If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
Yet, here we are. The Big Important People have told us to vote Remain. But leads of 20-25% with phone pollsters last Summer have now fallen to 10%, and leads of 10-15% with online pollsters have reached level-pegging. Maybe Remain are doing something wrong.
I do hope the polling was done by the people doing the polling in Austria :-)
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
The world's only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House!
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
Just silly.
Polls consistently show about 5-15% of Britons rate Europe as one of THE most important issues, even when there is no great kerfuffle about Europe in the news. See here:
5-15% is a LOT of people. Most of them will be Tories. I know they seem obsessive and cranky to europhiles and "sensible people" and Roger, but it's still.... a lot of people.
If these Tories shift to UKIP after the referendum, or simply abstain in protest, then the Tory party is fucked.
They will go after the referendum, sure. Just as Ukip were reaching 20 in early 2015 after the incessant betrayals of Lib Dem Dave, they will reach 20 in mid-2016, potentially staying there until a few weeks before the next general election. Then Corbyn will offer to increase people's taxes a bit, and those people will rush back to the Conservatives. Of course, eventually, this cycle will end, but probably not while Labour are led by a New Left Review rant.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
The world's only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House!
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way una lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
If Jezzas fallen through the ice Cameron's in trouble - new Labour leader :-)
But Labour members don't think that Jezza has fallen through the ice. They think he's Torvill and Dean, John Curry and Robin Couslns rolled into one.
so much like cameroons and cameron.
that ice has got a lot of work to do
Quite so .... and most shockingly of all rumours reach that the PM enjoys a single malt with ice .... it's a bloody worry !!
His distant ancestors must be turning in their graves. Although I understand the Camerons, as a clan, were not universally popular!
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
What beats me is why Leave have made such a big deal about it. We already have a very strong trading relationship with the US and they are one of a handful of nations with which we have a trade surplus. Getting a "deal" with them isn't really very important for us, it is much more important to start getting trade barriers with developing nations down and to cultivate trade relationships with the mid-sized nations and take advantage of being such a huge consumer market and having such a high level of importation.
It feels like the people running the Leave campaign are a bunch of chimps.
I suspect that they're not very knowledgeable about matters of business or economics.
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Roughly 4m people voted UKIP at the Euro elections and GE in 2015.
A lot of others have loaned the Tories a vote in the expectation that there would be a referendum, there would be some sensible reform and that Laurel and Hardy in number 10 and 11 might actually get their rear ends into gear on migration, the deficit etc.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
Just silly.
Polls consistently show about 5-15% of Britons rate Europe as one of THE most important issues, even when there is no great kerfuffle about Europe in the news. See here:
5-15% is a LOT of people. Most of them will be Tories. I know they seem obsessive and cranky to europhiles and "sensible people" and Roger, but it's still.... a lot of people.
If these Tories shift to UKIP after the referendum, or simply abstain in protest, then the Tory party is fucked.
They will go after the referendum, sure. Just as Ukip were reaching 20 in early 2015 after the incessant betrayals of Lib Dem Dave, they will reach 20 in mid-2016, potentially staying there until a few weeks before the next general election. Then Corbyn will offer to increase people's taxes a bit, and those people will rush back to the Conservatives. Of course, eventually, this cycle will end, but probably not while Labour are led by a New Left Review rant.
Lib Dem Dave is doubly offensive. To Dave the Chameleon himself, I'm sure, and to the Lib Dems. I'm not at all sure he'd be accepted as a member.Some dodgy people have been taken in, but there is a limit.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
The world's only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House!
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
Just silly.
Polls consistently show about 5-15% of Britons rate Europe as one of THE most important issues, even when there is no great kerfuffle about Europe in the news. See here:
5-15% is a LOT of people. Most of them will be Tories. I know they seem obsessive and cranky to europhiles and "sensible people" and Roger, but it's still.... a lot of people.
If these Tories shift to UKIP after the referendum, or simply abstain in protest, then the Tory party is fucked.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
The world's only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House!
An interesting question, certainly, although of course there will be plenty of parliaments, unicameral and bicameral, which are fully 'elected' but rigged or with no power to actually challenge the true authorities in reality.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
Just silly.
Polls consistently show about 5-15% of Britons rate Europe as one of THE most important issues, even when there is no great kerfuffle about Europe in the news. See here:
5-15% is a LOT of people. Most of them will be Tories. I know they seem obsessive and cranky to europhiles and "sensible people" and Roger, but it's still.... a lot of people.
If these Tories shift to UKIP after the referendum, or simply abstain in protest, then the Tory party is fucked.
Ummm: I think a lot of those people might have already voted UKIP at the last election.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
We heard similar many times in 1992 and 1993 about the Maastricht treaty.
All the then angry Conservatives had 'nowhere else to go' and the leadership would 'throw them some red meat' and they would show the world again that 'the secret weapon of the Conservative party is loyalty'.
Now what happened in 1997 ?
You'll be telling us next that all the Conservative leadership needs to do to keep its MPs obedient is to threaten them with losing the whip.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
To be sure if nobody cared, or if, as some are trying to allege, "out" is a minority interest, the PM would not be wrecking his own legacy and risking the future of the party. It should be a stroll in the park for an issue that clearly has such wide spread approval with the public...
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
It was down to her that hundreds more refugees died.
I thought you right wingers would agree: people yearn for freedom !
Most of them are from sub saharan Africa, notably Senegal, which has been free and prosperous (in relative terms) for quite a while now, it's just that prosperity has brought them TV sets to see what they are missing, and money to buy tickets and pay traffickers to try and get it.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
What beats me is why Leave have made such a big deal about it. We already have a very strong trading relationship with the US and they are one of a handful of nations with which we have a trade surplus. Getting a "deal" with them isn't really very important for us, it is much more important to start getting trade barriers with developing nations down and to cultivate trade relationships with the mid-sized nations and take advantage of being such a huge consumer market and having such a high level of importation.
It feels like the people running the Leave campaign are a bunch of chimps.
You know the Americans have an Embassy here with zillions working for them. They also have a State Department where mega zillions work. On eof them will have heard of the word "queue" before.
One of them could even have said: "I say, old chap, that's quite quaint !"
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Just googling something else and this little gem regarding labour leadership election popped up from 1976. A blast from the past there and how sunny Jim made the post.
It was down to her that hundreds more refugees died.
I thought you right wingers would agree: people yearn for freedom !
Most of them are from sub saharan Africa, notably Senegal, which has been free and prosperous (in relative terms) for quite a while now, it's just that prosperity has brought them TV sets to see what they are missing, and money to buy tickets and pay traffickers to try and get it.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
To be honest, even if that were to happen, I expect it would end up as a visa-waiver system where (like at present between the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand etc.) British passport holders could visit those countries for up to 90 days for business, or tourism, with no visa.
And we have to show our passports when leaving the UK for (or arriving from) the EU as it is anyway.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
You mix with the wrong crowd. I have not come across a single person who wants out !
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
You mix with the wrong crowd. I have not come across a single person who wants out !
I support remain, but I think in terms of gauging the general view, and the likely result, that post is pretty much spot on
It was down to her that hundreds more refugees died.
I thought you right wingers would agree: people yearn for freedom !
I'm rightwig because I want a sensible immigration control ? It's you and the left that have left the sensible controlled immigration to this country and moved to way out there.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
In all my time over there it was called a line ie: "y'all get in line" or maybe "all ya'alls get in line" I was working in the confederate rebel south (leavers) though so perhaps it's different in the unionist north. (Remainers)
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
"Upscale" is one attempt.
But they basically don't have an equivalent word. Weird.
I've always wondered what Americans say instead of "posh".
People from Massachusetts sound very posh (by American standards) to my ears.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
Not true. My books have to be combed over by American editors, to remove and change words most Americans simply don't understand - or dislike, or abhor.
"Oriental" is one. Never used in America: racist
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
Okay, it's statistical. And those editors are right, but maybe should be watched. I think the abhorrence of "whilst" is universal, but (I think) Just about all other usages occur by some Americans somewhere. I have even heard an old boy from the east refer to side walks as pavements. edit: And remember that Obama is hardly typical.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
You mix with the wrong crowd. I have not come across a single person who wants out !
It's posts like that which sum up Remain's problem in a nutshell.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
I'm guessing that Serbs will get far more out of EU membership than they will put in.
And who will pay for it? Us.
This is one of the big EU problems. There's a conveyor belt of poorer nations waiting to join, which means ever bigger contributions from the richer members: UK, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, etc.
And Merkel wants the TURKS to join. Jeezo.
I wonder if Obama would be quite so keen on the EU if the USA was facing a similar process, with Guyana and Bolivia and Honduras all seeking US statehood, knowing they will then be heavily subsidised by the mainland US taxpayer.
Of course. Turkey is a market of 80m hard working people. Practically on the door step to the Middle East. Think like your great=grandfather would have done.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
"Upscale" is one attempt.
But they basically don't have an equivalent word. Weird.
I've always wondered what Americans say instead of "posh".
People from Massachusetts sound very posh (by American standards) to my ears.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
So perhaps, given all the above, you could explain how those voters, which as you say, don't care and despise anyone working for Leave, still manage to be polling around even, or if we are generous 2-3 points to Remain. This would rather suggest that without all the celebrity ramping for Remain, the PM throwing the kitchen sink at it, and with slightly less idiotic frontmen, and equal budgets leave would be cruising to a ten point win, so perhaps it's not quite that unusual and minority a point of view after all.
Nice try though, and an interesting line in invective.
Don't think you'll find me claiming people despise anyone who works for leave.....Maybe you should read again. That said if you genuinely believe any of the names I mentioned are vote winners please enlighten me?
I do however stand by my point that desperate blinkered obsession is extremely unattractive to most voters who haven't already made their minds up.
Given the choice as a lifelong tory voter I'll stick with the proven winner Cameron rather than the disloyal Duncan Smith and his ilk. Others can do as they wish but that didn't work out to we'll previously did it?
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
"Upscale" is one attempt.
But they basically don't have an equivalent word. Weird.
Odd indeed. I'd think 'entitled' might have worked, since the sorts of posh gits shown in american dramas to contrast the more down to earth protagonists seem to be the sort of elite snobs who act all entitled to deference, even in a non-aristocratic country, and self-satisfied with their superiority despite incredible rudeness (the sorts of aloof out of touchedness we often ascribe to the posh), but 'entitled' would probably now be taken to refer to any whingy twenty something.
I wonder if Obama would be quite so keen on the EU if the USA was facing a similar process, with Guyana and Bolivia and Honduras all seeking US statehood, knowing they will then be heavily subsidised by the mainland US taxpayer.
Of course not, even what passes for the left-wing in the US wouldn't want such a thing.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
To be honest, even if that were to happen, I expect it would end up as a visa-waiver system where (like at present between the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand etc.) British passport holders could visit those countries for up to 90 days for business, or tourism, with no visa.
And we have to show our passports when leaving the UK for (or arriving from) the EU as it is anyway.
My son was married in Canada last June and we went to his wedding just with our passport. He lives in New Zealand and should get the OK to join his wife in Vancouver by mid summer. I am arranging for my wife and I to visit them in the Autumn and have been told we now need an ETA each, the same as US.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
The Remainers, the open border brigade, and the four freedoms enthusiasts are living, so to speak, at the mercy of the several thousand people that have returned to the country after spending some time with ISIS, and then deciding not to bother the with governments "voluntary" de-radicalisation program. How many terrorist incidents do you think it would take in the mainland UK before public pressure forced our borders closed to anyone without a visa, and the EU be damned ?
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
I'm guessing that Serbs will get far more out of EU membership than they will put in.
And who will pay for it? Us.
This is one of the big EU problems. There's a conveyor belt of poorer nations waiting to join, which means ever bigger contributions from the richer members: UK, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, etc.
And Merkel wants the TURKS to join. Jeezo.
I wonder if Obama would be quite so keen on the EU if the USA was facing a similar process, with Guyana and Bolivia and Honduras all seeking US statehood, knowing they will then be heavily subsidised by the mainland US taxpayer.
Think like your great=grandfather would have done.
That's a bit difficult, not all of us are sure of family that far back. One of mine may have been an alcoholic irish gypsy apparently, that's the extent of my knowledge.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
So I gather they think it’s game over. The Bremainers think they have bombed us into submission. They think that we have just seen the turning point in the referendum campaign, and that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – that they now believe the British people will file meekly to the polls in two months time and consent to stay in the EU; and thereby to the slow and insidious erosion of democracy in this country.
If that is indeed the view of the Remain campaign, they are crowing too soon. They are perhaps ignoring the resilience and thoughtfulness of many middle-of-the-roaders. One senior public servant – a man of no political party, and who had previously been on the fence – texted me after the US intervention and said he had been so outraged at President Obama’s “back of the queue” remark that he had instantly decided to vote Leave.
I do however stand by my point that desperate blinkered obsession is extremely unattractive to most voters who haven't already made their minds up.
Given the choice as a lifelong tory voter I'll stick with the proven winner Cameron rather than the disloyal Duncan Smith and his ilk. Others can do as they wish but that didn't work out to we'll previously did it?
Another Cameroon writes off a third or more of the electorate as the wrong sort of (ghastly) people. But since you say you are a Tory loyalist I guess that is what we should expect... well until an Leaver is elected leader in a few months, then leaving will be the new hotness.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
It's the bit where Hitler delusionally waves his finger, just before Burgdorf does his nervous look of feigned ignorance across to Krebs, that always makes me corpse the most.
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
The Remainers, the open border brigade, and the four freedoms enthusiasts are living, so to speak, at the mercy of the several thousand people that have returned to the country after spending some time with ISIS, and then deciding not to bother the with governments "voluntary" de-radicalisation program. How many terrorist incidents do you think it would take in the mainland UK before public pressure forced our borders closed to anyone without a visa, and the EU be damned ?
What visa checks are you thinking that our border people should do to prevent terrorism?
It's the bit where Hitler delusionally waves his finger, just before Burgdorf does his nervous look of feigned ignorance across to Krebs, that always makes me corpse the most.
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
I'm just glad I saw Downfall before all the parodies started.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
To be honest, even if that were to happen, I expect it would end up as a visa-waiver system where (like at present between the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand etc.) British passport holders could visit those countries for up to 90 days for business, or tourism, with no visa.
And we have to show our passports when leaving the UK for (or arriving from) the EU as it is anyway.
My son was married in Canada last June and we went to his wedding just with our passport. He lives in New Zealand and should get the OK to join his wife in Vancouver by mid summer. I am arranging for my wife and I to visit them in the Autumn and have been told we now need an ETA each, the same as US.
It's the bit where Hitler delusionally waves his finger, just before Burgdorf does his nervous look of feigned ignorance across to Krebs, that always makes me corpse the most.
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
I'm just glad I saw Downfall before all the parodies started.
You mean there's more to that movie than that clip? It's news to me.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
I'm guessing that Serbs will get far more out of EU membership than they will put in.
And who will pay for it? Us.
This is one of the big EU problems. There's a conveyor belt of poorer nations waiting to join, which means ever bigger contributions from the richer members: UK, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, etc.
And Merkel wants the TURKS to join. Jeezo.
I wonder if Obama would be quite so keen on the EU if the USA was facing a similar process, with Guyana and Bolivia and Honduras all seeking US statehood, knowing they will then be heavily subsidised by the mainland US taxpayer.
Of course. Turkey is a market of 80m hard working people. Practically on the door step to the Middle East. Think like your great=grandfather would have done.
My great grandfather was a fucking tin miner. He'd have regarded Johnny Turk as a natural enemy and a wog.
I'm not sure Johnny Turk was regarded as a natural enemy. Many of the men at the Dardenelles thought highly of them. However, he did have curious habits, especially with regards to women.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
Yet, here we are. The Big Important People have told us to vote Remain. But leads of 20-25% with phone pollsters last Summer have now fallen to 10%, and leads of 10-15% with online pollsters have reached level-pegging. Maybe Remain are doing something wrong.
Leave would do considerably better with a less needy message and better leadership and a more focused message. The whole campaign has been deeply unattractive since Duncan Smiths carefully choreographed resignation. Sorry
It's the bit where Hitler delusionally waves his finger, just before Burgdorf does his nervous look of feigned ignorance across to Krebs, that always makes me corpse the most.
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
The Glasgow East By-Election parody with Gordon Brown was pretty good.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
etc.
It is my experience that, apart serious differences in spellings, the only common British word that Americans never (never) use is "whilst", preferring the equivalent, and *much* older, "while". If Obama had used "whilst" I would have fallen off my chair and suspected demonic possession..
"Posh" also mystifies them. How do you get by without a word like "posh"? Nonetheless they do. Etc.
What do they substitute 'posh' with then? I'm genuinely uncertain. Snobbish, I guess?
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Don't rise to it: he feeds off reactions to his provocations, which he then cites (shamelessly) to colour Leavers in the light he wishes to paint them.
A cunning fox. But one best ignored when (obviously) doing this.
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
The Austrian presidency is essentially a ceremonial role (like in Ireland), and there is still a run off to come.
His opponent is the son of an immigrant, who thinks Austria should take more asylum seekers.
So, it'll be interesting to see the end result.
But, it is also irrelevant as e Austrian president has no power.
well it sort of is and it isn't. The most surprising thing has been the total collapse of the socialists and conservatives. They didn't even get close.
Personally I can't see how this isn't going to feed through to some extent at a GE. This is increasingly a trend across Europe where the pariah parties are slowly but surely overhauling the mainstream. The mainstream have reacted by trying to isolate the pariahs through coalitions ( see Merkel ) but this just erodes their support more - why vote CDU to put the SPD in power, they're all the same etc.
Eventually something must give - the pariahs will win an election or more likely one of the mainstream will crack and go in to coalition with them.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
The Remainers, the open border brigade, and the four freedoms enthusiasts are living, so to speak, at the mercy of the several thousand people that have returned to the country after spending some time with ISIS, and then deciding not to bother the with governments "voluntary" de-radicalisation program. How many terrorist incidents do you think it would take in the mainland UK before public pressure forced our borders closed to anyone without a visa, and the EU be damned ?
There may well be a change to freedom of movement within the EU but to arbitrarily close our borders and turn the UK into a Country under siege restricting the movement for holidaymakers and business persons is just not acceptable and if that is leaves's vision for the UK they need to state it
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
I'm guessing that Serbs will get far more out of EU membership than they will put in.
And who will pay for it? Us.
This is one of the big EU problems. There's a conveyor belt of poorer nations waiting to join, which means ever bigger contributions from the richer members: UK, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, etc.
And Merkel wants the TURKS to join. Jeezo.
I wonder if Obama would be quite so keen on the EU if the USA was facing a similar process, with Guyana and Bolivia and Honduras all seeking US statehood, knowing they will then be heavily subsidised by the mainland US taxpayer.
It will certainly cost us a pretty penny in regional aid payments etc. And I wonder why none of the Leavers (Hannan etc) have taken to the US airwaves to make that very point.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
"Obama arrived in Hanover, Germany, on Sunday to lend Merkel his backing as she faces political blowback over her stance on refugees fleeing war in Syria, a position Obama praised as a matter of moral fortitude. "She's on the right side of history on this," Obama said alongside his German counterpart Sunday, praising Merkel for confronting some "very tough politics" in opening her country's borders to nearly a million migrants last year"
1) many of those coming are not from "war torn Syria" but young men of many nationalities. 2) if Merkel is on right side of history then starting tomorrow morning I look forward to Obama tearing down the barriers between USA and Mexico allowing Mexicans to escape the drug wars.
Ain't gonna happen. The guy ponces around Europe telling everyone what's in their best interest yet does the complete opposite for his own people at home. Hypocrisy personified.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
Treason doth never prosper What's the reason? If it do prosper None dare call it treason!
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
The Remainers, the open border brigade, and the four freedoms enthusiasts are living, so to speak, at the mercy of the several thousand people that have returned to the country after spending some time with ISIS, and then deciding not to bother the with governments "voluntary" de-radicalisation program. How many terrorist incidents do you think it would take in the mainland UK before public pressure forced our borders closed to anyone without a visa, and the EU be damned ?
What visa checks are you thinking that our border people should do to prevent terrorism?
That isnt the question as well you know it. The question is what will the public force politicians to do, saying "what checks do you think we should do" is going to cut no ice whatsoever.
The fact remains, we do no background checks on even longer term residents. None at all. Since two members of my family have gone the whole way from visa to citizenship, though the full process, I can tell you that for sure. Yet when you apply for a permanent residency in almost any other country in the world, they ask for a certificate from the police in the country of origin certifying that you have no unspent convictions and are not a person of interest in any ongoing enquiries.
Peter Higgins, a former UK ports director of immigration, told the newspaper that the Government only had 'restricted control of our borders'.
Warning of the risks posed by the current procedures, he said: 'The controls for EU citizens are pretty minimal. The Border Force glance at your passport and wave you on.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
It's the bit where Hitler delusionally waves his finger, just before Burgdorf does his nervous look of feigned ignorance across to Krebs, that always makes me corpse the most.
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
The Downfall spoof in 2020 will be fun. Whoever's leading the Tories ranting and raving about the missing voters that will soon be rushing to his rescue.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
I haven't heard the Guardian being called a tabloid before but there is something new every day in this great debate. If he has said checks will be needed on French and Belgians what about the Germans and others and why only French and Belgians. I would venture to say if this was to happen visas would be needed as the French and others would retaliate with no hesitation. You wonder where all this is going
To be honest, even if that were to happen, I expect it would end up as a visa-waiver system where (like at present between the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand etc.) British passport holders could visit those countries for up to 90 days for business, or tourism, with no visa.
And we have to show our passports when leaving the UK for (or arriving from) the EU as it is anyway.
My son was married in Canada last June and we went to his wedding just with our passport. He lives in New Zealand and should get the OK to join his wife in Vancouver by mid summer. I am arranging for my wife and I to visit them in the Autumn and have been told we now need an ETA each, the same as US.
Congratulations.
Thank you. Both 49, never married, no children, but both travel extensively for work throughout the far east and have a great deal in common. My wife and I are delighted as we thought he was a confirmed bachelor. It is also much easier to visit them in Canada then the long trek to New Zealand
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
There may well be a change to freedom of movement within the EU but to arbitrarily close our borders and turn the UK into a Country under siege restricting the movement for holidaymakers and business persons is just not acceptable and if that is leaves's vision for the UK they need to state it
Who is "Leave" ? We are two political geeks sitting at our computers. I don't speak for Leave any more than you speak for Remain, so I find your line of questioning, curious.
You miss the point entirely anyway, I am talking about realpolitik, if there are a couple of bombs in London, god forbid, our borders will close, not because Cameron wants it, or you want it, or I want it, but because an enraged and fearful population will demand it. That is how fragile our "open borders" is, and yet people talk about it as if it was an eternal verity.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
That is a terrible insult to the fine people of Albania, suggesting to be like them is a horrendous thing, and I very much hope the government in (goes to wikipedia) Tirana says so, quoting their well known motto:
Ti Shqipëri, më jep nder, më jep emrin Shqipëtar You Albania, give me honour, give me the name Albanian
In all seriousness, I think my idea would be more effective - the Albanian flag flying over Buckingham Palace?
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
I'm fighting hard for Leave, and I've heard a few interesting thoughts this weekend on the trail that, on reflection, are consistent with what I've heard earlier:
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make" (2) "I just don't know" (3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels" (4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.</p>
That is an extremely astute analysis. I think you are bang on the money.
Thanks.
I've seen the latest Remain poster. You're not going to like it.
You're a Traitor. In the purest sense of the term. Traitor.
Remain have put that on the poster? Co-opting leave slogans, no doubt.
No. I was calling TSE a traitor. Just for the sake of clarity. TSE = Traitor.
That's what I genuinely think. People seem to doubt me on this. He is a TRAITOR.
Don't be confused. Don't muddy the issue. I believe every person on the right who votes REMAIN, after Obama, is a traitor. A TRAITOR.
Especially TSE. He is a TRAITOR. He betrays the country he purports to love. Which is, I believe, the definition of a TRAITOR. So he is a TRAITOR. Everything else he does, says, wonders, doodles and thinks in this little life really pales in comparison to the fact he is betraying his country, and is therefore a TRAITOR.
I hope that is clear. I will now watch Masterchef.
I was only joking, but I think your point was clear before so i don't think you need worry - I presume the Remain poster is half barack obama, half farage, with quotes about what the US would so and 'who do you trust?' or something like that.
Comments
Ooops, sneezy
https://twitter.com/sunil_p2/status/637020695478824960
Initial unofficial results show that the incumbent pro-EU populists have swept Serbia's parliamentary election, leaving pro-Russia nationalists far behind.
The apparent triumph by Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic's Progressive Party means Serbia will continue on its path toward European Union membership despite opposition from right-wing parties, which sought close ties with Russia instead.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9f04e6378a1c4dccb6982fccd87dc5cd/serbias-general-election-tests-eu-bid-amid-far-right-surge
If nobody cared, we wouldn't be having this vote.
But then neither are Cameron and Osborne.
A lot of others have loaned the Tories a vote in the expectation that there would be a referendum, there would be some sensible reform and that Laurel and Hardy in number 10 and 11 might actually get their rear ends into gear on migration, the deficit etc.
They hid behind Clegg last time.
TI wonder if they'll be laughing at Dave ?
All the then angry Conservatives had 'nowhere else to go' and the leadership would 'throw them some red meat' and they would show the world again that 'the secret weapon of the Conservative party is loyalty'.
Now what happened in 1997 ?
You'll be telling us next that all the Conservative leadership needs to do to keep its MPs obedient is to threaten them with losing the whip.
Austrian far-right party wins first round of presidential election
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/austrian-far-right-wins-first-round-presidential-election-norbert-hofer
(1) "This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make"
(2) "I just don't know"
(3) "I want to stick two fingers up to Brussels"
(4) "I'm worried"
(by the way, no-one mentioned Obama)
And it's splitting friends, families and colleagues - all over the place. Most people are really struggling with that due to no clear party labels, misinformation and conflicting gut instincts as to what the Right Thing To Do is.
Putting it altogether I think the message to the EU and HMG is "we don't like you, we don't like the direction the EU is going in, the deal was crap - the EU needs big reform, now, which we haven't got - but we are going to vote to stay (just) to keep the sword of Damocles over your head, and, coincidentally, remove any short-term economic risk, and give you one last chance.. Don't f**k it up.)
So I think to some extent the referendum result may be self-correcting: if Remain look like they are going to win big, a lot of waverers will vote Leave to ensure both Brussels and our own pro-EU establishment get the message. Floating voters do not view a heavy Remain result as in the national interest.
By contrast, if it looks very close indeed, I expect turnout of soft Remainers will be higher, and some waverers may vote Remain, to ensure the UK votes to stay in. Just. Because a majority won't vote themselves to be out of pocket, if they believe it to be a real risk.
So the final polls in the last fortnight will be crucial.
Personally, by a strange process of osmosis, I think the British people will conspire to give a relatively narrow Remain result <10% - 52/48 or 54/46 - which is what they want, for now.
But we will see.
One of them could even have said: "I say, old chap, that's quite quaint !"
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/lib/exe/fetch.php/timelines/labour_1976.png
As in what proportion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcedKDZF0E
And we have to show our passports when leaving the UK for (or arriving from) the EU as it is anyway.
People from Massachusetts sound very posh (by American standards) to my ears.
edit: And remember that Obama is hardly typical.
I do however stand by my point that desperate blinkered obsession is extremely unattractive to most voters who haven't already made their minds up.
Given the choice as a lifelong tory voter I'll stick with the proven winner Cameron rather than the disloyal Duncan Smith and his ilk. Others can do as they wish but that didn't work out to we'll previously did it?
His opponent is the son of an immigrant, who thinks Austria should take more asylum seekers.
So, it'll be interesting to see the end result.
But, it is also irrelevant as e Austrian president has no power.
So I gather they think it’s game over. The Bremainers think they have bombed us into submission. They think that we have just seen the turning point in the referendum campaign, and that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – that they now believe the British people will file meekly to the polls in two months time and consent to stay in the EU; and thereby to the slow and insidious erosion of democracy in this country.
If that is indeed the view of the Remain campaign, they are crowing too soon. They are perhaps ignoring the resilience and thoughtfulness of many middle-of-the-roaders. One senior public servant – a man of no political party, and who had previously been on the fence – texted me after the US intervention and said he had been so outraged at President Obama’s “back of the queue” remark that he had instantly decided to vote Leave.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/24/do-bremainers-really-think-voters-will-be-cowed-by-the-likes-of/
The full explosive rant, after he throws everyone else out, is never quite as good.
The whole campaign has been deeply unattractive since Duncan Smiths carefully choreographed resignation. Sorry
A cunning fox. But one best ignored when (obviously) doing this.
Right, I'm off to watch a movie with my wife.
Personally I can't see how this isn't going to feed through to some extent at a GE. This is increasingly a trend across Europe where the pariah parties are slowly but surely overhauling the mainstream. The mainstream have reacted by trying to isolate the pariahs through coalitions ( see Merkel ) but this just erodes their support more - why vote CDU to put the SPD in power, they're all the same etc.
Eventually something must give - the pariahs will win an election or more likely one of the mainstream will crack and go in to coalition with them.
And I wonder why none of the Leavers (Hannan etc) have taken to the US airwaves to make that very point.
'The "para-party" is not composed of about 30 MPs. More like 130. 30 are die-hard nutters !'
The 30 die-hard nutters that voted for Corbyn ?
"Obama arrived in Hanover, Germany, on Sunday to lend Merkel his backing as she faces political blowback over her stance on refugees fleeing war in Syria, a position Obama praised as a matter of moral fortitude.
"She's on the right side of history on this," Obama said alongside his German counterpart Sunday, praising Merkel for confronting some "very tough politics" in opening her country's borders to nearly a million migrants last year"
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/24/politics/barack-obama-angela-merkel-germany-europe/index.html
Two questions here
1) many of those coming are not from "war torn Syria" but young men of many nationalities.
2) if Merkel is on right side of history then starting tomorrow morning I look forward to Obama tearing down the barriers between USA and Mexico allowing Mexicans to escape the drug wars.
Ain't gonna happen. The guy ponces around Europe telling everyone what's in their best interest yet does the complete opposite for his own people at home. Hypocrisy personified.
What's the reason?
If it do prosper
None dare call it treason!
The fact remains, we do no background checks on even longer term residents. None at all. Since two members of my family have gone the whole way from visa to citizenship, though the full process, I can tell you that for sure. Yet when you apply for a permanent residency in almost any other country in the world, they ask for a certificate from the police in the country of origin certifying that you have no unspent convictions and are not a person of interest in any ongoing enquiries.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549327/Britain-s-border-security-tightened-safe-terrorists-warn-security-experts-EU-migrants-just-waved-checks.html For the full scale of how we do it badly, the whole article is worth reading
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/border-security-how-the-us-and-britain-compare/
https://twitter.com/StrongerIn/status/724313524793651200
You miss the point entirely anyway, I am talking about realpolitik, if there are a couple of bombs in London, god forbid, our borders will close, not because Cameron wants it, or you want it, or I want it, but because an enraged and fearful population will demand it. That is how fragile our "open borders" is, and yet people talk about it as if it was an eternal verity.
Ti Shqipëri, më jep nder, më jep emrin Shqipëtar
You Albania, give me honour, give me the name Albanian
In all seriousness, I think my idea would be more effective - the Albanian flag flying over Buckingham Palace?
Will not move a single Leave voter over to Remain.
So will it affect the undecided? No - as it is a stupid statement that makes no sense. Not credible.
Overall, a waste of a poster.
Either visa checks will be nominal (like Turkeys) and pointless except for revenue raising, or very extensive and intrusive.
USA and Australia have both had significant terrorist incidents despite visas being required.
But I am happy for it to be Leave policy, it will boost the Remain vote significantly.
But no, hitting rock bottom is when an Ulsterman calls you xenophobic
I wonder how Cameron will look in Merkel's pocket/handbag.