Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
Apparently the Doctors have been warned that they will be struck off if something as serious as a death can be attributed to an individual doctor on strike
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
My contempt for Cameron is now entirely boundless. I hate him. I want him gone, ruined, humiliated. Forever.
If I am feeling this, as a mild eurosceptic non Tory, I wonder what some committed Tory sceptics are thinking.
I'm not a tory but I respected cameron,not any more,the man is a lying cnut.
My revenge will be after the referendum (looks like leave will lose ) his leave backbenchers who must have some bad taste from cameron tactics and the tory leadership where I pray that other cnut osborne loses.
Cameron supporters that are for LEAVE that I know are utterly bewildered by him. They feel badly let down.
It is interesting how many posters on here who were, until recently, well disposed to Cameron now want him crucified. In spite of what TSE and the few remaining loyalists might wish it really doesn't bode well for him after the referendum.
Despite being plainly a Europhile it is quite clear a large number of Eurosceptic Conservatives thought Cameron was "one of us".
Which as an outsider is completely unfathomable.
People want to think the best of their leadership. It is a natural reaction. That is why they are hit so hard and react so badly when reality strikes home. As I said up until a few weeks ago I wanted Leave to win but Cameron to be able to stay on whatever the result. Not any more.
But even during the leadership election itself he somehow convinced the eurosceptics to vote for him. I was gobsmacked at the time that he pulled it off.
He didn't fool everyone. I left the party just after he was elected and you only have to look at how the membership has dropped since then to see what effect he has had. At the time he was elected the official membership was 253,000. What is it now? Half that?
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
It would be easy for Hunt to withdraw the threat of imposition, and allow a further 6 months for negotiations. It would be cost neutral too. The only cost would be to Hunt's ego. The plans for imposition are deeply flawed in any case, with HR struggling to make sense of the contract and medical staff boycotting the meetings.
The cross party suggestion on the Sunday Times front page is a sensible way forward. I am quite impressed with Heidi Alexanders approach:
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
Many leavers may not want that. Do your really think though that at least 10 Leaver MPs won't take that view? When some are on the record already saying Cameron should face a challenge even if Remain, and that before this Obama business?
I am confident there are at least 10 Tory MPs stupid enough to follow this line. They have proved it, over and over again. What I question is how it helps their cause.
Their cause is to see Britain leave the EU - with that denied them, which they see as their overriding goal, they would presumably not care about other matters, or would see them as trivial. Fewer MPs will think that way than are Leavers, many of those will no doubt not want to entirely sabotage even a Remainer Tory government, but as you acknowledge, enough will. That seems unavoidable. Therefore, this government, which was already looking shaky, with troubled times on the horizon economically, is going to face a very rough time of things.
Interesting how many anti-TTIP postings I am seeing since yesterday. It seems Obama has rattled the cage of the left and they are using his speech as a prompt to renew opposition to the trade deal.
All the attention has focused on how the Conservative voters will split on Brexit. If a significant chunk of the left-wing can be peeled away from Remain, that could be the surprise. If I was Leave, I would hammer home on linking Obama's comments with "the Americans are after our NHS".
My contempt for Cameron is now entirely boundless. I hate him. I want him gone, ruined, humiliated. Forever.
If I am feeling this, as a mild eurosceptic non Tory, I wonder what some committed Tory sceptics are thinking.
I'm not a tory but I respected cameron,not any more,the man is a lying cnut.
My revenge will be after the referendum (looks like leave will lose ) his leave backbenchers who must have some bad taste from cameron tactics and the tory leadership where I pray that other cnut osborne loses.
Cameron supporters that are for LEAVE that I know are utterly bewildered by him. They feel badly let down.
It is interesting how many posters on here who were, until recently, well disposed to Cameron now want him crucified. In spite of what TSE and the few remaining loyalists might wish it really doesn't bode well for him after the referendum.
Despite being plainly a Europhile it is quite clear a large number of Eurosceptic Conservatives thought Cameron was "one of us".
Which as an outsider is completely unfathomable.
People want to think the best of their leadership. It is a natural reaction. That is why they are hit so hard and react so badly when reality strikes home. As I said up until a few weeks ago I wanted Leave to win but Cameron to be able to stay on whatever the result. Not any more.
But even during the leadership election itself he somehow convinced the eurosceptics to vote for him. I was gobsmacked at the time that he pulled it off.
He didn't fool everyone. I left the party just after he was elected and you only have to look at how the membership has dropped since then to see what effect he has had. At the time he was elected the official membership was 253,000. What is it now? Half that?
150K? Must fall below that after the Referendum.
Some say it could be 120k.
It fell to around 130K in 2013 and crept back up to around 150K before the election. I suspect it will be in freefall now.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I don't know many Legal quotes, but for the Euro and IndyRefs I am unavoidably forced to recall some words on political free speech I once read, just to remind myself that even the most horrid comment can contain valid points.
the exclusion of “all emotive, non-rational expression from the coverage of the principle would be a mistake”. It would “often be hard to disentangle such expression from rational discourse” because “the most opprobrious insult may form part of an otherwise serious criticism of government or of a political figure...some margin should be allowed for invective and exaggeration, even if that means some apparently worthless comments are as fully protected as a carefully balanced argument”
R (on the application of Calver) v Adjudication Panel for Wales [2012] EWHC 1172 (Admin)
It's going to be a grim, rude, tiresome few months.
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
The fury of Tory Brexiters as the scales are torn from their eyes is indeed wondrous. But not surprising. The fact is that they have been gulled. Cameron never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU. The whole referendum/renegotiation contortions were a smokescreen designed to fool the more credulous members of his party that there was a chance he might lead an "out" campaign.
But there was never any possibility that he would do this. It would be almost impossible for any PM to do so. At least 3/4 of MPs favour In. National organisations in all walks of life take the same view. Bodies representing business, finance, the city, agriculture. manufacturing, science, medicine, the universities, tourism are unanimous for In. So are the trade unions and opposition parties. There are no significant national organisations or representative bodies in favour of Out. None.
And the same is true of our allies and friends abroad. They are also unanimous for In.
Brexit is supported only by oddballs, mavericks and political opportunists who have overdosed on Daily Mail editorials. Everyone else think it's bonkers.
A brave comment on PB
There are a large number of Tories here who have been taken in by Cameron's dissembling on the EU. Surprising that so many intelligent people were fooled but there you are.
I always knew Cameron's bolleux on the EU was just that. Nonsense. He would never canvass for OUT, as he himself admitted, several times, in years past.
What HAS surprised me is the repulsive depths he will sink to, in order to win this vote. The charade of the "negotiation" and the "deal" (now seemingly forgotten, in toto) - it shows complete contempt for voters. Cameron thinks we are just stupid. Then there's the smarmy and desperate fellating of a US president, at a lectern in London, even as this same president patronisingly tells us where to shove it, in our own capital.
Odious, odious, odious.
So in essence you are saying that Cameron has been ruthlessly effective. A good quality in a leader?
I'm not sure that history will judge him effective. IMO he should not have strung his party along for all these years - it would have been braver to force them to face reality when he was first elected, just as Blair did when he forced Labour to ditch clause 4. As these boards show, he has left many of his erstwhile supporters feeling outraged, angry and betrayed. The party does not have a clear route to recovery from this.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
I like her a lot, but she had a really crap performance with Andrew Neil a few weeks ago when he asked her to name a single ally that supported Brexit.
She should have quoted Lord Palmerston instead of looking like an idiot.
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
They had the option to not strike.
Surrender is always an option, but not often a wise one. The industrial action was backed by 98% of junior doctors in the ballot last November with a 67% turnout. That is an unprecedented level of support in any UK vote.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Thanks Peter. I think the problem with tabling a motion for David Cameron to step down as Tory leader is that, if it succeeds, it will inevitably lead to calls for a new General Election, which may not appeal to many. By getting rid of Osborne, you pretty much emasculate Cameron but it does not trigger calls for an election.
Their cause is to see Britain leave the EU - with that denied them
...by their own incompetence.
So they will provide further evidence of their stupidity, just to make absolutely sure everyone knows they are stupid.
Awesome.
That you may think it stupid, that many will think it stupid, is not really relevant, is it? The point is they can and will ruin the government, and given they might have done it even if Cameron had not uttered a word (given any party's natural awkward squad) that's hard for them, but that's life.
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
They had the option to not strike.
Surrender is always an option, but not often a wise one.
Well, that depends on if you consider hanging patients out to dry "wise".
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Thanks Peter. I think the problem with tabling a motion for David Cameron to step down as Tory leader is that, if it succeeds, it will inevitably lead to calls for a new General Election, which may not appeal to many. By getting rid of Osborne, you pretty much emasculate Cameron but it does not trigger calls for an election.
Calls for a GE are routine when the PM changes in mid-parliament. There is no constitutional requirement for it though, and the matter could be complicated by the Fixed Term Parliaments Act (which should be repealed imo). The only new PM I can think of who was appointed in mid-term and went straight for a GE was Anthony Eden, in 1955.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery merely point up the weakness of the Leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they would not need to rely on invective.,
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery merely point up the weakness of the Leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they would not need to rely on invective.,
Given Osborne's rather transparent economic sophistry, surely that's the pot calling the kettle black.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery serve only to illustrate the weakness of the leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they wouldn't need to rely on invective and insults.
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
They had the option to not strike.
Surrender is always an option, but not often a wise one.
Well, that depends on if you consider hanging patients out to dry "wise".
Having rota gaps also exposes patients to risk, and will be increasingly common with the new contract.
The contract is said by Hunt to be cost neutral, so withdrawal of the threat of imposition is a cost free way of restarting talks.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Yes, one would hope that the fallout would be confined to the Party structures over the summer, and not brought into the House as a motion of confidence in the government that could somehow let Corbyn and his band of merry men into No. 10.
The party does not have a clear route to recovery from this.
Well, there is one clear route.
A convincing win for Remain, and the Brexiteers "accept the settled will of the British people" and STFU.
It won't happen, but it's technically possible.
The majority of your posts are gloating, goading or mocking Leavers, yet somehow you expect harmony and unity after the referendum?
#goodluckwiththat
Supposedly it will all be forgotten by 2020...
3020 perhaps. You only have to look at the vitriol spewing forth here to realise that. Laughing at 'Brexiteers', and accusations of treachery. The Tories are utterly screwed now.
Something to be said for Corbyn, some more council tax bands, four or five could take some pressure off poor people. A mansion tax for London certainly, but it should also apply in the provinces at a lower level. Higher taxes for above average earners too, restrictions on building up vast pension pots, something to be done about public schools. Perhaps we could have common EU law for pensions and company law and have some competition in these areas. French doctors are paid less but have better outcomes, we should outsource the NHS to French hospitals. Of couse doctors should pay for their own malpractice insurance. With the collapse in the conservative vote it all looks very possible.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
2020 will be an impossible task. Had Cameron been clever, he could have sat things out and remained a unifying figure post Referendum, around which a divided party could rally, and heals it's wounds. But he wasn't.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Yes, one would hope that the fallout would be confined to the Party structures over the summer, and not brought into the House as a motion of confidence in the government that could somehow let Corbyn and his band of merry men into No. 10.
Thanks to the fixed term parliament act, losing a vote of confidence doesn't automatically mean the fall of the the government nor a early general election.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe
Who's so obsessed with Europe they just got the POTUS to come and give us a good telling off? And published a misleading treasury report in a blaze of publicity. And spent £9 million of tax payers dosh on a mailshot about it. It's hardly low profile. If the Cameronites are so easy going and think we need to 'stop banging on about Europe' then fine - have a seat and stop banging on about it. Clearly our membership IS a huge deal for the Cameronite faction, so they don't want people to stop banging on about it, they want their opponents to stop opposing them on it. Not the same thing.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe
Who's so obsessed with Europe they just got the POTUS to come and give us a good telling off? And published a misleading treasury report in a blaze of publicity. And spent £9 million of tax payers dosh on a mailshot about it. It's hardly low profile. If the Cameronites are so easy going and think we need to 'stop banging on about Europe' then fine - have a seat and stop banging on about it. Clearly our membership IS a huge deal for the Cameronite faction, so they don't want people to stop banging on about it, they want their opponents to stop opposing them on it. Not the same thing.
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
They had the option to not strike.
Surrender is always an option, but not often a wise one.
Well, that depends on if you consider hanging patients out to dry "wise".
Having rota gaps also exposes patients to risk, and will be increasingly common with the new contract.
Potentially. The doctors are definitely risking patients lives now.
Good point on SKY paper review - 11,000 jobs at BHS at risk as administrators likely to be called in this week - where is the petition , the unions, Labour the nationalization etc or is it one rule for steel another for retail
Is the danger here for Boris that he is destroying his leadership chances?
Looking out of control - not the measured behaviour of a PM.
Starting to look as if he jumped the gun - thinking that declaring for Out and then an Out win would guarantee him becoming PM.
If Out now loses by a wide margin combined with his "performance" during the campaign it could well end his chances.
I think it's called The Burnham Effect, and we're seeing it happen.
It feels like it's been a significant week for the EU campaign. I read it as Leave losing the economic argument, pivoting to saying that the cost would be worth it for control of immigration and legal issues. Not impossible to win on those two, but much harder than before given how selfish and risk averse we can all be.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Yes, one would hope that the fallout would be confined to the Party structures over the summer, and not brought into the House as a motion of confidence in the government that could somehow let Corbyn and his band of merry men into No. 10.
Thanks to the fixed term parliament act, losing a vote of confidence doesn't automatically mean the fall of the the government nor a early general election.
Yes it's a little more nuanced than it used to be, with a two week period for the opposition to form a government before the election is called. It is however going to be very difficult for the current govt to pass very much with a wafer-thin majority in the Commons and no majority in the Lords.
The sensible playbook would be for the new Tory leader, assuming someone known and moderate such as Mrs May, to find a way of calling a general election with Corbyn very much still in place, even if that's in 2017 or 2018 rather than 2020. The time I would go would be as soon as the new boundaries can take effect.
Remember the attention given to Hillary's $230k speeches to Goldman Sachs et al? Bernie's still doing it.
Its just come out what her speech demands are in addition to the fee -
she must travel to/from the event in a private jet, preferably a Gulfstream 450 First class air tickets for her staff a personal stenographer to record her remarks verbatim Presidential suite (up to 3 rooms)
The AP has done an analysis of her paid speeches, and it shows lamentable judgment, but nothing illegal.
It's not just Wall Street banks. Most companies and groups that paid Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton to speak between 2013 and 2015 have lobbied federal agencies in recent years, and more than one-third are government contractors, an Associated Press review has found. Their interests are sprawling and would follow Clinton to the White House should she win election this fall.
The AP's review of federal records, regulatory filings and correspondence showed that almost all the 82 corporations, trade associations and other groups that paid for or sponsored Clinton's speeches have actively sought to sway the government — lobbying, bidding for contracts, commenting on federal policy and in some cases contacting State Department officials or Clinton herself during her tenure as secretary of state.
Let's not forget that Bill Clinton went round giving paid speeches all over the world while she was S of S, which coupled with all the contributions to the murky Clinton Foundation is equally troubling.
Charity Navigator will not rate the Foundation, as it doesn't function like a charity.
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery serve only to illustrate the weakness of the leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they wouldn't need to rely on invective and insults.
Your grammar is better than your political observations
Yep,I thought cameron was a Eurosceptic and a decent guy,turned out to be the biggest lying Europhile toad in history.
You got me on both counts there ;-)
He's such a Europhile, he's giving you a referendum on leaving the EU.
Honestly if you Leavers directed your energies at campaigning instead of insulting Cameron and Remainers, you might actually win the referendum.
The Europhile who's fighting for Remain and authorised HMG to spend £9million on a leaflet campaign to beat election rules? Yes, it's so obvious now you mention it.
The teetotaller who drinks like a fish, the celibate that shags everything with a pulse...
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery serve only to illustrate the weakness of the leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they wouldn't need to rely on invective and insults.
Like calling us LEAVERs "loons" and "stupid"?
I call the Leavers much worse in the morning thread
Thankyou. You're still a traitor, and if you vote REMAIN I will continue to call you this - along with all other REMAIN voters (especially the rightwingers) because in my mind it is simply a statement of the case.
But thankyou, nonetheless.
If ensuring the economic wellbeing of the country isn't risked, then I'm quite happy to be called a traitor by you.
And Philby and Maclean also thought they were acting in the name of a higher cause. Funny how you were so happy to use the TPD label when someone dared to leave your party but seemingly balk against it when you sell out your country.
1) Mark Reckless deserved it, it was the timing of it.
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
The fact that you recognise what you are is not really a saving grace.
I'm not.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
No, you're a traitor.
Here's a thought experiment.
Would Obama EVER have used that "back of the queue" line in France or Germany? Or Brazil or Mexico?
No, he wouldn't, because he cannot be sure of their fidelity and arse-licking. He did it in Britain because we are the most pathetically reliable spaniels, and, more importantly, because David Cameron asked him to.
Fuck this shit. Traitors vote REMAIN. That's all there is to it.
Accusations of treachery serve only to illustrate the weakness of the leave case. If they had strong evidence-based arguments they wouldn't need to rely on invective and insults.
Like calling us LEAVERs "loons" and "stupid"?
I call the Leavers much worse in the morning thread
Seriously thinking "should I resign from the PB Moderation team in protest".
Does anybody know, if someone happens to die next week during the doctors strike, is there any way Cameron, Osborne, Jeremy Hunt and the Dept Health can be personally sued because is their intransigence and negligence in allowing the situation to descend to this farce?
No. It is the National Union of Doctors who have chosen to jeopardise patient safety by going on strike.
When faced with contract imposition, they were left with with little option.
They had the option to not strike.
Surrender is always an option, but not often a wise one.
Well, that depends on if you consider hanging patients out to dry "wise".
Having rota gaps also exposes patients to risk, and will be increasingly common with the new contract.
Potentially. The doctors are definitely risking patients lives now.
Is it naive to assume that in the event of a real life-or-death emergency or a major alert, the striking doctors will act professionally and return to their duties?
Any deaths that can clearly be pinned on the strike will empty the bucket of goodwill that the doctors might have with the general public very quickly indeed.
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
Your grammar is better than your political observations
Yep,I thought cameron was a Eurosceptic and a decent guy,turned out to be the biggest lying Europhile toad in history.
You got me on both counts there ;-)
He's such a Europhile, he's giving you a referendum on leaving the EU.
Honestly if you Leavers directed your energies at campaigning instead of insulting Cameron and Remainers, you might actually win the referendum.
Many of us are, as you well know. It's not Leave which is slanting the playing field in its favour.
As a die-hard Tory, I hope Rees-Mogg, Redwood and the other irreconcilables make it clear to the PM that so long as he remains in office, nothing will pass the Commons.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe
Who's so obsessed with Europe they just got the POTUS to come and give us a good telling off? And published a misleading treasury report in a blaze of publicity. And spent £9 million of tax payers dosh on a mailshot about it. It's hardly low profile. If the Cameronites are so easy going and think we need to 'stop banging on about Europe' then fine - have a seat and stop banging on about it. Clearly our membership IS a huge deal for the Cameronite faction, so they don't want people to stop banging on about it, they want their opponents to stop opposing them on it. Not the same thing.
CLAPS
You would do far better to read and absorb midwinter' post. It sums up very well how floating voters such as I will react to the behaviour of Tory Euro-fanatics
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe
Who's so obsessed with Europe they just got the POTUS to come and give us a good telling off? And published a misleading treasury report in a blaze of publicity. And spent £9 million of tax payers dosh on a mailshot about it. It's hardly low profile. If the Cameronites are so easy going and think we need to 'stop banging on about Europe' then fine - have a seat and stop banging on about it. Clearly our membership IS a huge deal for the Cameronite faction, so they don't want people to stop banging on about it, they want their opponents to stop opposing them on it. Not the same thing.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe
Who's so obsessed with Europe they just got the POTUS to come and give us a good telling off? And published a misleading treasury report in a blaze of publicity. And spent £9 million of tax payers dosh on a mailshot about it. It's hardly low profile. If the Cameronites are so easy going and think we need to 'stop banging on about Europe' then fine - have a seat and stop banging on about it. Clearly our membership IS a huge deal for the Cameronite faction, so they don't want people to stop banging on about it, they want their opponents to stop opposing them on it. Not the same thing.
CLAPS
You would do far better to read and absorb midwinter' post. It sums up very well how floating voters such as I will react to the behaviour of Tory Euro-fanatics
It will be very interesting to see if you are right. Currently, Tory leavers are confident Cameron and go are doomed even if they are notnconfident leave will win.
Good point on SKY paper review - 11,000 jobs at BHS at risk as administrators likely to be called in this week - where is the petition , the unions, Labour the nationalization etc or is it one rule for steel another for retail
I guess winceyette tablecloths aren't consdered a vital national interest
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
Boris seems to have gone from hero to zero in the last couple of weeks.
He could have looked forward to a future as a senior minister, PM perhaps. Now it will be reality TV and polemical newspaper columns that no one will pay any attention to.
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
You might want to look down thread where you will see that the MoS front page bears no relation at all to what Boris actually says inside.
Barack Obama is entitled to his view......but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal........ it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something......
Both 'ridiculous & 'weird' are Boris' words to characterise Obamas's argument......
As a (good) writer he should know that his words will be used to make dramatic headlines.....
As one LEAVE official observes: 'We had no idea Boris was going to attack Obama so provocatively. It was a misjudgment. He must stop going off-piste.'
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
You might want to look down thread where you will see that the MoS front page bears no relation at all to what Boris actually says inside.
Barack Obama is entitled to his view......but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal........ it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something......
Both 'ridiculous & 'weird' are Boris' words to characterise Obamas's argument......
As a (good) writer he should know that his words will be used to make dramatic headlines.....
As one LEAVE official observes: 'We had no idea Boris was going to attack Obama so provocatively. It was a misjudgment. He must stop going off-piste.'
Mike's made the point to me, Boris in the past has done similar things in his journalism career.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
Many, if not most people will agree with you.
Ignore what's said on here - it's not representative of anything.
Of course people will say it was different but we saw a lot of very similar reaction on here re gay marriage. Cameron was "insulting" everyone, "treating them with contempt" etc etc. After a while people just gave up and moved on.
I wouldn't assume anything re what will happen post the referendum. One telling thing we have seen hinted at tonight is that even the Daily Mail and The Sun may be starting to change their tune a bit.
If it turns into a rout all the hysteria will die away - because to continue it would just look laughable. Now that may not happen but it's entirely possible.
We're probably around the "maximum hysteria point" at the moment because it's just dawning on people what the result is going to be - so people are at their most angry.
To be fair, he appears to be suggesting that the EU are like the Nazis, rather than actually supporting Nazis. Bonkers more than evil. But Leave could do without bonkers supporters - their main weakness is a distinct lack of gravitas.
The feeling that we are all in together is definitely fracturing, even on this site. Certainly if I was to see a bald headed dwarf getting a kicking by the new Londoners I would walk on by, in case it was Mr Meek being assaulted.
Slightly O/T, but does anyone know whether the HoC can table a vote of no confidence in a specific minister rather than the entire Government?
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
The censure of a minister is, I believe, via a motion to reduce his salary by £1,000. But MPs with that intention in mind should surely write to Graham Brady requesting a VoC in Cameron as Tory leader.
Yes, one would hope that the fallout would be confined to the Party structures over the summer, and not brought into the House as a motion of confidence in the government that could somehow let Corbyn and his band of merry men into No. 10.
Thanks to the fixed term parliament act, losing a vote of confidence doesn't automatically mean the fall of the the government nor a early general election.
Yes it's a little more nuanced than it used to be, with a two week period for the opposition to form a government before the election is called. It is however going to be very difficult for the current govt to pass very much with a wafer-thin majority in the Commons and no majority in the Lords.
The sensible playbook would be for the new Tory leader, assuming someone known and moderate such as Mrs May, to find a way of calling a general election with Corbyn very much still in place, even if that's in 2017 or 2018 rather than 2020. The time I would go would be as soon as the new boundaries can take effect.
The vote on that is not due until Autumn 2018 and it is far from certain that the proposed changes will be approved!
I see Boris is not familiar with the expression 'When in a hole.....'
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU. In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
You might want to look down thread where you will see that the MoS front page bears no relation at all to what Boris actually says inside.
Barack Obama is entitled to his view......but it is ridiculous to warn that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a free trade deal........ it is very weird that the US should be telling the UK to do something......
Both 'ridiculous & 'weird' are Boris' words to characterise Obamas's argument......
As a (good) writer he should know that his words will be used to make dramatic headlines.....
As one LEAVE official observes: 'We had no idea Boris was going to attack Obama so provocatively. It was a misjudgment. He must stop going off-piste.'
Mike's made the point to me, Boris in the past has done similar things in his journalism career.
Its 'Media Training 101' Never say something colourful to a journalist unless you want it used. I had a colleague have an hour long interview blown out of the water by a flippant remark to the journalist as they showed them out....
If a British referendum debate on EU membership can be electrified by a comment from the President of the United States, so much for sovereignty either way!
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
Well said. 'They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing'.......
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
We're probably around the "maximum hysteria point" at the moment because it's just dawning on people what the result is going to be - so people are at their most angry.
Remember SINDYRef, when certain posters were going to emigrate if the 'losers' stopped Scotland from becoming independent?
Funnily enough they are still in Ayrshire, tending their turnips.....
I just had a phone call from a friend thanking me for reaching out to her on Thursday. She is a HUGE Prince fan and went to his concert in Atlanta last week.
I called her Thursday on hearing the news and she was in tears.
I know talent when I see it -and he had it in spades - but I must confess I was not a big fan.
...and i'm back in the room. That was easier than I thought. They had a graph with a log x-axis with data that appeared linear, then said that the [redacted] increased with time, which is true but it's not a linear relationship and they have to point that out. Other than that, it was OK. OK, where are we?
OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.
The President just launched an Exocet at HMS Anglosphere. The betting odds correctly reflect this brazenness and its efficacy.
Thirdly, I confess to some sympathy for BoJo after his monstering by Dacre's paper. BoJo is stupid, irresponsible, and weak against bullies, but that doesn't make him necessarily bad, just unsuitable to be PM or an MP. Dacre is malevolent and powerful (two things BoJo is not) and a creature of caprice, dealing out boon or bane as the whim takes him, the Sauron of our little morality tale.
As a Conservative voter I find it incredible that members and supporters of the party have such short memories. Do they not realise why they were unelectable for thirteen years. Obsession with Europe and outdated social views are voter repellent, particularly to most under 50.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
Well said. 'They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing'.......
8*****************
I expect LEAVE to lose. But itbe will remembered, And some of us will not fotget the sneering traitors amngst us.
I voted for Cameron (Mark Harper, Forest of Dean) and will never vote Conservative again, Or Labour, Fk the lot you.
'OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.'
Plus another 9 weeks of the campaign left , plenty of time for things to go wrong for Remain.Maybe Cameron will wheel out Junker.Merkel & Hollande to put further brighteners on Brexit.
At least we now know the value of our 'special relationship' with the USA,if the UK electorate has the audacity to vote Leave then our 'friends' in the US will make sure we are at the back of the queue and treated like something you wipe off your shoe.
OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.
The President just launched an Exocet at HMS Anglosphere. The betting odds correctly reflect this brazenness and its efficacy.
Well, yes, but that may be more poetic than predictive. Until a poll comes in, we dunno.
OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.
The President just launched an Exocet at HMS Anglosphere. The betting odds correctly reflect this brazenness and its efficacy.
Dan Hannan, great proponent on the Anglosphere has been largely confining his tweets to Shakespeare since Obama's statement.....
Comments
It would be easy for Hunt to withdraw the threat of imposition, and allow a further 6 months for negotiations. It would be cost neutral too. The only cost would be to Hunt's ego. The plans for imposition are deeply flawed in any case, with HR struggling to make sense of the contract and medical staff boycotting the meetings.
The cross party suggestion on the Sunday Times front page is a sensible way forward. I am quite impressed with Heidi Alexanders approach:
https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/723983415154999297
2) I'm not balking at being accused of being a traitor, I find it amusing and interesting.
I mean there's a reason why my profile pic is of Kim Philby
So they will provide further evidence of their stupidity, just to make absolutely sure everyone knows they are stupid.
Awesome.
"How the out-of-touch media missed Donald Trump's rise"
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/how-the-out-of-touch-media-missed-donald-trumps-rise/article/2589050
My thinking here is that some of the pro-Leave MPs could decide to get back at Cameron post-referendum by tabling a motion that the House has lost confidence in George Osborne as CoE - you do not bring the whole house down but you do get rid of one of your hated figures and you could rely on opposition support.
the exclusion of “all emotive, non-rational expression from the coverage of the principle would be a mistake”. It would “often be hard to disentangle such expression from rational discourse” because “the most opprobrious insult may form part of an otherwise serious criticism of government or of a political figure...some margin should be allowed for invective and exaggeration, even if that means some apparently worthless comments are as fully protected as a carefully balanced argument”
R (on the application of Calver) v Adjudication Panel for Wales [2012] EWHC 1172 (Admin)
It's going to be a grim, rude, tiresome few months.
Good night
The fury of Tory Brexiters as the scales are torn from their eyes is indeed wondrous. But not surprising. The fact is that they have been gulled. Cameron never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU. The whole referendum/renegotiation contortions were a smokescreen designed to fool the more credulous members of his party that there was a chance he might lead an "out" campaign.
But there was never any possibility that he would do this. It would be almost impossible for any PM to do so. At least 3/4 of MPs favour In. National organisations in all walks of life take the same view. Bodies representing business, finance, the city, agriculture. manufacturing, science, medicine, the universities, tourism are unanimous for In. So are the trade unions and opposition parties. There are no significant national organisations or representative bodies in favour of Out. None.
And the same is true of our allies and friends abroad. They are also unanimous for In.
Brexit is supported only by oddballs, mavericks and political opportunists who have overdosed on Daily Mail editorials. Everyone else think it's bonkers.
A brave comment on PB
There are a large number of Tories here who have been taken in by Cameron's dissembling on the EU. Surprising that so many intelligent people were fooled but there you are.
I always knew Cameron's bolleux on the EU was just that. Nonsense. He would never canvass for OUT, as he himself admitted, several times, in years past.
What HAS surprised me is the repulsive depths he will sink to, in order to win this vote. The charade of the "negotiation" and the "deal" (now seemingly forgotten, in toto) - it shows complete contempt for voters. Cameron thinks we are just stupid. Then there's the smarmy and desperate fellating of a US president, at a lectern in London, even as this same president patronisingly tells us where to shove it, in our own capital.
Odious, odious, odious.
So in essence you are saying that Cameron has been ruthlessly effective. A good quality in a leader?
I'm not sure that history will judge him effective. IMO he should not have strung his party along for all these years - it would have been braver to force them to face reality when he was first elected, just as Blair did when he forced Labour to ditch clause 4. As these boards show, he has left many of his erstwhile supporters feeling outraged, angry and betrayed. The party does not have a clear route to recovery from this.
https://youtube.com/hvLcYUXBBuc
She should have quoted Lord Palmerston instead of looking like an idiot.
He's a Quisling Traitor Pig-Dog of Philby-esque proportions!
A convincing win for Remain, and the Brexiteers "accept the settled will of the British people" and STFU.
It won't happen, but it's technically possible.
FYI - If you are or are going to campaign for Leave, don't call Remain voters traitors to their face, do it under your breath, or when you're out of earshot of them.
#goodluckwiththat
Ukip supporting taxi driver quizzed by cops after covering his house with SWASTIKA banner calling for Brexit
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7099044/UKIP-supporting-taxi-driver-quizzed-by-police-after-he-covered-his-house-with-a-giant-SWASTIKA-banner-calling-for-Brexit.html?CMP=spklr-_-Editorial-_-TWITTER-_-SunPolitics-_-20160423-_-Politics-_-444589347-_-Imageandlink
The contract is said by Hunt to be cost neutral, so withdrawal of the threat of imposition is a cost free way of restarting talks.
Do you genuinely think a different leader to Cameron would have won a majority in 2015? Here's a clue...they wouldn't All the polling had him miles ahead of the party.. How insanely stupid are the right of the party to repeat the moronic mistakes of the late 20th century. The furore over gay marriage was embarrassing enough, however the lack of loyalty to Cameron and the insane fixation over Europe from the same people who knifed Major is utterly breathtaking. I genuinely think many of these people would be better served as members of ukip as it seems they define their entire political being through the European Union and the UKs relationship with it.
Cameron promised a referendum. We have one. Frankly the reaction of certain commentators and mps to his support for remain is similar to the hysterical shrieking of a cheated on wife after years of marriage. Initially I felt a little sympathy, now their resentment, whinging and lack of self awareness has become embarrassing and is best avoided.
Let's remind ourselves what a great success IDS was as party leader. That's about how popular the right of the party is. Not going to win many elections from there. Even against Corbyn. Time for some of the party to remember why they're in power now. And show some support to their leader whatever their differences over Europe. Without Cameron 2020 could be very tough.
Labour are watching, quietly, and waiting.
You got me on both counts there ;-)
'Disgraced Polly Peck tycoon Asil Nadir has been released from a Turkish prison just one night after he was extradited from the UK.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3555367/Disgraced-Polly-Peck-tycoon-Asil-Nadir-released-Turkish-prison-just-ONE-NIGHT-extradited-UK-stealing-millions-empire.html#ixzz46h2UBWJV
Honestly if you Leavers directed your energies at campaigning instead of insulting Cameron and Remainers, you might actually win the referendum.
It feels like it's been a significant week for the EU campaign. I read it as Leave losing the economic argument, pivoting to saying that the cost would be worth it for control of immigration and legal issues. Not impossible to win on those two, but much harder than before given how selfish and risk averse we can all be.
The sensible playbook would be for the new Tory leader, assuming someone known and moderate such as Mrs May, to find a way of calling a general election with Corbyn very much still in place, even if that's in 2017 or 2018 rather than 2020. The time I would go would be as soon as the new boundaries can take effect.
Its just come out what her speech demands are in addition to the fee -
she must travel to/from the event in a private jet, preferably a Gulfstream 450
First class air tickets for her staff
a personal stenographer to record her remarks verbatim
Presidential suite (up to 3 rooms)
The AP has done an analysis of her paid speeches, and it shows lamentable judgment, but nothing illegal.
It's not just Wall Street banks. Most companies and groups that paid Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton to speak between 2013 and 2015 have lobbied federal agencies in recent years, and more than one-third are government contractors, an Associated Press review has found. Their interests are sprawling and would follow Clinton to the White House should she win election this fall.
The AP's review of federal records, regulatory filings and correspondence showed that almost all the 82 corporations, trade associations and other groups that paid for or sponsored Clinton's speeches have actively sought to sway the government — lobbying, bidding for contracts, commenting on federal policy and in some cases contacting State Department officials or Clinton herself during her tenure as secretary of state.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ad3c483d59c9463e9a52ef4bc00351e0/firms-paid-clinton-speeches-have-us-govt-interests
Let's not forget that Bill Clinton went round giving paid speeches all over the world while she was S of S, which coupled with all the contributions to the murky Clinton Foundation is equally troubling.
Charity Navigator will not rate the Foundation, as it doesn't function like a charity.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.profile&ein=311580204#.Vxv9IzArLIU
Only today did Hillary say in an interview that she is a normal person just like you -even though she hasn't driven a car since 1996.
The teetotaller who drinks like a fish, the celibate that shags everything with a pulse...
Any deaths that can clearly be pinned on the strike will empty the bucket of goodwill that the doctors might have with the general public very quickly indeed.
Front Page Lead, MoS:
Boris Johnson has launched an astonishing attack on Barack Obama's 'ridiculous and weird' arguments for Britain to stay in the EU.
In an outspoken assault last night, the London Mayor mocked the US President's controversial claim that Anglo-US trade would be hit by Brexit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3555600/Boris-rage-ridiculous-weird-Obama-Extraordinary-statement-MoS-mocks-President-trade-threats.html
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d980e6d274c29831303fc1b07ad19bfc/tumblr_o63rx8Z8UZ1u5f06vo1_1280.jpg
As a die-hard Tory, I hope Rees-Mogg, Redwood and the other irreconcilables make it clear to the PM that so long as he remains in office, nothing will pass the Commons.
David Cameron must pay for what he has done.
He could have looked forward to a future as a senior minister, PM perhaps. Now it will be reality TV and polemical newspaper columns that no one will pay any attention to.
Both 'ridiculous & 'weird' are Boris' words to characterise Obamas's argument......
As a (good) writer he should know that his words will be used to make dramatic headlines.....
As one LEAVE official observes: 'We had no idea Boris was going to attack Obama so provocatively. It was a misjudgment. He must stop going off-piste.'
Ignore what's said on here - it's not representative of anything.
Of course people will say it was different but we saw a lot of very similar reaction on here re gay marriage. Cameron was "insulting" everyone, "treating them with contempt" etc etc. After a while people just gave up and moved on.
I wouldn't assume anything re what will happen post the referendum. One telling thing we have seen hinted at tonight is that even the Daily Mail and The Sun may be starting to change their tune a bit.
If it turns into a rout all the hysteria will die away - because to continue it would just look laughable. Now that may not happen but it's entirely possible.
We're probably around the "maximum hysteria point" at the moment because it's just dawning on people what the result is going to be - so people are at their most angry.
To be fair, he appears to be suggesting that the EU are like the Nazis, rather than actually supporting Nazis. Bonkers more than evil. But Leave could do without bonkers supporters - their main weakness is a distinct lack of gravitas.
It's now 1.38.
Well said. 'They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing'.......
Funnily enough they are still in Ayrshire, tending their turnips.....
I called her Thursday on hearing the news and she was in tears.
I know talent when I see it -and he had it in spades - but I must confess I was not a big fan.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14448343.Battle_is_on_for_the_second_vote_of_Scottish_independence_supporters/
'Having rota gaps also exposes patients to risk, and will be increasingly common with the new contract.
The contract is said by Hunt to be cost neutral, so withdrawal of the threat of imposition is a cost free way of restarting talks.'
-Average basic salary increase of 13.5 %
-Basic salary of £27,000 compared to £ 22,636 now - 19%
-Doctors receive time plus 30% for any hours worked between 5 pm - 9 pm on Saturday and 7 am 9 pm on Sunday
- Doctors working one in four Saturdays or more will receive a pay premium of 30 % for all Saturday hours
-Doctors receive time and a half for any hours worked Monday - Sunday between 9 pm - 7 am.
-Maximum number of hours worked every week by junior doctors reduced from 91 to 72
- Maximum number of consecutive nights a doctor can work cut from seven to four
- No doctor rostered two weekend in a row.
Please cut the crap about patient care,it's complete bullshit,these are just greedy bastards that don't give a s$it about their patents.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.
8*****************
I expect LEAVE to lose. But itbe will remembered, And some of us will not fotget the sneering traitors amngst us.
I voted for Cameron (Mark Harper, Forest of Dean) and will never vote Conservative again, Or Labour, Fk the lot you.
FattyB
'OK, first things first. Betting odds are an appallingly lousy predictor of the final result and this movement, although dispiriting for LEAVE, doesn't mean anything at this stage.
Secondly, we have not had a (non-voodoo) poll in post-POTUS and we have no real idea on the resultant movement in opinion. We should reserve judgement until one does, since until then we are all just sticking a finger up. So to speak.'
Plus another 9 weeks of the campaign left , plenty of time for things to go wrong for Remain.Maybe Cameron will wheel out Junker.Merkel & Hollande to put further brighteners on Brexit.
At least we now know the value of our 'special relationship' with the USA,if the UK electorate has the audacity to vote Leave then our 'friends' in the US will make sure we are at the back of the queue and treated like something you wipe off your shoe.