politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Turnout: the EURef big unknown
For those inside the political bubble, whether as practitioners, supporters or lobbyists on the inside, or commentators and observers watching on, it’s easy to forget how little politics matters to an enormous number of people.
Wow we got that opinion poll lead shunted off the top quickly
Re the ORB poll, it tallies with internal Downing St polling and you don't really need to be a psephologist to see that Leave have had a storming fortnight.
So I doubt it's a rogue in terms of direction.
I think you may well be right about turnout though. I'm unconvinced the rush to register will translate to the '80%' that some are predicting.
There are some really snidey social media things going around really brexit. I just got sent a Facebook that states if you have any friends thinking of voting for brexit (and I sincerely hope you don't) tell them this...followed by a list of reasons why brexit is bad.
It's the sincerely hope you don't bit...and they wonder why social media is a big echo chamber...don't agree on something, well you better not be friends with them!!!
I see football fans from across Europe are taking the chance to sample the delights of the south of France at this time of year & fully embracing the cafe culture!!!!!
There are some really snidey social media things going around really brexit. I just got sent a Facebook that states if you have any friends thinking of voting for brexit (and I sincerely hope you don't) tell them this...followed by a list of reasons why brexit is bad.
It's the sincerely hope you don't bit...and they wonder why social media is a big echo chamber...don't agree on something, well you better not be friends with them!!!
It's also very telling that this William Lacey guy who put that out, and who lives in Norway, won't permit comments in response.
Agree Mr Herdson - it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo.....if we do vote LEAVE, I suspect the pensioners who have been largely spared the pain of austerity find that changing....
I definitely think that turnout for this EU Referendum is going to be higher than originally predicted. And if the campaign has not enthused voters, it has certainly reminded many GE voters that this is an important decision for the UK's future economic prosperity and stability.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
38% of respondents who DIDN'T VOTE in GE2015 are 10/10 ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to vote in the referendum. Between 8-10 on the likely-to-vote scale, it's 51%.
That's 51% of the people who didn't show up to the polls last May are telling the pollsters they're going to vote in the referendum.
Catching up on the Farage interview. Thought he did okay, but some very probing questions from Neil.
Neil certainly put Farage into a bit of a corner on the non-EU migration. But I'm not sure that hurts leave. I can imagine people watching it thinking "yeah, that's too high as well."
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Is that expectation management Sean?
Remain seem really rattled. Amazing. Makes me believe in karma.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Is that expectation management Sean?
Remain seem really rattled. Amazing. Makes me believe in karma.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Surely that means they've been underestimating Leave's position from the beginning?
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
And still the turnout is going to be lowest amongst the youngest age group.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Surely that means they've been underestimating Leave's position from the beginning?
Pollsters, markets and bookies all. I find it extraordinary. I also suspect that we'll see a lot of headlines about the pound, gilts etc over the coming 10 days as investors wake up to what is about to happen.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
And still the turnout is going to be lowest amongst the youngest age group.
Yep - the young are their own worst enemies. There's a reason why Osborne has spent the last six years ensuring pensioners are very well looked after. Ironically, that is now about to bite him big time. The triple lock means they are shielded from any Brexit downsides.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
It's a very fair point. The same applies to a lot of unskilled working class voters who have been completely left behind and totally ignored by the party of the Leave establishment and taken for granted by Labour. I guess all I'd say is that those about to takeover the country will do all they can to ensure that the current status quo - including high house prices - remains in place. They need 37% of the vote to do so.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Morning. That's a very good article, talking about the huge disconnect between Labour voters and the labour leadership (think Lady Nugee and her disgust at white van man).
If these DE groups turn out for Leave it could be key to the referendum result.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Surely that means they've been underestimating Leave's position from the beginning?
In terms of over-sampling graduates, yes.
It's perfectly reasonable to wait for the deadline for registration before filtering out the unregistered, and to weight by turnout only in the last few days of the campaign.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
It's a very fair point. The same applies to a lot of unskilled working class voters who have been completely left behind and totally ignored by the party of the Leave establishment and taken for granted by Labour. I guess all I'd say is that those about to takeover the country will do all they can to ensure that the current status quo - including high house prices - remains in place. They need 37% of the vote to do so.
I think you could have written that article that Plato linked to.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
It's a very fair point. The same applies to a lot of unskilled working class voters who have been completely left behind and totally ignored by the party of the Leave establishment and taken for granted by Labour. I guess all I'd say is that those about to takeover the country will do all they can to ensure that the current status quo - including high house prices - remains in place. They need 37% of the vote to do so.
I suspect your right. There is an argument that the problems have been self inflicted. Labour put no controls on a the accession countries, though that may have only delayed the migration. But more importantly our system is not contributory. Furthermore, our politicians have gladly turned a blind eye to foreign ownership of property. The problem is that fixing this will be very painful for anyone who has got a mortgage in the last couple of years.
Of course, this is mostly confined to London and the Southeast.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
It's a very fair point. The same applies to a lot of unskilled working class voters who have been completely left behind and totally ignored by the party of the Leave establishment and taken for granted by Labour. I guess all I'd say is that those about to takeover the country will do all they can to ensure that the current status quo - including high house prices - remains in place. They need 37% of the vote to do so.
I think you could have written that article that Plato linked to.
Morning. That's a very good article, talking about the huge disconnect between Labour voters and the labour leadership (think Lady Nugee and her disgust at white van man).
If these DE groups turn out for Leave it could be key to the referendum result.
Agree Sandpit and Plato. Ian Warren wrote: "During the EU referendum the Remain campaign has made a huge blunder in emphasising the risk to the economy for these voters. That’s because, for them, the economy is already not working. How can it get any WORSE? Quite the contrary. A vote to Leave the EU, from their perspective, is a vote for change, to shake up the status quo. A vital desperate grasp at the shortest of straws. Repeatedly ramming the threat to the economy down their throats will likely provoke withering contempt, particularly if it’s delivered by a hate figure like David Cameron."
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
Massive difference between Trump and voting Leave. But yes there will be a lot of overlap.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I'd like to think so, but it'll be Boris and Gove negotiating with the member states. They are right wing Tories.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
And still the turnout is going to be lowest amongst the youngest age group.
Yep - the young are their own worst enemies. There's a reason why Osborne has spent the last six years ensuring pensioners are very well looked after. Ironically, that is now about to bite him big time. The triple lock means they are shielded from any Brexit downsides.
Andrew Neil picked apart Osborne's nonsense on pensioners.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
A note from Anthony Wells. The next Ipsos MORI poll will very likely show a big swing to Leave, as the company will now filter out people who aren't registered to vote, will weight by educational attainment (to avoid over-sampling graduates) and likely weight by turnout.
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Surely that means they've been underestimating Leave's position from the beginning?
Yes. Ipsos polls were amongst the most ludicrous. One had a 20% REMAIN lead.... AFAIK.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
Massive difference between Trump and voting Leave. But yes there will be a lot of overlap.
Not really when you read some of the rants suggesting that voting to leave the EU is being driven by a protest vote against the Establishment. One hell of a risky protest vote.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
Massive difference between Trump and voting Leave. But yes there will be a lot of overlap.
Not really when you read some of the rants suggesting that voting to leave the EU is being driven by a protest vote against the Establishment. One hell of a risky protest vote.
Via Twitter and couldn't find much on it, but Lord Lisvane (formerly the Comons clerk) has apparently said if it's a narrow Leave there'll have to be a second vote.
Morning. That's a very good article, talking about the huge disconnect between Labour voters and the labour leadership (think Lady Nugee and her disgust at white van man).
If these DE groups turn out for Leave it could be key to the referendum result.
They will vote leave in their droves. I believe Labour's panic of the last few days is as they look at the voter ID data gathered these last few weeks and realise a significant section of our support is voting to leave. As the article says - and I've argued the same point internally vs the "happy clappy" EU is wonderful faction - the referendum is a vote on the status quo. And so many people in Labour heartlands feel left behind, there is no risk in a leave vote when remain means more of the same and the same for them is failure.
The article doesn't provide anew answer though. We are an internationalist party and many many members see that as supporting migration. It's unsustainable - you have have cross border solidarity and standards and rights without removing the border. And our economy would benefit from the same patriotic protectionism the French and Germans exercise - buy British eat British. Reinvigorating the UK supply chain whether it be food or cars or clothes - a patriotic appeal to create jobs here by not going for the cheapest option. It's not cheap in the long term if the pennies you save on imported veg means no jobs.
"The latest edition of a German magazine will implore Britain “please don’t go” in a special European Union referendum edition, which will hit newsstands tomorrow morning.
Der Spiegel’s June 11, 2016 issue will explain “why Germany needs the British” in an edition that has been hailed as “generous” and “touching”.
Der Spiegel is one of Europe’s largest publications, with a weekly circulation of about 800,000."
For a little perspective, will anyone really be talking about politics today?
We have the Queen's Birthday, Birthday Honours, riots in Marseille and the small matter of England playing in rugby, cricket and football.
With 3 home countries and Eire to watch and the speculation, getting airtime for the referendum will now prove challenging. Why did Cameron pick this timetable? Perhaps he expected to have built a massive lead before purdah time, so that LEAVE had been shut out of the media.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
What you want is self-contradictory. You want to be on a housing "ladder". But the point about the "ladder" is that you keep going up it. You don't want to be on the housing snake. However, since people have been relentlessly climbing this ladder for several decades in the expectation of unearned wealth, housing is now very expensive, so you can't afford it.
The pyramid scheme that is Britain's housing system is entirely self-inflicted. Britain has plenty of space to build homes, and plenty of scope to build up and down on land that already has buildings on it, but once voters are on the ladder don't want their asset depreciating, so they vote for the continuation of Britain's astonishingly restrictive Stalin-meets-Mary-Whitehouse planning system.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I'd like to think so, but it'll be Boris and Gove negotiating with the member states. They are right wing Tories.
Via Twitter and couldn't find much on it, but Lord Lisvane (formerly the Comons clerk) has apparently said if it's a narrow Leave there'll have to be a second vote.
I saw that too. I'll be making a placard if they try that on.
Should LEAVE prevail on 23 June, it will be Labour voters wot won it for them. Reflecting Corbyn's decidedly lacklustre level of support for the party's official line as being for REMAIN, the rank and file of their supporters are so far clearly not convinced.
The LEAVE Tories, together with UKIP supporters are nowhere near enough to win it for LEAVE on their own, they need a mighty wodge of Labour voting LEAVERS to push them over the line.
The way the numbers work out could eventually prove to look something like this:
Conservative Leavers ..... 60% x 35% = 21.0% UKIP Leavers .................. 90% x 15% = 13.5% Labour Leavers ............... 45% x 30% = 13.5% Other Parties' Leavers ..... 15% x 20% = 3.0%
Total LEAVERS .................................... 51.0%
38% of respondents who DIDN'T VOTE in GE2015 are 10/10 ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to vote in the referendum. Between 8-10 on the likely-to-vote scale, it's 51%.
That's 51% of the people who didn't show up to the polls last May are telling the pollsters they're going to vote in the referendum.
An interesting interview in the Times with young foreign designers who find the idea of a Leave vote incomprehensible. For them, a world without Borders is ideal. But, I think most Westerners want a world with borders.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I'd like to think so, but it'll be Boris and Gove negotiating with the member states. They are right wing Tories.
What complete tosh. They're not ring wing at all.
I imagine our definitions of right wing are very different. They believe in reducing the taxes of the best off, cutting public services, restricting trade union rights and shrinking the size of the state. That's right wing in my book.
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
Massive difference between Trump and voting Leave. But yes there will be a lot of overlap.
Not really when you read some of the rants suggesting that voting to leave the EU is being driven by a protest vote against the Establishment. One hell of a risky protest vote.
Not for the Establishment!
That comment about sums up the incredible mess the Labour party have managed to get itself into when it comes to failing to focus on the issues that matter, or any coherent message during this EU Referendum campaign! For all the Labour party's talk of Blue on Blue attacks, it is now longer able to hide its own incredible confused EU omnishambles.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
What you want is self-contradictory. You want to be on a housing "ladder". But the point about the "ladder" is that you keep going up it. You don't want to be on the housing snake. However, since people have been relentlessly climbing this ladder for several decades in the expectation of unearned wealth, housing is now very expensive, so you can't afford it.
The pyramid scheme that is Britain's housing system is entirely self-inflicted. Britain has plenty of space to build homes, and plenty of scope to build up and down on land that already has buildings on it, but once voters are on the ladder don't want their asset depreciating, so they vote for the continuation of Britain's astonishingly restrictive Stalin-meets-Mary-Whitehouse planning system.
Yep, and the (even more) right wing Tories about to takeover know that maintaining house prices are a key issue for their demographic.
Via Twitter and couldn't find much on it, but Lord Lisvane (formerly the Comons clerk) has apparently said if it's a narrow Leave there'll have to be a second vote.
LOL, I was expecting that reply! I think most will be watching the almost concurrent football match though, I'll be watching two screens at the same time
It's leave's vote to lose now. All the momentum is with them because (sadly but unsurprisingly) the single issue of the campaign is migration and remain have no answer. So far the campaign has traded increasingly ludicrous claim and counter claim with "facts" that patently aren't.
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
I think that across the Western world, there are a lot of people (from all social groups, but especially White, working class or lower middle class, men) who feel their numbers, status, and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge.
Will the same 'white, working class or lower middle class, men who feel their numbers, status and fortunes are on the slide, and want to kick the people in charge' that will vote Trump for President in the US?
Massive difference between Trump and voting Leave. But yes there will be a lot of overlap.
Not really when you read some of the rants suggesting that voting to leave the EU is being driven by a protest vote against the Establishment. One hell of a risky protest vote.
Not for the Establishment!
That comment about sums up the incredible mess the Labour party have managed to get itself into when it comes to failing to focus on the issues that matter, or any coherent message during this EU Referendum campaign! For all the Labour party's talk of Blue on Blue attacks, it is now longer able to hide its own incredible confused EU omnishambles.
I agree. Corbyn will own Brexit almost as much as Cameron and Osborne. But he'll be far less concerned. And the party membership will not hold it against him.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Some of the yoof vote of 1975 backed Remain, and are now repenting by voting Out. The vision of being part of a common market morphed into something with a single currency, a supine parliament, and rule by technocrats.
It is hard to call. I keep wondering what level of postal votes have already been returned?
Via Twitter and couldn't find much on it, but Lord Lisvane (formerly the Commons clerk) has apparently said if it's a narrow Leave there'll have to be a second vote.
Rather like the Irish he must mean that we keep voting on referenda until the people produce the right answer. Just how incredibly out of touch are people like Lord Lisvane (formerly Robert Rogers) - doesn't he realise how ridiculously stupid this makes him look?
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
I'm 29 and live my parents. The prospects of getting on the housing ladder are not good and it's the same for a lot of my friends. Quite frankly, what do we have to lose by voting to leave? It probably won't make much difference, but maybe it's time to kick the hornets nest.
What you want is self-contradictory. You want to be on a housing "ladder". But the point about the "ladder" is that you keep going up it. You don't want to be on the housing snake. However, since people have been relentlessly climbing this ladder for several decades in the expectation of unearned wealth, housing is now very expensive, so you can't afford it.
The pyramid scheme that is Britain's housing system is entirely self-inflicted. Britain has plenty of space to build homes, and plenty of scope to build up and down on land that already has buildings on it, but once voters are on the ladder don't want their asset depreciating, so they vote for the continuation of Britain's astonishingly restrictive Stalin-meets-Mary-Whitehouse planning system.
Yep, and the (even more) right wing Tories about to takeover know that maintaining house prices are a key issue for their demographic.
Right, Britain's housing system is a cross-party conspiracy by voting demographics to enrich themselves at the expense of non-voting demographics.
it's the conundrum of this referendum- the more change averse - the elderly more in favour of change, while young embracers of the new favoring the status quo...
Or maybe the elderly leavers favour the status quo of their youth, while the young remainers are motivated by dreams of political union, a radical change, just as might be expected from their respective age groups.
Pensioners have a cost-free vote; younger people don't.
If REMAIN's "scare stories" have some truth, their time of being protected from cuts may be over.
They'll be the very last to feel the effects. It'll be the young and the working class first; then those on the cusp of the 40% tax rate.
Are you still holidaying in Spain where youth unemployment is 45%? Ask them about the EU.
They are very firmly pro-EU here. It has delivered huge advances and advantages. Far more tangible than for the UK.
Let's see how many votes the avowedly Euro-sceptic parties in Spain harvest on 26th June, shall we?
Not sure that's a good measure - well over 80% of the UK electorate voted for pro-EU parties in 2015.
The Tories posed as an avowedly Eurosceptic party last year. There are no anti-EU parties in Spain and one that is Eurosceptic. There's a reason for that.
Edit - the Falange may be anti-EU, actually. But I doubt they'll get many votes.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I think Cameron did have power and it wasn't necessary to threaten to walk out; the British public was making that threat for him so he wouldn't have had to lose personal faith with his EU colleagues: "The deal you are offering cannot be sold" should have been his line. His error was in trying to conclude everything within a year when he gave himself 30 months.
Corbyn is naturally Eurosceptic. As are a significant number of party members. As are a lot of Labour voters. The PLP insisted on a remain position and mostly in or ed by the media the party has been campaigning on the street for remain. We've done extensive door knocking. And what it's shown is that whilst remain is solid in London and some urban centres it's demolished by Leave elsewhere.
So what do you do? Party establishment says remain, party voter base says leave. As with Cameron the party position is disconnected from party supporters. So the best thing we can do in my opinion is nothing (expressed by many at our recent CLP meeting) - the more we campaign for remain the more damage we do. That continuity New Labour are already lining up to blame losing the referendum on Corbyn further demonstrates who far from their voters these MPs are.
"The latest edition of a German magazine will implore Britain “please don’t go” in a special European Union referendum edition, which will hit newsstands tomorrow morning.
Der Spiegel’s June 11, 2016 issue will explain “why Germany needs the British” in an edition that has been hailed as “generous” and “touching”.
Der Spiegel is one of Europe’s largest publications, with a weekly circulation of about 800,000."
"Generous and Touching" !!!!!! While the German leaders say if you go you'll get SFA from us!! Sweet and touching as in a Johnny Depp relationship.
Corbyn is naturally Eurosceptic. As are a significant number of party members. As are a lot of Labour voters. The PLP insisted on a remain position and mostly in or ed by the media the party has been campaigning on the street for remain. We've done extensive door knocking. And what it's shown is that whilst remain is solid in London and some urban centres it's demolished by Leave elsewhere.
So what do you do? Party establishment says remain, party voter base says leave. As with Cameron the party position is disconnected from party supporters. So the best thing we can do in my opinion is nothing (expressed by many at our recent CLP meeting) - the more we campaign for remain the more damage we do. That continuity New Labour are already lining up to blame losing the referendum on Corbyn further demonstrates who far from their voters these MPs are.
Funny isn't it? I don't think they realise how detested Tony Blair and his merry band of Metropolitans are. It's why Corbyn won but politicians are the last to get hubris.
So every time Tone shows up, Leave adds another dollop of support.
Corbyn is naturally Eurosceptic. As are a significant number of party members. As are a lot of Labour voters. The PLP insisted on a remain position and mostly in or ed by the media the party has been campaigning on the street for remain. We've done extensive door knocking. And what it's shown is that whilst remain is solid in London and some urban centres it's demolished by Leave elsewhere.
So what do you do? Party establishment says remain, party voter base says leave. As with Cameron the party position is disconnected from party supporters. So the best thing we can do in my opinion is nothing (expressed by many at our recent CLP meeting) - the more we campaign for remain the more damage we do. That continuity New Labour are already lining up to blame losing the referendum on Corbyn further demonstrates who far from their voters these MPs are.
Labour voters don't like Corbyn. Only Labour members do. On that MPs are far closer to the public than the members.
@faisalislam: 13 Nobel scientists incl Higgs/graphene discoverers say Brexit puts UK science "in jeopardy" -& Leave claims 'naive' https://t.co/0l1BQjM6nE
I think it's more about currency markets than betting markets.Economic risk of Brexit has been presented as Project Fear and "scaremongering",not as sensible warnings, but if you took no notice of flood warmings would you believe them if you saw the waves were coming over the sea-wall and your shop was flooded?.Any realistic chance of Brexit winning is going to send the pound to the floor-vulture capitalists are just waiting to pounce as they did in the Greece ref..This will be the mini-shock before the real thing,a run on the pound and suddenly scaremongering it is not-it is a warning to take note of.The threat of an unpredictable,uncertain, weakness of the pound will not then be an idle one.
For a little perspective, will anyone really be talking about politics today?
We have the Queen's Birthday, Birthday Honours, riots in Marseille and the small matter of England playing in rugby, cricket and football.
I'm trying to avoid Mohammed Ali's funeral. This is almost as bad as Michael Jackson Is Still Dead.
By the way, the James Dyson interview in the DT is brilliant. We need to find a few more people like him.
Superb isn't it? Trending no.2 on twitter (okay okay). I suspect people seeking a thoughtful well-reasoned argument to Leave will be tipped by it. For the rest of us it just adds a bigger tick, or cross, in the box.
Mind you, I would love to see how Cameron could respond to his arguments.
Corbyn is naturally Eurosceptic. As are a significant number of party members. As are a lot of Labour voters. The PLP insisted on a remain position and mostly in or ed by the media the party has been campaigning on the street for remain. We've done extensive door knocking. And what it's shown is that whilst remain is solid in London and some urban centres it's demolished by Leave elsewhere.
So what do you do? Party establishment says remain, party voter base says leave. As with Cameron the party position is disconnected from party supporters. So the best thing we can do in my opinion is nothing (expressed by many at our recent CLP meeting) - the more we campaign for remain the more damage we do. That continuity New Labour are already lining up to blame losing the referendum on Corbyn further demonstrates who far from their voters these MPs are.
Funny isn't it? I don't think they realise how detested Tony Blair and his merry band of Metropolitans are. It's why Corbyn won but politicians are the last to get hubris.
So every time Tone shows up, Leave adds another dollop of support.
Yes, whoever thought Tony Blair and John Major metaphorically holding hands as they strolled round Londonderry dominanting an entire evenings news bulleteins was a good idea for remain?
@faisalislam: 13 Nobel scientists incl Higgs/graphene discoverers say Brexit puts UK science "in jeopardy" -& Leave claims 'naive' https://t.co/0l1BQjM6nE
And how much science funding is recycled through the EU blob?
@faisalislam: 13 Nobel scientists incl Higgs/graphene discoverers say Brexit puts UK science "in jeopardy" -& Leave claims 'naive' https://t.co/0l1BQjM6nE
Scientists are great - but being an expert at graphene doesn't make you an expert in EU politics. (He should stick to making frogs float in magnets).
@faisalislam: 13 Nobel scientists incl Higgs/graphene discoverers say Brexit puts UK science "in jeopardy" -& Leave claims 'naive' https://t.co/0l1BQjM6nE
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I think Cameron did have power and it wasn't necessary to threaten to walk out; the British public was making that threat for him so he wouldn't have had to lose personal faith with his EU colleagues: "The deal you are offering cannot be sold" should have been his line. His error was in trying to conclude everything within a year when he gave himself 30 months.
Cameron pretended to be something he wasn't to Tory MPs, members and voters generally for short term political gain. He will pay for that with a shattered reputation. But he'll get over it.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I'd like to think so, but it'll be Boris and Gove negotiating with the member states. They are right wing Tories.
What complete tosh. They're not ring wing at all.
Agreed. I think Boris is left of Cameron on lots of issues and 'Red Mike' has been dropping jaws over the last 18 months.
I think it's more about currency markets than betting markets.Economic risk of Brexit has been presented as Project Fear and "scaremongering" but if you took no notice of flood warmings would you believe if the waves were coming over the sea-wall.Any realistic chance of Brexit winning is going to send the pound to the floor-vulture capitalists are just waiting to pounce as they did in the Greece ref..This will be the mini-shock before the real thing,a run on the pound and suddenly scaremongering it is not-it is a warning to take note of.
Mr. Putney, quite. Cable also ( a few weeks ago) said that we should vote again if it's a narrow Leave victory.
A narrow Remain victory, of course, does not require a second vote...
The Pope's death got the most deranged media coverage. Nine days after it happened the top BBC story was Pope Remains Dead. I could understand it getting top billing if that weren't the case.
And the establishment will be absolutely fine. The idea that the right wing Tories about to takeover will do anything to challenge the positions and wealth of those who control the country is far-fetched, to say the least.
Of course. The EU mandates privatisation and bankism. The people who want out also want privatisation and bankism just with more of the profits kept by them. A lot of people voting leave would be in for a nasty shock should we actually leave.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
I think Cameron did have power and it wasn't necessary to threaten to walk out; the British public was making that threat for him so he wouldn't have had to lose personal faith with his EU colleagues: "The deal you are offering cannot be sold" should have been his line. His error was in trying to conclude everything within a year when he gave himself 30 months.
There was no error. He was never going to get anything to speak of, for reasons people who follow European politics have been posting here ever since he announced the policy. The renegotiation was a device to get through the 2015 general election without admitting that he supported the EU. It worked, and the move will have little to no effect on the outcome of the referendum: Leave may win, but if they win then they'd also have won if Cameron hadn't pulled the renegotiation scam. (*)
(*) Except in so far as there may not have been a referendum for them to win, because he'd lost the 2015 election and the LibDems or EICPM didn't want to hold one.
Comments
Re the ORB poll, it tallies with internal Downing St polling and you don't really need to be a psephologist to see that Leave have had a storming fortnight.
So I doubt it's a rogue in terms of direction.
I think you may well be right about turnout though. I'm unconvinced the rush to register will translate to the '80%' that some are predicting.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/if-he-wants-remain-to-prevail-eddie-izzard-needs-to-stay-out-of-the-eu-referendum-debate-a7074716.html
For a small fee.
It's the sincerely hope you don't bit...and they wonder why social media is a big echo chamber...don't agree on something, well you better not be friends with them!!!
http://election-data.co.uk/answer-the-hard-questions-show-some-leadership
Was the biggest loser of Thursday Nights ITV EU Referendum Debate Boris Johnson's Leadership ambitions?
STV News Stephen Daisley - All hail Amber Rudd, the new star of the Conservative Party
STV? A Scottish subsidiary of a Scottish subsidiary of ITV, right?
38% of respondents who DIDN'T VOTE in GE2015 are 10/10 ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to vote in the referendum. Between 8-10 on the likely-to-vote scale, it's 51%.
That's 51% of the people who didn't show up to the polls last May are telling the pollsters they're going to vote in the referendum.
Page 3;
http://opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/orbindependent-friday-10th-june-final-data-tables.pdf
If all these changes had been applied to their last poll, the lead would probably have been 9-10%, rather than 18%.
Remain seem really rattled. Amazing. Makes me believe in karma.
That's the house rag of the Breqou tax avoiders, right?
But do keep talking among yourselves...
But a lot of people aren't going with their head, they are going with their gut. And that tells them they are unhappy with the status quo, aren't happy with where the country is going, and even if leaving the EU isn't a silver bullet cure all, it's a start. Or at the very least a scream of defiance against an establishment which for two long has offered (as Galloway put it) two cheeks of the same arse.
It'll be leave. It won't be close.
If these DE groups turn out for Leave it could be key to the referendum result.
It's perfectly reasonable to wait for the deadline for registration before filtering out the unregistered, and to weight by turnout only in the last few days of the campaign.
Which we won't. Because we vote to leave. The dispossessed and discontented across Europe all demand their own votes, the EU realises the status quo is untenable and a proper renegotiation happens. A revised EU with less migration and more national freedom "isn't what people rejected, we have to put this to a vote" and hey presto we stay.
But you have to negotiate change from a position of power. Cameron had no power pledging to campaign to remain to they gave nothing. Actually get up from the table and they have to actually give ground.
Of course, this is mostly confined to London and the Southeast.
"During the EU referendum the Remain campaign has made a huge blunder in emphasising the risk to the economy for these voters. That’s because, for them, the economy is already not working. How can it get any WORSE? Quite the contrary. A vote to Leave the EU, from their perspective, is a vote for change, to shake up the status quo. A vital desperate grasp at the shortest of straws. Repeatedly ramming the threat to the economy down their throats will likely provoke withering contempt, particularly if it’s delivered by a hate figure like David Cameron."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/euroscepticism-on-the-rise-across-europe-as-analysis-finds-increasing-opposition-to-the-eu-in-france-a7069766.html
I'm afraid you're deluded.
We have the Queen's Birthday, Birthday Honours, riots in Marseille and the small matter of England playing in rugby, cricket and football.
The real burning question is: Will Arya make it 'till voting day?
Mr. Sandpit, you missed off the F1 qualifying!
Via Twitter and couldn't find much on it, but Lord Lisvane (formerly the Comons clerk) has apparently said if it's a narrow Leave there'll have to be a second vote.
The article doesn't provide anew answer though. We are an internationalist party and many many members see that as supporting migration. It's unsustainable - you have have cross border solidarity and standards and rights without removing the border. And our economy would benefit from the same patriotic protectionism the French and Germans exercise - buy British eat British. Reinvigorating the UK supply chain whether it be food or cars or clothes - a patriotic appeal to create jobs here by not going for the cheapest option. It's not cheap in the long term if the pennies you save on imported veg means no jobs.
"The latest edition of a German magazine will implore Britain “please don’t go” in a special European Union referendum edition, which will hit newsstands tomorrow morning.
Der Spiegel’s June 11, 2016 issue will explain “why Germany needs the British” in an edition that has been hailed as “generous” and “touching”.
Der Spiegel is one of Europe’s largest publications, with a weekly circulation of about 800,000."
The pyramid scheme that is Britain's housing system is entirely self-inflicted. Britain has plenty of space to build homes, and plenty of scope to build up and down on land that already has buildings on it, but once voters are on the ladder don't want their asset depreciating, so they vote for the continuation of Britain's astonishingly restrictive Stalin-meets-Mary-Whitehouse planning system.
The LEAVE Tories, together with UKIP supporters are nowhere near enough to win it for LEAVE on their own, they need a mighty wodge of Labour voting LEAVERS to push them over the line.
The way the numbers work out could eventually prove to look something like this:
Conservative Leavers ..... 60% x 35% = 21.0%
UKIP Leavers .................. 90% x 15% = 13.5%
Labour Leavers ............... 45% x 30% = 13.5%
Other Parties' Leavers ..... 15% x 20% = 3.0%
Total LEAVERS .................................... 51.0%
It is hard to call. I keep wondering what level of postal votes have already been returned?
By the way, the James Dyson interview in the DT is brilliant. We need to find a few more people like him.
Edit - the Falange may be anti-EU, actually. But I doubt they'll get many votes.
So what do you do? Party establishment says remain, party voter base says leave. As with Cameron the party position is disconnected from party supporters. So the best thing we can do in my opinion is nothing (expressed by many at our recent CLP meeting) - the more we campaign for remain the more damage we do. That continuity New Labour are already lining up to blame losing the referendum on Corbyn further demonstrates who far from their voters these MPs are.
So every time Tone shows up, Leave adds another dollop of support.
@faisalislam: 13 Nobel scientists incl Higgs/graphene discoverers say Brexit puts UK science "in jeopardy" -& Leave claims 'naive' https://t.co/0l1BQjM6nE
Mind you, I would love to see how Cameron could respond to his arguments.
Much rather listen to someone who actually makes money from all his inventions.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sir-james-dyson-so-if-we-leave-the-eu-no-one-will-trade-with-us/
https://twitter.com/btabrum/status/741152505560731649
Mr. Putney, quite. Cable also ( a few weeks ago) said that we should vote again if it's a narrow Leave victory.
A narrow Remain victory, of course, does not require a second vote...
The Pope's death got the most deranged media coverage. Nine days after it happened the top BBC story was Pope Remains Dead. I could understand it getting top billing if that weren't the case.
(*) Except in so far as there may not have been a referendum for them to win, because he'd lost the 2015 election and the LibDems or EICPM didn't want to hold one.