There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
Yep - the entire system is about passing a series of tests, nothing else. We have a PISA obsession and so are seeking to copy what happens in some Asian countries, without looking at the end product and whether that is what will work for us. I wish we put more emphasis on the ability to analyse, to create and to ask hard questions of people in authority and of the status quo generally.
The system is increasingly designed to assess teachers rather than pupils.
Fair enough - and even a good thing - if they were assessing the right things. They ought to be assessing the ability of teachers to stimulate enthusiasm in pupils, their attempts to innovate in teaching, as professional decision takers etc - not just operate in a robotic way as happens in the USA and parts of Asia.
There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
Mr. Cole, I am sorry but I really do get very cross about the education system in this country. Most of the people that go into teaching do so for good reasons and then the system takes over and they then seem to react in three different ways:
1. They get captured by the system, forget why they came into teaching, and end up worrying about the process rather than the outcome.
2. They hang on desperately trying to stay true to themselves but despairing of the culture they have to work in (see posts on here from our good Welsh Doctor)
3. They give up and leave - I did.
Yep, my wife is a 3 too. It's such a waste because she was very good. But everything became too prescriptive and too test focused. And so much bureaucracy.
There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
Mr. Cole, I am sorry but I really do get very cross about the education system in this country. Most of the people that go into teaching do so for good reasons and then the system takes over and they then seem to react in three different ways:
1. They get captured by the system, forget why they came into teaching, and end up worrying about the process rather than the outcome.
2. They hang on desperately trying to stay true to themselves but despairing of the culture they have to work in (see posts on here from our good Welsh Doctor)
3. They give up and leave - I did.
The difficulty that my grandson seems to have is that the process is both rigorously prescribed and the prescription altered at what appear to be whimsical intervals. And, for those worried about languagues he teaches primary children and he’s currently off on a course (in the half-term week) to refresh his Spanish so he can teach it to 7 year olds in Basildon
So me saying the system is still not good enough is misty eyed nonsense.
Old re-runs of ask the family with egghead Robinson tells you all you need to know about where we are with education...
The same families exist today. Back in the day, we had a system designed to churn out young people at fourteen and fifteen to go an d work in factories and do other types of manual job, with a grammar elite at the top to work in the offices and labs. It worked very well. But the world is now very different, or at least our part of it is. Our education system has not caught up.
Yep - the entire system is about passing a series of tests, nothing else. We have a PISA obsession and so are seeking to copy what happens in some Asian countries, without looking at the end product and whether that is what will work for us. I wish we put more emphasis on the ability to analyse, to create and to ask hard questions of people in authority and of the status quo generally.
my impression of most graduate schemes is that they are looking for the sort of people who will be enthusiastic in any situation rather than people who are knowledgeable, critical, observant and analytical.
Hmm second minor earthquake today while I was typing my last post, I am sure commonplace to our friends in Japan, but a bit of a novelty to me. I was pretty close to the Bohol Earthquake a couple or so years which was very big with multiple aftershocks, but now I am living about a mile from the Philippine Deep, and hence the Ring of Fire, its a little bit more excitable around here Nothing dangerous recently, only about between 3 and 4 on the scale, but enough to get your attention!
There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
Yep - the entire system is about passing a series of tests, nothing else. We have a PISA obsession and so are seeking to copy what happens in some Asian countries, without looking at the end product and whether that is what will work for us. I wish we put more emphasis on the ability to analyse, to create and to ask hard questions of people in authority and of the status quo generally.
Yup, good points. Unfortunately in order to ask hard questions one has to understand the topic. So without a good level of knowledge the questioner won't even know what question needs to be asked of those in authority.
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
I don't remember doing half as much grammar as seems to be in the curriculum these days (1986 - 1997). English appears to have become tougher.
There was a piece in the Guardian not so long ago that argued that part of the reason we find learning foreign languages tough is that we don't understand how our own one works. I know there's been a lot of moaning about the quite technical questions on English SATs tests, but it might be a good thing in the future. That said, I fear that 11 year olds will just learn the answers for the tests rather than fully grasping how words hang together.
Without Latin, I'd have no idea. I can only recall a single English lesson that mentioned the technicalities of grammar.
Winston Churchill: By being so long [three years iirc] in the lowest form I gained an immense advantage over the cleverer boys. They all went on to learn Latin and Greek and splendid things like that. But I was taught English. We were considered such dunces that we could learn only English. Mr. Somervell -- a most delightful man, to whom my debt is great -- was charged with the duty of teaching the stupidest boys the most disregarded thing -- namely, to write mere English.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
There seems to be a lot of misty-eyed nonsense on here about education in the past. Britain has had a lot of awful state schools for many decades (as well as some very good ones).
Mr. Meeks, we still have a lot of of awful state schools, they just working to even lower standards. It is a feckin disgrace.
There is perhaps room for optimism, as per Mr. Observer's post below, but not much. The standards demanded are far too low and once a pupil is "on track" to reach that low standard they are effectively abandoned as opposed to being stretched to reach their potential. This is the curse of the league table, which has the actual effect of dumbing down standards.
If my newly qualified teacher grandson’s experience is any guide, in some areas of activity children are stretched beyond reason, in others left to find their own way.
Mr. Cole, I am sorry but I really do get very cross about the education system in this country. Most of the people that go into teaching do so for good reasons and then the system takes over and they then seem to react in three different ways:
1. They get captured by the system, forget why they came into teaching, and end up worrying about the process rather than the outcome.
2. They hang on desperately trying to stay true to themselves but despairing of the culture they have to work in (see posts on here from our good Welsh Doctor)
3. They give up and leave - I did.
4. They start a PGCE to become a Physics teacher, realise within a few months what an awful job teaching has become, quit the course and happily return to their private sector profession. That'll be me.
He was wasn’t he; none of the speed of University Challenge. I had a jacket like Mr Buswell at about that time, too.
No-one on here was a contestantt? Or knew a family who were?
My eldest sister had a pen friend who was on it. Her family made the final. During the filming they had to take a break after RR stormed out because of the other family annoying him.
He was wasn’t he; none of the speed of University Challenge. I had a jacket like Mr Buswell at about that time, too.
No-one on here was a contestantt? Or knew a family who were?
My eldest sister had a pen friend who was on it. Her family made the final. During the filming they had to take a break after RR stormed out because of the other family annoying him.
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
I went to a grammar school in Battersea. Most of my teachers were WW2 veterans, I don't suppose any of them would be allowed near a classroom today (some were certainly barking), none of them taught to the exam, but all had a passion, a love and deep understanding of their subject. Even now I can remember a magical lesson when Dr. Clarke got fired up by a question form one of my fellows and gave us 45 minutes of impromptu teaching on the development of number theory - wasn't in the lesson plan or the scheme of work (not that such things existed in those days) but it changed my life - mathematics was in and medicine was out.
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
Another example is Labour standing solidly for remaining in the UK in the scottish referendum and just over a year later it ended up as the 3rd party of Scotland.
So me saying the system is still not good enough is misty eyed nonsense.
Old re-runs of ask the family with egghead Robinson tells you all you need to know about where we are with education...
The same families exist today. Back in the day, we had a system designed to churn out young people at fourteen and fifteen to go an d work in factories and do other types of manual job, with a grammar elite at the top to work in the offices and labs. It worked very well. But the world is now very different, or at least our part of it is. Our education system has not caught up.
Is it really that different? There are still offices and labs, and there are still manual jobs. What has nosedived I guess is the old working class industrial skilled man.
Its the bedrock blue collar male worker where we have seen the decline, isn;t it?
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Some REMAINers may need to be put on suicide watch if the polls have turned.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
I went to a grammar school in Battersea. Most of my teachers were WW2 veterans, I don't suppose any of them would be allowed near a classroom today (some were certainly barking), none of them taught to the exam, but all had a passion, a love and deep understanding of their subject. Even now I can remember a magical lesson when Dr. Clarke got fired up by a question form one of my fellows and gave us 45 minutes of impromptu teaching on the development of number theory - wasn't in the lesson plan or the scheme of work (not that such things existed in those days) but it changed my life - mathematics was in and medicine was out.
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
We had an ex Singapore POW teaching us Botany and Zoology (late 50’s). Thing to do was get him onto vitamin deficiency! He also had no problem (apart from worries about a possible visit from the Head) with us smoking while dissecting dogfish, which were soaked in formalin!
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
I well recall the Cleggasm backlash. You're pro immigration? And EU? And amnesty for illegals!!! It took much of the wind from his sails.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Some REMAINers may need to be put on suicide watch if the polls have turned.
That’s what happened with AV, wasn’t it; all going well (for supporters) for ages then things turned and that was that.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Some REMAINers may need to be put on suicide watch if the polls have turned.
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
I went to a grammar school in Battersea. Most of my teachers were WW2 veterans, I don't suppose any of them would be allowed near a classroom today (some were certainly barking), none of them taught to the exam, but all had a passion, a love and deep understanding of their subject. Even now I can remember a magical lesson when Dr. Clarke got fired up by a question form one of my fellows and gave us 45 minutes of impromptu teaching on the development of number theory - wasn't in the lesson plan or the scheme of work (not that such things existed in those days) but it changed my life - mathematics was in and medicine was out.
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
Heh I achieved a Desmond for my sins, another in the "not quite good enough" mathematician stakes
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Reporting for duty! I've just been very busy the last few days, something called 'real life' getting in the way of posting on PB.
Very concerned to hear JackW is not well - I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
A betting thought: What is the chance of Boris becoming next PM in the event of a Remain result? Something like 'the square root of b-all' probably covers it, I think. In the event of a Leave result, he'd have a much better chance, but, even so, would by no means be a shoo-in.
So how come best odds on Boris for Next PM (3.75) are shorter than the odds on Leave (4.5)? One or both of these must be wrong, methinks. Possibly both - Boris should be longer, Leave should possibly be a bit shorter.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Some REMAINers may need to be put on suicide watch if the polls have turned.
That’s what happened with AV, wasn’t it; all going well (for supporters) for ages then things turned and that was that.
No had a comfortable lead by this stage in AVref and Cameron was against AV he is for Remain
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
I went to a grammar school in Battersea. Most of my teachers were WW2 veterans, I don't suppose any of them would be allowed near a classroom today (some were certainly barking), none of them taught to the exam, but all had a passion, a love and deep understanding of their subject. Even now I can remember a magical lesson when Dr. Clarke got fired up by a question form one of my fellows and gave us 45 minutes of impromptu teaching on the development of number theory - wasn't in the lesson plan or the scheme of work (not that such things existed in those days) but it changed my life - mathematics was in and medicine was out.
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
We had an ex Singapore POW teaching us Botany and Zoology (late 50’s). Thing to do was get him onto vitamin deficiency! He also had no problem (apart from worries about a possible visit from the Head) with us smoking while dissecting dogfish, which were soaked in formalin!
We'd an Old Girl as Head of Geography. It took the merest prod to get her talking about decades in Africa. It was fascinating and much more memorable than the syllabus. She was a martinet. No one dared fail an exam. She'd make anyone who forgot their atlas stand on a chair.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Reporting for duty! I've just been very busy the last few days, something called 'real life' getting in the way of posting on PB.
Very concerned to hear JackW is not well - I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
A betting thought: What is the chance of Boris becoming next PM in the event of a Remain result? Something like 'the square root of b-all' probably covers it, I think. In the event of a Leave result, he'd have a much better chance, but, even so, would by no means be a shoo-in.
So how come best odds on Boris for Next PM (3.75) are shorter than the odds on Leave (4.5)? One or both of these must be wrong, methinks. Possibly both - Boris should be longer, Leave should possibly be a bit shorter.
The odds on Boris as next PM have always been too short! A lay-the-favourite market if ever there was one.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Some REMAINers may need to be put on suicide watch if the polls have turned.
That’s what happened with AV, wasn’t it; all going well (for supporters) for ages then things turned and that was that.
No had a comfortable lead by this stage in AVref and Cameron was against AV he is for Remain
Ah, the problems of memory as one gets older! Things were always better “then”!
Mr. Betting, my history teacher saw I was reading a book about Hitler (borrowed from the library). Asked how I found it, I said it was ok, and he said it was aimed at Sixth Formers/undergraduates (I was 12 at the time). He seemed pleased, though.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Labour's voting base now is more public sector workers, the liberal middle classes and ethnic minorities, many of the wwc who will vote Leave are most likely already voting UKIP anyway.
Tory voters did not know that their party leader and most of his Cabinet would lead the Remain campaign in a constant stream of scare tactics against Leave, many Leave voting Tories will have their revenge if Remain do win narrowly by switching to UKIP!
There's been no sign of Richard Nabavi for quite some while - I wonder whether he may be sick or off on his hols. I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
Reporting for duty! I've just been very busy the last few days, something called 'real life' getting in the way of posting on PB.
Very concerned to hear JackW is not well - I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
A betting thought: What is the chance of Boris becoming next PM in the event of a Remain result? Something like 'the square root of b-all' probably covers it, I think. In the event of a Leave result, he'd have a much better chance, but, even so, would by no means be a shoo-in.
So how come best odds on Boris for Next PM (3.75) are shorter than the odds on Leave (4.5)? One or both of these must be wrong, methinks. Possibly both - Boris should be longer, Leave should possibly be a bit shorter.
I wouldn't underestimate Boris' ability to reinvent himself again should Remain win - and his Brexit stance will still help with the memberhship if he gets that far. But I suspect that whatever the EURef result, Boris won't make the final two when the leadership election comes about.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Labour's voting base now is more public sector workers, the liberal middle classes and ethnic minorities, many of the wwc who will vote Leave are most likely already voting UKIP anyway.
That is very probably true in the southern half of England but it's pretty improbable further North.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
It is plausible that 3%+ of the Con2015 voters have moved to UKIP.
'More than £670 million of EU spending was lost to fraud last year, new figures reveal.
The false claims were concentrated in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, Olaf, the EU’s anti-fraud office said, as it uncovered €888 million of rogue spending....Four in ten EU officials found to have been implicated in fraud were not punished by their employers and only a handful were dismissed, the report also finds.
Examples of fraud included €1.3 million payment to modernise a vegetable chilling plant in Bulgaria. They found the equipment supplier and the factory owner were the same Italian citizen, who had inflated the price of the supplies.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
It is plausible that 3%+ of the Con2015 voters have moved to UKIP.
It is plausible that 3%+ more could move after the referendum
I think I've mentioned before I dislike Cameron, can't remember, yesterday was another example of how he'll prostitute himself to anybody. A couple of weeks after slagging him off and encouraging pictures of bombed double deckers, he called Khan "a proud muslim". Perhaps he'll call Gerry Adams "a proud catholic" or Ed "a proud jew". Identity politics at its worst, a desperate, duplicitous PM prepared to say anything, yes anything, to meet his own ends.
He makes Blair look principled and sincere.
There is a certain rather undesirable consistency there (I'm not sure it's hypocrisy) - he clearly thinks of Khan primarily as a Muslim. Khan seems to me well balanced on it - yes, I'm various things, inter alia a Muslim, thanks for your interest. He's appropriately concerned about some aspects - isolating extremists, getting rid of glass ceilings - but he clearly doesn't wake up each morning and think "What can I do for Islam today?"
Cameron, however, seems to think either "Ooh, there's a Muslim, maybe he's an extremist", or alternatively "Ah, here's a moderate Muslim, that's great". It makes life unnecessarily difficult for people who don't see religion as the dominant force in their lives - which, I'd argue, sane people should not. I live in a multicultural area, and the whole point of it is that we just get on with each other and treat people as individuals.
I guess that's the point, he referred to Khan's religion for political reasons, a million miles from the recent tone. So what, Khan is a Muslim - who cares, I don't. I was derided on here for having a go at Cameron when he turned up in Gravesend wearing orange head gear, the man is a total fraud.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least faUnder lse recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Labour's voting base now is more public sector workers, the liberal middle classes and ethnic minorities, many of the wwc who will vote Leave are most likely already voting UKIP anyway.
That is very probably true in the southern half of England but it's pretty improbable further North.
Under FPTP it does not cost Labour anything if a few of its wwc voters shift to UKIP in Knowsley and its northern heartlands, it costs the Tories a lot more if some Leave voting Tories shift to UKIP in Tory marginal seats!
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
Agreed on both counts! I wouldn't count on as large a Tory volunteer army at the next general. At least, not for the Remainiac MPs.
All 3 of the MPs that I have helped locally are Brexiteers - for which I am truly thankful.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
OldKingCole asked earlier on this thread if anyone knew a family who had appeared on "Ask The Family." A girl in my school appeared on it and her family did quite well. Soon afterwards the father went off with a younger woman.
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least faUnder lse recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Labour's voting base now is more public sector workers, the liberal middle classes and ethnic minorities, many of the wwc who will vote Leave are most likely already voting UKIP anyway.
That is very probably true in the southern half of England but it's pretty improbable further North.
Under FPTP it does not cost Labour anything if a few of its wwc voters shift to UKIP in Knowsley and its northern heartlands, it costs the Tories a lot more if some Leave voting Tories shift to UKIP in Tory marginal seats!
I know you like to stick to your guns, however spiked they seem, but just two points:
1) There are many Northern and especially Midland seats where the WWC form a majority of the voters. 'A few' could turn into 'a few thousand'
2) The Tory/Labour marginals are mostly midland and more Northerly now - how are Labour ever going to win them back if they see their WWC backing in these seats disappear.
Sometimes electoral speculation benefits from looking at the realities on the ground, not the polls - which are frankly less and less useful anyway.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
Agreed on both counts! I wouldn't count on as large a Tory volunteer army at the next general. At least, not for the Remainiac MPs.
All 3 of the MPs that I have helped locally are Brexiteers - for which I am truly thankful.
Against a Corbyn- or Macdonnell-led Labour party, those sort of considerations will count for little. The types who would be willing to sacrifice Remainers even at the risk of letting in Labour have already defected to UKIP.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
Agreed on both counts! I wouldn't count on as large a Tory volunteer army at the next general. At least, not for the Remainiac MPs.
All 3 of the MPs that I have helped locally are Brexiteers - for which I am truly thankful.
Against a Corbyn- or Macdonnell-led Labour party, those sort of considerations will count for little. The types who would be willing to sacrifice Remainers even at the risk of letting in Labour have already defected to UKIP.
Yup, can't argue with that logic.
My fear is that this nasty Govt sponsored campaign is more stupid short termist from Osborne. What if the next election is not against Corbo...
TSE, I've got a hole in my schedule and there is an article (in two parts) I want to write about statistics in betting. Nothing revolutionary and no complicated sums, just a discussion about how the use of two common statistical concepts, whilst entirely legitimate, obscure certain facets that should be, er, not so obscure-y. I need anonymity: if I send them to you will I get it?
Agreed. Knowledge is vital, but how it is acquired is key. I was lucky enough to go to the last ILEA grammar school. We did very little in the way of rote learning and the only tests we took were internal ones at year end, our mocks and then our O and A levels. The teachers were trusted to get on with it and to teach in the way thought was best. That meant we had a few very bad ones, but most were excellent.
I went to a grammar school in Battersea. Most of my teachers were WW2 veterans, I don't suppose any of them would be allowed near a classroom today (some were certainly barking), none of them taught to the exam, but all had a passion, a love and deep understanding of their subject. Even now I can remember a magical lesson when Dr. Clarke got fired up by a question form one of my fellows and gave us 45 minutes of impromptu teaching on the development of number theory - wasn't in the lesson plan or the scheme of work (not that such things existed in those days) but it changed my life - mathematics was in and medicine was out.
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
Heh I achieved a Desmond for my sins, another in the "not quite good enough" mathematician stakes
But until the late 1980s a Desmond degree - ie a 2.2 - was the normal degree. There can surely be little doubt that the vast majority of students awared 2.2 degrees in the 1960s,70s and probably 80s would now be given a - probably quite comfortable - 2.1. Such has been the effect of grade inflation and changes in assessment methods over the years.
When a party clarifies that it is not for something that a large part of its supporters think it is for, it is a good way of driving down its support.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU." "A campaign to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least false recall.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Although ironically, Cameron is in all probability more pro-EU than Corbyn. The latter has been dragged into Remain by his backers; Cameron has needed no such help and his position has cost him support within his party.
Agreed on both counts! I wouldn't count on as large a Tory volunteer army at the next general. At least, not for the Remainiac MPs.
All 3 of the MPs that I have helped locally are Brexiteers - for which I am truly thankful.
Against a Corbyn- or Macdonnell-led Labour party, those sort of considerations will count for little. The types who would be willing to sacrifice Remainers even at the risk of letting in Labour have already defected to UKIP.
Yup, can't argue with that logic.
My fear is that this nasty Govt sponsored campaign is more stupid short termist from Osborne. What if the next election is not against Corbo...
Only 25% of Labour voters back Leave, 50%+ of Tory voters do. In EU ref at least the Tories are more at risk of driving away core supporters and losing them to UKIP under the present leadership
HYUFD - you're relying on polls with various possible flaws, not least faUnder lse recall.
Labour's voting base now is more public sector workers, the liberal middle classes and ethnic minorities, many of the wwc who will vote Leave are most likely already voting UKIP anyway.
That is very probably true in the southern half of England but it's pretty improbable further North.
Under FPTP it does not cost Labour anything if a few of its wwc voters shift to UKIP in Knowsley and its northern heartlands, it costs the Tories a lot more if some Leave voting Tories shift to UKIP in Tory marginal seats!
I know you like to stick to your guns, however spiked they seem, but just two points:
1) There are many Northern and especially Midland seats where the WWC form a majority of the voters. 'A few' could turn into 'a few thousand'
2) The Tory/Labour marginals are mostly midland and more Northerly now - how are Labour ever going to win them back if they see their WWC backing in these seats disappear.
Sometimes electoral speculation benefits from looking at the realities on the ground, not the polls - which are frankly less and less useful anyway.
1) Most of those seats are also Labour safe seats, the marginals are filled with the suburban middle classes 2) I never said Corbyn would win any new voters, just the Tories lose them. As long as Corbyn/Mcdonnell lead Labour the most likely outcome in 2020 is the Tories lose seats because of UKIP but are still largest party in a hung parliament, much like 2005 in reverse with the LDs replaced by UKIP as the party of protest (Labour lost 42 seats at that election only holding their majority due to their 2001 landslide)
I think I've mentioned before I dislike Cameron, can't remember, yesterday was another example of how he'll prostitute himself to anybody. A couple of weeks after slagging him off and encouraging pictures of bombed double deckers, he called Khan "a proud muslim". Perhaps he'll call Gerry Adams "a proud catholic" or Ed "a proud jew". Identity politics at its worst, a desperate, duplicitous PM prepared to say anything, yes anything, to meet his own ends.
He makes Blair look principled and sincere.
There is a certain rather undesirable consistency there (I'm not sure it's hypocrisy) - he clearly thinks of Khan primarily as a Muslim. Khan seems to me well balanced on it - yes, I'm various things, inter alia a Muslim, thanks for your interest. He's appropriately concerned about some aspects - isolating extremists, getting rid of glass ceilings - but he clearly doesn't wake up each morning and think "What can I do for Islam today?"
Cameron, however, seems to think either "Ooh, there's a Muslim, maybe he's an extremist", or alternatively "Ah, here's a moderate Muslim, that's great". It makes life unnecessarily difficult for people who don't see religion as the dominant force in their lives - which, I'd argue, sane people should not. I live in a multicultural area, and the whole point of it is that we just get on with each other and treat people as individuals.
I guess that's the point, he referred to Khan's religion for political reasons, a million miles from the recent tone. So what, Khan is a Muslim - who cares, I don't. I was derided on here for having a go at Cameron when he turned up in Gravesend wearing orange head gear, the man is a total fraud.
Spot on with your post earlier Mr Blackburn on Cameron,the sooner the Tories get rid the better.
I was taken in by cameron(more fool me but never voted for him at least)and on here defended him from the left/labour posters from being a salesman,a fraud or likening to reptiles.
Can I apologise to the right and left of politics that for years already knew what Cameron was,must be hard for half his MP's watching this man for the last month.
#Leave will not give us more control over our lives, you sillies, it will give it to people like Boris and Gove. That's why they want out - so they have more power themselves.
"Clinton has cancelled a day of campaigning in NJ this week and will instead return to California for 5 days ahead of the June 7 primary."
Says it all really.
I think she's lookin to kill Sanders off once and for all to get him to stop with his sabotage of the democratic party.
He is into personal glorification now.
He could well pull a Nader and run 3rd party
Bill Kristol is already planning to run an independent Republican
Bill Kristol talks too much and acts too little on this particular topic. He might endorse the Libertarian candidate as the Libertarian party will be on the ballot in all 50 states. But I simply don't see a third party run happening now beyond Sanders on a vanity trip.
"Clinton has cancelled a day of campaigning in NJ this week and will instead return to California for 5 days ahead of the June 7 primary."
Says it all really.
I think she's lookin to kill Sanders off once and for all to get him to stop with his sabotage of the democratic party.
He is into personal glorification now.
He could well pull a Nader and run 3rd party
Bill Kristol is already planning to run an independent Republican
Bill Kristol talks too much and acts too little on this particular topic. He might endorse the Libertarian candidate as the Libertarian party will be on the ballot in all 50 states. But I simply don't see a third party run happening now beyond Sanders on a vanity trip.
Kristol has a lot of influence and has been talking to Romney, I would not completely rule out a libertarian, an independent Republican and Sanders running
'Leave will not give us more control over our lives, you sillies, it will give it to people like Boris and Gove. That's why they want out - so they have more power themselves. '
But unlike the EU we can get rid of Boris & Gove,it's that silly thing called democracy.
'Leave will not give us more control over our lives, you sillies, it will give it to people like Boris and Gove. That's why they want out - so they have more power themselves. '
But unlike the EU we can get rid of Boris & Gove,it's that silly thing called democracy.
Wasn't MrsB a former lid dem councillor ? If so,by the post she posted,a poor one indeed.
Comments
And, for those worried about languagues he teaches primary children and he’s currently off on a course (in the half-term week) to refresh his Spanish so he can teach it to 7 year olds in Basildon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjprLNd9BCk
I just hope this highly respected and very longstanding PBer han't just decided to pack his bags and head off for pastures new.
No-one on here was a contestantt? Or knew a family who were?
Of course, as it happened I was never a good enough mathematician (only got a 2:1) so I became a soldier, civil servant, teacher, management trainer, old buffer instead.
"In a sign that Labour’s arguments are not cutting through to the mainstream, it revealed that a group of undecided working-class women in Liverpool mostly assumed the party was for leaving the EU."
"A campaign memo from Britain Stronger In Europe leaked to the Guardian shows that only about half of Labour voters have realised their party is in favour of staying in the EU, with the rest thinking it is split or believing it is a party of Brexit."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says
At the european elections in 2014, Clegg thought it was a good idea to ensure that all LD voters knew how europhile the party was and went ahead with the debates vs Farage..... it resulted in just 1 MEP. He ignored the previous polling that had indicated that the anti-EU LD voters were typically >40% of its vote.
Another example is Labour standing solidly for remaining in the UK in the scottish referendum and just over a year later it ended up as the 3rd party of Scotland.
Its the bedrock blue collar male worker where we have seen the decline, isn;t it?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/31/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-popularity-inexplicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster
The ONLY one that is good for Leave is this one
@britainelects: #EUref: On which will improve the UK's immigration system
Remaining: 23%
Leaving: 52%
(via ORB)
Maybe that's enough
He also had no problem (apart from worries about a possible visit from the Head) with us smoking while dissecting dogfish, which were soaked in formalin!
This is great entertainment, whatever the result.
Very concerned to hear JackW is not well - I hope he makes a speedy recovery.
A betting thought: What is the chance of Boris becoming next PM in the event of a Remain result? Something like 'the square root of b-all' probably covers it, I think. In the event of a Leave result, he'd have a much better chance, but, even so, would by no means be a shoo-in.
So how come best odds on Boris for Next PM (3.75) are shorter than the odds on Leave (4.5)? One or both of these must be wrong, methinks. Possibly both - Boris should be longer, Leave should possibly be a bit shorter.
Remaining: 30%
Leaving: 48%
(via ORB)
This was pretty good for leave also.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-why-the-economic-consensus-on-brexit-is-flawed-a7057306.html
This ain't over yet.
I have yet to meet a member of the southern WWC who is not at least considering voting Leave. And the WWC are still a considerable part of Labour's dwindling voter base.
Tory voters have known about the euro split in the party for a long time. This referendum might be the wake up call for legacy Labour voters that the party they have always votes for has been taken over by the Islingtonites.
Just watching a fascinating docu about her.
In 1963, her lawsuit stopped prayer in US public schools.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/31/big-gamble-dangerous-british-betting-shops
http://order-order.com/2016/05/31/khans-105000-a-year-aide-never-worked-outside-politics/
Tory voters did not know that their party leader and most of his Cabinet would lead the Remain campaign in a constant stream of scare tactics against Leave, many Leave voting Tories will have their revenge if Remain do win narrowly by switching to UKIP!
The false claims were concentrated in Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, Olaf, the EU’s anti-fraud office said, as it uncovered €888 million of rogue spending....Four in ten EU officials found to have been implicated in fraud were not punished by their employers and only a handful were dismissed, the report also finds.
Examples of fraud included €1.3 million payment to modernise a vegetable chilling plant in Bulgaria. They found the equipment supplier and the factory owner were the same Italian citizen, who had inflated the price of the supplies.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/eu-referendum-leave-campaign-see-significant-poll-boost-amid-imm/#update-20160531-1310
All 3 of the MPs that I have helped locally are Brexiteers - for which I am truly thankful.
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/737579796369051648
1) There are many Northern and especially Midland seats where the WWC form a majority of the voters. 'A few' could turn into 'a few thousand'
2) The Tory/Labour marginals are mostly midland and more Northerly now - how are Labour ever going to win them back if they see their WWC backing in these seats disappear.
Sometimes electoral speculation benefits from looking at the realities on the ground, not the polls - which are frankly less and less useful anyway.
My fear is that this nasty Govt sponsored campaign is more stupid short termist from Osborne. What if the next election is not against Corbo...
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
2) I never said Corbyn would win any new voters, just the Tories lose them. As long as Corbyn/Mcdonnell lead Labour the most likely outcome in 2020 is the Tories lose seats because of UKIP but are still largest party in a hung parliament, much like 2005 in reverse with the LDs replaced by UKIP as the party of protest (Labour lost 42 seats at that election only holding their majority due to their 2001 landslide)
I was taken in by cameron(more fool me but never voted for him at least)and on here defended him from the left/labour posters from being a salesman,a fraud or likening to reptiles.
Can I apologise to the right and left of politics that for years already knew what Cameron was,must be hard for half his MP's watching this man for the last month.
'Leave will not give us more control over our lives, you sillies, it will give it to people like Boris and Gove. That's why they want out - so they have more power themselves. '
But unlike the EU we can get rid of Boris & Gove,it's that silly thing called democracy.