to. Because based on your remarks, I'm terribly worried about their opportunities for travel.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Waterloo was a perfect example of a European Union coming together and delivering peace to Europe.
The current EU is a modern day Seventh Coalition
Well at least someone is keeping up a sense of humour.
Good night
My sense of humour will be on display in all its glory in the morning thread.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
If Bogdan is on minimum wage making coffee, why did he get the job over John or Janet?
1. Janet and John probably feel they're better off on the dole, but the job would offer more than minimum wage if Bogdan wouldn't do it for minimum wage.
2. Bogdan is probably better educated and motivated. UK people of his qualifications get better paid jobs here.
Go on, sneer at Janet and John, that'll get their vote. (That's been Labour's policy anyway)
I'm not sneering. I'm asking a legitimate question.
One of Remain's problem is that they've not given a positive view about the EU.
Instead we had Stuart Rose equating the EU with lower pay for workers and assuming everyone thought that was a good thing.
This is what I mean about the Remain campaign being farcically ill-suited to working-class Labour voters (who they were relying on for victory).
If you want to get the low-paid "strivers" on side, you don't roll out a succession of mega-rich businessmen extolling the virtues of "efficient labour costs" and "less barriers to make profits".
My pro tip of the day for Remain.
Try and find someone who isn't actually a millionaire (or better) to make the case to the Labour voters.
Bogdan will work all the hours, keep his head down and not complain about poor working conditions. Bogdan also lives four to a room. But it's better than the six in a room back home, no power cuts, indoor toilet, hot and cold running water. Bogdan is the toast of his village back in Romania.
Only the first is relevant as to why he was given the job over John. I suspect many employers will tell you that they gave the job to Bogdan because he had a better attitude to work.
And aren't the working hours overseen by the dreaded red tape of Brussels?
No i have a Lithuanian in my workplace doing 15 12 hour shifts in a row. The boss loves him.
"AlastairMeeks said: My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable."
It's like a Tory minister saying we should abolish the NHS, but only in Labour voting constituencies. So they suffer for their stupidity.
What madness is this. We are all Britons. I am literally astounded.
We're seeing a fundamental difference between Leavers and Remainers.
Leavers preference the people of their country rather than class as part of their 'family'
Remainers preference the people of their class rather than their country as part of their 'family'.
I suspect many of the AB Leavers are from working class backgrounds or live in working class areas or are employed in working class industries.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
If Britain votes Leave next week, the following day there would be much ringing of bells among pb's Greek chorus of Leavers. As and when the wheels fell off, however, there would be a shuffling away and many, probably including some of the most ardent Leavers at present, would claim that this was not what they voted for.
Tough.
1. You haven't answered my question.
2. Inevitably no one will get what they voted for precisely because that isn't the way any vote works.
My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable.
Well, your not in parliament let alone government so who cares what you think?
"AlastairMeeks said: My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable."
It's like a Tory minister saying we should abolish the NHS, but only in Labour voting constituencies. So they suffer for their stupidity.
What madness is this. We are all Britons. I am literally astounded.
But surely that's unfair to the brave souls of Beverley, Clacton and the IOW who did the RIGHT THING and voted Remain. Why should they suffer? Could Leavers not be identified in some way - a simple armband or piece of fabric worn on the sleeve perhaps?
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
Of course they could unilaterally withdraw from the EEA treaty. The damage that would do to their economies and their reputation would be vast and would inevitably lead to more countries doing likewise. Sweden and Denmark simply wouldn't stay in an EU which did not have a Single Market agreement with Norway not least because they comprehensively share things like telecoms and energy supply. Finland and Ireland would almost certainly follow.
If you really think that the other EU countries are that dumb then why the hell do you want to be part of the EU with them?
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Waterloo was a perfect example of a European Union coming together and delivering peace to Europe.
The current EU is a modern day Seventh Coalition
Well at least someone is keeping up a sense of humour.
Good night
My sense of humour will be on display in all its glory in the morning thread.
Saw a large vote leave sign on the M40 both ways between J11 and J12 in the very south part of Warwickshire over the weekend - has anyone else seen it?
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
Schauble is expecting us to rejoin if we leave. Check out his interview. If we can't rejoin, what the heck is Article 49 all about?
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I thought you're heading to Paris?
Only temporarily for a few weeks, whilst everything is set up.
Ah - got the wrong end of the stick there!
There would be a diplomatic incident were I to stay in France any long period.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
Quite.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Waterloo was a perfect example of a European Union coming together and delivering peace to Europe.
The current EU is a modern day Seventh Coalition
Well at least someone is keeping up a sense of humour.
Good night
My sense of humour will be on display in all its glory in the morning thread.
Lots to offer the average PUNter?
No puns, just a shocking/disgusting analogy that will have you reaching for the mind bleach.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
Not impossible to rejoin, but not on the cards for at least a generation.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
Its quite a contrast between Tyson's desire to blame any football violence on English people and his support for keeping the Cologne's sex attacks covered up.
I apologised to tyson a few weeks ago for my being a bit of a berk.
I'd like to unreservedly non-apologise and de-apologise to tyson, as of now. He is a morally unflushable human turd, floating in the lavatory pan of his moral self regard.
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
Of course they could unilaterally withdraw from the EEA treaty. The damage that would do to their economies and their reputation would be vast and would inevitably lead to more countries doing likewise. Sweden and Denmark simply wouldn't stay in an EU which did not have a Single Market agreement with Norway not least because they comprehensively share things like telecoms and energy supply. Finland and Ireland would almost certainly follow.
If you really think that the other EU countries are that dumb then why the hell do you want to be part of the EU with them?
They wouldn't be that reckless, but they would have a strategy to impose their view of the world over time.
The 'good deal' that many people think Cameron didn't get might be offered to Norway in return for a new associate membership.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
A more than 60:40 remain vote would have killed the issue for more than a generation. I'm comfortable with leaving forever, arrange your EU mourning ceremony if you wish in the event of a leave vote, just don't expect me to join you.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
The very fact that no British government has ever advocated Leaving is the main problem for many Leavers.
It means that, de facto, this is likely our one chance to depart.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
Not impossible to rejoin, but not on the cards for at least a generation.
De Gaulle vetoed us twice in the first place. After Brexit, no French President could let us back in a second time. It will become a truism that we can't be trusted.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
If Bogdan is on minimum wage making coffee, why did he get the job over John or Janet?
1. Janet and John probably feel they're better off on the dole, but the job would offer more than minimum wage if Bogdan wouldn't do it for minimum wage.
2. Bogdan is probably better educated and motivated. UK people of his qualifications get better paid jobs here.
Go on, sneer at Janet and John, that'll get their vote. (That's been Labour's policy anyway)
Janet and John aren't on the dole. Despite being less highly educated than Bogdan, their native English abilities mean that they are employed at the same company as clerical assistants on higher wages than Bogdan. When Bogdan is sent packing, John will be demoted to coffee maker (on a higher wage than Bogdan, but less than he earned previously). Janet will lose her job - a victim of the crash in demand for the company's EU exports which now attract a 10% tariff.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
The very fact that no British government has ever advocated Leaving is the main problem for many Leavers.
It means that, de facto, this is likely our one chance to depart.
If we have a narrow Remain I think that political taboo will be broken. Mainstream politicians will no longer see it as electoral suicide to openly advocate leaving.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
Speaking for the high house price tory base, not any more, not by a long long way.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
Hmmm. We'll see. The EU has not been stopping the Tories from doing anything about it for the last few years, but they haven't. Are there plans to end the current purchasing of homes in London by absentee forein buyers that were such a characteristic of Boris Johnson's time as mayor?
Yes. But only if we leave because you can't stop them whilst in the EU.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
... And this was the risk of the referendum in the first place. Because whatever we chose, the status quo wouldn't be an option.
The fact is that if we vote Remain, it will be used as an excuse to sign us up to More EU for years and years to come ("well, they had their say...")
"AlastairMeeks said: My point is more one of demos. If we Leave, I would take quite some persuading that we should give assistance to any areas that find the Brexit bed they helped make uncomfortable."
It's like a Tory minister saying we should abolish the NHS, but only in Labour voting constituencies. So they suffer for their stupidity.
What madness is this. We are all Britons. I am literally astounded.
We're seeing a fundamental difference between Leavers and Remainers.
Leavers preference the people of their country rather than class as part of their 'family'
Remainers preference the people of their class rather than their country as part of their 'family'.
I suspect many of the AB Leavers are from working class backgrounds or live in working class areas or are employed in working class industries.
Or maybe Remainers feel that the people of their country would be better off if we stayed inside the EU. They may not be right, but it's possible they are motivated by exactly the same thing as Leavers.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Yes and no. The EU can do any old deal with Norway and nobody will get all that fussed. They will not want to give Britain a helpful deal to avoid other major countries getting similar ideas. A deal will eventually be done, of course, but expect it to take years and have rough edges when it finally materialises.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
If we stay, we can leave at any moment we choose. If we leave, it will be impossible for us ever to rejoin. Leave is for life, not just for Christmas.
The very fact that no British government has ever advocated Leaving is the main problem for many Leavers.
It means that, de facto, this is likely our one chance to depart.
If we have a narrow Remain I think that political taboo will be broken. Mainstream politicians will no longer see it as electoral suicide to openly advocate leaving.
Ah, thats ok then
CDEs will just wait until the next election. Then they're bound to be able to Leave.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
Speaking for the high house price tory base, not any more, not by a long long way.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
Hmmm. We'll see. The EU has not been stopping the Tories from doing anything about it for the last few years, but they haven't. Are there plans to end the current purchasing of homes in London by absentee forein buyers that were such a characteristic of Boris Johnson's time as mayor?
Yes. But only if we leave because you can't stop them whilst in the EU.
Really? The EU prevents us requiring that the Chinese or Saudis who buy property in London spend a certain number of days in those properties each year?
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
Of course they could unilaterally withdraw from the EEA treaty. The damage that would do to their economies and their reputation would be vast and would inevitably lead to more countries doing likewise. Sweden and Denmark simply wouldn't stay in an EU which did not have a Single Market agreement with Norway not least because they comprehensively share things like telecoms and energy supply. Finland and Ireland would almost certainly follow.
If you really think that the other EU countries are that dumb then why the hell do you want to be part of the EU with them?
They wouldn't be that reckless, but they would have a strategy to impose their view of the world over time.
The 'good deal' that many people think Cameron didn't get might be offered to Norway in return for a new associate membership.
Their 6% view (as it would be) compared to the other 94% view.
Their relationship with the EFTA countries is defined and controlled by the EEA Agreement. This is not other EU countries they can boss around nor do the EFTA members want further concessions from the EU. They are content with the relationship as it stands. Norway has incredibly high numbers opposing EU membership - over 70% in the last poll with less than 20% in favour.
As such the EU has two choices. They either break the treaty or they suck it up.
Since the UK joining EFTA and the EEA is the best way to continue trade I very much suspect the suck it up route will be the one taken.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
... And this was the risk of the referendum in the first place. Because whatever we chose, the status quo wouldn't be an option.
The fact is that if we vote Remain, it will be used as an excuse to sign us up to More EU for years and years to come ("well, they had their say...")
It's a very difficult choice for me.
Look at the history of currencies without a consolidated debt like the Euro. That's why staying in the EU would be economically disastrous. The Euro is going to collapse in 2018 / 2019. Capital will flow to the UK within Europe if we're outside the EU. Inside the EU and we will inevitably go down with the Euro.
Less than 238 hours to the exit poll. BeLEAVE. Believe in better.
One of Remain's problem is that they've not given a positive view about the EU.
Instead we had Stuart Rose equating the EU with lower pay for workers and assuming everyone thought that was a good thing.
This is what I mean about the Remain campaign being farcically ill-suited to working-class Labour voters (who they were relying on for victory).
If you want to get the low-paid "strivers" on side, you don't roll out a succession of mega-rich businessmen extolling the virtues of "efficient labour costs" and "less barriers to make profits".
The Remain campaign has been seen as too economics obsessed too. Reinforced the sense that it's the rich global elite who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. This is why Farage gets laughed at by the commentariat for saying he wouldn't mind a hit to the economy from controlled immigration, when I should imagine that is a popular opinion among the country at large.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 28m28 minutes ago Look at the Leave demographic. Look at the Remain demographic. Then match them against election turnouts.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
Barbara Castle was a firm leaver.
Yes. We are back to the Seventies in reverse; with working class opposition to the EU and weathly folk in favour, only the parties seem to have got in front of the wrong mobs. So we have working class Leavers being led by an Old Etonian, and posh financiers being led by trade unionists.
Its gonna be like a large scale Freaky Friday.
Well yes, but it isn't quite like that. Close though.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 28m28 minutes ago Look at the Leave demographic. Look at the Remain demographic. Then match them against election turnouts.
Dan's reputation as a sage has taken quite a battering over the last year or so.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Yes and no. The EU can do any old deal with Norway and nobody will get all that fussed. They will not want to give Britain a helpful deal to avoid other major countries getting similar ideas. A deal will eventually be done, of course, but expect it to take years and have rough edges when it finally materialises.
By which time the domino effect of leavers (Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Poland......) will render that analysis redundant. Not to mention our huge trade deficit with the EU which gives us the bullet poker hand and not 72 off like the remainers would want us to believe.
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
Of course they could unilaterally withdraw from the EEA treaty. The damage that would do to their economies and their reputation would be vast and would inevitably lead to more countries doing likewise. Sweden and Denmark simply wouldn't stay in an EU which did not have a Single Market agreement with Norway not least because they comprehensively share things like telecoms and energy supply. Finland and Ireland would almost certainly follow.
If you really think that the other EU countries are that dumb then why the hell do you want to be part of the EU with them?
They wouldn't be that reckless, but they would have a strategy to impose their view of the world over time.
The 'good deal' that many people think Cameron didn't get might be offered to Norway in return for a new associate membership.
Their 6% view (as it would be) compared to the other 94% view.
Their relationship with the EFTA countries is defined and controlled by the EEA Agreement. This is not other EU countries they can boss around nor do the EFTA members want further concessions from the EU. They are content with the relationship as it stands. Norway has incredibly high numbers opposing EU membership - over 70% in the last poll with less than 20% in favour.
As such the EU has two choices. They either break the treaty or they suck it up.
Since the UK joining EFTA and the EEA is the best way to continue trade I very much suspect the suck it up route will be the one taken.
Would EFTA call their bluff if they said, "Either you block UK membership or we pull the plug on the treaty. Otherwise it's join the EU or nothing?" (And they could make the EU option as attractive as they want.)
As an aside, funnily enough the current EFTA treaty explicitly has our withdrawal from it included in the text.
If Leave wins, I think that the biggest factor in all this is one thing.
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There is no STATUS QUO in this election. The choice is more EU (European Army, EU tax number and harmonised (higher) corporation tax rates and more EU contributions to pay towards Euro bailouts as we have already done with Greece) or leave the EU (get our sovereignty back, a free trade deal with the EU area will emerge despite the scaremongering, and free ourselves from excessive regulation and be in a better position to negotiate more favourable trade deals with non-EU countries)
... And this was the risk of the referendum in the first place. Because whatever we chose, the status quo wouldn't be an option.
The fact is that if we vote Remain, it will be used as an excuse to sign us up to More EU for years and years to come ("well, they had their say...")
It's a very difficult choice for me.
Look at the history of currencies without a consolidated debt like the Euro. That's why staying in the EU would be economically disastrous. The Euro is going to collapse in 2018 / 2019. Capital will flow to the UK within Europe if we're outside the EU. Inside the EU and we will inevitably go down with the Euro.
Less than 238 hours to the exit poll. BeLEAVE. Believe in better.
Comments
I personally think Brexit will unravel in weeks. After moments of jubilation, then what......
Britain plunged into recession, still no control on immigration, and tax receipts falling as quickly as a whore's drawers.
And it hits perfectly for those millions of Brits off to the Costa Del Sol realising their cheap holidays are no longer more.
A Brexit vote will be one of those what were we thinking moments?
On my UK passport I can travel to 175 countries, either visa free or visa on arrival. That includes all but two countries in the Americas, all of India and SE Asia and sundry African countries, a bunch of countries in the Middle East. Oh, and I suppose, any EU country. And the Ukraine.
I suppose in your alternative reality, we'll make every visitor go through a multi-year visa program. Heh.
The concern now is that the children will never be able to buy.
And then people who knew the facts pointed out they were in fact much worse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2635167#outlook
(Nods to the men coming with straightjackets!)
By the way you seem a tad tired and emotional tonight. Little bit to much of the Tuscan Grape juice perhaps?
Those who have leaned the lessons of history, have to stand around and watch those who haven't repeat the mistakes.
Who were all cousins.
John and Janet can't.
This is not Bogdan's fault I point out.
It HAS to fail, because, errr, I disagree with it, and it is increasingly popular amongst Brits. Oh, and WACISM!
Goebbels would have loved to have more of your sort.
Bogdan will work all the hours, keep his head down and not complain about poor working conditions.
Bogdan also lives four to a room. But it's better than the six in a room back home, no power cuts, indoor toilet, hot and cold running water.
Bogdan is the toast of his village back in Romania.
I'm not sure what the Anglo-Saxon (or modern German) equivalent is.
As any longstanding PBer will tell you, I'm not exactly a Francophile.
And this great article on Piers appeared in the Guardian of all places:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/24/piers-corbyn-other-rebel-in-the-family-jeremy-corbyn-climate-change
Cameron's approach to this whole escapade.
He's called it spectacularly wrong.
I could have seen a more eurosceptic Remain argument from the PM, focussed more on pragmatism, holding more of a sway with swing voters. People might have believed it came with some principle.
As it is, he's jumped whole heartedly into the Pro-EU camp and despite his protestations, he comes across as a Brussels pawn and totally insincere. A man who was attacking the EU a few months ago has turned into its most vocal supporter. It has reinforced everything about the negative perception people had of him - that he's a PR and spin man, selling a position rather than believing in it for the good of the nation.
I thought he was a better tactician than that.
I'm genuinely still on the fence. But no single factor has pushed me closer to Leave more than the way Cameron and Remain have handled this referendum.
There might be a few more opportunities for an old Etonian to rout the French and save Britain in coming negotiations....
:-)
Think like a Eurocrat for a moment. Until now you've regarded EFTA as a relic of a former era that would eventually whither away as, over a long enough timescale, the members gradually joined the EU. At which point EFTA can be disbanded and the EEA treaty becomes simply part of the acquis communautaire.
Suddenly a big, geopolitically important country comes along and says it wants to swap the EU for EFTA. That's a pretty hostile move from their perspective and you can't expect to do it without an aggressive response.
"Those who know their history and nothing but history are blind in one eye. Those who know no history are blind in both eyes"
Its gonna be like a large scale Freaky Friday.
The current EU is a modern day Seventh Coalition
And aren't the working hours overseen by the dreaded red tape of Brussels?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/not-only-can-britain-can-leave-the-eu-and-have-access-to-the-sin/
Some interesting info on the way the single market works, both for EU countries and those poor barbarians who dwell outside the borders of our European paradise.
Italy is a highly bureaucratic country where the legacy of fascism still lingers. Give me the choice and I'd choose the UK over Italy a million times over- despite the food, the weather, the wine, the sea, the history, the mountains, the light. Italy is the most spectacularly beautiful country to grace this world. It has too much of everything, but the UK has everything else. I would love to see the opportunity of us both sharing our cultures and peoples to the full.
Better IN than OUT
2. Bogdan is probably better educated and motivated. UK people of his qualifications get better paid jobs here.
Go on, sneer at Janet and John, that'll get their vote. (That's been Labour's policy anyway)
If you want to get the low-paid "strivers" on side, you don't roll out a succession of mega-rich businessmen extolling the virtues of "efficient labour costs" and "less barriers to make profits".
How's the weather looking for next week Thursday?
weatheraction.com website (Piers Corbyn) currently down but IIRC he said it was going to be showery which favours leave.
And this great article on Piers appeared in the Guardian of all places:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/24/piers-corbyn-other-rebel-in-the-family-jeremy-corbyn-climate-change
Warm and Sunny
Good night
Try and find someone who isn't actually a millionaire (or better) to make the case to the Labour voters.
Night night all.
The boss loves him.
Leavers preference the people of their country rather than class as part of their 'family'
Remainers preference the people of their class rather than their country as part of their 'family'.
I suspect many of the AB Leavers are from working class backgrounds or live in working class areas or are employed in working class industries.
If you really think that the other EU countries are that dumb then why the hell do you want to be part of the EU with them?
There are no absolutes in international politics.
The 'good deal' that many people think Cameron didn't get might be offered to Norway in return for a new associate membership.
It means that, de facto, this is likely our one chance to depart.
The fact is that if we vote Remain, it will be used as an excuse to sign us up to More EU for years and years to come ("well, they had their say...")
It's a very difficult choice for me.
CDEs will just wait until the next election. Then they're bound to be able to Leave.
Their relationship with the EFTA countries is defined and controlled by the EEA Agreement. This is not other EU countries they can boss around nor do the EFTA members want further concessions from the EU. They are content with the relationship as it stands. Norway has incredibly high numbers opposing EU membership - over 70% in the last poll with less than 20% in favour.
As such the EU has two choices. They either break the treaty or they suck it up.
Since the UK joining EFTA and the EEA is the best way to continue trade I very much suspect the suck it up route will be the one taken.
Less than 238 hours to the exit poll. BeLEAVE. Believe in better.
Good night all.
Long day, I'll be glad when Mike's back.
Good night
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 28m28 minutes ago
Look at the Leave demographic. Look at the Remain demographic. Then match them against election turnouts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWgqWuJG5Jg
A very good day for leave.
Cameron you deserve this.
But, don't peak to early leave (please).
As an aside, funnily enough the current EFTA treaty explicitly has our withdrawal from it included in the text.