People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Happens every election time, if on a less grand scale.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
Somehow I suspect you'll still reserve the right to call people traitors if they disagree with you. :-)
Just waiting for Remain to drift that bit more with the narrative, eg post the Sun front page being reported in the media might see a bit more tomorrow .. I'm gearing up for a big splurge to back our love of nurse!
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
I'm confused. Is this referring to Leave, or Blair/Brown/Cameron/Osborne?
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
I get a sense that the remain campaign on Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' model are at the Bargaining stage. We had the initial Denial stage when the phone polls began to align with the internet polls a few weeks ago, when the first signs of momentum for the leave campaign that showed up. The last week or 10 days we've had the anger stage - some of the debates on here over that past time period have been amongst the most ferocious and hot headed that I can ever remember on here.
And now we're coming to the bargaining stage - 'surely there must be something that we can offer the wavering leavers and newly committed leavers that will get you back to where you belong in the remain camp?!' I sense those incredulous remain campaigners quietly muttering to themselves.
And then (hopefully as far as I'm concerned) the depression stage will come with the exit poll in just under 240 hours time. And they'll get to the acceptance stage in a fortnight once they've got through the weekend after the result.
There will be no exit poll other than a post vote yougov poll, the result could not be clear until the final result in Manchester
Nope. Several banks and hedge funds have commissioned exit polls. Unless it is incredibly tight, the result will be clear within minutes - on the global Forex and stock markets.
They are not proper exit polls, only the main networks have the capacity to do those and scientifically weight them, the City's polls will be as useful as the final opinion polls
Indeed, there are no bellwether polling stations in a referendum.
John Harris @johnharris1969 4m4 minutes ago #AnywhereButWestminster #EUref film no.1 tmrw morning: has Brexit got core Lab voters in #StokeonTrent? Check out @guardianvideo, 7.30am
I suspect we on PB can guess the answer to John's question.
Stoke-on-Trent is a prime case study in how Labour has lost touch with the WWC. Stoke has one of the lowest ethnic minority populations of all cities in the UK. The Labour majorities when totalled together in the 3 Stoke seats and Newcastle-under-Lyme came to little more than 12,500. Back as recently as 1992 Labour majorities in NUL and the 3 Stoke seats came to around 45,000. I'd expect North Staffordshire to be 60:40 in the favour of leave given the demographics, maybe even more towards leave.
Yes but the Labour party gave them Tristram Hunt as a representative of the people......... Allegedly fixed up by Mandelson.
Stoke Central was already trending away from Labour before Mr Hunt arrived on the scene:
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
I'm an internationalist and think you're completely wrong Alastair. I'm voting Leave partly in order to propel us to an ever greater part on the world stage not as a part of an undemocratic elitist regional club.
The EU had a role to play in the 1970's. It's long gone.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
So much bitterness from certain remainers. Worth considering that us leavers have had to suffer decades of being in the EU, it seems now the mere sniff of a brexit is on the cards certain people are acting like petulant children with baseless accusations and ruining their long built up reputations.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
You sound like one of the Momentum lot. A spoilt child who will take your ball home because someone disagrees with you.
I make a dick of myself every day. I'm used to it. You obviously aren't as used to it as me because you are brainy and sophisticated. But you've made a dick of yourself this past few months.
Enjoy it. Even I manage to have friends and pull women.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
Mr Tyson is refreshingly honest in disliking the downsides of democracy in fact - I've no doubt others share the sentiment but don't admit to it.
A refreshingly honest anti-democrat still has no respect for the views of the people.
Well by definition, no, but not respecting the views of the people is the common implication of a lot of partisan political rhetoric, so seeing it admitted makes for a change.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Yes, this kind of fatalism from any leader just inspires contempt. We've moved from being led by people who wanted to shape the world, to people who wanted to manage the world, to people who just want a ring-side side to watch the world go by.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
We are getting Brexit because a lot of voters are, quite rightly, very pissed off and see no prospect of change as things stand. If you feel you have nothing to lose, why not vote Leave? Racists and xenophobes do back Brexit, but they are massively outnumbered by ordinary people who see and feel no benefits from our EU membership. I strongly disagree; I think they're wrong; but I don't blame them for feeling the way they do. Life's pretty crap for a lot of people in the UK.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
I'm an internationalist and think you're completely wrong Alastair. I'm voting Leave partly in order to propel us to an ever greater part on the world stage not as a part of an undemocratic elitist regional club.
The EU had a role to play in the 1970's. It's long gone.
I'm 100% with Antifrank as was and identify with all those values, fortunately his fears are not going to happen.
Yes, it's all over bar the shouting. Britain's membership of the EU is over. It'll be interesting to see how Boris's deal with the EU goes down in a year or so's time - not very well is my guess.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
I've been banging on for as long as I've been on pb about the need to build houses.
We have three dimensions and don't use the third much. It is about time we started.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We have three dimensions and don't use the third much. It is about time we started.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
Its quite a contrast between Tyson's desire to blame any football violence on English people and his support for keeping the Cologne's sex attacks covered up.
Yes, it's all over bar the shouting. Britain's membership of the EU is over. It'll be interesting to see how Boris's deal with the EU goes down in a year or so's time - not very well is my guess.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
This is only the beginning. Brexit is the beacon, for others to find the balls to smash this monster to smithereens.
It's nothing more than a conspiracy to bamboozle the peoples of Europe to sleepwalk to their doom.
Hopefully they will also smash the political parties which supported it...
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
It is strange to me that you think this way because of course many Brexiters like me think exactly the same of you Europhiles. We see you wedded to a protectionist elitist club that represents only 7% of the world's population, overwhelmingly white, certainly overwhelmingly rich, which uses its moderate amounts of power to exploit other, less fortunate parts of the world where the other 97% of the population live.
Leaving the EU to me means opening ourselves up to the rest of the world, rebalancing our trade and starting to do deals which rely upon fairness rather than raw power.
Certainly I think on Saturday you are going to see a great example of the continued tolerance and openness of our society with the Gay pride march and I can't help but notice that so much of the Europe you seem to look to as a beacon of enlightened thought and action is decades or more behind the UK in terms of their acceptance of all members of society.
Basically we want the same things in terms of human interaction. We just differ in where we believe that stimulus for that action best comes from.
John Harris @johnharris1969 4m4 minutes ago #AnywhereButWestminster #EUref film no.1 tmrw morning: has Brexit got core Lab voters in #StokeonTrent? Check out @guardianvideo, 7.30am
I suspect we on PB can guess the answer to John's question.
Stoke-on-Trent is a prime case study in how Labour has lost touch with the WWC. Stoke has one of the lowest ethnic minority populations of all cities in the UK. The Labour majorities when totalled together in the 3 Stoke seats and Newcastle-under-Lyme came to little more than 12,500. Back as recently as 1992 Labour majorities in NUL and the 3 Stoke seats came to around 45,000. I'd expect North Staffordshire to be 60:40 in the favour of leave given the demographics, maybe even more towards leave.
Yes but the Labour party gave them Tristram Hunt as a representative of the people......... Allegedly fixed up by Mandelson.
Stoke Central was already trending away from Labour before Mr Hunt arrived on the scene:
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
I've been banging on for as long as I've been on pb about the need to build houses.
We have three dimensions and don't use the third much. It is about time we started.
Because everyone wants to raise a family in a poky high-rise apartment...
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
The Sun declares for leave. As a matter of interest have the Sun ever declared for a side that hasn't then gone onto win? Might be a better barometer than the experts, pundits or the polls.
"Will the last country to leave the EU please turn out the lights"
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Off you go then. See if you prefer Viktor Orban's Hungary, where you contentedly have your second home, you pompous twit.
I'm not leaving. Time, however, to think about how I can help change the country for the better. The world isn't going to get less complicated, less mobile or less interconnected, whatever the little Englanders think.
Something the little Europeans seem to be unable to grasp.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
Jeez there's some bitter bile frothing to the top tonight.
Find a bit of graciousness in yourselves remainers. Ever thought you might have this wrong?
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
I've been banging on for as long as I've been on pb about the need to build houses.
We have three dimensions and don't use the third much. It is about time we started.
Because everyone wants to raise a family in a poky high-rise apartment...
Tough diddums to what they want, we need a lot more building, people object to building on anything green, it needs to go somewhere else then.
Yes, it's all over bar the shouting. Britain's membership of the EU is over. It'll be interesting to see how Boris's deal with the EU goes down in a year or so's time - not very well is my guess.
The great Boris betrayal: the EU still making British law, no big fall in immigration, no rise in wages, no increases in spending on public services, no end to the housing crisis. He lied and lied again to get the PM's job, even though he knew it would make Britain poorer.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
If Britain votes Leave next week, the following day there would be much ringing of bells among pb's Greek chorus of Leavers. As and when the wheels fell off, however, there would be a shuffling away and many, probably including some of the most ardent Leavers at present, would claim that this was not what they voted for.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
It is strange to me that you think this way because of course many Brexiters like me think exactly the same of you Europhiles. We see you wedded to a protectionist elitist club that represents only 7% of the world's population, overwhelmingly white, certainly overwhelmingly rich, which uses its moderate amounts of power to exploit other, less fortunate parts of the world where the other 97% of the population live.
Leaving the EU to me means opening ourselves up to the rest of the world, rebalancing our trade and starting to do deals which rely upon fairness rather than raw power.
Certainly I think on Saturday you are going to see a great example of the continued tolerance and openness of our society with the Gay pride march and I can't help but notice that so much of the Europe you seem to look to as a beacon of enlightened thought and action is decades or more behind the UK in terms of their acceptance of all members of society.
Basically we want the same things in terms of human interaction. We just differ in where we believe that stimulus for that action best comes from.
Great post. I wish I was as articulate as you. I am very liberal and super proud of how tolerant and mature our democracy is. And I'm for Brexit.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Sorry Mr Meeks but your remarks are insulting to leavers like me. I'm no little Englander thank you, I've travelled widely around the world and am proud to regard myself as an Internationalist and very pro-European. I want a Europe that is open to the world, not one hiding behind the common EU external tariff, not engaging with the wider world. Whether you like it or not, the long term cycles are definitive that Asia will rise to become the dominant economic power by around 2030 in the world. We simply have to adjust to that new reality, and if for one moment I felt that the leave campaign represented isolation and introversion then I'd be a very reluctant remainer. I want to freely trade with everyone, freely be able to attract the best talent irrespective of gender, race, creed, colour etc whilst controlling our own destiny.
The probability of any favourable deal with Asia, particularly China, is small.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
REMAIN don't have an answer because they don't see it is as a problem.
They see it as a good thing.
Unlimited immigration is a way of creating a lower paid and more servile working class.
Of transferring economic and political power up even more to the 1%.
Yes, it's all over bar the shouting. Britain's membership of the EU is over. It'll be interesting to see how Boris's deal with the EU goes down in a year or so's time - not very well is my guess.
Obviously I hope you are right (about the Leave win) but when it comes to votes I am the eternal pessimist.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
There are over 10m unemployed or economically inactive.
There are several million part time workers on tax credits.
There will be others in part time work who are not on tax credits.
Intriguingly, Ireland is seeing negligible population growth but economic growth of 4.9%.
you want to join the euro??????
I'd quite like people to stop talking bollocks about needing immigration like we have presently and pretending that everyone is working at full capacity.
Our population is growing at 200k a year through natural difference between births and deaths anyway.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
It is strange to me that you think this way because of course many Brexiters like me think exactly the same of you Europhiles. We see you wedded to a protectionist elitist club that represents only 7% of the world's population, overwhelmingly white, certainly overwhelmingly rich, which uses its moderate amounts of power to exploit other, less fortunate parts of the world where the other 97% of the population live.
Leaving the EU to me means opening ourselves up to the rest of the world, rebalancing our trade and starting to do deals which rely upon fairness rather than raw power.
Certainly I think on Saturday you are going to see a great example of the continued tolerance and openness of our society with the Gay pride march and I can't help but notice that so much of the Europe you seem to look to as a beacon of enlightened thought and action is decades or more behind the UK in terms of their acceptance of all members of society.
Basically we want the same things in terms of human interaction. We just differ in where we believe that stimulus for that action best comes from.
Great post. I wish I was as articulate as you. I am very liberal and super proud of how tolerant and mature our democracy is. And I'm for Brexit.
I did however notice that in my haste to write it I made the world population 104%. :-(
Remain were hoping for their numbers to be far higher in Scotland and London.
Turns out that in percentage terms they won't do as well as hoped, but also worth remembering that in terms of electors neither Scotland (population of a large English county) or London (many foreigners who cannot vote) are that important when up against the main body of England (the Midlands and the cities of the North).
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Yes, it's all over bar the shouting. Britain's membership of the EU is over. It'll be interesting to see how Boris's deal with the EU goes down in a year or so's time - not very well is my guess.
Obviously I hope you are right (about the Leave win) but when it comes to votes I am the eternal pessimist.
I actually think the gap may go wider. I'm marking my cross with a force that might snap the pencil.
The contempt from REMAINERS, on here, for the political will of the British people is just breath-taking.
When their values are properly but democratically stymied, they either want to emigrate to Hungary, or take away the vote.
Wasn't it the Hungarian PM who joked with his fellow EU leaders that he had told a pack of lies to get elected and would instead do what the EU elites wanted ?
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Not sure Tory Leavers will do much about solving our housing crisis. High house prices are very important to the Tory base.
If we brexit will it be Blair's final legacy? I think yes since he was so keen to get the former soviet states into the E.U.
I seem to remember that it was Thatcher who was very keen on the eastward expansion of the EU, primarily for the reason you state. I think she also hoped it would dilute the power of a reunified Germany as well as putting a brake on the rate of ever closer union.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
If we brexit will it be Blair's final legacy? I think yes since he was so keen to get the former soviet states into the E.U.
It's part of the natural cycle. 1999 and the launch of the Euro was the high water mark of the EU. They ignored the lessons of history and didn't consolidate the member debts in the eurozone which the had to do to make it viable long term. Since then its been one long agonising decline - the anti-democratic nature of the Lisbon treaty, ignoring the convergence criteria for countries like Greece, tearing up the no bail out clause in the Euro, and not having a clue what to do about the migration patterns across the EU thanks to the failure of the Euro.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
On second thoughts maybe don't get campaigning!!
lol.
Meeks epitomises everything wrong with REMAIN. A kind of intellectual toddler, who will fling his poo at all the stupid people if he doesn't get special nursery rhymes.
Yes I am beginning to be of the view that Leave deserve to win regardless of the result, they are clearly putting in the effort and working hard to win, Remain are already beginning to sneer at the plebs rather than actually bother to try and convince them (apart from TSE of course). That said, I still think Remain will scrape home, by which I really do mean scrape home by barely 1%, when the undecideds enter the privacy of the polling booth and are not ready to take the risk of voting Leave
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
"Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave."
Not a surprise. Hard to find anyone over 60 who isn't Leave frankly. Although my Dad has surprised me.
The contempt from REMAINERS, on here, for the political will of the British people is just breath-taking.
When their values are properly but democratically stymied, they either want to emigrate to Hungary, or take away the vote.
Wasn't it the Hungarian PM who joked with his fellow EU leaders that he had told a pack of lies to get elected and would instead do what the EU elites wanted ?
I thought it was the former Czech PM?
Edit, Nope, you were right.
PM Ferenc Gyurcsany: "There is not much choice. There is not, because we screwed up. Not a little, a lot. No European country has done something as boneheaded as we have.
"Evidently, we lied throughout the last year-and-a-half, two years... You cannot quote any significant government measure we can be proud of, other than at the end we managed to bring the government back from the brink. Nothing."
In a speech sprinkled with obscenities, Mr Gyurcsany says: "We lied in the morning, we lied in the evening
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain) or even simply throwing it in the bin and facing the consequences. It would be up to the British people in general elections.
Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
The contempt from REMAINERS, on here, for the political will of the British people is just breath-taking.
When their values are properly but democratically stymied, they either want to emigrate to Hungary, or take away the vote.
Evidence for above or just another Sean "broad-brush"?
Well Tyson to start with, with his ongoing claims that democracy is broken because it won't vote the way he wants it to. The low point was his claim that almost half of the population should be disenfranchised.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
REMAIN don't have an answer because they don't see it is as a problem.
They see it as a good thing.
Unlimited immigration is a way of creating a lower paid and more servile working class.
Of transferring economic and political power up even more to the 1%.
Of waging class warfare from the top downwards.
I'm Remain and I don't see immigration as a way of creating lower paid and servile working class.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
Its quite a contrast between Tyson's desire to blame any football violence on English people and his support for keeping the Cologne's sex attacks covered up.
I apologised to tyson a few weeks ago for my being a bit of a berk.
I'd like to unreservedly non-apologise and de-apologise to tyson, as of now. He is a morally unflushable human turd, floating in the lavatory pan of his moral self regard.
To be fair, from what I read he was talking about the campaign rather than the voters. All I would say is I hope fellow remainers actually talk to leavers rather than just make assumptions about them.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
On second thoughts maybe don't get campaigning!!
lol.
Meeks epitomises everything wrong with REMAIN. A kind of intellectual toddler, who will fling his poo at all the stupid people if he doesn't get special nursery rhymes.
Yes I am beginning to be of the view that Leave deserve to win regardless of the result, they are clearly putting in the effort and working hard to win, Remain are already beginning to sneer at the plebs rather than actually bother to try and convince them (apart from TSE of course). That said, I still think Remain will scrape home, by which I really do mean scrape home by barely 1%, when the undecideds enter the privacy of the polling booth and are not ready to take the risk of voting Leave
I've actually heard a lot of people saying they will vote Leave because of the contempt with which Cameron has treated them.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement but at least that deal is not set in stone. With EU membership there is no end to that "deal". With a bilateral treaty there is the prospect of re-negotiation (albeit perhaps for a less good trade bargain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Any deal we sign will be as binding as the current one.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
On second thoughts maybe don't get campaigning!!
lol.
Meeks epitomises everything wrong with REMAIN. A kind of intellectual toddler, who will fling his poo at all the stupid people if he doesn't get special nursery rhymes.
Yes I am beginning to be of the view that Leave deserve to win regardless of the result, they are clearly putting in the effort and working hard to win, Remain are already beginning to sneer at the plebs rather than actually bother to try and convince them (apart from TSE of course). That said, I still think Remain will scrape home, by which I really do mean scrape home by barely 1%, when the undecideds enter the privacy of the polling booth and are not ready to take the risk of voting Leave
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
"Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave."
Not a surprise. Hard to find anyone over 60 who isn't Leave frankly. Although my Dad has surprised me.
My 70 something Tory voting father in law in the Cotswolds voted remain. I was stunned at this. I called him a Quisling.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
A Europe of trading nation states was tried before and led to the most suicidal war Europe has seen in its history.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
Why will stopping most of the circa 80%+ of the EU migration which are unskilled jobs, cause economic damage, since these jobs can be done by British people that are not in work?
Employment rates are at all time highs. Vacancy rates are touching all time highs. Unemployment is at ten year lows. Most of the rest not in work are mothers, students, retired or long-term sick. Where is this vast cohort of British workers being cheated out of a job?
It's not employment, so much. It's cultural and social. And it's HOUSING.
We're falling into a managerialist trap. Employment record high! Woo! Unemployment low! Woo! That's 1.6 million people out of work. 630,000 young people without a job. But fuck 'em, the headline statistics look great. Woo!
The big problem that Remainers have is that the EU actually means we can ignore our problems and leave people behind. We can forget them, and get Bogdan to make the coffee etc for minimum wage.
If Bogdan is on minimum wage making coffee, why did he get the job over John or Janet?
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
If things go poorly, I've no doubt that will be right.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I genuinely suggest that in the medium-long term this country, outside of the EU, will be a great independent trading power once more, something like a big version of Singapore or Switzerland (but maritime). And our entrepreneurs will flourish.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
That may be so, but other people cannot get their heads around that even people who don't care about immigration can want to Leave. I dare say not a majority of Leavers, but enough such that it is incorrect to think it is the only factor of importance.
Equally it's possible for people who do care about immigration to be for Remain.
Quite so. Well said.
If we BREXIT we need to remember we are all Brits. And we will be fine, if we hang together rather than hang apart. We've come through far worse.
I have no intention of hanging together with those who have taken the country on a course without any planning or coherent idea of what they want against my judgement. Why should I?
Does that mean you will ask which way people voted before you will talk to them or do business with them?
If Britain votes Leave next week, the following day there would be much ringing of bells among pb's Greek chorus of Leavers. As and when the wheels fell off, however, there would be a shuffling away and many, probably including some of the most ardent Leavers at present, would claim that this was not what they voted for.
Tough.
1. You haven't answered my question.
2. Inevitably no one will get what they voted for precisely because that isn't the way any vote works.
I went to my local to watch Italy vs Belgium tonight. Its was full of young, vibrant, Italians. I was overcome by a hint of sadness that come the end of June we will be shutting our doors to these people coming to the UK. It'll be just an easy for them to sort out a visa for the US or Canada, or Australia to go to an English speaking country. Or they can go to Germany without any hassle.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
The tawdry, racist leave campaign is obviously winning. Written straight from the Goebbels play book. Tried, tested, proven and utterly nihilistic.
BTW- the leave campaign is 100% racist. It hints at a bright white future, whilst most people drawn to it are too ignorant or ill informed to get their racist heads around the fact that EU has nothing to do with non white immigration to the UK. I'd laugh, if it wasn't so horrible.
People just cannot get their hands around that leaving the EU will leave the UK poorer and less equipped to deal with non white immigration.
BTW- Sadiq Khan today has shown that he has more leadership in tip of of his finger tip than the loathsome, narcissist Boris.
Seems to be the night for throwing unfounded and ill informed accusations around.
I do like changes in the narrative like today - it shows people in a clearer light.
I never thought anything else, or posted anything else that the leave campaign is racist and built on ignorance. You are sided my friend with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, Galloway, revolutionary marxists, Farage, and opportunistic narcissists like Boris and Gove. Enjoy your bedfellows.
And quite possibly the majority of the British public.
Not a fan of democracy?
You can look to the Germany of the 30's to realise that democracy didn't quite achieve the best outcomes. Or maybe you can join yourself to other Brexiters, like our very own Rod who are holocaust deniers.
Brexit is nihilistic, horrible, nasty, populist, regressive, reactionary politics. But it is built on a winning formula as we have seen in Putin's Russia, Serbian nationalism, and Nazism, and many others of its ilk.
Brexit is unleashing a beast into England and Europe.
What a load of absolute a-historical, undemocratic guff.
Its quite a contrast between Tyson's desire to blame any football violence on English people and his support for keeping the Cologne's sex attacks covered up.
I apologised to tyson a few weeks ago for my being a bit of a berk.
I'd like to unreservedly non-apologise and de-apologise to tyson, as of now. He is a morally unflushable human turd, floating in the lavatory pan of his moral self regard.
To be fair, from what I read he was talking about the campaign rather than the voters. All I would say is I hope fellow remainers actually talk to leavers rather than just make assumptions about them.
It's in line with modern trends though isn't it? From 'Never kissed a Tory' t-shirts, to no-platforming to safe spaces, there's a chunk of the populace that wants to exist in a bubble of moral purity, talking only to like minds.
This is why I've been so repelled by the Remain campaign. They've majored on personalities - essentially saying "You don't want to be like Farage, do you, you racist moron?". Well of course I don't, but that's a non sequitur. It's truly playground politics. It's clearly not working at the moment, perhaps they'll have the humility to have a rethink.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
"Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave."
Not a surprise. Hard to find anyone over 60 who isn't Leave frankly. Although my Dad has surprised me.
My 70 something Tory voting father in law in the Cotswolds voted remain. I was stunned at this. I called him a Quisling.
I hope you were joking. I hope Leave UK is not a place in which over 40% of the adult population is seen as traitorous.
In the event of a Leave victory I'm not emigrating either.
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
I can't understand why Remain can't understand that the biggest issue for over a decade now has been our inability/unwillingness, as a nation, to properly plan to house our own people.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
"Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave."
Not a surprise. Hard to find anyone over 60 who isn't Leave frankly. Although my Dad has surprised me.
Mr. Borough, few people seem to want to ask why the over 60s are so keen to vote leave. Well, maybe I can give a hint. Every one of my pensioner friends is far more worried about the future of their children and their grandchildren than they are about themselves.
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the world in favour of isolation and introversion. Given the nature of the Leave campaign, the things I most value about this country - tolerance and acceptance of others, openness, being outward-looking - would have been rejected. It's sad that it is even plausible.
For those like me that believe in such things, we would need to rethink our identity and our aims. The referendum result must be respected whichever way it goes but a Leave victory obtained in such a way would change my relationship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which case he'll run up against the City and business, both of which will be looking for something as close to EEA/EFTA as possible; and he'll risk doing significant long-term damage to the economy.
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
REMAIN don't have an answer because they don't see it is as a problem.
They see it as a good thing.
Unlimited immigration is a way of creating a lower paid and more servile working class.
Of transferring economic and political power up even more to the 1%.
Of waging class warfare from the top downwards.
I'm Remain and I don't see immigration as a way of creating lower paid and servile working class.
Are you in the 1% ?
One of Remain's problem is that they've not given a positive view about the EU.
Instead we had Stuart Rose equating the EU with lower pay for workers and assuming everyone thought that was a good thing.
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
They can take a ready-made PR playbook to deal with all of that from the Kremlin.
"Europe wants to punish us because we believe in national sovereignty and won't bow and scrape to them." "We are a great country. They don't treat us with the respect we deserve." "We'll hurt them economically as much as they hurt us."
It now seems distinctly possible that next week the nation is going to turn its back on playing a major and constructive part in the ship with my country and my countrymen.
Blinking heck man.... that's a touch bombastic.
It's not as if the EU isn't going to implode anyway under the weight of its own debt.
We'll still be driving Audis and drinking French wine next month. We'll just not have any more laws imposed on us from unelected Eurocrats.
PS - I still think Remain will pinch it. But it is enjoyable in the meantime.
My guess is that we'll still be getting plenty of our laws framed in Brussels post-Brexit. This will be part of the big betrayal, as will no major reduction in immigration.
I'm more confident than that. I wouldn't trust Boris as far as I could throw him, but I would trust Gove.
I don't think Gove will take any shit and he won't put his career before his convictions. He's the intellectual power behind the Tory campaign for Brexit and sovereignty appears to be his driving principle.
I think he'll make it clear that laws will be made in Britain and nowhere else.
In which ca
Leave means controlling immigration. The economic damage that will cause cannot now be sidestepped if Leave win. That is now Leave's raison d'être.
It means CONTROLLING immigration - which we cannot now do. This is key
Most Brits understand we need some immigration: we need talented young people, we have jobs we cannot fill. I reckon 100,000 net migrants a year would be tolerable for most people. That's still a LOT of migrants.
But right now it is running at 300,000 plus. Three to four million a decade. This is genuinely unsustainable. And REMAIN has no answer. Which is why they are losing.
Absolutely.
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
What happens if that's not the deal we end up with? We've previously discussed on here the likelihood of a final deal being based on EEA/EFTA.
We might end up with a deal that requires free movement butain). Also worth remembering that we are in a much stronger negotiating position than Switzerland or Norway, because of the much much greater size of our population and economy.
Yes. This is crucial. If you want to control immigration into the UK, then voting LEAVE is a Necessary but not Sufficient first step. There is NO WAY of controlling it within the EU, but that does not mean it will be controlled outside the EU.
However, outside the EU, you can then vote for a government which promises to control it, and that government can do so from Day 1. And then, if they win, that will happen. Immediately.
LEAVE restores democratic control, to the British people, over who comes and goes from Great Britain. For that reason alone I am LEAVE. It is fundamental.
It's like being a householder and deciding who gets to live in your house. It is the essence.
It depends on the deal we sign. It's unlikely what is signed will allow one side to unilaterally cancel it. More likely is something like the process we have now.
I actually feel a bit sorry for the Leavers. After 23 June every single bit of economic and political bad news (and I suspect they'll be plenty of it) will be blamed fully and squarely on them. 'X is a price worth paying' and 'X would have happened anyway' are about to become common refrains.I bet in a few months we'll see that strange polling phenomenon where twice as many people will claim to have voted for Remain than actually did.
If things go poorly, I've no doubt that will be right.
How can things not go poorly when half the country is trying to work out how to disengage itself from the EU rather than doing productive work? FDI won't exactly be soaring either; quite the opposite: the EU will also be busy disengaging from the UK.
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
A Europe of trading nation states was tried before and led to the most suicidal war Europe has seen in its history.
If as I assume you're referring to the pre-1914 period, one of the main contributory factors to WW1 was the lack of democracy and the stupid rivalries within the ruling royal families. And what would have happened if the Archduke Ferdinand's driver hadn't taken the wrong turn in Sarajevo? Well I still think we would have gone to war ultimately given the rivalries involved....but that's a debate for another day.
Comments
Just waiting for Remain to drift that bit more with the narrative, eg post the Sun front page being reported in the media might see a bit more tomorrow .. I'm gearing up for a big splurge to back our love of nurse!
The EU had a role to play in the 1970's. It's long gone.
Well said
I make a dick of myself every day. I'm used to it. You obviously aren't as used to it as me because you are brainy and sophisticated. But you've made a dick of yourself this past few months.
Enjoy it. Even I manage to have friends and pull women.
We have three dimensions and don't use the third much. It is about time we started.
There are several million part time workers on tax credits.
There will be others in part time work who are not on tax credits.
Intriguingly, Ireland is seeing negligible population growth but economic growth of 4.9%.
It's nothing more than a conspiracy to bamboozle the peoples of Europe to sleepwalk to their doom.
Hopefully they will also smash the political parties which supported it...
Leaving the EU to me means opening ourselves up to the rest of the world, rebalancing our trade and starting to do deals which rely upon fairness rather than raw power.
Certainly I think on Saturday you are going to see a great example of the continued tolerance and openness of our society with the Gay pride march and I can't help but notice that so much of the Europe you seem to look to as a beacon of enlightened thought and action is decades or more behind the UK in terms of their acceptance of all members of society.
Basically we want the same things in terms of human interaction. We just differ in where we believe that stimulus for that action best comes from.
It seems like plenty of these people will turn out (for the first time in years in many cases), almost uniformly for Leave.
I pick door one
The host then opens door three, and reveals Gordon Brown sporting a rictus grin
Do I switch?
Because everyone wants to raise a family in a poky high-rise apartment...
The word here is CONTROL.
Our government - the British government - elected by the British people every 5 years - would be able to set *and re-set* immigration policy for this country.
Ditto for all areas of policy.
"Will the last country to leave the EU please turn out the lights"
Find a bit of graciousness in yourselves remainers. Ever thought you might have this wrong?
Tough.
They see it as a good thing.
Unlimited immigration is a way of creating a lower paid and more servile working class.
Of transferring economic and political power up even more to the 1%.
Of waging class warfare from the top downwards.
From Prescott's disastrous Pathfinder policy of demolishing decent Victorian family homes to build poxy £150k 1 bed flats, to failure to build social housing, to BTL out of control, to propping up prices with Help to Buy.
ITS THE HOUSING MARKET, STUPID.
NuLab and the Tories have screwed lower middle/working class people over and they are very cross.
Update: My Mum has taken the temperature at the bowling club and the affluent pensioners of Lancashire are voting Leave.
Our population is growing at 200k a year through natural difference between births and deaths anyway.
I should have said the other 93% of course.
Turns out that in percentage terms they won't do as well as hoped, but also worth remembering that in terms of electors neither Scotland (population of a large English county) or London (many foreigners who cannot vote) are that important when up against the main body of England (the Midlands and the cities of the North).
Everyone who has tried to unite Europe has ultimately failed - the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler and now the EU. You'd think after at least 5 times of going round this roundabout that we'd arrive at the conclusion that a Europe of free trading nation states is the natural order of things for the best outcome in Europe......but do we ever learn from the lessons that history teaches us?
Not a surprise. Hard to find anyone over 60 who isn't Leave frankly. Although my Dad has surprised me.
Edit, Nope, you were right.
PM Ferenc Gyurcsany: "There is not much choice. There is not, because we screwed up. Not a little, a lot. No European country has done something as boneheaded as we have.
"Evidently, we lied throughout the last year-and-a-half, two years... You cannot quote any significant government measure we can be proud of, other than at the end we managed to bring the government back from the brink. Nothing."
In a speech sprinkled with obscenities, Mr Gyurcsany says: "We lied in the morning, we lied in the evening
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5358546.stm
I'm going to stay and mock the Leavers when their silly dreams turn to shite and make the UK is a success. To paraphrase Barbara Castle, If Leave wins, my country will need me to save it even more.
How's the weather looking for next week Thursday?
2. Inevitably no one will get what they voted for precisely because that isn't the way any vote works.
Well done, well done Brexit. We will become poorer and more insular in an increasingly globalised, interconnected world.
This is why I've been so repelled by the Remain campaign. They've majored on personalities - essentially saying "You don't want to be like Farage, do you, you racist moron?". Well of course I don't, but that's a non sequitur. It's truly playground politics. It's clearly not working at the moment, perhaps they'll have the humility to have a rethink.
One of Remain's problem is that they've not given a positive view about the EU.
Instead we had Stuart Rose equating the EU with lower pay for workers and assuming everyone thought that was a good thing.
"Europe wants to punish us because we believe in national sovereignty and won't bow and scrape to them."
"We are a great country. They don't treat us with the respect we deserve."
"We'll hurt them economically as much as they hurt us."