So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
If they've planned that one how many others have they planned? Just wait until their sleeper agent Farage defects to Remain.
"Vote Remain - we have more duplicitous shits than the other side"
Major was a rubbish ineffectual PM and has become both a bore and a whingeing old OAP. He has managed to upset everyone from his neighbours to Lord's.
He fumbled and stumbled his way out of the ERM which, by sheer luck, brought on this country's prosperity. (There's a lesson there re. the EU of course.)
And he managed to generate the Blairite landslide victory: a generation lost to the Conservatives as well as the single-most disastrous foreign policy in British history which has unleashed a thousand years of terrorism against the west. And you could argue that because of Major we're now lumbered with Cameron who stands for precisely nothing.
Chapeau.
I think this comment unwittingly underlines the problem the Tories have here: the major problem for Major came from his own side- the constant battle with the "Bastards". If he was ineffectual, it was because the Tories were fighting like cats in a sack, and what this referendum is showing is that the same old problem has, if anything, got worse.
Even though the tired dinosaurs such as Bill Cash or Duncan Smith, have been joined by new fogies, like Rees Mogg and Johnson, they are still playing the same game of treachery.
The Leave Merchants can not be satisfied- even if they win the referendum, many will simply carry on the fight to avoid EEA or any other compromise position. A Fanatic is one who won't change his mind and won't change the subject, and it is hard to be positive in the face of this.
So Major is giving as good as he got, and the electorate will draw their own conclusions, both in two weeks time and at the next General Election.
Major almost finished the Conservatives as a party back in the 92-97 period. Now he is back to try and finish the job. Agent Major?
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
If they've planned that one how many others have they planned? Just wait until their sleeper agent Farage defects to Remain.
Farage is so obviously a sleeper. To think you could get away with a 'Brexiter' who's got a French name and a German wife.
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
There is no shortage of people wanting to train as doctors and nurses in the UK. The problem seems to be keeping hold of them once they have qualified.
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
There can be a downside, as with pharmacists, where the UK produces enough and other EU countries over-produce. There was a strong suggestion a while ago that this was holding down salaries as large companies, such as Tesco and Boots were actively recruiting, at lower than normal salaries, in Eastern Europe. Eastern European pharmacists seem to have got wise to the situation though, and either aren’t coming or are demanding the sort of salaries the locals get, as the complaints on pharmaceutical forums seem to have almost stopped.
I lknew about this, and overall I still thought Remain was, and is, the best bet.
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago.
You don't remember very well then - the quote was 'Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick', not that it is unreasonable she do it (though some people may also think that, unfairly, since this is a UK vote and of course she can appeal to everyone) but that it will go down poorly with the targeted audience, and I remember distinctly endless comments that anything Cameron said, or indeed anything any Westminster politician said, would go down like a bucket of cold sick in Scotland. We see it to this day in fact.
So in fact exactly those objections were made to Cameron lecturing Scotland. If you want to complain about people objecting to a Scot lecturing the English vs a Englishman lecturing the Scots, that is an entirely different objection to the one you, er, objected to.
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
There is no shortage of people wanting to train as doctors and nurses in the UK. The problem seems to be keeping hold of them once they have qualified.
Is that actually the case? I thought that, certainly in the case of nurses, recruitment as a problem. The DoH’s recruitment planning is also suspect.
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
A bit puzzled that REMAIN think a person very popular with a large part of northern britons in Scotland worth 4% of all voters should be of some appeal to the other 96%. It is as if her use as a bad image at GE2015 has been completely turned on its head and Osborne (as the real decision taker at REMAIN) thinks she can appeal to the 96%.
I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
Toys - Pram
Good morning all. Not so.
Thus far, my own (in the sense that I'm a life long Tory voter) party has told me I'm xenephobic (as others have said, this is the new 'racist', with the 'phobic' added to make it doubly irrational), parochial (thanks Hague, you multi-millionaire you) and stupid. Hmm. Who shall I vote for next time?
I've said all along that remain will win. But Cameron should look up the meaning of 'Pyrrhic victory'.
LOL!
Cameron doesn't care that he's destroyed his party with all this stuff because he'll be off soon enough but it's his successor who will somehow have to pick up the pieces.
I'll not be voting Con anytime soon that is for sure.
and then when it happens you defeat it by whatever means you deem necessary and pick up the pieces afterwards...
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
Cross recognition of training and qualifications between countries is quite complicated and it would be a very substantial job to extend these to other countries in the world. There are a number of non-EU countries that have automatic recognition of medical degrees including a number in India. It is the postgraduate training that is unrecognised, with a few exceptions like Australia. These are often very different to UK needs and working practices, hence the need for extensive review of experience before approval.
This is perhaps an example of the non-tariff barriers/essential quality regulation* that the Single Market in the EU has eliminated in my sphere of work.
*the two terms are synonyms, but choose whichever suits your predjudices!
Major was a rubbish ineffectual PM and has become both a bore and a whingeing old OAP. He has managed to upset everyone from his neighbours to Lord's.
He fumbled and stumbled his way out of the ERM which, by sheer luck, brought on this country's prosperity. (There's a lesson there re. the EU of course.)
And he managed to generate the Blairite landslide victory: a generation lost to the Conservatives as well as the single-most disastrous foreign policy in British history which has unleashed a thousand years of terrorism against the west. And you could argue that because of Major we're now lumbered with Cameron who stands for precisely nothing.
Chapeau.
So Major is giving as good as he got, and the electorate will draw their own conclusions, both in two weeks time and at the next General Election.
Over the many years that I have delighted in his writings, Matthew has always struck me as anti-Eurosceptic rather than pro-EU. Now, challenged to make a factual case for staying in, he takes an unusual line. He doesn’t try to claim that the EU is a successful project: he is too honest for that. Rather, he falls back on amateur psychology. Euroscepticism is not a rational response to the failures of Brussels, he says, but a kind of displacement activity, a way of working out our complexes. Its exponents are ungentlemanly, eccentric, unimpressive. We’re closet racists, and our language is bitter and rancid.
He and I must be following different debates. Leavers put up with a great deal of name-calling, and not just from columnists. The Prime Minister has suggested that we’re indifferent to peace, sympathetic to Putin and happy to put a bomb under the economy. While a few Eurosceptics are doubtless disagreeable — it could hardly be otherwise, with around half the country on the Leave side — our general case remains cheerful and optimistic. Britain is a bustling, innovative, generous country, perfectly capable of living under its own laws while co-operating with allies on every continent, including Europe.
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
Didn't we hear on here about the Tories professional, full-time canvassing teams going round the country, especially in LibDem seats, with pictures of Nicola Sturgeon asking voters if they wanted her running things?
The 350m business is clearly a pretext not a reason, there is nothing she is "complaining" about that wasnt know a month ago, we have been arguing about the next and gross contributions for weeks, if that is what really bothered her she would have left then, she didn't, and indeed continued to campaign for leave. She's been nobbled.
Yes. She was making mutterings on this a few weeks back and now becomes the dead cat on the table for the day after Osborne's interview. Osborne delayed the announcement with a pre-written article and her diary free for interviews today. Oh look over there...
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
Sorry, I should of course have said I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago from people like you.
Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .
Well to be fair they misled us...
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.
Oh wait.
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...
And it did just that. It did exactly that.
This strand of the Leave campaign (as opposed to the not wanting Bulgarians and Romanians coming over here and giving birth to their "EU children" strand) relies on a supposition. That the EU, the ECJ, the nascent EU Army, will ignore the February deal, not enshrine it into treaty, and then impose on us euro membership and all other ills it can think of.
Do you really think that the UK would stand for such behaviour? If it were not written in to the next treaty (no idea when that is, btw), or if they gave us an ultimatum - join the euro, say, or if they required us to submit our spending plans to the EU for approval (oh wait, they did that, and we said: non), then we would just refuse and UKIP, with its 650 MPs by that time, would take us out once and for all.
Relax. We are a sovereign nation and can leave the EU any time we please.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
The BBC will fully milk this for as long as they are able.
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
If they've planned that one how many others have they planned? Just wait until their sleeper agent Farage defects to Remain.
That would be hilarious, after all the effort spent on telling us not be "Nigel Farage's Little Englanders". He defects to Remain, thereby guaranteeing a victory for Leave..
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
There is no shortage of people wanting to train as doctors and nurses in the UK. The problem seems to be keeping hold of them once they have qualified.
Is that actually the case? I thought that, certainly in the case of nurses, recruitment as a problem. The DoH’s recruitment planning is also suspect.
Nursing courses and medical degrees are heavily over-subscribed.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
Relax. We are a sovereign nation and can leave the EU any time we please.
We'll see (if it's REMAIN)
These people (the euro-elite and UK europhiles) never take no for an answer. Heseltine said only a year or so back that the UK WILL join the Euro.
By hook or by crook sooner or later the establishment will get rid of the Pound we just don't yet know how they are going to devise the crisis that lets them push their agenda...
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
Sorry, I should of course have said I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago from people like you.
Really? I don't believe I commented. My opinion was that it was up to the Scots.
I don't understand why you are so tetchy. Sturgeon doesn't appeal to most of England. Whether that's good or bad is irrelevant. She will annoy English voters. That might help Leave. It's really not difficult to understand. I'm not passing comment on her abilities either way.
My son (a local Vote Leave organiser boo but I still love him) was told by a cannot be named Tory MP that a major Labour figure was going to defect to Leave. Hasn't happened yet so I'm guessing it's all part of the stuff and nonsense of the campaign.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
Why say Pyrrhic victory for Remain, if Leave win wouldn't it be the same for them? They're mainly Tories too and haven't gone easy on the insults.
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago. Of course unlike Cameron, Sturgeon will be taking questions from the 'ordinary voter' which always helps to defuse accusations of being patronising.
Sturgeons lack of popularity in most of England is often used to partially explain the Tories majority in 2015 is it not? Tories were happyish to laud her performance last year in the pre election debates because it shafted Labour in Scotland and boosted them in England.
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
Sorry, I should of course have said I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago from people like you.
I remember your twerpish loser Salmond calling for more input from Cameron. Didn't he demand a televised debate with him ?
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .
Well to be fair they misled us...
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.
Oh wait.
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...
And it did just that. It did exactly that.
This strand of the Leave campaign (as opposed to the not wanting Bulgarians and Romanians coming over here and giving birth to their "EU children" strand) relies on a supposition. That the EU, the ECJ, the nascent EU Army, will ignore the February deal, not enshrine it into treaty, and then impose on us euro membership and all other ills it can think of.
Do you really think that the UK would stand for such behaviour? If it were not written in to the next treaty (no idea when that is, btw), or if they gave us an ultimatum - join the euro, say, or if they required us to submit our spending plans to the EU for approval (oh wait, they did that, and we said: non), then we would just refuse and UKIP, with its 650 MPs by that time, would take us out once and for all.
Relax. We are a sovereign nation and can leave the EU any time we please.
"you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
The BBC will fully milk this for as long as they are able.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
My son (a local Vote Leave organiser boo but I still love him) was told by a cannot be named Tory MP that a major Labour figure was going to defect to Leave. Hasn't happened yet so I'm guessing it's all part of the stuff and nonsense of the campaign.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
The BBC will fully milk this for as long as they are able.
Hey, it's not a conspiracy, it's NEWS.
Yes, it is. But it will be given headline billing all day by the BBC.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
If I was Boris I might have drafted one for each side for two reasons.
Firstly: Cameron may have come back with a much better renegotiation. He didn't. But mainly: It's a difficult and serious decision. Putting your thinking down in writing for both sides helps crystalise it and make you seriously think about the logic and ensure you're making the right call.
I've done that before taking major decisions in the past.
My son (a local Vote Leave organiser boo but I still love him) was told by a cannot be named Tory MP that a major Labour figure was going to defect to Leave. Hasn't happened yet so I'm guessing it's all part of the stuff and nonsense of the campaign.
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
The BBC will fully milk this for as long as they are able.
Hey, it's not a conspiracy, it's NEWS.
Yes, it is. But it will be given headline billing all day by the BBC.
Unlike every single newspaper in the country.
Says more about the papers who are overwhelmingly 'Leave'.
Anyway, I think Remainers have a point. Vote Leave have probably harvested the maximum (or near maximum) number of votes they can on open migration now.
They should spend the last two weeks painting the positive, open, optimistic picture of a global Britain, and a new golden age of friendly cooperation and colloboration in a world of self-governing liberal democracies, IMHO
Focus on the ABs.
Disagree entirely I'm afraid CR.
Remain are trying to change our strategy because they see that it is working. They wouldn't be interrupting us if it was a mistake.
All the ABs who are going to vote Leave are already persuaded. All that is needed to diffuse these false attacks from GO and DC is a few lines from BoJo along the lines of 'if it Rascist to want higher wages and better access to services, then almost everyone on the planet is'. This is not a general election where targeting will work. Building a broad coalition means we need to ensure that the working class voters who would be most helped by higher wages vote for us.
Absolutely, watching your rivals tactics is the most useful thing one can do. Sending Blair and Major to NI to put the frighteners on today is a good example.
As Casino noted - wall to wall Remain ads in the City. If Leave wasn't winning on immigration - Remain wouldn't be smearing Farage and name calling the rest of us parochial. They're scared.
You should be out on the same Sussex streets you pounded 12 months ago urging people to vote for Cameron and Osborne apologizing for misleading them .
Well to be fair they misled us...
Yeah, the rotters promised us an In/Out referendum, shameful they haven't delivered one.
Oh wait.
They also promised a renegotiation that would fundamentally change our relationship with the EU...
And it did just that. It did exactly that.
This strand of the Leave campaign (as opposed to the not wanting Bulgarians and Romanians coming over here and giving birth to their "EU children" strand) relies on a supposition. That the EU, the ECJ, the nascent EU Army, will ignore the February deal, not enshrine it into treaty, and then impose on us euro membership and all other ills it can think of.
Do you really think that the UK would stand for such behaviour? If it were not written in to the next treaty (no idea when that is, btw), or if they gave us an ultimatum - join the euro, say, or if they required us to submit our spending plans to the EU for approval (oh wait, they did that, and we said: non), then we would just refuse and UKIP, with its 650 MPs by that time, would take us out once and for all.
Relax. We are a sovereign nation and can leave the EU any time we please.
"you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"
'You can leave, but you will be treated as a deserter and face consequences'
A happy club that was truly in our interests wouldn't have to issue such menacing threats. The case would make itself and they'd be happy for new members to join, or old ones to leave.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
Putting himself in the shoes of the enemy. Basic generalship.
"If you meet a migrant in the NHS they are more likely to be treating you than ahead of you in the queue." Dr S Wollaston
And there is a good chance they are not from the EU..........
A very large number are. 10% of UK medical staff are from the EU, and I would be surprised if the percentage of nursing staff is substantially different.
The single market means automatic recognition of specialist and registerable qualifications, while non-EU applicants have to leap through multiple hoops and often take 6 months to be legally appointable, even when visas are not an issue, such as Indian Doctors coming on spouse visas.
Most medical and nursing migrants come with the intention of working for a year or two before returning home with additional funds and skills, so freedom of movement smooths things over considerably. Many choose to stay longer or even permenantly, but typically see moving as a year out.
Given the obvious need for medical professionals, would it not be feasible for the NHS to work directly with colleges in places like Mumbai or Manila, with approved qualifications and promises of UK visas for a period of time to successful graduates? Maybe a program could pay for tuition fees over say five or ten years as a training bond. Win-win?
Cross recognition of training and qualifications between countries is quite complicated and it would be a very substantial job to extend these to other countries in the world. There are a number of non-EU countries that have automatic recognition of medical degrees including a number in India. It is the postgraduate training that is unrecognised, with a few exceptions like Australia. These are often very different to UK needs and working practices, hence the need for extensive review of experience before approval.
This is perhaps an example of the non-tariff barriers/essential quality regulation* that the Single Market in the EU has eliminated in my sphere of work.
*the two terms are synonyms, but choose whichever suits your predjudices!
Thanks for that response, these things are always going to be much more complicated in the details, especially so in a critical regulated industry such as medicine.
The reason for throwing an idea like that is as an example of something outside the box, which may or may not work but if it's not tried it certainly won't. It's also an example of how, outside the EU, we could better co-operate with the rest of the English speaking world, rather than looking only inside Europe for solutions to our problems.
In a pub in London yesterday I was engaged in conversation by a young Asian lad, 20s, who enthusiastically asked me about the referendum. I said I was firmly for OUT and he was genuinely puzzled why I was voting for something that would trash the economy and lose jobs.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
The BBC will fully milk this for as long as they are able.
Hey, it's not a conspiracy, it's NEWS.
Yes, it is. But it will be given headline billing all day by the BBC.
Unlike every single newspaper in the country.
Says more about the papers who are overwhelmingly 'Leave'.
Guardian, Observer, Mirror, i, Independent (online) etc are all overwhelmingly for 'leave' are they?
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
I think he believed it when he said it, and the defeat of 2001 shattered his self-confidence.
In a pub in London yesterday I was engaged in conversation by a young Asian lad, 20s, who enthusiastically asked me about the referendum. I said I was firmly for OUT and he was genuinely puzzled why I was voting for something that would trash the economy and lose jobs.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
Hope you "educated" him on the "trash the economy" stuff?
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
I think he believed it when he said it, and the defeat of 2001 shattered his self-confidence.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
My wife and I both listened to Sarah Wollaston on both BBC and Sky this morning and she expressed in a quiet and competent manner how she has been torn by the debate and that she had been influenced by her Father, family and constituents that remain was the correct decision on economic grounds for the NHS, National security, and how she had been concerned over the debate on immigration. My wife commented that she seemed to express the views of many in this referendum, that were wrestling with their choice, and that she had made a brave decision to change her mind. It is more than possible that many voters will do the same as their pen is poised over the ballot paper. For those on here who see a conspiracy there is none - just for once an MP wrestling with her conscience and making a decision that she believes in and is comfortable with
@IsabelHardman: Most absurd accusation against Wollaston is that she's doing this for a job. Those saying that should google her name and "patronage".
Quite right Scott - if Wollaston had been cabinet material she would have been called up already. She has the freedom that comes with being an average performer.
I remain surprised that we've had little comment on the rival groundwars so far. There's an assumption that Not Being On The Telly means a supporter isn't engaging. I'd suggest the exact opposite is true most of the time.
The stats produced by academics counting up events are missing loads of them, and don't measure the quality or impact either.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
She seems quite sensible to me, so why on earth would she want the Health post?
I suspect Sturgeon's effect will mainly be to show up Corbyn to Labour supporters. She is a very effective political operator The comparisons with Corbyn who seems to be nowhere aren't flattering.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Bloody hell. Looks like I'll be hitting the streets of Leeds with not one, but two members of the Benn family next week.
Just goes to show how far you have sold out.
Yeah but if he was alive you'd be on the same side as Tony Benn.
These are strange times.
Well since I am not a Tory your point is..... pointless. I would be very pleased to be on the same side as Benn (senior) on many issues, not just the EU.
You on the other hand have sold out. Even you know it.
I'm putting the county first. Country before party.
No you really aren't. You forget we have all watched your progression into the Remain camp over the last few months and it has been very obvious that you are putting party first.
The only good thing is that the one thing you are desperate to save is going to be destroyed by the whole affair. So there is some justice in the world.
Most of us knew from Day One that TSE was always going to go for Remain.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
TBH, I find the gleeful dancing on the grave of a broken and divided Party really strange. It's a truly Pyrrhic victory for Remain. There's nothing clever in stoking the pyres with cleverdick smuggery and insults.
Actually, once having been a Tory voter, I will be glad to see the back of the Conservative Party. Hitchens is right. It stands for nothing now, just the managed decline of Britain. It lacks talent (as does the Labour Party), moral intelligence, and any kind of real grassroots support worth the name.
Its time has come and gone, and it needs a replacement that is truly economically liberal, and instinctively less authoritarian. If that were to happen, it would kill off UKIP as well, which would be a great positive.
In a pub in London yesterday I was engaged in conversation by a young Asian lad, 20s, who enthusiastically asked me about the referendum. I said I was firmly for OUT and he was genuinely puzzled why I was voting for something that would trash the economy and lose jobs.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
Hope you "educated" him on the "trash the economy" stuff?
It was interesting, he didn't agree that we bought more than we sold from the EU and that less than a handful were net contributors. He stopped short of calling me a liar but was convinced that if we Leave the Germans won't sell us cars. His response was:
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
Are you serious about the Daily Mail. It has been so Brexit for so long it has lost all balance as has all their columnists. The Mail would not want to talk about this story. However, the strange thing is that the Mail on Sunday is very much pro remain.
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
The thousand+ comments a day in the Times aren't pro-Remain. There's huge concern over immigration, culture erosion, Merkel's Migrants et al. Their articles tend to be much more keen on Remain. I still expect them to come out for Remain - as a balance for the Sun.
I suspect Sturgeon's effect will mainly be to show up Corbyn to Labour supporters. She is a very effective political operator The comparisons with Corbyn who seems to be nowhere aren't flattering.
That's because Jezza is been a "outer" for 40 years and would obviously be campaigning for OUT if he could.
Where Jezza will come into his own will be after the referendum if it's LEAVE and the PLP think they will be able to conspire with the government to thwart the will of the British people. At that point Jezza will have to tell them very clearly that the games up.
The BBC playing up Sarah Wollaston's so called desertion of Leave. Obviously a well planned trap for Leave that hasn't entirely come off. Wollaston's has no history as a euro-sceptic.
If they've planned that one how many others have they planned? Just wait until their sleeper agent Farage defects to Remain.
Farage is so obviously a sleeper. To think you could get away with a 'Brexiter' who's got a French name and a German wife.
A stupid comment! However, there are millions of French and Germans who would welcome their own exit referendums.
I struggle to see how some people are saying "she seems so genuine, i truly believe her". She could easily just abstain or have made the same decision weeks ago but she's gone very public just as Cameron needs to pull a rabbit out. The idea that she has had some eureka moment after weighing up the facts (the same facts that have been in the public sphere for weeks) is naive in my opinion.
So the Doctor Defector story is currently the lead on:
BBC News ITV News Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
So the Posh Boys have been smearing the English as "Little Englander's" and then tonight Nicola is going to go an telly to lecture and patronize the English.
Should be interesting....
I don't like the Posh Boys spiel. Its boring and ineffective but agree that Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick. Could be leaves secret weapon.
I don't remember similar objections to Cameron et al lecturing Scotland two years ago.
You don't remember very well then - the quote was 'Sturgeon lecturing England is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick', not that it is unreasonable she do it (though some people may also think that, unfairly, since this is a UK vote and of course she can appeal to everyone) but that it will go down poorly with the targeted audience, and I remember distinctly endless comments that anything Cameron said, or indeed anything any Westminster politician said, would go down like a bucket of cold sick in Scotland. We see it to this day in fact.
So in fact exactly those objections were made to Cameron lecturing Scotland. If you want to complain about people objecting to a Scot lecturing the English vs a Englishman lecturing the Scots, that is an entirely different objection to the one you, er, objected to.
I didn't make a specific objection, just highlighted a rather contradictory attitude to the two situations. Also, as you allude to somewhat tortuously, there is a difference between a politician with no vote lecturing an electorate, and one with a vote taking part in a debate about how we all should vote, particularly when the latter is willing to engage with their fellow voters.
Sturgeon's 'bucket of cold sick' quotient may be rather lower outside the PB Torysphere.
'Poll shows Sturgeon is now the most popular politician across Britain
The poll, conducted during the middle of this month, shows that across Britain Ms Sturgeon has the highest net approval rating of +33; a record for TNS. She is followed by Ukip's Nigel Farage on +12, Conservative leader David Cameron on +7, Labour leader Ed Miliband on -8 and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg on -22. Among men, she has the highest net rating of +32 and among women of +35. Similarly, she tops ratings across every different age group from +17 among 18 to 24-year-olds to +43 among over 65s. In every part of Britain,the First Minister is also top of the polling from +30 in north-east England to +38 in Wales and the West Country and +33 in Greater London.'
In a pub in London yesterday I was engaged in conversation by a young Asian lad, 20s, who enthusiastically asked me about the referendum. I said I was firmly for OUT and he was genuinely puzzled why I was voting for something that would trash the economy and lose jobs.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
Didn't see you as someone who'd visit the Admiral Duncan.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
I suspect Sturgeon's effect will mainly be to show up Corbyn to Labour supporters. She is a very effective political operator The comparisons with Corbyn who seems to be nowhere aren't flattering.
I suspect Sturgeon's effect will mainly be to show up Corbyn to Labour supporters. She is a very effective political operator The comparisons with Corbyn who seems to be nowhere aren't flattering.
You need to watch the Sky debate at 6.00pm on Monday 20th when he appears before a young audience in his one and only TV debate
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Arron Banks, the co-founder of Leave.EU, put out a statement this morning saying he was thinking of taking legal action to try to stop the government extending the deadline for voter registration. He suggested this could involve challenging the result of the referendum after 23 June.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
The problem is the average voter has no idea who Sarah Wollaston is and it won't really have an impact on too many opinions. If remain can get a household name (at least one not too disliked!) to defect it will be a different story. I think it's pretty clear she's angling for the health post if Cameron wins and Hunt goes (as expected), she's weighed up the odds but hasn't really given a reason for suddenly changing her mind that the public can buy into.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
The Times would be going against its own readers if it backed leave. So why would they do it?
Are you serious about the Daily Mail. It has been so Brexit for so long it has lost all balance as has all their columnists. The Mail would not want to talk about this story. However, the strange thing is that the Mail on Sunday is very much pro remain.
The Mail like backing a winner, they tried to dismantle UKIP last year despite the views of their readers. When they lead with Farage and the race questions after the Q&A this week people may have wondered if they were wavering, but they then switched to Cameron and his immigration failings. As you say the MOS and it's editor are very pro remain, so you can't take any newspaper for granted until the week of the vote.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
Yes they have everything they need apart from the support of the MPs, the members and the campaigners.
I got my membership renewal papers yesterday. If Remain wins, I'm leaving.
Toys - Pram
Good morning all. Not so.
Thus far, my own (in the sense that I'm a life long Tory voter) party has told me I'm xenephobic (as others have said, this is the new 'racist', with the 'phobic' added to make it doubly irrational), parochial (thanks Hague, you multi-millionaire you) and stupid. Hmm. Who shall I vote for next time?
I've said all along that remain will win. But Cameron should look up the meaning of 'Pyrrhic victory'.
LOL!
Cameron doesn't care that he's destroyed his party with all this stuff because he'll be off soon enough but it's his successor who will somehow have to pick up the pieces.
I'll not be voting Con anytime soon that is for sure.
and then when it happens you defeat it by whatever means you deem necessary and pick up the pieces afterwards...
Yeah, good luck with that!
I didn't say it would be successful! But for politicians, just like the rest of us, such things are for future them to worry about.
My wife and I both listened to Sarah Wollaston on both BBC and Sky this morning and she expressed in a quiet and competent manner how she has been torn by the debate and that she had been influenced by her Father, family and constituents that remain was the correct decision on economic grounds for the NHS, National security, and how she had been concerned over the debate on immigration. My wife commented that she seemed to express the views of many in this referendum, that were wrestling with their choice, and that she had made a brave decision to change her mind. It is more than possible that many voters will do the same as their pen is poised over the ballot paper. For those on here who see a conspiracy there is none - just for once an MP wrestling with her conscience and making a decision that she believes in and is comfortable with
Exactly right. The idea that she is some bullying europhile plant/careerist shill/Blairite spy is the stuff only of wild eurosceptic fantasy.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
I think he believed it when he said it, and the defeat of 2001 shattered his self-confidence.
Perhaps. I think I'm more cynical than you are...
No, I agree with Sean.
I think Hague is a decent and, clearly, sensitive man.
@DPJHodges: If Vote Leave want to attack Wollaston for political inconsistency, fine. But then surely they also have to attack Boris and Gove as well.
What inconsistency from Boris and Gove? They held a line based on cabinet collective responsibility until Cameron finished his "renegotiation" and then announced they'd be campaigning to leave and have been consistent ever since.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Boris has refused to deny he wrote a second column backing Remain.
If I was Boris I might have drafted one for each side for two reasons.
Firstly: Cameron may have come back with a much better renegotiation. He didn't. But mainly: It's a difficult and serious decision. Putting your thinking down in writing for both sides helps crystalise it and make you seriously think about the logic and ensure you're making the right call.
I've done that before taking major decisions in the past.
That's very good strategy for important decisions, especially so when it's either a very close call or you're 110% sure and think the other side must be mad. The process of researching and writing down the both sides will rationalise your own decision making.
The best attended debate at the uni deb soc 20 years ago was always the annual take-the-other-side debate, usually on something particularly entrenched or controversial. The Christian Union vs the Feminist Society, each arguing the other side of the abortion debate was a very memorable and thought provoking evening.
If you listen to Sarah Wollaston's speeches, there is no way you would think she was a tory. She is just another dripping wet Liberal. If she doesn't get a front bench job after this, then hopefully she will defect and take her sugar tax with her. But, then the PM, has also been converted into supporting this ridiculous tax. She has probably been promised something in this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Cameron and Ozzy have set their sights on not just victory but complete destruction of the eurosceptics and the rightwing of the party. As you say, it's going to brutal.
If that is the strategy, then that will knock the Conservatives into third place, in terms of national vote share. UKIP, plus Eurosceptic Conservatives, are 30% of the voters.
Did Mr "Parochial" Hague ever believe any of that "save the pound" and "I'll give you back your country" stuff from 97-01? Seems to me it was all an act because he'd got nothing else to say (because John Major had destroyed the Tories in 1992 when he presided over the house repossession meltdown across Middle England)
I can cope with people like Clarke and Heseltine who have never tried to hide their true beliefs. The real villains are people like Hague and Cameron who have spent decades pretending to be one thing and it turns out it was all a lie...
Quite. The language and tactics are visceral stuff - no one who was a bit half hearted would swap sides, deploy insulting language or demean fellow Party members like this.
Upthread someone mentioned that Woollaston was an Awkward Squadder - I think she's gone beyond that, she's in Team UnReliable. One can be awkward, and consistent. You can't chop and change and expect to be trusted.
Says the ex ~Blair babe soon to be ex Cameroonian
Just goes to show Ms. Plato has a good record of backing "winners" but know's when the time is right to disembark when they become "losers"...
Lol - or that she's a hypocrite.
I have had a very similar trajectory to Ms Plato.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.
Comments
And by the way there was plenty of whinging about Cameron lecturing the Scots....
#winninghere
Eastern European pharmacists seem to have got wise to the situation though, and either aren’t coming or are demanding the sort of salaries the locals get, as the complaints on pharmaceutical forums seem to have almost stopped.
I lknew about this, and overall I still thought Remain was, and is, the best bet.
So in fact exactly those objections were made to Cameron lecturing Scotland. If you want to complain about people objecting to a Scot lecturing the English vs a Englishman lecturing the Scots, that is an entirely different objection to the one you, er, objected to.
55,000 NHS staff are from EU countries.
This is perhaps an example of the non-tariff barriers/essential quality regulation* that the Single Market in the EU has eliminated in my sphere of work.
*the two terms are synonyms, but choose whichever suits your predjudices!
They seem very worked up this morning
Over the many years that I have delighted in his writings, Matthew has always struck me as anti-Eurosceptic rather than pro-EU. Now, challenged to make a factual case for staying in, he takes an unusual line. He doesn’t try to claim that the EU is a successful project: he is too honest for that. Rather, he falls back on amateur psychology. Euroscepticism is not a rational response to the failures of Brussels, he says, but a kind of displacement activity, a way of working out our complexes. Its exponents are ungentlemanly, eccentric, unimpressive. We’re closet racists, and our language is bitter and rancid.
He and I must be following different debates. Leavers put up with a great deal of name-calling, and not just from columnists. The Prime Minister has suggested that we’re indifferent to peace, sympathetic to Putin and happy to put a bomb under the economy. While a few Eurosceptics are doubtless disagreeable — it could hardly be otherwise, with around half the country on the Leave side — our general case remains cheerful and optimistic. Britain is a bustling, innovative, generous country, perfectly capable of living under its own laws while co-operating with allies on every continent, including Europe.
Is that really such a radical concept?
Look on the bright side......SINDYREF went on for years.....
This strand of the Leave campaign (as opposed to the not wanting Bulgarians and Romanians coming over here and giving birth to their "EU children" strand) relies on a supposition. That the EU, the ECJ, the nascent EU Army, will ignore the February deal, not enshrine it into treaty, and then impose on us euro membership and all other ills it can think of.
Do you really think that the UK would stand for such behaviour? If it were not written in to the next treaty (no idea when that is, btw), or if they gave us an ultimatum - join the euro, say, or if they required us to submit our spending plans to the EU for approval (oh wait, they did that, and we said: non), then we would just refuse and UKIP, with its 650 MPs by that time, would take us out once and for all.
Relax. We are a sovereign nation and can leave the EU any time we please.
And for similar reasons to Matthew Parris.
Time to buy Leave.
Lay the draw, obviously. Betfair also have SL at an astonishing 19.5 which will surely come in at some point in the next five days.
These people (the euro-elite and UK europhiles) never take no for an answer. Heseltine said only a year or so back that the UK WILL join the Euro.
By hook or by crook sooner or later the establishment will get rid of the Pound we just don't yet know how they are going to devise the crisis that lets them push their agenda...
I don't understand why you are so tetchy. Sturgeon doesn't appeal to most of England. Whether that's good or bad is irrelevant. She will annoy English voters. That might help Leave.
It's really not difficult to understand. I'm not passing comment on her abilities either way.
That's professional, not inconsistent.
Unlike every single newspaper in the country.
It's interesting the Times and Mail kept this story to a minimum and talked up John Nott more. I had considered these papers might back remain due to recent flirting but it seems likely they will go Leave which is a big boost for the out campaign.
Firstly: Cameron may have come back with a much better renegotiation. He didn't.
But mainly: It's a difficult and serious decision. Putting your thinking down in writing for both sides helps crystalise it and make you seriously think about the logic and ensure you're making the right call.
I've done that before taking major decisions in the past.
The potential for yet more referendums (new EU settlement, independence again) if we vote Leave - would that tip people to Remain?
A happy club that was truly in our interests wouldn't have to issue such menacing threats. The case would make itself and they'd be happy for new members to join, or old ones to leave.
The reason for throwing an idea like that is as an example of something outside the box, which may or may not work but if it's not tried it certainly won't. It's also an example of how, outside the EU, we could better co-operate with the rest of the English speaking world, rather than looking only inside Europe for solutions to our problems.
Project Fear has worked but will these young people vote?
And pro-immigration.
And suddenly now he is a Faragist.
That is not consistent.
It is professional, if your profession is advancing the career of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson
The stats produced by academics counting up events are missing loads of them, and don't measure the quality or impact either.
A thread on this would be most welcomed.
this, it has got No 10 fingerprints all over it.
Leave are in for a complete battering over the next two weeks. The PM and No 10 are going to be absolutely brutal.
Its time has come and gone, and it needs a replacement that is truly economically liberal, and instinctively less authoritarian. If that were to happen, it would kill off UKIP as well, which would be a great positive.
Why would they?
And those polls included a majority of English voters.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eu-referendum-two-leaps-in-the-dark/
Where Jezza will come into his own will be after the referendum if it's LEAVE and the PLP think they will be able to conspire with the government to thwart the will of the British people. At that point Jezza will have to tell them very clearly that the games up.
BBC News
ITV News
Sky News
Granted, Wollaston is from the far left of the Tory Party so in that regard was always non-standard Leave fodder. But she is also a rebellious sort, being no great fan of Cameron. She is also widely respected as a professional in her own right, was chosen in an open primary by her own constituent, and is a solid expert supporter of the NHS. Few people would've heard of her until yesterday. Now they have.
Sturgeon's 'bucket of cold sick' quotient may be rather lower outside the PB Torysphere.
'Poll shows Sturgeon is now the most popular politician across Britain
The poll, conducted during the middle of this month, shows that across Britain Ms Sturgeon has the highest net approval rating of +33; a record for TNS. She is followed by Ukip's Nigel Farage on +12, Conservative leader David Cameron on +7, Labour leader Ed Miliband on -8 and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg on -22.
Among men, she has the highest net rating of +32 and among women of +35. Similarly, she tops ratings across every different age group from +17 among 18 to 24-year-olds to +43 among over 65s.
In every part of Britain,the First Minister is also top of the polling from +30 in north-east England to +38 in Wales and the West Country and +33 in Greater London.'
http://tinyurl.com/j4ekj2l
Opinium had Remain with a 20% lead across London last week; Yougov had Remain with a 14% lead across London this week.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/09/eu-referendum-live-wollaston-remain-vote-leave-sturgeon-johnson?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
Sheep.
I think Hague is a decent and, clearly, sensitive man.
The best attended debate at the uni deb soc 20 years ago was always the annual take-the-other-side debate, usually on something particularly entrenched or controversial. The Christian Union vs the Feminist Society, each arguing the other side of the abortion debate was a very memorable and thought provoking evening.
1997 Labour
2001 (didn't bother)
2005 Lib-Dem
2010 Conservative
2015 Conservative
2020 (no idea except it almost certainly won't be Con)
There are actually a surprising number of "hypocrites" who change their voting preferences with the changing time's.