''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
I've not had it officially confirmed, but I believe we're going to get weekly ICM phone polls for the rest of the campaign, next week's one might be the most important poll of the campaign.
If Leave still retain a lead, or increase their lead, then we're going to see some real shift over on Betfair, Remain are already down to 71%
If the next poll is a reversion to the status quo ante bellum, then expectations will move back to where it was before the ICM polls came out
Agreed. Do you know when next week's ICM poll will be published?
Well I know the ICM online poll will come out Mon/Tue of next week, I'm hoping we'll get the phone poll at the same time.
The only poll I do know for sure we're getting this weekend is the Opinium online poll for the Observer
Mon/Tue is a little too imprecise. Can you narrow it down?
I can't. If they get a poorer than usual response rate, the fieldwork takes an extra day
I did wonder about the strong laughter on the WW3 remark last night at Cameron's expense. We also know that it polling, Cameron's trust ratings are woeful, it used to be a strength.
Tim Stanley @timothy_stanley 17h17 hours ago The breakdown in trust with David Cameron is palpable. This audience doesn't believe a word.
Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound Cameron's war claims have cut through. They are the object of public ridicule if Sky's audience is anything to go by. His worst mistake
Of these, Shippers should really worry REMAIN. He iscloser to No. 10 and 11 and these days often parrots some of their lines when on tv.
I wonder whether Dublin might grow into more of a rival to the City than Frankfurt, Paris or Milan?
The Baltics would be worth watching too. Vilnius would be likely to do well out of Brexit.
So a fair few EU centres would do well if the City were no longer inside the EU. Can someone tell me again why they would then agree terms that allowed the City to retain the benefits it currently enjoys as a result of EU membership without us giving something very major back?
Mr. Observer, the problem with all this, "The City will collapse" talk is that we have heard it before. We were told, not least by many of the same people, that unless we joined the Euro the City would decamp to Frankfurt, remember that?
Sorry, old boy, but these scare stories pass me by.
One of the morals of the story of the boy who cried wolf is that the wolf did eventually appear.
As it happens, i don't think that Brexit would be disastrous for the City; it would get by fine. Other potential threats to it - excessive tax or stifling regulation - would be more likely to see it decamp elsewhere (though not, in all likelihood, within the EU).
That said, one enormous advantage that the City has, rather like the US Dollar as reserve currency, is that there simply aren't any alternatives that don't have at least one major drawback.
Who said that the City would collapse? It seems that the consensus on here is that in the Brexit negotiations the UK will cede regulatory control of the City (ie UK sovereignty) to the EU in order to keep things pretty much as they are. I wonder how many other areas we will end up doing this in.
Cards on the table: my biggest worry about Brexit is Boris becomes PM and gets a really shit deal.
I don't want him anywhere near the negotiating table.
I think Gove would probably get the job, though I hope Andrea Leadsom is given a role.
Shudders. Come back Dave, all is forgiven. The Tories just don't seem to have any idea who much of an asset Cameron is to them.
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
0_o
Which other very lucrative industries would you like us to lose??
Thanks to inept (mostly Tory) governments over the past 40 years, we don't have any (other than the brief North Sea Oil sugar rush)
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
This is getting a bit like the people who claim that the grandparents who fought in WW2 would have thought this or that. Is there any concrete evidence of what most people thought in 1975? That isn't how remember it (I was 25 at the time).
Personally I was opposed to membership, for early-day Corbyn reasons, but I remember my dad was very much in favour of a politically united Europe and the European Movement, which he belonged to, was getting plenty of coverage for that view. It's quite unfashionable now, but the older generation in those days felt the equation European union=no war was an absolutely deciding factor.
Nick, I think one only needs to look at Heath's television broadcast in which he said the sovereignty of the UK would not be affected and it in fact it was just about trade.
On the basis that the great and the good said it was about trade and Parliament would remain sovereign over our affairs I voted to stay in. After all, all the senior people who I trusted (I was young) said the EEC was the right thing for us and it was only the loonies like Benn, Shore, Powell who said it wasn't. Turned out Heath was lying through his teeth (as he subsequently admitted) and the loonies were correct.
Now, forty years later you, who voted no, now want to stay in and I, who voted yes, now want to get out. Funny world.
Just been out leafleting with a friend (for the first time ever in my life) in sunny Liverpool. We must have covered over 500 or 600 houses at least. #VoteLeave #Yes2Independence
Seems leisurely. Two people ought to be able to deliver 100+ each per hour in all but posh / sparsely-populated areas (and posh zones tend to be easier these days as so many have electric gates and letterboxes accessible from the pavement).
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
Cards on the table: my biggest worry about Brexit is Boris becomes PM and gets a really shit deal.
I don't want him anywhere near the negotiating table.
Given no Tory members on here, nor anywhere else I read would vote for him, I think we're safe.
Except for every single opinion poll on the subject.
I've got a discussion of this and other post-Brexit thoughts (which I've tried to make reasonably objective) kindly scheduled by TSE in one of tomorrow's threads.
And irrelevant unless the Tories offer £3 memberships. And forget having a qualifying period of membership too.
People with little information, and no skin in the game, are allowed to decide the futures and livelihoods of those of us who work in a globalised city with European customers, and whose businesses would be sorely, possibly critically, damaged by a result of their self-serving isolationism.
But just think of all that lovely Sovereignty you get in return...
This thread is just another confirmation of my belief that the Tory party is well and truly fecked after June 24th. It'd be funny, if it didn't lead to the feeling that Corbyn's Labour might actually take advantage of the ensuing chaos.
Labour's going to be busy with Chilcott for a while, I suspect
Sorry its a bit of mess, but haven't time to convert the Excel properly. You get the idea.
Lots of caveats of course, although it could be even worse for Remain as the age demographic for 18-24 actually includes 15-17 year olds as thats the way the demographics are presented.
No doubt someone will point out the huge flaw I've failed to spot, but I think it reinforces the view that UK could be leaving EU because of the votes of older people whilst the young sit on their hands and fiddle with snapchat.
You need to factor in the following
1) Northern Ireland 2) Gibralatar 3) Ex pats
None of whom are polled by most EURef polls.
My own back of a fag packet calculation has this worth about 1.2% to 1.5% to Remain
Gibraltar's population is about the same as a small town so not really worth considering. The other two should, however, have a measurable impact.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
And inches - who knows whether someone who is 1.75m tall is average height, above or below.
Dublin is a surprisingly dismal city. I spent four days there for a wedding, expecting a Celtic cultural wonderland. I got a very expensive, less interesting, version of Manchester. Edinburgh is streets ahead of it, despite being very slightly smaller.
It is certainly very very expensive. That was my take away from the place.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
If it has been so dishonest it's strange none of the other 27 are in the departure lounge.
...and all 27 other members are overwhelming positive about the EU, no?
No country is overwhelmingly positive about anything, France may have Le Pen etc but I don't see anyone else seriously making for the exit.
I've not had it officially confirmed, but I believe we're going to get weekly ICM phone polls for the rest of the campaign, next week's one might be the most important poll of the campaign.
If Leave still retain a lead, or increase their lead, then we're going to see some real shift over on Betfair, Remain are already down to 71%
If the next poll is a reversion to the status quo ante bellum, then expectations will move back to where it was before the ICM polls came out
Agreed. Do you know when next week's ICM poll will be published?
Well I know the ICM online poll will come out Mon/Tue of next week, I'm hoping we'll get the phone poll at the same time.
The only poll I do know for sure we're getting this weekend is the Opinium online poll for the Observer
Mon/Tue is a little too imprecise. Can you narrow it down?
I can't. If they get a poorer than usual response rate, the fieldwork takes an extra day
which might influence the result? considering the online issues discussed in't podcast, I'd be inclined to worry about a phone poll which was collected unusually slowly (or unusually quickly)
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
@Casino_Royale Do you think it would reasonable and generous to impose a points system for migration and then be outraged when countries affected suggest that they might do the same in return?
Candidly, I believe that Leavers are being utterly delusional about how the renegotiation would be carried out. They seem to believe that they can get everything they want pain-free without making any concessions on points of concern on the other side and that it will all be tickety boo in a week or two once it's blown over because that would be "better". To me that sounds barking mad.
They have a delusional idea of the esteem the UK is held in by the rest of Europe. It is respected as are many of the countries in the EU but not more than.
I'm starting to get the very uneasy feeling that this referendum is being decided by the old the very old and the Colonel Blimps and few of them will be around to face the lasting consequences.
I suppose most Leavers don't expect the calamities of Brexit to penetrate their nursing homes. I'm all right Jack seems to be the attitude. However, a lot of carers in these places are from Spain or Portugal. They'd better hope such people get past the point-system firewall. Otherwise the fees are going to sky rocket.
It is extraordinary that we're allowing our freedoms to trade to be summarily taken from us by people who are completely unaffected. It's like giving the public a vote on an oil tanker driver's strike at BP.
Well this is the core – and critical – problem with referendums, is it not? Another reason why this blasted Euro poll shouldn't ever have been allowed to happen. People with little information, and no skin in the game, are allowed to decide the futures and livelihoods of those of us who work in a globalised city with European customers, and whose businesses would be sorely, possibly critically, damaged by a result of their self-serving isolationism.
Wouldn't it be best if we just didn't allow people to vote at all?
I wonder whether Dublin might grow into more of a rival to the City than Frankfurt, Paris or Milan?
The Baltics would be worth watching too. Vilnius would be likely to do well out of Brexit.
So a fair few EU centres would do well if the City were no longer inside the EU. Can someone tell me again why they would then agree terms that allowed the City to retain the benefits it currently enjoys as a result of EU membership without us giving something very major back?
Mr. Observer, the problem with all this, "The City will collapse" talk is that we have heard it before. We were told, not least by many of the same people, that unless we joined the Euro the City would decamp to Frankfurt, remember that?
Sorry, old boy, but these scare stories pass me by.
One of the morals of the story of the boy who cried wolf is that the wolf did eventually appear.
As it happens, i don't think that Brexit would be disastrous for the City; it would get by fine. Other potential threats to it - excessive tax or stifling regulation - would be more likely to see it decamp elsewhere (though not, in all likelihood, within the EU).
That said, one enormous advantage that the City has, rather like the US Dollar as reserve currency, is that there simply aren't any alternatives that don't have at least one major drawback.
Who said that the City would collapse? It seems that the consensus on here is that in the Brexit negotiations the UK will cede regulatory control of the City (ie UK sovereignty) to the EU in order to keep things pretty much as they are. I wonder how many other areas we will end up doing this in.
Cards on the table: my biggest worry about Brexit is Boris becomes PM and gets a really shit deal.
I don't want him anywhere near the negotiating table.
I think Gove would probably get the job, though I hope Andrea Leadsom is given a role.
Shudders. Come back Dave, all is forgiven. The Tories just don't seem to have any idea who much of an asset Cameron is to them.
Rather like Churchill's comment on the US, the Conservative party will always do the right thing electorally - after first exhausting the other possibilities.
Leave supporters will no doubt be claiming that the EU funds the magazine in some way or other.
No - but you look at the assumptions.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
And why should we still be contributing to the EU budget - does America?
Shudders. Come back Dave, all is forgiven. The Tories just don't seem to have any idea who much of an asset Cameron is to them.
Used to be. Not is. The left hates Dave because of Osborne now. The right hates Dave because he misrepresented himself to them as 'one of us' - and they are feeling horribly betrayed in the same way Labour feel about Blair. Dave's 'core' is now Tory wet Europhile metrosexuals. He's lost his electoral attraction and when politicians lose this they never get it back. We have moved beyond Peak Dave and are about to witness its aftermath, whatever the result.
Im sorry but that is nonsense.Lost his electoral attraction?
I wonder whether Dublin might grow into more of a rival to the City than Frankfurt, Paris or Milan?
The Baltics would be worth watching too. Vilnius would be likely to do well out of Brexit.
So a fair few EU centres would do well if the City were no longer inside the EU. Can someone tell me again why they would then agree terms that allowed the City to retain the benefits it currently enjoys as a result of EU membership without us giving something very major back?
Mr. Observer, the problem with all this, "The City will collapse" talk is that we have heard it before. We were told, not least by many of the same people, that unless we joined the Euro the City would decamp to Frankfurt, remember that?
Sorry, old boy, but these scare stories pass me by.
One of the morals of the story of the boy who cried wolf is that the wolf did eventually appear.
As it happens, i don't think that Brexit would be disastrous for the City; it would get by fine. Other potential threats to it - excessive tax or stifling regulation - would be more likely to see it decamp elsewhere (though not, in all likelihood, within the EU).
That said, one enormous advantage that the City has, rather like the US Dollar as reserve currency, is that there simply aren't any alternatives that don't have at least one major drawback.
Who said that the City would collapse? It seems that the consensus on here is that in the Brexit negotiations the UK will cede regulatory control of the City (ie UK sovereignty) to the EU in order to keep things pretty much as they are. I wonder how many other areas we will end up doing this in.
Cards on the table: my biggest worry about Brexit is Boris becomes PM and gets a really shit deal.
I don't want him anywhere near the negotiating table.
I think Gove would probably get the job, though I hope Andrea Leadsom is given a role.
Shudders. Come back Dave, all is forgiven. The Tories just don't seem to have any idea who much of an asset Cameron is to them.
I think it's clear that Cameron is a busted flush now. He's gone, probably sooner rather than later, whichever way the referendum falls.
@Casino_Royale Do you think it would reasonable and generous to impose a points system for migration and then be outraged when countries affected suggest that they might do the same in return?
Candidly, I believe that Leavers are being utterly delusional about how the renegotiation would be carried out. They seem to believe that they can get everything they want pain-free without making any concessions on points of concern on the other side and that it will all be tickety boo in a week or two once it's blown over because that would be "better". To me that sounds barking mad.
They have a delusional idea of the esteem the UK is held in by the rest of Europe. It is respected as are many of the countries in the EU but not more than.
I'm starting to get the very uneasy feeling that this referendum is being decided by the old the very old and the Colonel Blimps and few of them will be around to face the lasting consequences.
I suppose most Leavers don't expect the calamities of Brexit to penetrate their nursing homes. I'm all right Jack seems to be the attitude. However, a lot of carers in these places are from Spain or Portugal. They'd better hope such people get past the point-system firewall. Otherwise the fees are going to sky rocket.
It is extraordinary that we're allowing our freedoms to trade to be summarily taken from us by people who are completely unaffected. It's like giving the public a vote on an oil tanker driver's strike at BP.
Well this is the core – and critical – problem with referendums, is it not? Another reason why this blasted Euro poll shouldn't ever have been allowed to happen. People with little information, and no skin in the game, are allowed to decide the futures and livelihoods of those of us who work in a globalised city with European customers, and whose businesses would be sorely, possibly critically, damaged by a result of their self-serving isolationism.
It's democracy. We just have to hope that Boris, Nigel and the other Leavers are right. If they are not, it is not them who will be affected, of course, but countless families up and down the country. Cameron, meanwhile, who everyone wants to give a bloody nose to - or something like that - will retire, defeated, to one of his homes and will live out his days in complete comfort, safe in the knowledge that his family, too, will be totally unharmed if the Leave side has got it wrong. I repeat, the only ones who are going to suffer should it turn out the Remain warnings on the economy were right will be regular punters. In the same way, if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014 it would have been ordinary Scots who would have paid the price for the SNP's false assertions.
@Casino_Royale Do you think it would reasonable and generous to impose a points system for migration and then be outraged when countries affected suggest that they might do the same in return?
Candidly, I believe that Leavers are being utterly delusional about how the renegotiation would be carried out. They seem to believe that they can get everything they want pain-free without making any concessions on points of concern on the other side and that it will all be tickety boo in a week or two once it's blown over because that would be "better". To me that sounds barking mad.
They have a delusional idea of the esteem the UK is held in by the rest of Europe. It is respected as are many of the countries in the EU but not more than.
I'm starting to get the very uneasy feeling that this referendum is being decided by the old the very old and the Colonel Blimps and few of them will be around to face the lasting consequences.
I suppose most Leavers don't expect the calamities of Brexit to penetrate their nursing homes. I'm all right Jack seems to be the attitude. However, a lot of carers in these places are from Spain or Portugal. They'd better hope such people get past the point-system firewall. Otherwise the fees are going to sky rocket.
It is extraordinary that we're allowing our freedoms to trade to be summarily taken from us by people who are completely unaffected. It's like giving the public a vote on an oil tanker driver's strike at BP.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
I'm fully metricated now. I don't know my weight in stones anymore and I measure distances in kilos. Still like a pint, mind.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
I'm fully metricated now. I don't know my weight in stones anymore and I measure distances in kilos. Still like a pint, mind.
"Half a litre isn't enough - it doesn't satisfy. And a litre is too much - it makes my bladder run" - Prole in 1984
Dublin is a surprisingly dismal city. I spent four days there for a wedding, expecting a Celtic cultural wonderland. I got a very expensive, less interesting, version of Manchester. Edinburgh is streets ahead of it, despite being very slightly smaller.
It's Haringey with green post boxes if memory serves me right.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
Yes, I realise that. My point, though, is that if we were still using imperial units for everything today, and the EU were to propose that the UK change its system of units, the anti-EU crowd would have a field day. Back then, though, it was largely accepted as a reasonable step towards European unity.
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
I'm fully metricated now. I don't know my weight in stones anymore and I measure distances in kilos. Still like a pint, mind.
What's the point in measuring distances in km when all UK signs are in miles?
Cameron, meanwhile, who everyone wants to give a bloody nose to - or something like that - will retire, defeated, to one of his homes and will live out his days in complete comfort, safe in the knowledge that his family, too, will be totally unharmed if the Leave side has got it wrong. I repeat, the only ones who are going to suffer should it turn out the Remain warnings on the economy were right will be regular punters. In the same way, if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014 it would have been ordinary Scots who would have paid the price for the SNP's false assertions.
I do wonder if (in the event a Leave vote) Cameron will trigger Article 50, announce a leadership election and immediately resign his seat. No point staying on the back benches
Leave supporters will no doubt be claiming that the EU funds the magazine in some way or other.
No - but you look at the assumptions.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
And why should we still be contributing to the EU budget - does America?
Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland (the EFTA countries) do contribute, albeit to a much smaller extent than we do. Canada, the US and Mexico pay fees for the upkeep of NAFTA.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
So let me get this straight.
The EU has precisely zero tariffs with Turkey, dominated by an islamist despot, but would seek to impose punitive barriers on free, democratic, western Britain.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
This is getting a bit like the people who claim that the grandparents who fought in WW2 would have thought this or that. Is there any concrete evidence of what most people thought in 1975? That isn't how remember it (I was 25 at the time).
Personally I was opposed to membership, for early-day Corbyn reasons, but I remember my dad was very much in favour of a politically united Europe and the European Movement, which he belonged to, was getting plenty of coverage for that view. It's quite unfashionable now, but the older generation in those days felt the equation European union=no war was an absolutely deciding factor.
Nick, I think one only needs to look at Heath's television broadcast in which he said the sovereignty of the UK would not be affected and it in fact it was just about trade.
On the basis that the great and the good said it was about trade and Parliament would remain sovereign over our affairs I voted to stay in. After all, all the senior people who I trusted (I was young) said the EEC was the right thing for us and it was only the loonies like Benn, Shore, Powell who said it wasn't. Turned out Heath was lying through his teeth (as he subsequently admitted) and the loonies were correct.
Now, forty years later you, who voted no, now want to stay in and I, who voted yes, now want to get out. Funny world.
Yes, Margaret Thatcher wore a jacket with European flags on and Margaret Beckett was a firebrand anti EEC.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
If it has been so dishonest it's strange none of the other 27 are in the departure lounge.
...and all 27 other members are overwhelming positive about the EU, no?
No country is overwhelmingly positive about anything, France may have Le Pen etc but I don't see anyone else seriously making for the exit.
If you like at "Exports to the EU as a percent of GDP", we are around 10%; I don't think any other EU country is below 25%, so we are uniquely unintegrated. This does mean that any other country leaving the EU would have much greater concerns about losing trading access.
(I think Norway and Switzerland both have exports to the EU of c. 25% of GDP too.)
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
I'm fully metricated now. I don't know my weight in stones anymore and I measure distances in kilos. Still like a pint, mind.
What's the point in measuring distances in km when all UK signs are in miles?
sorry, I don't live in the UK anymore that's why I metricated. my point was really that I don't miss the measures so much. Apologies for the confusion
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
Mr. Booth, the rise of the City and the "gentleman capitalists" goes back a lot further than 130 years. I'd argue that its malign effects can be seen as long ago as the 18th century with the diversion of capital from productive sectors to the get rich quick schemes of the sugar trade and the Empire. However, I would agree that it's real malignancy only became apparent in the late 19th century, when, because of our chronic underinvestment, both Germany and the USA began to overhaul the UK as manufacturers.
The City though, despite its long term deleterious effect on the British economy, has always had the short term effect of producing lots of money for HMG to tax and that has always appealed more to politicians, who never seem to be able to think beyond the next election. Gordon Brown being a classic example.
In an ideal world the City should become a progressively less important part of our economy. Something that Osborne was talking about not so long ago, "march of the makers", "rebalancing the economy" and all that stuff. Unfortunately, like his Boss, he seems to be good at the words, the actions not so much.
This thread is just another confirmation of my belief that the Tory party is well and truly fecked after June 24th. It'd be funny, if it didn't lead to the feeling that Corbyn's Labour might actually take advantage of the ensuing chaos.
Labour's going to be busy with Chilcott for a while, I suspect
I don't think so. Indeed, I expect that the current leadership is quite looking forward to Chilcott.
" ... After all, all the senior people who I trusted (I was young) said the EEC was the right thing for us ..."
Quoting myself is shocking bad form I know but just thinking that through a little bit. Perhaps because of my first two careers (Army, Civil Service) I always retained some element of trust in the people in charge. Surely no PM would lie to me over a matter of such importance as going to war or the future of the Nation, they just wouldn't do it. Perhaps I begin to see why the Chilcott report will not be released until after the referendum.
Not that it matters now. Levels of trust in Cameron are very low and he has no one to blame but himself.
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
Wales will vote similarly to England, perhaps about 2% more inclined to Remain.
Leave supporters will no doubt be claiming that the EU funds the magazine in some way or other.
No - but you look at the assumptions.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
And why should we still be contributing to the EU budget - does America?
Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland (the EFTA countries) do contribute, albeit to a much smaller extent than we do. Canada, the US and Mexico pay fees for the upkeep of NAFTA.
"Half a litre isn't enough - it doesn't satisfy. And a litre is too much - it makes my bladder run" - Prole in 1984
1984 the novel? don't remembr that. anyway, I do drink less than in the past, and in a varying glass size. but the difference between a half litre and a pint is barely a mouthful, isn't it?
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
SkyData had Scotland over 60% Remain, mid 50s for NI, c50 for Wales and pro-Leave by couple of points for England.
Scotland stood out. Sorry, can't recall the exact numbers off top of my head.
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
Cameron and Osborne killed off the EU case a long time ago when they indulged the Tory right and started "talking tough" on immigration - making promises about tens of thousands, saying 40% of EU immigrants were on benefits and so on. You cannot blame voters for hearing these things and for wondering why on earth everything has now changed. Dave and George are reaping what they sowed and that may end up doing significant harm to a large number of people. Let us hope not.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
Yes, I realise that. My point, though, is that if we were still using imperial units for everything today, and the EU were to propose that the UK change its system of units, the anti-EU crowd would have a field day. Back then, though, it was largely accepted as a reasonable step towards European unity.
Interesting. I don't recollect that, initially, metrication had anything to do with the Common Market as it then was. Metrication was about scientific/technical utility to start with.
ISTR it was decimalisation of the currency that was the first tender sprig of the CM.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
So let me get this straight.
The EU has precisely zero tariffs with Turkey, dominated by an islamist despot, but would seek to impose punitive barriers on free, democratic, western Britain.
Non-tariff barriers rather than tariff ones, I am sure.
This thread is just another confirmation of my belief that the Tory party is well and truly fecked after June 24th. It'd be funny, if it didn't lead to the feeling that Corbyn's Labour might actually take advantage of the ensuing chaos.
Labour's going to be busy with Chilcott for a while, I suspect
I don't think so. Indeed, I expect that the current leadership is quite looking forward to Chilcott.
sure, but will they be paying attention to opposing the govt, or opposing the last blair govt?
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
Would Wales, Scotland, NI and Gibraltar join NATO and build their own armed forces?
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
Cameron and Osborne killed off the EU case a long time ago when they indulged the Tory right and started "talking tough" on immigration - making promises about tens of thousands, saying 40% of EU immigrants were on benefits and so on. You cannot blame voters for hearing these things and for wondering why on earth everything has now changed. Dave and George are reaping what they sowed and that may end up doing significant harm to a large number of people. Let us hope not.
It's too soon to throw in the towel. I think Remain will scrape home.
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
0_o
Which other very lucrative industries would you like us to lose??
Thanks to inept (mostly Tory) governments over the past 40 years, we don't have any (other than the brief North Sea Oil sugar rush)
I'm going to miss your posts next week when you're back in nursery school
Out of interest, what is the proper definition of an export?
I ask because I am now in Barcelona (at the Hotel Arts - very nice) for our big event that starts on Sunday. We organised it out of the UK and have invoiced from the UK, are we exporting something in some way, therefore?
As I predicted: odysseanproject @odysseanproject Hearing No10 considering a promise of a special referendum just on Turkey to try to escape disastrous 'pave the road'. Won't work
Is this the start of the "EU Vow" which I wondered about? There is also:- 1. The emergency brake. 2. A cut in the EU contributions.
They will feel they will have to do something to regain the headlines and the initiative.
I'm not sure what impact it will have:
Assuming the latest that they can announce this is Weds 22nd, then they have 18 days to agree any aspects that the EU countries need to endorse. Only 10 are weekdays. Time is running out to get 27 countries agreement.
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
0_o
Which other very lucrative industries would you like us to lose??
Thanks to inept (mostly Tory) governments over the past 40 years, we don't have any (other than the brief North Sea Oil sugar rush)
I'm going to miss your posts next week when you're back in nursery school
Sunil, your posts have become mighty brief of late. Are you sure you haven't been kidnapped and replaced by a Sunilbot?
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
Would Wales, Scotland, NI and Gibraltar join NATO and build their own armed forces?
Leave supporters will no doubt be claiming that the EU funds the magazine in some way or other.
No - but you look at the assumptions.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
And why should we still be contributing to the EU budget - does America?
Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland (the EFTA countries) do contribute, albeit to a much smaller extent than we do. Canada, the US and Mexico pay fees for the upkeep of NAFTA.
But the question is - how much do they pay, relative to the UK's contribution to Brussels?
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
Cameron and Osborne killed off the EU case a long time ago when they indulged the Tory right and started "talking tough" on immigration - making promises about tens of thousands, saying 40% of EU immigrants were on benefits and so on. You cannot blame voters for hearing these things and for wondering why on earth everything has now changed. Dave and George are reaping what they sowed and that may end up doing significant harm to a large number of people. Let us hope not.
It's too soon to throw in the towel. I think Remain will scrape home.
I am not throwing in the towel. I have always thought that Leave would win. Remain was never going to survive a campaign based around immigration; and this was always going to be a campaign based around immigration.
This thread is just another confirmation of my belief that the Tory party is well and truly fecked after June 24th. It'd be funny, if it didn't lead to the feeling that Corbyn's Labour might actually take advantage of the ensuing chaos.
Labour's going to be busy with Chilcott for a while, I suspect
It is hardly comparable though given that Blair has effectively been repudiated by his party and is widely reviled by its members - many of whom wish to see him put on trial.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
Yes, I realise that. My point, though, is that if we were still using imperial units for everything today, and the EU were to propose that the UK change its system of units, the anti-EU crowd would have a field day. Back then, though, it was largely accepted as a reasonable step towards European unity.
Interesting. I don't recollect that, initially, metrication had anything to do with the Common Market as it then was. Metrication was about scientific/technical utility to start with.
ISTR it was decimalisation of the currency that was the first tender sprig of the CM.
Decimalisation was first proposed in the 1830s. That's why Britain ended up with two coins of such similar value: the florin and half-crown.
It eventually took place two years before Britain joined the EEC.
@Casino_Royale Do you think it would reasonable and generous to impose a points system for migration and then be outraged when countries affected suggest that they might do the same in return?
Candidly, I believe that Leavers are being utterly delusional about how the renegotiation would be carried out. They seem to believe that they can get everything they want pain-free without making any concessions on points of concern on the other side and that it will all be tickety boo in a week or two once it's blown over because that would be "better". To me that sounds barking mad.
They have a delusional idea of the esteem the UK is held in by the rest of Europe. It is respected as are many of the countries in the EU but not more than.
I'm starting to get the very uneasy feeling that this referendum is being decided by the old the very old and the Colonel Blimps and few of them will be around to face the lasting consequences.
I suppose most Leavers don't expect the calamities of Brexit to penetrate their nursing homes. I'm all right Jack seems to be the attitude. However, a lot of carers in these places are from Spain or Portugal. They'd better hope such people get past the point-system firewall. Otherwise the fees are going to sky rocket.
It is extraordinary that we're allowing our freedoms to trade to be summarily taken from us by people who are completely unaffected. It's like giving the public a vote on an oil tanker driver's strike at BP.
Well this is the core – and critical – problem with referendums, is it not? Another reason why this blasted Euro poll shouldn't ever have been allowed to happen. People with little information, and no skin in the game, are allowed to decide the futures and livelihoods of those of us who work in a globalised city with European customers, and whose businesses would be sorely, possibly critically, damaged by a result of their self-serving isolationism.
Wouldn't it be best if we just didn't allow people to vote at all?
Obviously you are confusing the concept of representative democracy with direct democracy. I support the former, and despise the latter.
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
Mr. Booth, the rise of the City and the "gentleman capitalists" goes back a lot further than 130 years. I'd argue that its malign effects can be seen as long ago as the 18th century with the diversion of capital from productive sectors to the get rich quick schemes of the sugar trade and the Empire. However, I would agree that it's real malignancy only became apparent in the late 19th century, when, because of our chronic underinvestment, both Germany and the USA began to overhaul the UK as manufacturers.
The City though, despite its long term deleterious effect on the British economy, has always had the short term effect of producing lots of money for HMG to tax and that has always appealed more to politicians, who never seem to be able to think beyond the next election. Gordon Brown being a classic example.
In an ideal world the City should become a progressively less important part of our economy. Something that Osborne was talking about not so long ago, "march of the makers", "rebalancing the economy" and all that stuff. Unfortunately, like his Boss, he seems to be good at the words, the actions not so much.
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
Cameron and Osborne killed off the EU case a long time ago when they indulged the Tory right and started "talking tough" on immigration - making promises about tens of thousands, saying 40% of EU immigrants were on benefits and so on. You cannot blame voters for hearing these things and for wondering why on earth everything has now changed. Dave and George are reaping what they sowed and that may end up doing significant harm to a large number of people. Let us hope not.
It's too soon to throw in the towel. I think Remain will scrape home.
But I'll tell ya - you can tell Dave now if you're watching it - we're still fighting for this Referendum, and he's got to go to the TV debates and get something, and... and I tell you honestly, I will love it if we beat them, love it!
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
And inches - who knows whether someone who is 1.75m tall is average height, above or below.
Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
The metrication process stopped dead long ago. The EU pragmatically gave up on us because, as a nation, we are culturally tied to imperial measurements. There are no plans to metricate pints and miles anymore. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
So let me get this straight.
The EU has precisely zero tariffs with Turkey, dominated by an islamist despot, but would seek to impose punitive barriers on free, democratic, western Britain.
"Half a litre isn't enough - it doesn't satisfy. And a litre is too much - it makes my bladder run" - Prole in 1984
1984 the novel? don't remembr that. anyway, I do drink less than in the past, and in a varying glass size. but the difference between a half litre and a pint is barely a mouthful, isn't it?
About 13% - 1 pint = 0.568.. litres - the actual quote (from 1984 the book)
‘‘E could ’a drawed me off a pint,’ grumbled the old man as he settled down behind a glass. ‘A ’alf litre ain’t enough. It don’t satisfy. And a ’ole litre’s too much. It starts my bladder running. Let alone the price.’
(Interesting few paragraphs before that about the lottery, how it affected the proles, and that it was fixed, with no big prizes (rather like in The Running Man, and in the Chicago Numbers racket))
@Casino_Royale Do you think it would reasonable and generous to impose a points system for migration and then be outraged when countries affected suggest that they might do the same in return?
Candidly, I believe that Leavers are being utterly delusional about how the renegotiation would be carried out. They seem to believe that they can get everything they want pain-free without making any concessions on points of concern on the other side and that it will all be tickety boo in a week or two once it's blown over because that would be "better". To me that sounds barking mad.
They have a delusional idea of the esteem the UK is held in by the rest of Europe. It is respected as are many of the countries in the EU but not more than.
I'm starting to get the very uneasy feeling that this referendum is being decided by the old the very old and the Colonel Blimps and few of them will be around to face the lasting consequences.
I suppose most Leavers don't expect the calamities of Brexit to penetrate their nursing homes. I'm all right Jack seems to be the attitude. However, a lot of carers in these places are from Spain or Portugal. They'd better hope such people get past the point-system firewall. Otherwise the fees are going to sky rocket.
It is extraordinary that we're allowing our freedoms to trade to be summarily taken from us by people who are completely unaffected. It's like giving the public a vote on an oil tanker driver's strike at BP.
Well this is the core – and critical – problem with referendums, is it not? Another reason why this blasted Euro poll shouldn't ever have been allowed to happen. People with little information, and no skin in the game, are allowed to decide the futures and livelihoods of those of us who work in a globalised city with European customers, and whose businesses would be sorely, possibly critically, damaged by a result of their self-serving isolationism.
Wouldn't it be best if we just didn't allow people to vote at all?
Obviously you are confusing the concept of representative democracy with direct democracy. I support the former, and despise the latter.
We are not represented by people who selflessly act in what they consider to be the best interests of the nation. We are represented by people who mostly vote as instructed by their party whips, in order to achieve personal advantage.
If one accepts the principle of democracy (and there intellectually coherent arguments against democracy) there is no good reason to object to referenda.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
Resolved to substitute for age-old rivalries the merging of their essential interests; to create, by establishing an economic community, the basis for a broader and deeper community among peoples long divided by bloody conflict; and to lay the foundations for institutions which will give direction to a destiny henceforward shared
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
The metrication process stopped dead long ago. The EU pragmatically gave up on us because, as a nation, we are culturally tied to imperial measurements. There are no plans to metricate pints and miles anymore. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm
Legally it may have stopped, but that won't stop the use of metric becoming more widespread culturally, as per the Fahrenheit example.
Labour's going to be busy with Chilcott for a while, I suspect
It is hardly comparable though given that Blair has effectively been repudiated by his party and is widely reviled by its members - many of whom wish to see him put on trial.
I just think labour is going to waste a lot of time shooting at each other. I think Blair is contemptible, but not worth the time
Gove and Boris hadn't had a particularly good campaign until now, but their focus on the immigrant problem and its solution - an Australian points-based system- was a master class. To the less-travelled Brit, Aussies are blokes with corks hanging from their hats who take no grief from the Abo. To inject this imagery into the debate on EU membership was as audacious as it was brilliant. All the economic pronouncements in the world can’t counter this kind of deadly sub-conscious primitivism. Looking back, Remain never stood a chance.
Cameron and Osborne killed off the EU case a long time ago when they indulged the Tory right and started "talking tough" on immigration - making promises about tens of thousands, saying 40% of EU immigrants were on benefits and so on. You cannot blame voters for hearing these things and for wondering why on earth everything has now changed. Dave and George are reaping what they sowed and that may end up doing significant harm to a large number of people. Let us hope not.
It's too soon to throw in the towel. I think Remain will scrape home.
I'm much less confident. I've been avoiding the news but listening to lots of vox pops and the 'Leave' messaging-though dishonest-has been penetrating like the 'red hot poker' up Edward 11's backside.
Cameron's tactics are failing because his narrative is all wrong. He's talking about it as though it's just the financial settlement after a divorce which allows Leave to say 'it won't be too bad. Don't worry'.
He should be talking about the complete and utter carnage. The first broadcast was as wrong headed as it could be.
''We weren't in at the beginning but once we decided to grace it with our presence we want everything doing our way. I can't think of one other member that behaves the way we do.''
This would be a cracking point if we weren't the second biggest net contributor and a huge employer of European Citizens.
But we are. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, sunshine.
So drop and give us twenty.
Pretty much sums up the arrogance I was commenting on.
Not so sure it's arrogance. More a fact. I've no illusions of grandeur with this country but what I do resent is being part of something that started off as a common market and rapidly morphed into something quite different. The whole project has been dishonest.
It never started as a common market.
Going right back to the beginning, the 1951 Treaty of Paris, which established the ECSC, contained within its preamble:
....
That, of course was made much more explicit later in the 1950s, with the Treaty of Rome and "ever closer union".
It is a myth that the EU and its predecessors were ever 'just about trade'.
Most British people thought that it was mostly about trade. Most politicians were either ignorant of the facts or decided not to educate the people.
I'm not so sure about that. The "ever closer union" isn't exactly hidden away in the small print. Rather, I think the UK was just generally much more enthusiastic about the European project in those days. Can you imagine, for example, a UK government agreeing to metrication nowadays?
Metrication is still happening, albeit far too slowly. Fahrenheit has completely disappeared from weather forecasts except for Daily Express headlines during hot weather. Hard to see miles and pints going though.
And inches - who knows whether someone who is 1.75m tall is average height, above or below.
Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
Whatever you might think, the imperial measures DID give an easy way of comparing anything from an inch to a mile, and people did have a good idea of what was average.
"Half a litre isn't enough - it doesn't satisfy. And a litre is too much - it makes my bladder run" - Prole in 1984
1984 the novel? don't remembr that. anyway, I do drink less than in the past, and in a varying glass size. but the difference between a half litre and a pint is barely a mouthful, isn't it?
About 13% - 1 pint = 0.568.. litres - the actual quote (from 1984 the book)
‘‘E could ’a drawed me off a pint,’ grumbled the old man as he settled down behind a glass. ‘A ’alf litre ain’t enough. It don’t satisfy. And a ’ole litre’s too much. It starts my bladder running. Let alone the price.’
(Interesting few paragraphs before that about the lottery, how it affected the proles, and that it was fixed, with no big prizes (rather like in The Running Man, and in the Chicago Numbers racket))
Out of interest, what is the proper definition of an export?
I ask because I am now in Barcelona (at the Hotel Arts - very nice) for our big event that starts on Sunday. We organised it out of the UK and have invoiced from the UK, are we exporting something in some way, therefore?
Last year I ordered a bottle of single malt whisky for HL in settlement of a wager. I ordered it on Amazon, and the bottle was delivered by a German subcontractor of Amazon. Presumably each of the distiller, Amazon, the German subcontracor and the parcel company all made a profit along the way.
That bottle was exported to from Scotland to Sussex yet counts as both a UK and a German export (and import I suppose). Disentangling trade is not always straightforward.
Personally I would like to see the managed decline of the city anyway. If it was hit in the event of Brexit it would cause us some short term difficulties but I suspect it would be a good thing in the long run. Quite why people venerate it when it's rise over the last say 130 years has gone hand in hand with the arguable overall decline of UK plc is a mystery to me.
0_o
Which other very lucrative industries would you like us to lose??
Thanks to inept (mostly Tory) governments over the past 40 years, we don't have any (other than the brief North Sea Oil sugar rush)
I'm going to miss your posts next week when you're back in nursery school
Sunil, your posts have become mighty brief of late. Are you sure you haven't been kidnapped and replaced by a Sunilbot?
I'm a polling addict, and, and I've been fighting to get off opinion polls - shut up, TSE! - and, um, for over a year. I've been in rehab twice, and I don't wanna be like people like Angus Reid, that were... and stuff like that. I wanna be a survivor.
I mean I died again on Election Night. So, I'm not... I'm not... my cats' lives are out. I... I just wanna say sorry to all the fans and stuff, and uh, I'm glad to be alive, and sorry to me mum as well.
I just want them to know that it's not cool. It's not a cool thing to be an addict. It's not... you know, you're a slave to it, and it took... it's taken everything away from me that I loved, and so I've got to rebuild my life.
Former high-ranking Fifa officials Sepp Blatter, Jerome Valcke and Markus Kattner awarded themselves pay rises and bonuses worth $80m (£55m) over five years, say Fifa lawyers.
Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
"Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though."
Bollocks. Very few British people measure their heights in metric, even the under 25s (never mind the under 40s!).
Not true at all
I never said they didn't measure their heights in feet, but they probably don't know the exact details of feet and I nches. This of course partly due to computerisation - you don't need to know this stuff anymore when you can ask Google if you need to.
People under 40 are used to needing their height in cm for the doctor, fitness apps etc.
"Half a litre isn't enough - it doesn't satisfy. And a litre is too much - it makes my bladder run" - Prole in 1984
1984 the novel? don't remembr that. anyway, I do drink less than in the past, and in a varying glass size. but the difference between a half litre and a pint is barely a mouthful, isn't it?
About 13% - 1 pint = 0.568.. litres - the actual quote (from 1984 the book)
‘‘E could ’a drawed me off a pint,’ grumbled the old man as he settled down behind a glass. ‘A ’alf litre ain’t enough. It don’t satisfy. And a ’ole litre’s too much. It starts my bladder running. Let alone the price.’
(Interesting few paragraphs before that about the lottery, how it affected the proles, and that it was fixed, with no big prizes (rather like in The Running Man, and in the Chicago Numbers racket))
probably time to reread it.. I've forgotten all these details. Only read the essays in recent years. perhaps Don Quixote again first tho
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
So let me get this straight.
The EU has precisely zero tariffs with Turkey, dominated by an islamist despot, but would seek to impose punitive barriers on free, democratic, western Britain.
Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
"Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though."
Bollocks. Very few British people measure their heights in metric, even the under 25s (never mind the under 40s!).
I think entirely in imperial measurements, except when I talk about cold temperatures. Phew what a scorcher is 80 degrees Farenheit in my head, brass monkeys is -3 Celsius. Weights and distances are all imperial. I could not tell you how much I weigh in kilos or how many kilometres it is to London from where I live.
Amusing, but all this talk is of the Tory Party still being in power. As things stand, there are at least 30 constituencies where the police are investigating election expenses, which if found to be true will cause new elections to be called, and the imprisonment of the ex-mp's. There are several other investigations under way which also have the potential to cause Tory MP's to be disqualified.
Interesting, the tories have a majority of 18 just now, which if they lose 35 means they need a coalition partner. The SNP may be tempted, but officially getting into bed with the tories, even on a c&s would be electoral disaster at the locals next year also causing mass disengagement within the membership. Anyone else who would want to commit electoral suicide?
Amusing, but all this talk is of the Tory Party still being in power. As things stand, there are at least 30 constituencies where the police are investigating election expenses, which if found to be true will cause new elections to be called, and the imprisonment of the ex-mp's. There are several other investigations under way which also have the potential to cause Tory MP's to be disqualified.
Interesting, the tories have a majority of 18 just now, which if they lose 35 means they need a coalition partner. The SNP may be tempted, but officially getting into bed with the tories, even on a c&s would be electoral disaster at the locals next year also causing mass disengagement within the membership. Anyone else who would want to commit electoral suicide?
Think you will find all parties including the SNP's helicopter will be drawn into this. Also recent legal opinion is that if proven there would be a big fine but no action on MP's. Sorry to disappoint you
Amusing, but all this talk is of the Tory Party still being in power. As things stand, there are at least 30 constituencies where the police are investigating election expenses, which if found to be true will cause new elections to be called, and the imprisonment of the ex-mp's. There are several other investigations under way which also have the potential to cause Tory MP's to be disqualified.
Interesting, the tories have a majority of 18 just now, which if they lose 35 means they need a coalition partner. The SNP may be tempted, but officially getting into bed with the tories, even on a c&s would be electoral disaster at the locals next year also causing mass disengagement within the membership. Anyone else who would want to commit electoral suicide?
Very unlikely that Tory MPs will be imprisoned even if disqualified. The Government's majority is surely 12 - but effectively 16 due to Sinn Fein not taking their seats.
Decimalisation was first proposed in the 1830s. That's why Britain ended up with two coins of such similar value: the florin and half-crown.
It eventually took place two years before Britain joined the EEC.
The florin and the half-crown came out of 19th century plan for decimalisation? Is that really true? Could you perhaps provide a source?
One of the advantages of the old currency is that one could do most common fractions of a pound quickly in your head and their were the coins available to turn that into a reality. One third of a pound 6s 8d; two thirds was 13s 6d, a quarter 5s, and eighth 2s 6d (a half crown) and so on. I never quite understood the guinea though (£1 1s for our younger readers who may be unfamiliar with the term) .
From a mathematical perspective, every child from about the age of five or six was taught to do calculations in base 12 (pennies per shilling), base 20 (shillings per pound) and decimal (pounds) in their head and we were all very proficient at it. Marvellous mental mathematical agility training. I do wonder if the UK's decline down the mathematical proficiency tables didn't start with the decimalisation of our currency.
Comments
Tim Stanley @timothy_stanley 17h17 hours ago
The breakdown in trust with David Cameron is palpable. This audience doesn't believe a word.
Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound
Cameron's war claims have cut through. They are the object of public ridicule if Sky's audience is anything to go by. His worst mistake
Of these, Shippers should really worry REMAIN. He iscloser to No. 10 and 11 and these days often parrots some of their lines when on tv.
(Are two Tim's better than none?)
I was the same age as you in 1975, and although a Europhile then, I thought the debate was one-sided enough to make me feel embarrassed.
The Labour left wing did complain about a march to political union and were mocked for it - the original swivel-eyed loons.
Obviously, I wasn't as politically savvy as you but possibly more representative of the Labour-voting man in the street. It was all about trade to us.
It was, er, educational.......
Still haven't found the Vote Leave chap.......
On the basis that the great and the good said it was about trade and Parliament would remain sovereign over our affairs I voted to stay in. After all, all the senior people who I trusted (I was young) said the EEC was the right thing for us and it was only the loonies like Benn, Shore, Powell who said it wasn't. Turned out Heath was lying through his teeth (as he subsequently admitted) and the loonies were correct.
Now, forty years later you, who voted no, now want to stay in and I, who voted yes, now want to get out. Funny world.
Merkel portrayed as HITLER! Turkey’s relations with Germany EXPLODE over genocide claims https://t.co/qZ8Q41HPvj
That might not hold up. Also, he has to get into the final two in the MP ballot, which I think will be very tricky for him.
I've been merrily laying Boris but he does have a very definite chance.
"We assume that the UK would gain restrictions on free movement of labour and smaller contributions to the EU budget while retaining access to the EU's market for goods, but face new and prohibitive barriers to trade in services. "
And why should we still be contributing to the EU budget - does America?
Im sorry but that is nonsense.Lost his electoral attraction?
I have been wondering about the possibilities of England strongly Leave whilst Wales, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar all strongly Remain.
If, as has been suggested, the Scots wish to hold another Independence referendum as a result, would it not be much simpler if England simply seceded from the UK, leaving rUK in situ as a member of the EU?
http://capx.co/corbyn-is-getting-worse-the-man-is-a-total-twit/
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/03/boris-johnson-post-brexit-cabinet-the-possible-lineup?CMP=share_btn_tw
So let me get this straight.
The EU has precisely zero tariffs with Turkey, dominated by an islamist despot, but would seek to impose punitive barriers on free, democratic, western Britain.
Today Margaret Beckett is solidly for the EU.
Thank you, Jacques !
(I think Norway and Switzerland both have exports to the EU of c. 25% of GDP too.)
Quoting myself is shocking bad form I know but just thinking that through a little bit. Perhaps because of my first two careers (Army, Civil Service) I always retained some element of trust in the people in charge. Surely no PM would lie to me over a matter of such importance as going to war or the future of the Nation, they just wouldn't do it. Perhaps I begin to see why the Chilcott report will not be released until after the referendum.
Not that it matters now. Levels of trust in Cameron are very low and he has no one to blame but himself.
https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea
Scotland stood out. Sorry, can't recall the exact numbers off top of my head.
ISTR it was decimalisation of the currency that was the first tender sprig of the CM.
I ask because I am now in Barcelona (at the Hotel Arts - very nice) for our big event that starts on Sunday. We organised it out of the UK and have invoiced from the UK, are we exporting something in some way, therefore?
Well the principle is the same. Hostile to Free democratic Britain, welcoming to Islamist Turkey.
Not only would that policy be a complete foreign policy disaster, I reckon it wouldn;t last thirty seconds with many European capitals.
It eventually took place two years before Britain joined the EEC.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
Does this mean there is a new poll out showing REMAIN in the lead?
Edit
OR US job creation in May falls to lowest in five years.
Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though.
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
"Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though."
Bollocks. Very few British people measure their heights in metric, even the under 25s (never mind the under 40s!).
‘‘E could ’a drawed me off a pint,’ grumbled the old man as he settled down behind a glass. ‘A ’alf litre ain’t enough. It don’t satisfy. And a ’ole litre’s too much. It starts my bladder running. Let alone the price.’
(Interesting few paragraphs before that about the lottery, how it affected the proles, and that it was fixed, with no big prizes (rather like in The Running Man, and in the Chicago Numbers racket))
If one accepts the principle of democracy (and there intellectually coherent arguments against democracy) there is no good reason to object to referenda.
DELETED
I'm much less confident. I've been avoiding the news but listening to lots of vox pops and the 'Leave' messaging-though dishonest-has been penetrating like the 'red hot poker' up Edward 11's backside.
Cameron's tactics are failing because his narrative is all wrong. He's talking about it as though it's just the financial settlement after a divorce which allows Leave to say 'it won't be too bad. Don't worry'.
He should be talking about the complete and utter carnage. The first broadcast was as wrong headed as it could be.
That bottle was exported to from Scotland to Sussex yet counts as both a UK and a German export (and import I suppose). Disentangling trade is not always straightforward.
I mean I died again on Election Night. So, I'm not... I'm not... my cats' lives are out. I... I just wanna say sorry to all the fans and stuff, and uh, I'm glad to be alive, and sorry to me mum as well.
I just want them to know that it's not cool. It's not a cool thing to be an addict. It's not... you know, you're a slave to it, and it took... it's taken everything away from me that I loved, and so I've got to rebuild my life.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36445879
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
"Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though."
Bollocks. Very few British people measure their heights in metric, even the under 25s (never mind the under 40s!).
Not true at all
I never said they didn't measure their heights in feet, but they probably don't know the exact details of feet and I nches. This of course partly due to computerisation - you don't need to know this stuff anymore when you can ask Google if you need to.
People under 40 are used to needing their height in cm for the doctor, fitness apps etc.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Personally I think of small distances in metric but longer distances in miles...
"Most people aged below 40 have no idea how many inches there are in a foot though."
Bollocks. Very few British people measure their heights in metric, even the under 25s (never mind the under 40s!).
I think entirely in imperial measurements, except when I talk about cold temperatures. Phew what a scorcher is 80 degrees Farenheit in my head, brass monkeys is -3 Celsius. Weights and distances are all imperial. I could not tell you how much I weigh in kilos or how many kilometres it is to London from where I live.
Interesting, the tories have a majority of 18 just now, which if they lose 35 means they need a coalition partner. The SNP may be tempted, but officially getting into bed with the tories, even on a c&s would be electoral disaster at the locals next year also causing mass disengagement within the membership. Anyone else who would want to commit electoral suicide?
One of the advantages of the old currency is that one could do most common fractions of a pound quickly in your head and their were the coins available to turn that into a reality. One third of a pound 6s 8d; two thirds was 13s 6d, a quarter 5s, and eighth 2s 6d (a half crown) and so on. I never quite understood the guinea though (£1 1s for our younger readers who may be unfamiliar with the term) .
From a mathematical perspective, every child from about the age of five or six was taught to do calculations in base 12 (pennies per shilling), base 20 (shillings per pound) and decimal (pounds) in their head and we were all very proficient at it. Marvellous mental mathematical agility training. I do wonder if the UK's decline down the mathematical proficiency tables didn't start with the decimalisation of our currency.