Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FPTP and with Jezza at the helm the choice the Britisih electorate will have is stark and patently clear.
Clearly a small majority presents problems but only if all the opposition have their ducks in place and no PM is going to act as if he's in a weak position - Cameron has learnt the lesson of John Major's stumbling administration. Cameron acts accordingly - ruthless, calculating, confident and with a genial smile and sense of ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
It occurs to me that part of Cameron's problem is that europhiles like him, and REMAIN pundits and politicians in general, simply do not understand the eurosceptic mindset.
To most europhiles (apart from the craziest Federalists, who constitute about 1% of the population) the EU is generally a goodish thing, with some slightly irritating aspects, but nothing to get too worked up about. Nice for trade. Good for roaming with your phone. Holidays in Dordogne mmm.
Thus they cannot comprehend how passionate and frustrated many sceptics feel about the issue of the EU. For 5 or even 10% of the population the awful EU is an overriding cause, more important than anything else. These people also tend to the perception that they have been betrayed on the EU for decades (they have) and that they are being betrayed again (we shall see).
This is why Cameron badly underestimated the number of rebels he'd have in his party, and even in his Cabinet.
It also means the europhiles are underestimating how angry and vengeful the sceptics will be, after REMAIN wins the vote. Sour grapes of course, the whining of losers perhaps, but it is the case. That 5% will want blood. And many of them are core Tory voters.
But you haven't explained why these 5 or 10% find the EU an overriding cause? Some people loathe the Royal Family because it's an affront to our democracy. But I don't know many who are obsessed about it
The one that was going to cost the Tories an overall majority. Oh, wait...
Well, it would have done, Mr P. To overcome this little problem, Cameron had to spend millions and millions, find a way of getting round the principles and constraints of electoral law, and bring in a foreign rottweiler to terrify everybody into voting Conservative.
It occurs to me that part of Cameron's problem is that europhiles like him, and REMAIN pundits and politicians in general, simply do not understand the eurosceptic mindset.
I find this naive. Cameron is the ultimate political insider, and always has been. A functionary of an international system. He does as he's bidden. I seriously doubt we'll ever know what he thinks about Europe or much else.
Don't be absurd. Cameron is a europhile. A soft europhile perhaps, but most definitely a europhile. He's super rich, with a very very posh wife, and lives in Notting Hill, and is best mates with Helena Bonham Carter.
Lol, he should fit in well with the Bonham Carters, a family of bankers and liberal politicians descended from H. H. Asquith, Liberal Prime Minister. Yes, a very light blue suit indeed
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FPTP and with Jezza at the helm the choice the Britisih electorate will have is stark anron acts accordingly - ruthless, calculating, confident and with a genial smile and sense of ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Seems a tad optimistic Mr W.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimism is based round Dave himself ( ooh loveley couldn't you just squeeze him ), Corbyn (leftie nutter nobody will vote for ) and Nigel Farage ( racist, loony fruitcake etc. ).
One of those politicians will have gone by then. Change either Corbyn ( lefties go back to voting leftie ) or farage ( suddely there is a choice on the right ) and the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
Post the referendum, and assuming a reasonably decisive Remain win (which is looking an increasingly safe assumption - you did get on the 60%-65% band at 9/1.....
....
My guess is that the post-Obama polls won't show the effect of the Obama intervention; they might conceivably even show a move towards Leave.......
As we saw in SINDYREF- after Osborne's "Sermon on the Pound" support for Indy increased - yet Indy was already fatally holed below the waterline as the SNP never convincingly undid the damage Osborne had done to their case. HMS Anglosphere is in a similar position.
The way I see it, the SINDYREF was a damned close-run thing which saw the pro-Union side throw away a lead of almost two to one, and left the SNP firmly in charge in Scotland.
The failure to make a convincing economic case lost the referendum.
so on that basis are you now saying Remain will lose ?
It's HMS Anglosphere which Obama has holed below the waterline.....
Lol, I was rather under the impression it was HMS Conservative Party .
Dave is really pissing off his own members. Now they will start to look for somewhere else to go.
Those on here supporting IN for no other reason than Cameron does are going to be very sheepish at some stage in the next 6 months. Even if IN wins he is fatally discredited.
Are Labour supporters really going to back a Cameron fronted campaign? I think not.
You say this regularly, do you actually have any evidence that Labour supporters are not going to vote Remain because of Cameron? If you don't then t's just wishful thinking.
1. Canvassing by two friends in a wwc area recently found a majority for out with a low turnout as well. It was mainly because of immigration and its effects on house prices, nhs and wages. 2. We also have Big John owls on here stating that a sample of his Labour members had 50% for out. 3. Labour supporters are also notoriously bad at turning out in non GE elections. 4. There are the recent surveys of voters regard for Cameron and he has sunk below Corbyn.
Olly - how about explaining what your knowledge and experience of politics comes from?
Somehow I doubt the next Tory leader will be a Europhile. The endless griping and civil wars are always down the the fact that the leader (esp Heath, Major, Dave）is not where his base is.
Or conversely they were quite near their base like Fatcha, and had their benches stuffed with people like Cameron (Health, Heseltine, Howe, Hurd, sons of the soil to a man)
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Disgruntled voters aren't obliged to make any choice. They won't bother voting.
Quite so.
Labour inclined voters may well not oblige Jezza with their favour in 2020.
A Tory victory built on so many maybes over which they have no control. Corbyn might be in place. Labour party leadership election rules might remain the same. The electorate might believe the scare stories about Corbyn and McDonnell.
Well, as for the last one, it's not working against Khan in London.
Fingers crossed eh!
The only crossed fingers are those in the Labour party hoping that the Jezzadom is a short dream and not a five year nightmare. It's not looking good.
It occurs to me that part of Cameron's problem is that europhiles like him, and REMAIN pundits and politicians in general, simply do not understand the eurosceptic mindset.
I find this naive. Cameron is the ultimate political insider, and always has been. A functionary of an international system. He does as he's bidden. I seriously doubt we'll ever know what he thinks about Europe or much else.
Don't be absurd. Cameron is a europhile. A soft europhile perhaps, but most definitely a europhile. He's super rich, with a very very posh wife, and lives in Notting Hill, and is best mates with Helena Bonham Carter.
I know people like this. They are internationalist, socially liberal, metrosexual - and europhile to the core, even if its a softcore. He was never going to advocate LEAVE, ever.
Cameron made his views clear (inadvertently perhaps) several years ago.
"David Cameron: I’ll never campaign to take us out of Europe"
If US policy included Brexit, he'd be right there on a podium passionately arguing in favour of it. I'm not disagreeing with you about his personal convictions, I'm simply saying whatever they are, he will do what he's supposed to do regardless of them.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
If US policy included Brexit, he'd be right there on a podium passionately arguing in favour of it. I'm not disagreeing with you about his personal convictions, I'm simply saying whatever they are, he will do what he's supposed to do regardless of them.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: You know what happens when politicians get into Number 10; they want to take their place on the world stage. Sir Richard Wharton: People on stages are called actors. All they are required to do is look plausible, stay sober, and say the lines they're given in the right order.
Mr W seems to have forgotten some ramblings by one of his countrymen. Something along the lines of ganging aft agley. Cameron earns full marks for politicking, but as I wrote earlier. Jezza isn't for life, he's for Christmas (and perhaps only one more of them).
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
For the next few months.
As I understand it Mr W. you are a fair weather friend of the Tories anyway, should the Tories select someone a little to the right of Mr Cameron will you be returning your vote to Mr Farron's merry men ?
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FPTP and with Jezza at the helm the choice the Britisih electorate will have is stark anron acts accordingly - ruthless, calculating, confident and with a genial smile and sense of ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Seems a tad optimistic Mr W.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimism is based round Dave himself ( ooh loveley couldn't you just squeeze him ), Corbyn (leftie nutter nobody will vote for ) and Nigel Farage ( racist, loony fruitcake etc. ).
One of those politicians will have gone by then. Change either Corbyn ( lefties go back to voting leftie ) or farage ( suddely there is a choice on the right ) and the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
Somehow, I don't think people will be saying "ooh lovely" about George Osborne.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FPTP and with Jezza at the helm the choice the Britisih electorate will have is stark anron acts accordingly - ruthless, calculating, confident and with a genial smile and sense of ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Seems a tad optimistic Mr W.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimisd the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
Somehow, I don't think people will be saying "ooh lovely" about George Osborne.
well Labour might, it would put them back in with a chance :-)
Cameron was wise to say that he would not campaign as future PM for the GE2020. He knows that people tire of politicians and in particular journalists and bloggers only keep their jobs by stirring up resentment against the government. And, of course, he recognised that although the EU Ref was approved by his Party, the swivel-eyed section would not forgive him if Brexit did not occur.
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FPTP and with Jezza at the helm the choice the Britisih electorate will have is stark anron acts accordingly - ruthless, calculating, confident and with a genial smile and sense of ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Seems a tad optimistic Mr W.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimisd the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
Somehow, I don't think people will be saying "ooh lovely" about George Osborne.
well Labour might, it would put them back in with a chance :-)
Well quite. Polling shows even Corbyn could beat Osborne, he's that voter repellent.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
For the next few months.
As I understand it Mr W. you are a fair weather friend of the Tories anyway, should the Tories select someone a little to the right of Mr Cameron will you be returning your vote to Mr Farron's merry men ?
You are mistaken.
I supported a Con/LibDem Coalition before and after the 2010 election as the best option available. Again in 2015 I would have supported a continuance. The electorate thought otherwise and treated the LibDem participation as a necessary political suicide mission.
Very harsh but the voters have no need to offer gratitude and decidedly didn't. I have never voted for the yellow peril at general elections but have in a moment of supreme weakness trembled as I voted so for an excellent local councillor. Yes, he had a beard .... but lost !! ....
I'll continue to offer critical support of the present government whilst hoping that eventually an opposition worthy of the name emerges. Not looking too promising currently.
Given there are 141 pro-Brexit MPs - it only takes a small number to be elsewhere during votes to make Cameron's position very difficult. As noted on the last thread, the boundary changes will throw up a bunch who won't have a reason to be *loyal* re the Lords or whatever either.
And associations pissed off at being misled.
Cameron has been terrible at Party management since the start - it's only been his personal electoral success/polling that's kept them onside. What do they have to lose now - given if Remain wins they've little chance of getting a job/keeping the one they have?
Fixed Term Parlies allow a lot of mischief making.
Yes. The reason the Tories have fucked up the country is only because Cameron won them a majority. Without him they would not even won a sack race.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
For the next few months.
As I understand it Mr W. you are a fair weather friend of the Tories anyway, should the Tories select someone a little to the right of Mr Cameron will you be returning your vote to Mr Farron's merry men ?
You are mistaken.
I supported a Con/LibDem Coalition before and after the 2010 election as the best option available. Again in 2015 I would have supported a continuance. The electorate thought otherwise and treated the LibDem participation as a necessary political suicide mission.
Very harsh but the voters have no need to offer gratitude and decidedly didn't. I have never voted for the yellow peril at general elections but have in a moment of supreme weakness trembled as I voted so for an excellent local councillor. Yes, he had a beard .... but lost !! ....
I'll continue to offer critical support of the present government whilst hoping that eventually an opposition worthy of the name emerges. Not looking too promising currently.
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Seems a tad optimistic Mr W.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimism is based round Dave himself ( ooh loveley couldn't you just squeeze him ), Corbyn (leftie nutter nobody will vote for ) and Nigel Farage ( racist, loony fruitcake etc. ).
One of those politicians will have gone by then. Change either Corbyn ( lefties go back to voting leftie ) or farage ( suddely there is a choice on the right ) and the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
Somehow, I don't think people will be saying "ooh lovely" about George Osborne.
Quite so ...
But they didn't say "ooh lovely Mrs Thatcher ...." either ....
Apart from some Conservatives with some rather weird sexual fantasies best left unsaid !!
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
Where do you see those seats coming from on such polling? A major problem right now is they aren't even in second place, let alone close second, in many places.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
It seems that the payback is going to consist of self-harm though? They are so angry they are going to mutilate their own party.
It's not exactly hard to find irrational anger in the Leave camp right now, is it?
It's easier to find it on the Remain campaign. One only need to log on to political betting.com and scroll for one of your frothing posts.
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
Where do you see those seats coming from on such polling? A major problem right now is they aren't even in second place, let alone close second, in many places.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way until Labour remind themselves that to exercise power they have to win elections they might just as well retreat to London and console themselves with the London mayoralty.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
Jezza's having a lovely time.
Sitting pretty, watching the Tories tear themselves to shreds whilst his party remains unified.
I'm sure he sleeps very well at night, hoping that he or his eventual replacement, might be facing the voter repelling Osborne in 3.5 years.
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
For the next few months.
As I understand it Mr W. you are a fair weather friend of the Tories anyway, should the Tories select someone a little to the right of Mr Cameron will you be returning your vote to Mr Farron's merry men ?
You are mistaken.
I supported a Con/LibDem Coalition before and after the 2010 election as the best option available. Again in 2015 I would have supported a continuance. The electorate thought otherwise and treated the LibDem participation as a necessary political suicide mission.
Very harsh but the voters have no need to offer gratitude and decidedly didn't. I have never voted for the yellow peril at general elections but have in a moment of supreme weakness trembled as I voted so for an excellent local councillor. Yes, he had a beard .... but lost !! ....
I'll continue to offer critical support of the present government whilst hoping that eventually an opposition worthy of the name emerges. Not looking too promising currently.
Not looking too promising currently.
Government, opposition or both ?
Any government troubles are as nothing compared to the Labour shambles. Better government is served by having a robust functioning opposition worthy of the name and acting as a government in waiting. What a mess.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way una lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
If Jezzas fallen through the ice Cameron's in trouble - new Labour leader :-)
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
They'd need to be up to the high teens to have a realistic chance of 15-20 gains from the Conservatives. Currently, they're on 7%.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Tory rampers need to remember that Blair didn't win, they lost
1992 Tories (Major) 14,093,007 votes, Labour (Kinnock) 11,560,484 votes 1997 Tories (Major) 9,600,943 votes, Labour (Blair) 13,518,167 votes.
Tories lost 4,492,064 votes, Labour gained 1,957,683
Tories lost 2.5m votes that didn't go to Blair. Tories lost because their supporters stayed at home.
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
Where do you see those seats coming from on such polling? A major problem right now is they aren't even in second place, let alone close second, in many places.
The South West mainly but also here and there.
I had thought that potentially one reason the SW turned even more blue was blue liberals switching from LD to Tories, but we shall see.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
I've read some rubbish on here but that really takes the biscuit.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
I've read some rubbish on here but that really takes the biscuit.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
I've read some rubbish on here but that really takes the biscuit.
If it wasn't going to make the difference, Cameron would not have pulled such a desperate stunt. He pressed ahead even after the Electoral Commision stated it was wrong because he knew he could not win the campaign without stacking the deck. Your own side, the European Commission, makes clear taxpayer money should not be used in referenda, so you can hardly blame this on Leavers.
No Brexiter can say after this week that the UK can negotiate trade deals with other countries very quickly [ except perhaps Albania ].
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
It would be very undiplomatic for the government of a friendly country to publicly contradict the British government over Brexit.
They don't have to support it though, they could say they aren't going to comment, which would also not contradict the government without offering support.
One thing I am pretty certain about now after what the Tories are doing to each other is that the Lib Dems will make a faster comeback than I had hitherto believed.
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
Where do you see those seats coming from on such polling? A major problem right now is they aren't even in second place, let alone close second, in many places.
The South West mainly but also here and there.
I had thought that potentially one reason the SW turned even more blue was blue liberals switching from LD to Tories, but we shall see.
It was worse than that. Blue Liberals went over to the Conservatives. Anti-EU Liberals went to UKIP. Left wing tactical voters went back to Labour. And very left wing Liberals switched to the Greens.
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Disgruntled voters aren't obliged to make any choice. They won't bother voting.
Quite so.
Labour inclined voters may well not oblige Jezza with their favour in 2020.
A Tory victory built on so many maybes over which they have no control. Corbyn might be in place. Labour party leadership election rules might remain the same. The electorate might believe the scare stories about Corbyn and McDonnell.
Well, as for the last one, it's not working against Khan in London.
Fingers crossed eh!
Actually, after the early mishaps, McDonnell has come across well on TV. He may not be liked by Tories [ no surprise, there ] but most people are not hot on day to day politics.
One thing about McDonnell: despite his left-wingery , he never screams or shouts and as such people will listen to him.
Many voters will not make much of cuddling up tp the IRA now that Adams and McGuiness are establishment figures themselves.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way una lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
If Jezzas fallen through the ice Cameron's in trouble - new Labour leader :-)
But Labour members don't think that Jezza has fallen through the ice. They think he's Torvill and Dean, John Curry and Robin Couslns rolled into one.
Do you think this dismal, juvenile cat-calling is going to help the Tories, and Cameron, once the referendum is over?
The LEAVERS won't forget. And they are far too numerous to be "purged". Unless by purge you mean "life-threatening amputation".
REMAIN are going to win as I have always said. But the way REMAIN have conducted the campaign, from Cameron's craven lies right down to the petulance of the most minor players - e.g. your embarrassing little emissions - means the LEAVERS will want payback.
What are LEAVE refuseniks going to do?
Jezza .. Farage .. Farron ....
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Disgruntled voters aren't obliged to make any choice. They won't bother voting.
Quite so.
Labour inclined voters may well not oblige Jezza with their favour in 2020.
A Tory victory built on so many maybes over which they have no control. Corbyn might be in place. Labour party leadership election rules might remain the same. The electorate might believe the scare stories about Corbyn and McDonnell.
Well, as for the last one, it's not working against Khan in London.
Fingers crossed eh!
Actually, after the early mishaps, McDonnell has come across well on TV. He may not be liked by Tories [ no surprise, there ] but most people are not hot on day to day politics.
One thing about McDonnell: despite his left-wingery , he never screams or shouts and as such people will listen to him.
Many voters will not make much of cuddling up tp the IRA now that Adams and McGuiness are establishment figures themselves.
Although I'd hope otherwise about the IRA issue, you might be right - superficially he looks and sounds plausible, when he is not making stupid mistakes.
No Brexiter can say after this week that the UK can negotiate trade deals with other countries very quickly [ except perhaps Albania ].
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
It would be very undiplomatic for the government of a friendly country to publicly contradict the British government over Brexit.
As the UK is a more internationalist, trade oriented, sensible place than the EU, other countries want us in the bloc because it improves the EU, even if that's at the cost of worsening the UK. That does not mean they would not want to work with us once we are outside.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Tory rampers need to remember that Blair didn't win, they lost
1992 Tories (Major) 14,093,007 votes, Labour (Kinnock) 11,560,484 votes 1997 Tories (Major) 9,600,943 votes, Labour (Blair) 13,518,167 votes.
Tories lost 4,492,064 votes, Labour gained 1,957,683
Tories lost 2.5m votes that didn't go to Blair. Tories lost because their supporters stayed at home.
This old chestnut. What actually happened was that huge numbers of Tories switched to Labour, and large numbers of previously Labour voters stayed at home. It's all there in the analysis of seats where turnout in Labour heartlands dropped through the floor.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because they only like a club where they can appoint the President and , of course, get subsidised G&T.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
You appear curiously downbeat about your country, such that you need the support and encouragement of other countries to make a step out into the big wide world. You give the impression of a toddler looking around for approval before it lets go of its mothers apron strings.
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
Well in terms of voters it just takes 10% of Tory loyalists to switch to UKIP permanently and the Tories will be denied a majority forever.
In terms of MPs, as Mr Meeks has posited, it just needs 10 MPs to block virtually all government legislation.
Cameron is acting like he has a majority of 150 and the vast support of rightwing voters, members and activists. It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way una lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
If Jezzas fallen through the ice Cameron's in trouble - new Labour leader :-)
But Labour members don't think that Jezza has fallen through the ice. They think he's Torvill and Dean, John Curry and Robin Couslns rolled into one.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
You appear curiously downbeat about your country, such that you need the support and encouragement of other countries to make a step out into the big wide world. You give the impression of a toddler looking around for approval before it lets go of its mothers apron strings.
No. I like the EU and I would like it to graduate towards an US of E. Even get Russia on board one day. Nobody has to be a permanent enemy.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Tory rampers need to remember that Blair didn't win, they lost
1992 Tories (Major) 14,093,007 votes, Labour (Kinnock) 11,560,484 votes 1997 Tories (Major) 9,600,943 votes, Labour (Blair) 13,518,167 votes.
Tories lost 4,492,064 votes, Labour gained 1,957,683
Tories lost 2.5m votes that didn't go to Blair. Tories lost because their supporters stayed at home.
This old chestnut. What actually happened was that huge numbers of Tories switched to Labour, and large numbers of previously Labour voters stayed at home. It's all there in the analysis of seats where turnout in Labour heartlands dropped through the floor.
Yes, and that multiplied in 2001 when Labour got virtually the same majority and the turnout was just 59%.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
You spend a significant time on here ramping the EU, and telling everyone that leave are boorish cultural pygmy's that you wouldn't be see dead knowing, never mind having dinner with, and that all your friends in the right-on industries are for remain, because all the bright shiney people who know best are. It clearly very important to you as well, is there some cult you should be telling us about ?
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
Spoiled for choice springs to mind .... if you have a sense of humour.
It's nuts.
In GE terms UKIP are a spent force under FP ease.
What would you have him do - Rush around shouting "Don't Panic !!"
Ridiculous complacency. Utterly reliant, for one thing, on Corbyn staying in office.
Labour is now Jezza or Jezza-lite. Either way una lucky PM.
This is not about Labour it's about the narrowness of the conservative majority.
It's about both.
Of course, but enough conservatives sitting at home or a mild shift towards Labour and we are back in hung Paliament territory. Cameron is skating on thin ice.
Jezza's fallen through the ice.
If Jezzas fallen through the ice Cameron's in trouble - new Labour leader :-)
But Labour members don't think that Jezza has fallen through the ice. They think he's Torvill and Dean, John Curry and Robin Couslns rolled into one.
so much like cameroons and cameron.
that ice has got a lot of work to do
Quite so .... and most shockingly of all rumours reach that the PM enjoys a single malt with ice .... it's a bloody worry !!
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
PR would have been a Tory-UKIP coalition, wouldn't it?
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
You appear curiously downbeat about your country, such that you need the support and encouragement of other countries to make a step out into the big wide world. You give the impression of a toddler looking around for approval before it lets go of its mothers apron strings.
No. I like the EU and I would like it to graduate towards an US of E. Even get Russia on board one day. Nobody has to be a permanent enemy.
"We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
No Brexiter can say after this week that the UK can negotiate trade deals with other countries very quickly [ except perhaps Albania ].
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
It would be very undiplomatic for the government of a friendly country to publicly contradict the British government over Brexit.
They don't have to support it though, they could say they aren't going to comment, which would also not contradict the government without offering support.
Obama really wanted to get stuck in. Even No.10 was quite surprised the length he was prepared to go.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
I haven't seen it, because the title from the main BBC page 'What is it like to interview Obama?' made it look like it would be an interviewer overcome with joy at being in the presence of the interviewee.
Like many on here I like Dominic Raab but has he really announced that following Brexit UK citizens will need visas for travel in Europe. I hadn't even thought about that. Is this leave's policy.
No. He said we may need additional checks on French and Belgian citizens to protect against the terrorism risk. When he was asked if this meant they would require visas from us, he said they may require some other sort of check. The Guardian then put the question in the headline, as they are a shoddy tabloid.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
Just like the last Blair government and with a much bigger majority. Funny old business this democracy lark.
Only just seen Huw Edwards interview with Obama. That has to be one of the most sycophantic interviews ever. What an embarrassment - UGH!
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
Don't need to when Leave are firing cannons at themselves...
No Brexiter can say after this week that the UK can negotiate trade deals with other countries very quickly [ except perhaps Albania ].
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
It would be very undiplomatic for the government of a friendly country to publicly contradict the British government over Brexit.
They don't have to support it though, they could say they aren't going to comment, which would also not contradict the government without offering support.
Obama really wanted to get stuck in. Even No.10 was quite surprised the length he was prepared to go.
when the bodybags are coming back from Libya it won't look quite so helpful
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
I would be supportive of those two things being made more democratic too, but they are not on the ballot paper this time.
No Brexiter can say after this week that the UK can negotiate trade deals with other countries very quickly [ except perhaps Albania ].
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
It would be very undiplomatic for the government of a friendly country to publicly contradict the British government over Brexit.
They don't have to support it though, they could say they aren't going to comment, which would also not contradict the government without offering support.
Obama really wanted to get stuck in. Even No.10 was quite surprised the length he was prepared to go.
Well, yes - my point was that when other countries say they back the government on this, it is reasonable to assume they mean what they say, since they could have chosen to say nothing if they disagreed but didn't want to publicly contradict our own government's stance.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
So perhaps, given all the above, you could explain how those voters, which as you say, don't care and despise anyone working for Leave, still manage to be polling around even, or if we are generous 2-3 points to Remain. This would rather suggest that without all the celebrity ramping for Remain, the PM throwing the kitchen sink at it, and with slightly less idiotic frontmen, and equal budgets leave would be cruising to a ten point win, so perhaps it's not quite that unusual and minority a point of view after all.
Nice try though, and an interesting line in invective.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
It's a very important issue to lots of Tories on here - not to the average Conservative voter.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
What beats me is why Leave have made such a big deal about it. We already have a very strong trading relationship with the US and they are one of a handful of nations with which we have a trade surplus. Getting a "deal" with them isn't really very important for us, it is much more important to start getting trade barriers with developing nations down and to cultivate trade relationships with the mid-sized nations and take advantage of being such a huge consumer market and having such a high level of importation.
It feels like the people running the Leave campaign are a bunch of chimps.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
Pfft. In 5 years, 10 at a stretch, we will be out anyway, and all this angst and damage to the party will have been for nothing. Except that we will be more integrated by the time we are eventually forced to leave, so tearing free will do more damage to the country. But I don't expect modern Tories to worry about that so long as they hang on to power for a few more years. Shrug.
If these people don't have the gumption to fight a tough referendum campaign, how can they be trusted to renegotiate Britain's new place in the world?
Especially since their excuse for losing (which they are already running) is "a big boy (Cameron) did it, and ran away"
No, if we lose this, the reason will be because Remain got twice as much funding, at the expense of the taxpayer, in direct contravention of the views of the Electoral Commission.
If you lose it will be partly because leave has run an abysmal campaign and has at no time articulated a reasonable case. It will be partly because of the voter repellent champions of the leave campaign,. Take a bow Messrs Duncan Smith, Farage and Galloway. Primarily it will be because most people find the obsession with Europe and the constant blaming of the European Union for everything wrong in the world at best mildly autistic and at worst downright weird. Neither desperately attractive. Just saying...
Yet, here we are. The Big Important People have told us to vote Remain. But leads of 20-25% with phone pollsters last Summer have now fallen to 10%, and leads of 10-15% with online pollsters have reached level-pegging. Maybe Remain are doing something wrong.
Late in the day but can anyone explain why the EU is such an important issue to so many Tories? SeanT is hinting at something akin to a cult. Not a measured political decision
Because democracy, good governance and economic opportunity are important things.
Yes. An unelected Upper House and a government elected by 37% of the people.
The world's only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House!
That Twitter account is generally quite a weathervane.
I think Obama using the word "queue" was quite telling, as others have pointed out, it's as if No. 10 wrote the lines and Obama delivered them.
Except he's used the word before apparently, so it's not telling at all, and part of Leavers making too big a deal of it. I hope the official campaign aren't planning to play up the conspiracy 'No.10 literally wrote it' angle on leafleats - it's not necessary to make the point No 10 wanted him to make the points he did.
Comments
Labour have indulged themselves in the dead end of the Jezzbollah and are happy enough presently to enjoy idelogical purity. Jezza's £3 mob smile but the broader grin belongs to the Tories. They've won the political lottery - Cameron is a lucky PM.
The central core of the Cameronite remainers optimism is based round Dave himself ( ooh loveley couldn't you just squeeze him ), Corbyn (leftie nutter nobody will vote for ) and Nigel Farage ( racist, loony fruitcake etc. ).
One of those politicians will have gone by then. Change either Corbyn ( lefties go back to voting leftie ) or farage ( suddely there is a choice on the right ) and the Tories are in trouble.
Now of course that may never happen, but it does emphasise just how much Conservative hopes are based on a few people still being in place move any of them and it's a different game.
2. We also have Big John owls on here stating that a sample of his Labour members had 50% for out.
3. Labour supporters are also notoriously bad at turning out in non GE elections.
4. There are the recent surveys of voters regard for Cameron and he has sunk below Corbyn.
Olly - how about explaining what your knowledge and experience of politics comes from?
Sir Richard Wharton: People on stages are called actors. All they are required to do is look plausible, stay sober, and say the lines they're given in the right order.
Mr W seems to have forgotten some ramblings by one of his countrymen. Something along the lines of ganging aft agley. Cameron earns full marks for politicking, but as I wrote earlier. Jezza isn't for life, he's for Christmas (and perhaps only one more of them).
There is nothing I like better than doing your research for you, but you are at the back of the queue.
I hope you are as insulted by that as I intended...
As I understand it Mr W. you are a fair weather friend of the Tories anyway, should the Tories select someone a little to the right of Mr Cameron will you be returning your vote to Mr Farron's merry men ?
Whilst Labour has Jezza the Con rebels may indulge themselves somewhat until such time as Labour come to their senses (not on the immediate horizon) or the rebels look to winning the next general election. Both interlinked.
And, of course, he recognised that although the EU Ref was approved by his Party, the swivel-eyed section would not forgive him if Brexit did not occur.
I supported a Con/LibDem Coalition before and after the 2010 election as the best option available. Again in 2015 I would have supported a continuance. The electorate thought otherwise and treated the LibDem participation as a necessary political suicide mission.
Very harsh but the voters have no need to offer gratitude and decidedly didn't. I have never voted for the yellow peril at general elections but have in a moment of supreme weakness trembled as I voted so for an excellent local councillor. Yes, he had a beard .... but lost !! ....
I'll continue to offer critical support of the present government whilst hoping that eventually an opposition worthy of the name emerges. Not looking too promising currently.
Also voting numbers in the primaries so far - 23.1 million voted in Republican primaries, 18.5 million in Democratic primaries.
Government, opposition or both ?
They could gain back 15 to 20 seats from the Tories. even if they only polled 10-12% .
But they didn't say "ooh lovely Mrs Thatcher ...." either ....
Apart from some Conservatives with some rather weird sexual fantasies best left unsaid !!
Apart from Obama's slap on the face, the Australians, the Indians have said they prefer Britain to remain within the EU.
In fact, I am not aware of any country or any major organisation supporting except the mighty commuter-friendly RMT ! Strange bedfellows.
1992 Tories (Major) 14,093,007 votes, Labour (Kinnock) 11,560,484 votes
1997 Tories (Major) 9,600,943 votes, Labour (Blair) 13,518,167 votes.
Tories lost 4,492,064 votes, Labour gained 1,957,683
Tories lost 2.5m votes that didn't go to Blair. Tories lost because their supporters stayed at home.
One thing about McDonnell: despite his left-wingery , he never screams or shouts and as such people will listen to him.
Many voters will not make much of cuddling up tp the IRA now that Adams and McGuiness are establishment figures themselves.
that ice has got a lot of work to do
Just saying...
REMAIN may well be in the lead but the elephant in the room is "turnout." I'm going to stick my neck out and say LEAVE are going to sneak over the line. They can only get better after this week and REMAIN seem to have fired all their big guns!
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/24/britons-may-need-visa-to-visit-europe-post-brexit-says-dominic-raab
"Migration crisis: Obama hails Merkel over handling of refugees"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/migration-crisis-obama-and-eu-leaders-to-discuss-naval-patrols-in-libya
Nice try though, and an interesting line in invective.
Why is why in 4 year time once all the hullabaloo has died down it really isn't going to have any impact on how 99% of people vote in GE 2020.
Of course it's a very different type of issue to gay marriage but we are seeing an almost identical reaction - people taking it personally, feeling "insulted", thinking they are being "treated with contempt" etc etc.
How many votes did gay marriage cost Con on the day at GE 2015? Almost none. If anything it might have actually gained them votes.
What we are seeing is a relatively small group of people who are very, very, very angry that they are not going to get their own way. They think "It's not fair". And it's even worse because the person doing it is someone they themselves voted for.
So like little children they are screaming very, very, very loudly because there is nothing else they can do and they feel the need to release the enormous tension which has built up inside them.
What beats me is why Leave have made such a big deal about it. We already have a very strong trading relationship with the US and they are one of a handful of nations with which we have a trade surplus. Getting a "deal" with them isn't really very important for us, it is much more important to start getting trade barriers with developing nations down and to cultivate trade relationships with the mid-sized nations and take advantage of being such a huge consumer market and having such a high level of importation.
It feels like the people running the Leave campaign are a bunch of chimps.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/724314415517032448
He's off to tell the Germans that they have this special; relationship with America.
(I haven't said that in months