Mr. Pulpstar, could you explain that comparison, please.
Mr. Urquhart, outrageous behaviour. The only appropriate place to wear such a thing is on a police-approved and protected march through the centre of London, surely?
Leave's arguments aren't being routinely mocked as daft.
And Remain still haven't found an aspirational position. It's all EU bogeyman will get us. An odd position for those advocating we're meant to be friends.
I think that Remain have ramped up Project Fear way, way too early. It is already losing its impact on people and if they continue to ratchet it up Vote Leave can start putting out spoof posters "Vote Remain or a plague of frogs will descend on Britain" etc...
Even my apolitical friends are noticing the increasing histrionics from the Remain side.
For me, whenever Remain opens its mouth, it sounds like a bad parent trying to discipline an unruly child. Shrill, shouty, empty, overstated and illogical threats.
Leave is scaremongering too, but the scares are subtler.
Subtle in the sense that being whacked across the head by an iron bar is subtle?
Technically that isn't scaremongering - it's a fact about what has already happened.
That's what I mean. Leave's scare here has some sort of link, however, tenuous, with something that has already happened.
Fifty is a tiny handful, and reading through the list one is tempted so say, is that the best you can do?' but its quite powerful with some groups of voters nevertheless.
Talking about the war and deceitful Frenchies and cowardly Italians and all the other idiotic stereotypes would also be quite powerful with some voters. It doesn't mean it is a valid argument or one that Leave should pursue.
Well true, but in comparing leave's arguments with remains, I am simply arguing I think Leave's are having the more impact.
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
I think that Remain have ramped up Project Fear way, way too early. It is already losing its impact on people and if they continue to ratchet it up Vote Leave can start putting out spoof posters "Vote Remain or a plague of frogs will descend on Britain" etc...
Even my apolitical friends are noticing the increasing histrionics from the Remain side.
For me, whenever Remain opens its mouth, it sounds like a bad parent trying to discipline an unruly child. Shrill, shouty, empty, overstated and illogical threats.
Leave is scaremongering too, but the scares are subtler.
Subtle in the sense that being whacked across the head by an iron bar is subtle?
Technically that isn't scaremongering - it's a fact about what has already happened.
As a % of EU immigrants to the UK, what do those 50 criminals represent?
I bet a half decent journalist could find 50 examples of foreign criminals in Britain for reasons that have nothing to do with the EU.
I wonder how many British criminals are holed up in Spain, continuing their activities. There was, IIRC a certain Welsh cannabis trader who was quite open about it, even to the extent of writing books.
A good read his book was too ..... sadly Mr. Nice is no longer with us.
I think that Remain have ramped up Project Fear way, way too early. It is already losing its impact on people and if they continue to ratchet it up Vote Leave can start putting out spoof posters "Vote Remain or a plague of frogs will descend on Britain" etc...
Even my apolitical friends are noticing the increasing histrionics from the Remain side.
For me, whenever Remain opens its mouth, it sounds like a bad parent trying to discipline an unruly child. Shrill, shouty, empty, overstated and illogical threats.
Leave is scaremongering too, but the scares are subtler.
Subtle in the sense that being whacked across the head by an iron bar is subtle?
Technically that isn't scaremongering - it's a fact about what has already happened.
"50 foreign criminals who were let in under EU rules"
That is scaremongering. They would not have needed visas or background checks to enter the UK if we were not members of the EU.
Honestly claiming that is assuming a big number of ifs and buts. IF we had an Australian points style system, something that is complete anathema to remain for some reason, they would not have got within a thousand miles of Blighty.
Remainers seem to think its a GOOD thing that some bad eggs get in with the good. Largely, I guess, because they are pretty well off and don;t have to live alongside these miscreants.
I can get into Australia on an automatic visa. I don't need points. If I were criminally inclined I might even do that and then seek to stay.
Are you seriously saying that the murders and rapes committed by these 50 while in the UK were only committed on the less well off?
Yes it is - the proper comparison is with the number of serious crimes committed in those categories.
So for example there are about 600 murders a year in the UK. If 30 of those, for arguments' sake, were committed by EU citizens who could have been refused entry then the failure to keep them out could reasonably be argued to have had a significant effect on the murder rate.
I think that Remain have ramped up Project Fear way, way too early. It is already losing its impact on people and if they continue to ratchet it up Vote Leave can start putting out spoof posters "Vote Remain or a plague of frogs will descend on Britain" etc...
Even my apolitical friends are noticing the increasing histrionics from the Remain side.
For me, whenever Remain opens its mouth, it sounds like a bad parent trying to discipline an unruly child. Shrill, shouty, empty, overstated and illogical threats.
Leave is scaremongering too, but the scares are subtler.
Subtle in the sense that being whacked across the head by an iron bar is subtle?
Technically that isn't scaremongering - it's a fact about what has already happened.
As a % of EU immigrants to the UK, what do those 50 criminals represent?
I bet a half decent journalist could find 50 examples of foreign criminals in Britain for reasons that have nothing to do with the EU.
I wonder how many British criminals are holed up in Spain, continuing their activities. There was, IIRC a certain Welsh cannabis trader who was quite open about it, even to the extent of writing books.
A good read his book was too ..... sadly Mr. Nice is no longer with us.
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
What controls would you introduce that would prevent criminals from Europe entering the UK? Would it be background checks for all prior to coming here?
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
Not at all. I understand perfectly that, for some purposes, Leavers want to give the impression that on Brexit we wouldn't sign up to EU/EEA free movement, and for other purposes (of which the EHIC card is a perfect example), they want to give the impression that we'd retain all the benefits of EU/EEA free movement.
Just heard Nicky Morgan on the local radio,she said the job market for young people is slowing up because of the uncertainty over our membership of the EU.
Nothing to do with Government policies then,example the new government national living wage.
Would a policy for those aged over 25 adversely affect the young? If anything it makes the youngest seem relatively even cheaper.
Of course it's possible companies may look at a coming wage bill increase for established staff and have a hiring freeze as a result.
I remain convinced that the vast majority of voters are unlikely to be swayed by either side's campaign in the great referendum debate and that far too much is made in the media (naturally!) of which side has the better leader (or indeed any leader at all). Ultimately, for whatever reasons, most of us have a gut feeling as to how we intend to vote.
Betting on Hillary to beat Sanders feels a bit like cheering on Man United when the minnow was 3-0 down and is now at 3-1 10 minutes into the second half hoping to take the game to an unlikely replay.
That's not a particularly great analogy this season. You really wouldn't rule it out.
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
What controls would you introduce that would prevent criminals from Europe entering the UK? Would it be background checks for all prior to coming here?
Personally, I would require a points based visa for anyone from anywhere that planned to stay for more than six months. It works very nicely for the Canadians and the Australians.
At the VERY least we should be able to blacklist people we don't want in the country, specifically those we have thrown out. At the moment we cannot throw out an EU citizen after they get out of their 10-stretch for armed robbery, and even it we could we cant stop the coming back in again. Any nation state that is worth the name as the ability to declare foreign national "persona non grata" and have the removed from the country and blacklisted from returning, EU member states being some of the very small number of countries that cannot.
I think that Remain have ramped up Project Fear way, way too early. It is already losing its impact on people and if they continue to ratchet it up Vote Leave can start putting out spoof posters "Vote Remain or a plague of frogs will descend on Britain" etc...
Even my apolitical friends are noticing the increasing histrionics from the Remain side.
For me, whenever Remain opens its mouth, it sounds like a bad parent trying to discipline an unruly child. Shrill, shouty, empty, overstated and illogical threats.
Leave is scaremongering too, but the scares are subtler.
Subtle in the sense that being whacked across the head by an iron bar is subtle?
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring.
Seconded. There is a middle ground between not challenging each other's views and obsessive focus on minutiae. And I know that is hypocritical given were all about obsessive focus, but the balance is even more askew than usual.
I think think that sums it up. Those of us directly affected by the vote are pro Remain, and those with their head in the clouds, who have some whimsical, illogical view of how things work, or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way. But I doubt very few of these people are affected one way or t'other about how things go, so it doesn't matter much for them.
I don't need project fear to understand the impact on me personally. The run up is already costing me a grand a month on my currency transactions alone. The impact of a Brexit vote would be too stressful for me to contemplate such are my interests in Europe.
I wonder how many pro Brexit posters here would be happy to lose this kind of money and face such uncertainty in their long term financial and personal affairs, and still back Brexit.
'Even I, occasionally, worry that we'll be viewed as some kind of pariah State if we vote Leave'
Well that was true after King Henry VIII broke with Rome, but it was 100% the right decision to do so.
Unless you were one of the unfortunates who lost his/her head. This though is the problem with the Referendum. Nearly everyone really affected by the decision is pro Remain.
Those with a sentimental attachment to warm beer cricket on the village green and other notions of times gone by are for 'Leave'. Fortunately the motivation to vote is going to be much stronger among those to whom it makes a serious difference
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
Not at all. I understand perfectly that, for some purposes, Leavers want to give the impression that on Brexit we wouldn't sign up to EU/EEA free movement, and for other purposes (of which the EHIC card is a perfect example), they want to give the impression that we'd retain all the benefits of EU/EEA free movement.
That is because your other persistent meme is to treat all BrExit supporters as having the same aims which they conspicuously don't, any more than Remainers have the same reasons why they want to stay in. Some remainers want to stay in the EU because they they fans of corporatist statism, others because it safeguards their pension rights while living in Spain. Some BrExiters want to be in the EEA, some want to go it alone, both have pros and cons.
Although I will be voting Leave, I am as mad as hell at the PM for setting the appallying tone of this debate. If I was feeling charitable, I would say that he is still affected by the "Scottish Referendum." He stayed out of it because he thought Labour would do a better job in what was their own backyard. I suspect he was shocked at just how useless they were. If he was hoping Labour would step up to the plate this time, then he going to be sorely disappointed. Sir Stuart Rose is not up to the job and neither is Alan Johnson in my view. He has got no choice but to be the "front man" and is doing himself irreparable damage. The same goes for his "Remain" ministers.
I just can't see how he is going to pull this round after the vote (whatever the result).
Betting on Hillary to beat Sanders feels a bit like cheering on Man United when the minnow was 3-0 down and is now at 3-1 10 minutes into the second half hoping to take the game to an unlikely replay.
Oh, I agree that Hillary is almost certain to get the nomination: even if Sanders really overperforms in the remaining primaries, Hillary just has way too much of a headstart.
But my reason for thinking New York specifically could be close is I think people seeing Wall Street greed right in front of their eyes might make people angry and more open to Sanders' message (one of the reasons also that London has trended Labour, IMO).
If Sanders can keep his margin of defeat with blacks in NY respectable like in Michigan (rather than a complete rout like in the Deep South) then he could keep it close.
Mr. Tyson, perhaps unsurprisingly, I don't think it's fair to characterise those with a different democratic opinion to have their heads in the clouds, or to be irrational.
There are legitimate arguments on both sides (as well the hyperbolic shrieking we've also seen). Surely better to respectfully disagree than consider everyone* with a differing view to be irrational?
A person’s “previous criminal convictions do not in themselves justify” the deportation of an EU/EEA national. Deportation may only be justified where the person represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society” (section 21(5) of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006).
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
What controls would you introduce that would prevent criminals from Europe entering the UK? Would it be background checks for all prior to coming here?
Personally, I would require a points based visa for anyone from anywhere that planned to stay for more than six months. It works very nicely for the Canadians and the Australians.
At the VERY least we should be able to blacklist people we don't want in the country, specifically those we have thrown out. At the moment we cannot throw out an EU citizen after they get out of their 10-stretch for armed robbery, and even it we could we cant stop the coming back in again. Any nation state that is worth the name as the ability to declare foreign national "persona non grata" and have the removed from the country and blacklisted from returning, EU member states being some of the very small number of countries that cannot.
Unless you do background checks on everyone entering the UK you are not going to prevent criminals getting in with considerable ease.
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring. It is putting me off coming here, I won't deny it.
David, are you saying we should just let the government's fear campaign go unchallenged? It's absolutely stupid to say that backpacking or inter-railing will be more difficult in the case of Brexit, especially since inter-rail isn't anything to do with the EU and easy movement on the continent is Schengen, again something not to do with the EU.
Morgan made a foolish comment, people said it was foolish and others denied it, despite the overwhelming evidence of it being a foolish comment.
One last time.
She claimed that the youth of today feel much more European than their parents and grandparents did. They don't regard going to the EU as going abroad at all. They expect the same services, she might have mentioned medical care, she might have mentioned mobile phone tariffs, she might have had in mind Schengen and the lack of visas, whatever.
It's a point of view. I don't agree with it. I don't share it. I don't want to spend hours doing a syntactical analysis of what she said or have other people doing it on my half. She is just not that interesting, she really isn't.
Really? Many in my friendship group holiday several times a year in EU countries and they regard it as going abroad. I have never met anyone who believes that holidaying in the EU is not going abroad. I imagine you would find such people in that extreme minority of 15% < who claim that they feel European and not British.
Mr. Tyson, perhaps unsurprisingly, I don't think it's fair to characterise those with a different democratic opinion to have their heads in the clouds, or to be irrational.
There are legitimate arguments on both sides (as well the hyperbolic shrieking we've also seen). Surely better to respectfully disagree than consider everyone* with a differing view to be irrational?
And yet implying that it would be impossible to have such an agreement or situation outside of the EU is just fine and dandy and shouldn't go unchallenged.
It's part and parcel of the EU's free movement of people, objection to which is Leave's most potent argument. They can hardly complain if the Remain side take them at their word when they say they want 'control of our borders'.
Like many remainders you tend to wilful mishear the word "control" as "close", I believe this is a difference.
What controls would you introduce that would prevent criminals from Europe entering the UK? Would it be background checks for all prior to coming here?
Personally, I would require a points based visa for anyone from anywhere that planned to stay for more than six months. It works very nicely for the Canadians and the Australians.
At the VERY least we should be able to blacklist people we don't want in the country, specifically those we have thrown out. At the moment we cannot throw out an EU citizen after they get out of their 10-stretch for armed robbery, and even it we could we cant stop the coming back in again. Any nation state that is worth the name as the ability to declare foreign national "persona non grata" and have the removed from the country and blacklisted from returning, EU member states being some of the very small number of countries that cannot.
Unless you do background checks on everyone entering the UK you are not going to prevent criminals getting in with considerable ease.
You have to show a passport to enter the UK, a primary form of ID, all EU states hold criminal records on government databases, how hard can it be to see if the person showing the passport has a record and if so, reject their entry.
Mr Erdogan is now asking Germany to stop broadcasting a programme that is critical of him. Merkel sticking her head in the sand and hoping the problem goes away.
You have to show a passport to enter the UK, a primary form of ID, all EU states hold criminal records on government databases, how hard can it be to see if the person showing the passport has a record and if so, reject their entry.
Passports are checked against Interpol systems, but AFAIK they are looking for active warrants, not crimes for which people have already "been rehabilitated"
I think think that sums it up. Those of us directly affected by the vote are pro Remain, and those with their head in the clouds, who have some whimsical, illogical view of how things work, or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way. But I doubt very few of these people are affected one way or t'other about how things go, so it doesn't matter much for them.
I don't need project fear to understand the impact on me personally. The run up is already costing me a grand a month on my currency transactions alone. The impact of a Brexit vote would be too stressful for me to contemplate such are my interests in Europe.
I wonder how many pro Brexit posters here would be happy to lose this kind of money and face such uncertainty in their long term financial and personal affairs, and still back Brexit.
'Even I, occasionally, worry that we'll be viewed as some kind of pariah State if we vote Leave'
Well that was true after King Henry VIII broke with Rome, but it was 100% the right decision to do so.
Unless you were one of the unfortunates who lost his/her head. This though is the problem with the Referendum. Nearly everyone really affected by the decision is pro Remain.
Those with a sentimental attachment to warm beer cricket on the village green and other notions of times gone by are for 'Leave'. Fortunately the motivation to vote is going to be much stronger among those to whom it makes a serious difference
I am not sure I agree with that. If you are a tradesman being undercut by eastern European tradesmen you are directly affected and you may well be inclined to vote to Leave.
What I'd say is that the higher up the wages scale you go, the less the outcome will materially affect you whatever happens.
Theresa is rather quiet. Smart move:back REMAIN but do nothing for the cause. If Cameron falls as a result of all of this she will be in a strong position. Just like 1990, it will be a process of elimination. Hurd too posh, Heseltine too disloyal. Osborne too toxic, Boris not trusted.
You have to show a passport to enter the UK, a primary form of ID, all EU states hold criminal records on government databases, how hard can it be to see if the person showing the passport has a record and if so, reject their entry.
Passports are checked against Interpol systems, but AFAIK they are looking for active warrants, not crimes for which people have already "been rehabilitated"
So it would be easy to add to this list from criminal records if Britain wanted to?
Kasich has the highest unfavourables with republicans, higher than even Trump. He is more favourable with democrats than republicans, which is natural but it's not a way to stop a party from splitting.
The reason why the GOP is doomed is very simple they have been a failure at governing since the early 90's and are stuck with the stench of corruption and incompetence. Paul Ryan's major speech last week was a prime example, he talked about Reagan and a bill passed by Jack Kemp 37 years ago as it's main feature, talking about being stuck in the past.
Hence they will lose badly, democrat voters are dissatisfied with their party but are content, republican voters absolutely hate their party and everyone and everything it stands for.
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring. It is putting me off coming here, I won't deny it.
David, are you saying we should just let the government's fear campaign go unchallenged? It's absolutely stupid to say that backpacking or inter-railing will be more difficult in the case of Brexit, especially since inter-rail isn't anything to do with the EU and easy movement on the continent is Schengen, again something not to do with the EU.
Morgan made a foolish comment, people said it was foolish and others denied it, despite the overwhelming evidence of it being a foolish comment.
One last time.
She claimed that the youth of today feel much more European than their parents and grandparents did. They don't regard going to the EU as going abroad at all. They expect the same services, she might have mentioned medical care, she might have mentioned mobile phone tariffs, she might have had in mind Schengen and the lack of visas, whatever.
It's a point of view. I don't agree with it. I don't share it. I don't want to spend hours doing a syntactical analysis of what she said or have other people doing it on my half. She is just not that interesting, she really isn't.
Really? Many in my friendship group holiday several times a year in EU countries and they regard it as going abroad. I have never met anyone who believes that holidaying in the EU is not going abroad. I imagine you would find such people in that extreme minority of 15% < who claim that they feel European and not British.
Surely this is a wind up? Is there some part of "I don't agree" that you are struggling with?
One thing that is clear, is that a lot of bollox is being spouted by both sides. I'm mildly in the out camp, due to the fact that I think the EU is unsustainable in its present direction, but absolutely could be persuaded by a coherent argument to stay in. Smug lefties telling me that only the smart, forward thinking, clever, beautiful people are for Remain isn't going to bring me into their fold.
I sometimes wonder if Boris regrets not going for a third term as Mayor.
I'm in favour of term limits for the highest offices, and I think 2 terms are enough for any person. I think that opinion is shared by enough people to have cost Boris a third term even if he ran.
"Mr. Trump is also coming under fire from outside groups. The anti-tax Club for Growth, which endorsed Mr. Cruz in the last few days, will begin a $1 million advertising expenditure in Wisconsin.
The spot calls on people to vote for Mr. Cruz to stop Mr. Trump, saying that Mr. Kasich “can’t do it.” And the group Our Principles PAC, which was founded to stop Mr. Trump in January, will begin reserving airtime, according to its strategist. "
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring. It is putting me off coming here, I won't deny it.
David, are you saying we should just let the government's fear campaign go unchallenged? It's absolutely stupid to say that backpacking or inter-railing will be more difficult in the case of Brexit, especially since inter-rail isn't anything to do with the EU and easy movement on the continent is Schengen, again something not to do with the EU.
Morgan made a foolish comment, people said it was foolish and others denied it, despite the overwhelming evidence of it being a foolish comment.
One last time.
She claimed that the youth of today feel much more European than their parents and grandparents did. They don't regard going to the EU as going abroad at all. They expect the same services, she might have mentioned medical care, she might have mentioned mobile phone tariffs, she might have had in mind Schengen and the lack of visas, whatever.
It's a point of view. I don't agree with it. I don't share it. I don't want to spend hours doing a syntactical analysis of what she said or have other people doing it on my half. She is just not that interesting, she really isn't.
Really? Many in my friendship group holiday several times a year in EU countries and they regard it as going abroad. I have never met anyone who believes that holidaying in the EU is not going abroad. I imagine you would find such people in that extreme minority of 15% < who claim that they feel European and not British.
Surely this is a wind up? Is there some part of "I don't agree" that you are struggling with?
Edit. Apologies. Excessively grumpy response.
It was with reference to Morgan's comments which you summarised.
Mr observer,or you see your Quality of life suffer in the area you live because of unskilled poor immigration,like schools overcrowded,heathcentres/hospitals full,housing shortage with immigration - I could go on.
That's why I'm voting leave,I can't afford someone living in Italy saying everything is wonderful on the remain side when this person couldn't give a sh*t about people like me and my family,just look at his post,it's me,me,me.
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring. It is putting me off coming here, I won't deny it.
David, are you saying we should just let the government's fear campaign go unchallenged? It's absolutely stupid to say that backpacking or inter-railing will be more difficult in the case of Brexit, especially since inter-rail isn't anything to do with the EU and easy movement on the continent is Schengen, again something not to do with the EU.
Morgan made a foolish comment, people said it was foolish and others denied it, despite the overwhelming evidence of it being a foolish comment.
One last time.
She claimed that the youth of today feel much more European than their parents and grandparents did. They don't regard going to the EU as going abroad at all. They expect the same services, she might have mentioned medical care, she might have mentioned mobile phone tariffs, she might have had in mind Schengen and the lack of visas, whatever.
It's a point of view. I don't agree with it. I don't share it. I don't want to spend hours doing a syntactical analysis of what she said or have other people doing it on my half. She is just not that interesting, she really isn't.
Really? Many in my friendship group holiday several times a year in EU countries and they regard it as going abroad. I have never met anyone who believes that holidaying in the EU is not going abroad. I imagine you would find such people in that extreme minority of 15% < who claim that they feel European and not British.
Surely this is a wind up? Is there some part of "I don't agree" that you are struggling with?
Edit. Apologies. Excessively grumpy response.
It was with reference to Morgan's comments which you summarised.
I think think that sums it up. Those of us directly affected by the vote are pro Remain, and those with their head in the clouds, who have some whimsical, illogical view of how things work, or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way. But I doubt very few of these people are affected one way or t'other about how things go, so it doesn't matter much for them.
I don't need project fear to understand the impact on me personally. The run up is already costing me a grand a month on my currency transactions alone. The impact of a Brexit vote would be too stressful for me to contemplate such are my interests in Europe.
I wonder how many pro Brexit posters here would be happy to lose this kind of money and face such uncertainty in their long term financial and personal affairs, and still back Brexit.
'Even I, occasionally, worry that we'll be viewed as some kind of pariah State if we vote Leave'
Well that was true after King Henry VIII broke with Rome, but it was 100% the right decision to do so.
Unless you were one of the unfortunates who lost his/her head. This though is the problem with the Referendum. Nearly everyone really affected by the decision is pro Remain.
Those with a sentimental attachment to warm beer cricket on the village green and other notions of times gone by are for 'Leave'. Fortunately the motivation to vote is going to be much stronger among those to whom it makes a serious difference
Nearly everyone really affected by the decision is pro Remain.
I wouldn't agree with that assumption. I am against remain, for Leave. I travel, do EU business, employ etc.
One of the reasons I think Leave is the better option is that I believe this quote
or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way
to be wrong.
There are three main contributory factors to a rise on Nationalism. 1 the reduction of National identity (centralisation, harmonisation etc) 2 a feeling of persecution (political, social, religious etc) 3 serious economic hardship.
I see the EU as bringing two of these to the people of Europe.
In the EU (or any other State) manufactured from non homogeneous indigenous populations from sovereign counties that see their historical boundaries and customs eroded and destroyed will experience a rise in Nationalism. The EU will in the long term be a cause for the increase of Nationalism.
If there is a dominant region (or culture, religion or caste) in the EU the regions that 'feel' dominated, persecuted and have either real or artificial grievances will see a rise in Nationalism. (see Scotland, Catalonia, Bavaria etc)
I think the most telling point about Morgan's 'holidaying in the EU is not going abroad' and 'young people feel European' comments is that they show quite clearly that this is the direction the EU supporters want our society to go in.
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
I think you'll find the the UK is a laissez faire, free market, capitalist economy. It is a much fairer assessment to blame Thatcher et al for liberalising markets rather than the bogeyman of Europe as to why our tradesmen are paid badly.
The majority of people who back Brexit are even more gungho about laissez faire economics which only makes the split between rich and poorer greater. They are also more likely to be skeptical about the climate and consider that any intervention by the government is necessarily bad. Brexiters are particularly motivated by lowest common denominator politics as a whole.
I think think that sums it up. Those of us directly affected by the vote are pro Remain, and those with their head in the clouds, who have some whimsical, illogical view of how things work, or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way. But I doubt very few of these people are affected one way or t'other about how things go, so it doesn't matter much for them.
I don't need project fear to understand the impact on me personally. The run up is already costing me a grand a month on my currency transactions alone. The impact of a Brexit vote would be too stressful for me to contemplate such are my interests in Europe.
I wonder how many pro Brexit posters here would be happy to lose this kind of money and face such uncertainty in their long term financial and personal affairs, and still back Brexit.
'Even I, occasionally, worry that we'll be viewed as some kind of pariah State if we vote Leave'
Well that was true after King Henry VIII broke with Rome, but it was 100% the right decision to do so.
Unless you were one of the unfortunates who lost his/her head. This though is the problem with the Referendum. Nearly everyone really affected by the decision is pro Remain.
Those with a sentimental attachment to warm beer cricket on the village green and other notions of times gone by are for 'Leave'. Fortunately the motivation to vote is going to be much stronger among those to whom it makes a serious difference
I am not sure I agree with that. If you are a tradesman being undercut by eastern European tradesmen you are directly affected and you may well be inclined to vote to Leave.
What I'd say is that the higher up the wages scale you go, the less the outcome will materially affect you whatever happens.
I think the most telling point about Morgan's 'holidaying in the EU is not going abroad' and 'young people feel European' comments is that they show quite clearly that this is the direction the EU supporters want our society to go in.
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
I completely agree with this. That is exactly what she was trying to do.
Mr observer,or you see your Quality of life suffer in the area you live because of unskilled poor immigration,like schools overcrowded,heathcentres/hospitals full,housing shortage with immigration - I could go on.
That's why I'm voting leave,I can't afford someone living in Italy saying everything is wonderful on the remain side when this person couldn't give a sh*t about people like me and my family,just look at his post,it's me,me,me.
Sure - and for you it is you, you, you. For you the perceived benefits of leaving outweigh the perceived benefits of staying.
People are making the same calculations on both sides. People do not vote against what they want to happen.
Unless I missed it Howard Marks isn't dead YET....he is cancer and hasn't got long.
Had a trawl round, Mr U, and I think you’re right. Colon cancer isn’t one the ones that kill you quickly, unless secondaries develop. If it’s operable, it’s curable as I’m sure I can assert, and will know for sure in a few weeks. Not sure if something is cut out it’s cured though. Suppose the patient isn’t a sufferer any longer.
Seriously, I am for Leave but I am not enjoying the comments from quite a number of my fellow Leavers, not at all. Richard Nabavi is a big boy who can look after himself but the hounding and moaning about a speech by Nicky Morgan (I mean Nicky Morgan for goodness sake, who the hell cares what she said) was tedious, unpleasant and worst of all, seriously boring. It is putting me off coming here, I won't deny it.
David, are you saying we should just let the government's fear campaign go unchallenged? It's absolutely stupid to say that backpacking or inter-railing will be more difficult in the case of Brexit, especially since inter-rail isn't anything to do with the EU and easy movement on the continent is Schengen, again something not to do with the EU.
Morgan made a foolish comment, people said it was foolish and others denied it, despite the overwhelming evidence of it being a foolish comment.
One last time.
She claimed that the youth of today feel much more European than their parents and grandparents did. They don't regard going to the EU as going abroad at all. They expect the same services, she might have mentioned medical care, she might have mentioned mobile phone tariffs, she might have had in mind Schengen and the lack of visas, whatever.
It's a point of view. I don't agree with it. I don't share it. I don't want to spend hours doing a syntactical analysis of what she said or have other people doing it on my half. She is just not that interesting, she really isn't.
Really? Many in my friendship group holiday several times a year in EU countries and they regard it as going abroad. I have never met anyone who believes that holidaying in the EU is not going abroad. I imagine you would find such people in that extreme minority of 15% < who claim that they feel European and not British.
Surely this is a wind up? Is there some part of "I don't agree" that you are struggling with?
Edit. Apologies. Excessively grumpy response.
It was with reference to Morgan's comments which you summarised.
And said I did not agree with.
Next time I will just quote directly from a newspaper to avoid confusion.
Theresa is rather quiet. Smart move:back REMAIN but do nothing for the cause. If Cameron falls as a result of all of this she will be in a strong position. Just like 1990, it will be a process of elimination. Hurd too posh, Heseltine too disloyal. Osborne too toxic, Boris not trusted.
Hague is ramping the Big Brother Bill in the Telegraph today, his argument is rather incoherent, which is slightly worrying as he claimed to be one of the people that used to have to sign off on snooping. That will fall in May's lap soon enough, coining the term "The Nasty Party" and being embarrassingly pro-snooping and anti-civil liberties will come back to haunt her.
We have a group of terrorists that were found to have a horde of untraceable anonymous "one-use" cellphones that they used for communications, and yet this situation is supposedly going to be improved by bulk data collection where we can tell who it talking to who and build a pattern for intelligence purposes... except that they are using anonymous one use phones, so we DON'T know who they are and who they are talking to, and even if we did they would be talking on a different (unknown) phone to someone else on a different (unknown) phone next time.
@Tyson - I think it is undeniable that British-born tradesmen face greater competition for work than they did before the free movement of people within in the EU kicked in. Of course, the Tories signed up for this for the reasons you outline, but it only happened because of the EU. Increased competition for jobs has surely pushed down rates and improved service. Bad news for producers, good news for consumers. It's only natural that they would want to restrict the competition they face.
I completely agree with this. That is exactly what she was trying to do.
The Remain side are often accused of not putting a positive case. She did, and rather well. As I said earlier, I was somewhat surprised, as she's not someone I've particularly rated in the past.
I think I heard Jo Johnson speak passionately about the need to Remain a couple of days ago. If you can't even convince your younger brother things really are falling apart in the Johnson family
I think the most telling point about Morgan's 'holidaying in the EU is not going abroad' and 'young people feel European' comments is that they show quite clearly that this is the direction the EU supporters want our society to go in.
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
Fair enough, if one's a true believer in the idea of creating a single EU nation. But, it's not a point of view I share.
That said, I think it can only be a very narrow circle of people who don't regard countries like France, Italy, Germany, as "abroad".
I completely agree with this. That is exactly what she was trying to do.
The Remain side are often accused of not putting a positive case. She did, and rather well. As I said earlier, I was somewhat surprised, as she's not someone I've particularly rated in the past.
She was saying that the young would be most affected by Brexit. How's that being positive?
I completely agree with this. That is exactly what she was trying to do.
The Remain side are often accused of not putting a positive case. She did, and rather well. As I said earlier, I was somewhat surprised, as she's not someone I've particularly rated in the past.
Well, its a vision I suppose. And its more honest than most of Remain have been about where this is all headed.
'The Remain side are often accused of not putting a positive case'
I will be delighted if Remain continue to push this particular case.
I look forward to them being honest (at last), dropping all the economic scaremongering, and arguing that the future for the UK is to be absorbed into a European state and that the British people will have to accept a 'European' identity.
But I imagine this won't happen, and the little peek Morgan has given us of what the Remain side really want won't be repeated too often.
@Tyson - I think it is undeniable that British-born tradesmen face greater competition for work than they did before the free movement of people within in the EU kicked in. Of course, the Tories signed up for this for the reasons you outline, but it only happened because of the EU. Increased competition for jobs has surely pushed down rates and improved service. Bad news for producers, good news for consumers. It's only natural that they would want to restrict the competition they face.
What evidence is there it is good news for consumers ? If the effect of mass immigration is lower prices but you get taxed more to subsidise low wages, pay more for your house or rent because the infrastructure can't accommodate the rapid influx and have your schools, hospitals and public services overloaded despite having to pay higher taxes for them. That might not be the killer bargain you think.
The movement in the EU ref. polls reminds of the AV ref. polls, they too started with 20+ point leads but within a few months that lead was gone and it went back and forth until a month before the vote when FPTP broke off into a decisive and ever widening lead.
I think we have to wait until after the local elections in May to know who will win the referendum. But the wind blows in the sails of Leave, certainty with the lower turnout in it's favour, those absolutely certain to vote in it's favour, and a 15 point lead with pensioners. Also the Remain camp is underwhelmed and with a total lack of enthusiasm or belief for their cause.
I think the most telling point about Morgan's 'holidaying in the EU is not going abroad' and 'young people feel European' comments is that they show quite clearly that this is the direction the EU supporters want our society to go in.
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
If Remain wins, never let it be said that people weren't voting to assert a European identity.
Mr. Indigo, they're hunting for a needle in a haystack. And want a bigger haystack to aid the search...
It the politicians standard reply to the spooks standard excuse. Every time something goes wrong, the head spook gets asked why he didn't predict the thing going wrong, the choice of answers comes down to a) because we fucked up or b) because we didn't know enough. Guess which one gets chosen every time. It is well known that the NSA cannot process but a fraction of the information they collect, so its all comes down to targeting in the end, and they have vastly more resources at their disposal than the folks in Cheltenham.
She was saying that the young would be most affected by Brexit. How's that being positive?
Any fair-minded person, reading that speech as a piece of advocacy for the Remain side and one aimed at young people, would accept that it's a well-written and positive speech. That's not to say I agree with it, I'm just being objective about the quality of how she puts the case, in exactly the same way as I was when I said that Michael Gove's piece explaining why he was supporting Leave was excellent (and Boris's wasn't).
@Tyson - I think it is undeniable that British-born tradesmen face greater competition for work than they did before the free movement of people within in the EU kicked in. Of course, the Tories signed up for this for the reasons you outline, but it only happened because of the EU. Increased competition for jobs has surely pushed down rates and improved service. Bad news for producers, good news for consumers. It's only natural that they would want to restrict the competition they face.
@Tyson - I think it is undeniable that British-born tradesmen face greater competition for work than they did before the free movement of people within in the EU kicked in. Of course, the Tories signed up for this for the reasons you outline, but it only happened because of the EU. Increased competition for jobs has surely pushed down rates and improved service. Bad news for producers, good news for consumers. It's only natural that they would want to restrict the competition they face.
What evidence is there it is good news for consumers ? If the effect of mass immigration is lower prices but you get taxed more to subsidise low wages, pay more for your house or rent because the infrastructure can't accommodate the rapid influx and have your schools, hospitals and public services overloaded despite having to pay higher taxes for them. That might not be the killer bargain you think.
It all seems pretty much zero-sum to me, in the context of an economy that isn't growing very rapidly.
@Tyson - I think it is undeniable that British-born tradesmen face greater competition for work than they did before the free movement of people within in the EU kicked in. Of course, the Tories signed up for this for the reasons you outline, but it only happened because of the EU. Increased competition for jobs has surely pushed down rates and improved service. Bad news for producers, good news for consumers. It's only natural that they would want to restrict the competition they face.
I think your response is thoughtful and considered and right to some extent. But I think you are wrong about the time frames- in the short term nationalism will be fuelled by immigration. In the long term less so, as we integrate more effectively.
@Tykejohno It really is lowest common denominator stuff to blame migrants (and poor people, usually those people on benefits) for things not going well. It is what feeds the Mail, Sun, Express and detracts where the real problems lie.
Rich people are getting richer. The concentration of wealth is getting more acute and uneven. Access to generating wealth is getting harder. Public services have been downgraded as the politics of austerity takes hold.
Politicians, rich corporations, and the wealthy elite are the ones responsible for making things worse. Osborne cannot even deal with the generous tax reliefs on pension for the most wealthy- and has to target poor, disabled people instead because of the protected interests of the rich who already have all the cards stacked in their favour.
I look forward to them being honest (at last), dropping all the economic scaremongering, and arguing that the future for the UK is to be absorbed into a European state and that the British people will have to accept a 'European' identity.
But I imagine this won't happen, and the little peek Morgan has given us of what the Remain side really want won't be repeated too often.
It won't happen, because she said nothing of the kind. Nor did she say 'young people feel European'. But don't let mere facts interfere with your wilful blindness.
I think I heard Jo Johnson speak passionately about the need to Remain a couple of days ago. If you can't even convince your younger brother things really are falling apart in the Johnson family
I think the Johnson family are all pro-Remain except Boris - certainly Stanley (father) is, since he feels it's crucial for the environment.
But to be fair, none of us can really deliver all our relatives. I have an uncle who is a keen UKIP supporter, and a cousin who thinks Labour is still too right-wing. I'm the moderate centre ground
I think the most telling point about Morgan's 'holidaying in the EU is not going abroad' and 'young people feel European' comments is that they show quite clearly that this is the direction the EU supporters want our society to go in.
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
Fair enough, if one's a true believer in the idea of creating a single EU nation. But, it's not a point of view I share.
That said, I think it can only be a very narrow circle of people who don't regard countries like France, Italy, Germany, as "abroad".
You need a passport, different currency, different language...they're abroad.
Comments
And Remain still haven't found an aspirational position. It's all EU bogeyman will get us. An odd position for those advocating we're meant to be friends.
Are you seriously saying that the murders and rapes committed by these 50 while in the UK were only committed on the less well off?
Yes it is - the proper comparison is with the number of serious crimes committed in those categories.
So for example there are about 600 murders a year in the UK. If 30 of those, for arguments' sake, were committed by EU citizens who could have been refused entry then the failure to keep them out could reasonably be argued to have had a significant effect on the murder rate.
Remember how much that was going to damage Dave.
Of course it's possible companies may look at a coming wage bill increase for established staff and have a hiring freeze as a result.
Ultimately, for whatever reasons, most of us have a gut feeling as to how we intend to vote.
The most suspicious thing I notice about all these angles of the incident...TheDonald's hair...
At the VERY least we should be able to blacklist people we don't want in the country, specifically those we have thrown out. At the moment we cannot throw out an EU citizen after they get out of their 10-stretch for armed robbery, and even it we could we cant stop the coming back in again. Any nation state that is worth the name as the ability to declare foreign national "persona non grata" and have the removed from the country and blacklisted from returning, EU member states being some of the very small number of countries that cannot.
https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/714837586859204608
I don't need project fear to understand the impact on me personally. The run up is already costing me a grand a month on my currency transactions alone. The impact of a Brexit vote would be too stressful for me to contemplate such are my interests in Europe.
I wonder how many pro Brexit posters here would be happy to lose this kind of money and face such uncertainty in their long term financial and personal affairs, and still back Brexit.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/466151/EEA_FNO_Cases_v4_0.pdf
I just can't see how he is going to pull this round after the vote (whatever the result).
But my reason for thinking New York specifically could be close is I think people seeing Wall Street greed right in front of their eyes might make people angry and more open to Sanders' message (one of the reasons also that London has trended Labour, IMO).
If Sanders can keep his margin of defeat with blacks in NY respectable like in Michigan (rather than a complete rout like in the Deep South) then he could keep it close.
There are legitimate arguments on both sides (as well the hyperbolic shrieking we've also seen). Surely better to respectfully disagree than consider everyone* with a differing view to be irrational?
*Some people, on both sides, are nuts.
https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/714836090516070402
https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/714834246007971840
No Way Out.
Indeed. There should be sign...
Warning: Referendum may contain nuts.
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/714840961659105280
I can see no circumstance that will make me vote remain. If I do vote it will be Leave
Mr Erdogan is now asking Germany to stop broadcasting a programme that is critical of him. Merkel sticking her head in the sand and hoping the problem goes away.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/erdogan-fordert-stopp-von-ndr-satire-berlin-schweigt-14149904.html
What I'd say is that the higher up the wages scale you go, the less the outcome will materially affect you whatever happens.
So it would be easy to add to this list from criminal records if Britain wanted to?
He is more favourable with democrats than republicans, which is natural but it's not a way to stop a party from splitting.
The reason why the GOP is doomed is very simple they have been a failure at governing since the early 90's and are stuck with the stench of corruption and incompetence.
Paul Ryan's major speech last week was a prime example, he talked about Reagan and a bill passed by Jack Kemp 37 years ago as it's main feature, talking about being stuck in the past.
Hence they will lose badly, democrat voters are dissatisfied with their party but are content, republican voters absolutely hate their party and everyone and everything it stands for.
#LeaveEU would like to thank everyone for such a great first response from our recent letter! https://t.co/y0QsRY6CmN
Over 1000 donations to Hargreaves letter
Edit. Apologies. Excessively grumpy response.
Smug lefties telling me that only the smart, forward thinking, clever, beautiful people are for Remain isn't going to bring me into their fold.
I think that opinion is shared by enough people to have cost Boris a third term even if he ran.
The spot calls on people to vote for Mr. Cruz to stop Mr. Trump, saying that Mr. Kasich “can’t do it.” And the group Our Principles PAC, which was founded to stop Mr. Trump in January, will begin reserving airtime, according to its strategist. "
"Can't do it" = "Can't win here"?!?!?!
Hostage who took selfie with #EgyptAir hijacker is 26-year-old Brit from Leeds https://t.co/hNI0C71qCE https://t.co/TgrmjMOHS3
That's why I'm voting leave,I can't afford someone living in Italy saying everything is wonderful on the remain side when this person couldn't give a sh*t about people like me and my family,just look at his post,it's me,me,me.
I wouldn't agree with that assumption. I am against remain, for Leave. I travel, do EU business, employ etc.
One of the reasons I think Leave is the better option is that I believe this quote
or are motivated by dark forces such as nationalism vote the other way
to be wrong.
There are three main contributory factors to a rise on Nationalism.
1 the reduction of National identity (centralisation, harmonisation etc)
2 a feeling of persecution (political, social, religious etc)
3 serious economic hardship.
I see the EU as bringing two of these to the people of Europe.
In the EU (or any other State) manufactured from non homogeneous indigenous populations from sovereign counties that see their historical boundaries and customs eroded and destroyed will experience a rise in Nationalism. The EU will in the long term be a cause for the increase of Nationalism.
If there is a dominant region (or culture, religion or caste) in the EU the regions that 'feel' dominated, persecuted and have either real or artificial grievances will see a rise in Nationalism. (see Scotland, Catalonia, Bavaria etc)
They are completely signed up to the EU vision of a 'European' identity as the basis of a European state. They are trying to tell us 'this is the future' and there is no alternative, that the notion of the UK as a nation state is redundant. This is exactly what Ted Heath was arguing 40-50 years ago.
It's one view of the future, but not one I think most British people much like the idea of.
The majority of people who back Brexit are even more gungho about laissez faire economics which only makes the split between rich and poorer greater. They are also more likely to be skeptical about the climate and consider that any intervention by the government is necessarily bad. Brexiters are particularly motivated by lowest common denominator politics as a whole.
People are making the same calculations on both sides. People do not vote against what they want to happen.
Not sure if something is cut out it’s cured though. Suppose the patient isn’t a sufferer any longer.
We have a group of terrorists that were found to have a horde of untraceable anonymous "one-use" cellphones that they used for communications, and yet this situation is supposedly going to be improved by bulk data collection where we can tell who it talking to who and build a pattern for intelligence purposes... except that they are using anonymous one use phones, so we DON'T know who they are and who they are talking to, and even if we did they would be talking on a different (unknown) phone to someone else on a different (unknown) phone next time.
I feel that I can support the government from the back benches etc.
That said, I think it can only be a very narrow circle of people who don't regard countries like France, Italy, Germany, as "abroad".
How's that being positive?
I will be delighted if Remain continue to push this particular case.
I look forward to them being honest (at last), dropping all the economic scaremongering, and arguing that the future for the UK is to be absorbed into a European state and that the British people will have to accept a 'European' identity.
But I imagine this won't happen, and the little peek Morgan has given us of what the Remain side really want won't be repeated too often.
The movement in the EU ref. polls reminds of the AV ref. polls, they too started with 20+ point leads but within a few months that lead was gone and it went back and forth until a month before the vote when FPTP broke off into a decisive and ever widening lead.
I think we have to wait until after the local elections in May to know who will win the referendum.
But the wind blows in the sails of Leave, certainty with the lower turnout in it's favour, those absolutely certain to vote in it's favour, and a 15 point lead with pensioners.
Also the Remain camp is underwhelmed and with a total lack of enthusiasm or belief for their cause.
https://youtu.be/vs41JrnGaxc
You know he'll hump anything.
Leave.EU spokesman explains why Yugoslav genocide shows the EU is a bad idea.
https://twitter.com/PkhPeter/status/713275660907778048
I think your response is thoughtful and considered and right to some extent. But I think you are wrong about the time frames- in the short term nationalism will be fuelled by immigration. In the long term less so, as we integrate more effectively.
@Tykejohno
It really is lowest common denominator stuff to blame migrants (and poor people, usually those people on benefits) for things not going well. It is what feeds the Mail, Sun, Express and detracts where the real problems lie.
Rich people are getting richer. The concentration of wealth is getting more acute and uneven. Access to generating wealth is getting harder. Public services have been downgraded as the politics of austerity takes hold.
Politicians, rich corporations, and the wealthy elite are the ones responsible for making things worse. Osborne cannot even deal with the generous tax reliefs on pension for the most wealthy- and has to target poor, disabled people instead because of the protected interests of the rich who already have all the cards stacked in their favour.
Really, and you seek to blame the migrants......
Surprised he didn't whip out a high viz jacket and tell him that he must wear this when undertaking risky tasks...
But to be fair, none of us can really deliver all our relatives. I have an uncle who is a keen UKIP supporter, and a cousin who thinks Labour is still too right-wing. I'm the moderate centre ground