@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Game over.
It's only just started. If true, he was one of the many here, soon to be joined by the millions Merkel invited.
The ramifications of this will be big, first of all the blame is now on 2 hands, Merkel and Tsipras, although Greece can no longer be described as a state but rather a German satellite, therefore Merkel gets more of the blame.
You know in British terms Merkel would be forced to resign.
There are some things we are better at than the Germans. Taking responsibility for decisions is one.
I'm not sure you can really get away with that comment.
Germany, since 1945 is possibly the greatest example of a society fully and unconditionally taking responsibility for its disastrous decisions.
1 million migrants invited across Europe...... Has Merkel resigned yet? (and then there is the economic distress caused by the Euro).
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Game over.
It's only just started. If true, he was one of the many here, soon to be joined by the millions Merkel invited.
Thousands of young men are going to be very angry and disillusioned when they don't get the house/job/money/bride they were expecting when they made it to Europe.
As I posted in the last thread, Germany expects to take close to A MILLION migrants alone.
@jamesmatesitv: If true that a #Parisattacks gunman arrived as refugee through Greece last month, attitudes to those coming to Europe cd change rather fast
Bang goes the theory that all the Paris terrorist were home grown – Syrian refugees were the only group within the myriad of migrants presently flooding into Western Europe that had the people’s sympathy, - that too may now be gone.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Game over.
It's only just started. If true, he was one of the many here, soon to be joined by the millions Merkel invited.
The ramifications of this will be big, first of all the blame is now on 2 hands, Merkel and Tsipras, although Greece can no longer be described as a state but rather a German satellite, therefore Merkel gets more of the blame.
You know in British terms Merkel would be forced to resign.
There are some things we are better at than the Germans. Taking responsibility for decisions is one.
I'm not sure you can really get away with that comment.
Germany, since 1945 is possibly the greatest example of a society fully and unconditionally taking responsibility for its disastrous decisions.
Ever since the announcement of Merkel's migration policy (which now, certainly looks ill-advised and pretty much impossible to implement given the lack of support for it in Germany and across Europe), on PB there's been a 'aren't Germany terrible' and 'isn't Merkel awful/Dave is amazing' theme to various threads.
I'm not sure anymore I'm willing to accept that Islam is a great (other than in size) religion or a peaceful one. Where is the evidence for its peaceful nature? What is so great about it? Some of its tenets seem to be quite revolting: no love one another and do as you would be done by, no the greatest of these is love. It's about kuffars and killing the unbeliever and submission
Interestingly I was looking back at some of the threads around the time of the Charlie Hebdo killings and found this from Mark Steyn:-
"I think it's at war with a culture that basically does not have the spirit of liberty and the spirit of intellectual inquiry. So you can come up with the most devastating, witty, trenchant argument, and the other fellow is just going to reach for the scimitar and slice your head off. And that calls into question, I think it does call into question as to whether Europe, in allowing Islam to nest within Western pluralistic democracies, has actually placed an existential question over its future. That's a real question for France today."
Special forces soldiers have been deployed on to Britain’s streets to monitor stations, shopping centres and key public places amid fears the UK could be the next target for an Isil terror outrage.
Personnel from the elite Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR) are backing up undercover armed police officers to protect the UK in the wake of the Paris massacre.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
I'm not so sure. Is there an obvious successor/rebel in the CDU who would challenge her? I think this weakens her and hastens her departure from office (I do not think she is likely to stay much longer anyway) but I'm not sure she'll be driven out, or fall on her own sword.
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
No - because Islamist terrorism started long before the Iraq war.
When did islamic terrorism start? Can anyone pinpoint where it all went down hill?
When the Israelis occupied Palestine ? Since people trying to get rid of occupiers are nowadays called terrorists.
Another person who helped Arab Terrorism is someone called the Lawrence of Arabia. But he was getting rid of the Turks, so OK then.
You are right, it was Lawrence of Arabia in WW1 using it against Turkey, so it formed as usual by western powers to fight another enemy, it reminds me of the board game "War on Terror, the boardgame".
@jamesmatesitv: If true that a #Parisattacks gunman arrived as refugee through Greece last month, attitudes to those coming to Europe cd change rather fast
Bang goes the theory that all the Paris terrorist were home grown – Syrian refugees were the only group within the myriad of migrants presently flooding into Western Europe that had the people’s sympathy, - that too may now be gone.
Shit ! Sisi was here only a week ago telling Dave how he slaughtered 600 in one night !
Keiran Pedley's thread is full of contradictions; we mustn't give muslims even a glance. Why the hell not? We are not going to defeat Islamisation and Jihadism by being coy and blush at sight of a hijab. The whole truth is that ISIS and their like think that they have a chance of wiping out Christian Europe, what remains of it, by fear on the one hand and by the worm of multiculturalism, brought on by those benighted liberals and lefties that cant stand the fact that their nation/s once ruled the world, yes, by force, but also by intellect; giving rise to a civilisation that they are only too pleased to see destroyed.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
£20 says she'll still be here at the end of the month let alone a week. What do you think?
Plato's point would seem to be that we have moved on from many of these problems in our society, yet we now have them resurfacing thanks to Islamic culture.
Anyone who has lobbied for gay rights, against fascism, for female equality and so on can only logically take a position against Islamists and the creed they follow.
Would they be a different sort of better Islam followers or even worse that our current crop?
I feel this is angel-head nitpicking differentiation by Keiran. We already have a substantial problem, adding to it doesn't help - it makes a bad situation more dangerous.
Sorry, Keiran - can't agree with 80% of that. Immigration from fundamentally different cultures based on Islam has caused many many problems here that we didn't have before at the present rate:
What has Islam done for us since about 8th Century?
Rightly or wrongly, I interpreted Kieran's reference to the migrant crisis as meaning the present vast numbers arriving & making the journey now.
Indeed we do already have a substantial problem. That's why I feel that 'Home Defence' should be top priority, before deciding to send our 'boots on the ground' elsewhere.
These people will not go away. Adopting a bunker mentality will fail in the long term. Besides, it's just plain irresponsible.
Would they be a different sort of better Islam followers or even worse that our current crop?
(snipped) What has Islam done for us since about 8th Century?
Rightly or wrongly, I interpreted Kieran's reference to the migrant crisis as meaning the present vast numbers arriving & making the journey now.
Indeed we do already have a substantial problem. That's why I feel that 'Home Defence' should be top priority, before deciding to send our 'boots on the ground' elsewhere.
Speedy said: I disagree, no matter how good are the defences as shown by the french and the russians they don't work, going on the offensive is the only practical solution, but you have to do it in a way that it obscures the western element for political reasons.
Trying to reply to 2 people at once, so apols if it all goes wrong.
By 'top priority' I mean securing the home base first before undertaking whatever else seems advisable.
As an example, my father, a merchant seaman, didn't duck out of his job when WW11 broke out to try to protect his family. He did spend his shore leave digging a hole in the garden & installing a bomb shelter to keep then safe(ish) whilst he was away
@jamesmatesitv: If true that a #Parisattacks gunman arrived as refugee through Greece last month, attitudes to those coming to Europe cd change rather fast
Bang goes the theory that all the Paris terrorist were home grown – Syrian refugees were the only group within the myriad of migrants presently flooding into Western Europe that had the people’s sympathy, - that too may now be gone.
Shit ! Sisi was here only a week ago telling Dave how he slaughtered 600 in one night !
Perhaps that's why some might have been keen to leave?
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
I'm not so sure. Is there an obvious successor/rebel in the CDU who would challenge her? I think this weakens her and hastens her departure from office (I do not think she is likely to stay much longer anyway) but I'm not sure she'll be driven out, or fall on her own sword.
John Major wasn't an obvious successor to Thatcher but he still got the crown. My candidate for german John Major would be Ursula von der Leyen:
What is remarkable is how various agencies did make links fairly fast.
Last night I mentioned three things as the situation progressed.
1. That someone in particular on a watch list was noted by the police early on in events not at home. That person is now revealed to be one of the dead attackers , a young Frenchman known to the authorities.
2. That the perpetrators were not all French or long term resident there. This now looks likely
3. Whether some dodge-pot based in the Benelux was involved in the chain of events. Turns out three of the attackers lived in Belgium.
So whilst there can be criticism, maybe justified, maybe not, a number of strong possibilities were indicated early on, even as the shooting was still going on.
Plato's point would seem to be that we have moved on from many of these problems in our society, yet we now have them resurfacing thanks to Islamic culture.
Anyone who has lobbied for gay rights, against fascism, for female equality and so on can only logically take a position against Islamists and the creed they follow.
What I find hard to get my head around is many of those that have traditionally fought the hardest against homophobia, inequality, animal rights etc etc etc, seem completely willing to turn a blind eye to it within a certain section of society.
But if Cameron says calm down dear, the outcry is deafening.
Votes, pure and simple.
In amongst the useful idiots like Corbyn, many decent people's previous principles are being pushed to the side as an electoral expediency.
@sundersays: Unusually, Stop the War have responded to criticism of their post about Paris 'reaping the whirlwind' by removing the post & deleting tweets
What is remarkable is how various agencies did make links fairly fast.
Last night I mentioned three things as the situation progressed.
1. That someone in particular on a watch list was noted by the police early on in events not at home. That person is now revealed to be one of the dead attackers , a young Frenchman known to the authorities.
2. That the perpetrators were not all French or long term resident there. This now looks likely
3. Whether some dodge-pot based in the Benelux was involved in the chain of events. Turns out three of the attackers lived in Belgium.
So whilst there can be criticism, maybe justified, maybe not, a number of strong possibilities were indicated early on, even as the shooting was still going on.
I understand that authorities have been very worried about Beligum for a while now. For a small country, they have had a huge number of citizens go to Syria etc and since returned.
Plato's point would seem to be that we have moved on from many of these problems in our society, yet we now have them resurfacing thanks to Islamic culture.
Anyone who has lobbied for gay rights, against fascism, for female equality and so on can only logically take a position against Islamists and the creed they follow.
Spot on.
Not necessarily.
You might advocate such things because you see them as means to undermine your society. It would therefore be quite logical to side with Islamists too.
That's how Soviet Communist revolutionaries could go from championing gay rights, the end of capital punishment, womens' rights, the rights of non-Russian minorities to repression when they took power.
What is remarkable is how various agencies did make links fairly fast.
Last night I mentioned three things as the situation progressed.
1. That someone in particular on a watch list was noted by the police early on in events not at home. That person is now revealed to be one of the dead attackers , a young Frenchman known to the authorities.
2. That the perpetrators were not all French or long term resident there. This now looks likely
3. Whether some dodge-pot based in the Benelux was involved in the chain of events. Turns out three of the attackers lived in Belgium.
So whilst there can be criticism, maybe justified, maybe not, a number of strong possibilities were indicated early on, even as the shooting was still going on.
I understand that authorities have been very worried about Beligum for a while now. For a small country, they have had a huge number of citizens go to Syria etc and since returned.
Its a f**king hole to be honest when it comes to this stuff.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
I'm not so sure. Is there an obvious successor/rebel in the CDU who would challenge her? I think this weakens her and hastens her departure from office (I do not think she is likely to stay much longer anyway) but I'm not sure she'll be driven out, or fall on her own sword.
John Major wasn't an obvious successor to Thatcher but he still got the crown. My candidate for german John Major would be Ursula von der Leyen:
Disagree with this, though the rest of the article is sound. The real figure is about 70%. There is a large minority of Muslims in Britain who sympathise or agree with terrorist attacks, a smaller yet significant minority would be willing to carry out such attacks. It has shown in the polling every single time.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
I'm not so sure. Is there an obvious successor/rebel in the CDU who would challenge her? I think this weakens her and hastens her departure from office (I do not think she is likely to stay much longer anyway) but I'm not sure she'll be driven out, or fall on her own sword.
John Major wasn't an obvious successor to Thatcher but he still got the crown. My candidate for german John Major would be Ursula von der Leyen:
Von Der Leyen is even more europhile that Merkel, IIRC her talking of an EU army as opposed to national armies. I think Merkel will survive this though; she just won't contest 2017.
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
No - because Islamist terrorism started long before the Iraq war.
When did islamic terrorism start? Can anyone pinpoint where it all went down hill?
I will give it a try (in two parts because of length constraints). There was terrorism within Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and 1960s. There was Palestinian terrorism post the 1967 war but that was largely aimed at Israel or at putting pressure on European states by carrying out spectaculars within Europe. What really gave a more generalised Islamist terrorism rocket boosters was the fall of the Shah and the coming to power of Khomeini.
There was the fatwa on Rushdie which was a terrorist act - certainly an incitement to terror: remember that some translators died and plenty of others called for Rushdie's death. The Iranian regime also sponsored terrorist acts in far away countries e.g. Argentina. But the Khomeinist revolution in Iran helped develop and/or boosted the Islamist current within Islam and within Muslim societies and that spread into Muslim populations within Europe.
Lots of countries and events provided a breeding ground: the Bosnian wars, Algeria, Afghanistan. The attacks on US targets in Arabia and in Africa (Kenya for instance) were in the 1990s. 9/11 was not the start by any means. There had been plenty going on before then but it had not impinged on public consciousness and had not been taken sufficiently seriously by the US authorities and others.
When Bin Laden declared war on the US, it was largely dismissed and ignored. When he said that a Caliphate needed to be recreated and that it needed extend to all the lands previously occupied by Arabs, including the old Al-Andalus, it was dismissed as delusional ravings. There have been lots of groups and lots of events since then: the wars in Iraq etc. But Islamist terror against Western targets, Western personnel and on Western soil have been going on for some time.
The intellectual and ideological roots of Islamist ideology are varied: they include Islam but they owe more than we might suppose to the totalitarian death cults of the West (i.e. Fascism, Nazism and Communism). Islamism shares one characteristic with those ideologies above all - it is a reaction to and has an intense hatred of the pluralistic liberal and democratic world which started to come into being in the last century and like those ideologies it believes in the use of extreme violence to achieve its goal to remake society in its ideal form.
If the true Islamic society can only be created through mass killing, then mass killing there will have to be and there is nothing wrong with this. Lenin and Stalin and Hitler would have understood all of this perfectly well.
Just because a society develops, becomes richer and more educated and more exposed to other influences - as the Middle Eastern world arguably has done - does not mean that it automatically adopts the culture, values, ways of thought of the Western world. And in Islam Islamist ideology has the perfect breeding ground for a very different view of the world and how societies should be ordered.
This is a very quick summary of what is obviously a very complex topic.
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
BEDFORD, United Kingdom – As the distressing attacks in Paris were occurring last night, some of Britain’s most high profile and notorious Islamist extremists gathered just north of London, unimpeded, to tell hundreds of British Muslims to “struggle” for an “Islamic State.” Breitbart London was there.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
Plato's point would seem to be that we have moved on from many of these problems in our society, yet we now have them resurfacing thanks to Islamic culture.
Anyone who has lobbied for gay rights, against fascism, for female equality and so on can only logically take a position against Islamists and the creed they follow.
What I find hard to get my head around is many of those that have traditionally fought the hardest against homophobia, inequality, animal rights etc etc etc, seem completely willing to turn a blind eye to it within a certain section of society.
But if Cameron says calm down dear, the outcry is deafening.
Why are you surprised?
First their commitment to these rights is skin deep and often only done because others (conservatives, say) are against them and, even more importantly, what's key is who you are agains. It is that which defines you and whether you are one of the good people or the bad people. So anyone who is against the US/Israel/the West/colonialism is "good" and gets their support and what they actually believe is ignored. Anyone who supports the West is a "bad" person and so their support for gay rights is ignored or is irrelevant.
It's just the 21st century's version of "My enemy's enemy is my friend." It is wholly unprincipled. It is morally repulsive. But the ends justify the means.
" We must also resist suspicious glances at Muslims in general, 99.9% of whom deplore such actions as the Muslim Council of Britain has made clear. "
And so the headinthesand drivel continues:
Its only a tiny minority. Its only a few taxi drivers. Nothing is really happening. Community relations must not be damaged. RAYYCCIISSTT.
Industrial scale racist child rape FGM Election rigging Forced marriage Cousin marriage 'Honour' killings Islamic hate academies Trojan horse schools Fatwas against and murders of various writers, filmmakers and cartoonists
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
No - because Islamist terrorism started long before the Iraq war.
When did islamic terrorism start? Can anyone pinpoint where it all went down hill?
About 630 AD.
You're gonna be accused of Islamophobia!
Tom Holland has made the point that the modus operandi of IS isn't that different from 7th century Arab conquerors.
Or the Mughals in India. Convert or die.
In fairness, it's not at all clear that Islam actually existed as a religion, separate from Monophysite Christianity or Judaism, in the 7th century. The Arabs were just predators, like the Vikings, a couple of hundred years later.
Plato's point would seem to be that we have moved on from many of these problems in our society, yet we now have them resurfacing thanks to Islamic culture.
Anyone who has lobbied for gay rights, against fascism, for female equality and so on can only logically take a position against Islamists and the creed they follow.
Spot on.
Not necessarily.
You might advocate such things because you see them as means to undermine your society. It would therefore be quite logical to side with Islamists too.
That's how Soviet Communist revolutionaries could go from championing gay rights, the end of capital punishment, womens' rights, the rights of non-Russian minorities to repression when they took power.
Its very revealing how the 'anti-racists' looked and continue to look the other way about Rotherham and the 'feminists' looked and continue to look the other way about FGM.
I think you miss the most obvious solution to 'boots on the ground' - which I agree is essential.
They do not have to be European, NATO or Western boots. Nor do they have to be Russian. There are already substantial Iranian forces fighting in Syria alongside the Syrian Government forces. What they could probably do with is more air support, intelligence and general backup which is what both Europe and the Russians are well placed to provide. All we need to do is get our heads round the fact that Iran is on our side in this conflict. It could go a long way to help with the continued normalising of relations with Iran - which I have to say has been one of the great achievements of Obama's presidency.
Of course it would also mean accepting that Assad has to be part of any post conflict settlement at least in the short term.
But it seems to me to be the only way to begin to address this issue of ground forces with Western assistance.
London already has been attacked, 56 died in the bombings on 7th July 2005.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
On topic I don't know what we can do that doesn't involve a lot of boots on the ground.
There were a lot of coppers on display today at Meadowhall, first time I can recall seeing police at Meadowhall in 25 years.
The french had a lot of policemen in the streets of Paris and it didn't prevent the attacks. No matter of defence is going to prevent the enemy from going to attack you, you have to get rid of the enemy to stop him from continuously attacking you.
The police reporter for French newspaper Liberation reports that three people were arrested in Brussels. He adds there is the possibility they were a "second team" that might hit Paris.
He also reports that those arrested were all on the 'fiche S', which refers to the security services' watchlist. He adds that one of the is French.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
I read this piece of apologism and then went back and read it again. It appears quite typical of the liberal left wing attitudes that have brought us to this position.
The "War on Terror" is a complete red herring to the issues faced by the West. It is not idealogies polluting a "religion of peace" that is the problem here, it is the religion itself which is based, in pretty unequivocal terms on Conquest, Forced Conversion and Murder.
There is no concept of moderation in Islam, only levels of adherence to the Death Cult. The problem the West needs to face is not what to do about the middle east but what it needs to do about an imported problem that now exists within its own borders.
This is what needs addressed and it needs addressed both for existing elements within our borders and the absolute and complete barring of further increases in those numbers - especially by the failed concept of asylum and refugees. Not only does this protect us but it forces those who with less adherence to the Death Cult to actually fight back within their own territories.
The West does not need the "stomach for the fight", it does not need the capacity to send our troops to foreign fields to die. It needs the stomach to let the middle east go through the torment, death and destruction that almost every country in Europe has been through in times when there simply was not a reasonable option to ship up off to another land.
If it found that the terrorist are a multi-nation force, that is in a way more worrying than a homegrown threat, as the level of planning and sophistication to arrange for people from a range of countries to come together and in-act a coordinated plan .
For me it's too soon to think too far ahead. We must commit to continue living our way, not as those who attack us would wish and not to change in response to atrocities either. Beyond that, for now we should mourn.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
That ignores different levels of social development, liberal democracy fails in countries that have only been civilized in relative terms only for a generation or two or have developed a completely different civilizational branch. Liberal democracy has failed even in some european countries where educational standards have not been modern for more than 50 years.
I feel faint.. I agree with Dair....Stop the influx now..and then control the elements already here...Starts with getting rid of the more radical preachers..then work down...with free flights to any shithole in any desert they choose
I think I said last night that it made no sense to blow yourself up 15 minutes into a game outside the stadium. We have read in the press over the past few years that football stadiums have been a common target and it seems clear that the real plan was to do it inside. Obviously, if that has been the case, there has been a very lucky escape and the death toll could have be many times higher.
" We must also resist suspicious glances at Muslims in general, 99.9% of whom deplore such actions as the Muslim Council of Britain has made clear. "
And so the headinthesand drivel continues:
Its only a tiny minority. Its only a few taxi drivers. Nothing is really happening. Community relations must not be damaged. RAYYCCIISSTT.
Industrial scale racist child rape FGM Election rigging Forced marriage Cousin marriage 'Honour' killings Islamic hate academies Trojan horse schools Fatwas against and murders of various writers, filmmakers and cartoonists
All the work of that 0.1% ???
Do you really believe that ?
Agree totally, that article goes a long way to explain where we are at.
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
No - because Islamist terrorism started long before the Iraq war.
When did islamic terrorism start? Can anyone pinpoint where it all went down hill?
About 630 AD.
Indeed.
In truth Mohammad was a barbaric Warlord, murderer and paedophile** who invented a corruption of Abrahamic religion in order to enhance his ability to wage war. It was hardly a new concept even then but quite a successful one.
** Perhaps the greatest squirm of Islamists is watching them justify his rape of Aisha, whom he married when the child was 6. The adherents claim "but he waited till she was ready before he consumated it". Ready, in this case, meant 9 years old.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
That ignores different levels of social development, liberal democracy fails in countries that have only been civilized in relative terms only for a generation or two or have developed a completely different civilizational branch. Liberal democracy has failed even in some european countries where educational standards have not been modern for more than 50 years.
I don't disagree. My point was that most here in the UK believe that liberal democracy is a superior model. It is our belief to counter the extremist beliefs of islamofascists. Not to say it will work everywhere tomorrow morning, if given a chance.
London already has been attacked, 56 died in the bombings on 7th July 2005.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
I understand that authorities have been very worried about Beligum for a while now. For a small country, they have had a huge number of citizens go to Syria etc and since returned.
I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to describe Belgium as a country!
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
There is FPCON Charlie at the rather large Aviano airbase in Italy. If this is set by strict definition, its strongly intelligence based. Very possibly related to the arrests in Italy in recent days.
London already has been attacked, 56 died in the bombings on 7th July 2005.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
You were always a sad old [moderated], now you're a sad old quisling [moderated] Congrats on your intellectual promotion.
0.5/10
What would you do with the "Muslims already here"?
More positive news - perhaps there was too much celebratory comms going on in ISIS after last night... Head of ISIS in Libya killed by the US... breaking news...
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
A form of words which also includes the attackers.
@YanniKouts: #Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
Merkel is even more comprehensively shafted than before. Be surprised if she makes it to Easter now. Pop goes her legacy.
I can't see Merkel lasting another week. She's kaput.
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
France was opposed to Iraq and it didn't help, whilst I agree that some western activities in the ME haven't exactly helped the situation the extremists would soon find another excuse to attack the west - burning books in Bradford and the fatwah on Rushdie was over a quarter of a century ago. Charlie Hebdo murders were over drawing a cartoon for f***ks sake. We need to wake up to what we are facing here.
Does anyone think Corbyn is the right guy for any of the above? He is going to get hammered for his positions week in, week out, and rightly so.
Do you not think his position on Iraq war was correct and that there wouldnt even be an ISIS?
No - because Islamist terrorism started long before the Iraq war.
When did islamic terrorism start? Can anyone pinpoint where it all went down hill?
About 630 AD.
Indeed.
In truth Mohammad was a barbaric Warlord, murderer and paedophile** who invented a corruption of Abrahamic religion in order to enhance his ability to wage war. It was hardly a new concept even then but quite a successful one.
** Perhaps the greatest squirm of Islamists is watching them justify his rape of Aisha, whom he married when the child was 6. The adherents claim "but he waited till she was ready before he consumated it". Ready, in this case, meant 9 years old.
I doubt if Mohammed was much worse than most of his ilk. Just more successful.
I think the Arabs should be seen in much the same light as the Mongols under Genghis Khan and his successors. Appalling brutality was a means to cow people into submission.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
You were always a sad old [moderated], now you're a sad old quisling [moderated] Congrats on your intellectual promotion.
0.5/10
What would you do with the "Muslims already here"?
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
We are trying to argue for Muslims to reject terrorism while refusing to challenge the violent extremism that lays at the heart and history of their religion. Christians are happy to reject the crusades, but Muslims are never expected to reject the Arab conquests. We should not be surprised when our argument is not persuasive.
London already has been attacked, 56 died in the bombings on 7th July 2005.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
As mentioned earlier, with caveats that's basically the way I'm heading, although it's fraught with dangers and short-term pain (then again, there's plenty of pain the region as it is).
I'd add a couple of things: there would have to be a Kurdish region in the north, and some of Iraq might need to be ceded as well. This will all mean mass movements of peoples, which will cause massive hardship.
The chances are there will not be a singly Kurdish state, there are significant differences between the Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian Kurds to make a single state problematic. This is why they each had their own Peshmergas until earlier this year, when they went under one command.
Instead, expect them to be separately-administered states that will slowly coalesce over time. Not that Turkey will like that prospect ...
The region might have to be split down religious and ethic lines. And that might be impossible in practice.
It is shocking how little support there is in the West for muslims who want to become apostates, and how little protection against the intimidation associated with it.
Disagree with this, though the rest of the article is sound. The real figure is about 70%. There is a large minority of Muslims in Britain who sympathise or agree with terrorist attacks, a smaller yet significant minority would be willing to carry out such attacks. It has shown in the polling every single time.
Look at the figures for people who think death for leaving Islam or insulting the prophet are acceptable punishments.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
IMO we are wasting our time trying to impose democracy or anything that looks like western civilisation on Muslim countries. What they do there is not our problem. I hate that they treat their women like shit and they rape children, but in the end what is happening in this country is what matters. We must look to our own border and society first and that means ridding ourselves of radical Islam as soon as possible. Multi-culturalism works only as far as taking the best of each different culture and adding it to our own. There is very, very little of Islamic culture that I would want to take into British life. Even Indian culture is pretty backwards and beyond food and the work ethic there is not a lot that I would want to add to our society, I say that as someone of Indian heritage.
We can't make people want something, we can fix our own society and we need to start now.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
You were always a sad old [moderated], now you're a sad old quisling [moderated] Congrats on your intellectual promotion.
0.5/10
What would you do with the "Muslims already here"?
London already has been attacked, 56 died in the bombings on 7th July 2005.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
As mentioned earlier, with caveats that's basically the way I'm heading, although it's fraught with dangers and short-term pain (then again, there's plenty of pain the region as it is).
I'd add a couple of things: there would have to be a Kurdish region in the north, and some of Iraq might need to be ceded as well. This will all mean mass movements of peoples, which will cause massive hardship.
The chances are there will not be a singly Kurdish state, there are significant differences between the Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian Kurds to make a single state problematic. This is why they each had their own Peshmergas until earlier this year, when they went under one command.
Instead, expect them to be separately-administered states that will slowly coalesce over time. Not that Turkey will like that prospect ...
The region might have to be split down religious and ethic lines. And that might be impossible in practice.
Indeed but sadly seems the only way. I agree there would need to be Kurdish states, possibly in both nations. I think a split along broadly religious and ethnic lines is inevitable and again if some minorities in one area have to move to another area where they are a majority so be it.
Stupid article. No attempt to address the overwhelming problem - the Muslims already here, living in Europe, who tolerate Isis, or even, tacitly, support them. Closely followed by the hundreds of thousands of European Muslims who have grotesque beliefs (gays, women, apostasy) utterly at odds with modern liberal western values.
Fail. 2/10. Next.
So what's your big plan?
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
How can we win the argument intellectually when we refuse to admit the extremism began with the founding of Islam in the 600s, as described below?
Whatever the problems and whenever they began does or should not alter our belief that western liberal democracy is a superior societal model. Of course we have gone to great lengths these past few years of trying to impose that model on various countries without overwhelming success but we can continue to believe and argue for it regardless.
We are trying to argue for Muslims to reject terrorism while refusing to challenge the violent extremism that lays at the heart and history of their religion. Christians are happy to reject the crusades, but Muslims are never expected to reject the Arab conquests. We should not be surprised when our argument is not persuasive.
WRT the Crusades, the aims, and some of the achievements, of the First Crusade were noble.
Comments
Interestingly I was looking back at some of the threads around the time of the Charlie Hebdo killings and found this from Mark Steyn:-
"I think it's at war with a culture that basically does not have the spirit of liberty and the spirit of intellectual inquiry. So you can come up with the most devastating, witty, trenchant argument, and the other fellow is just going to reach for the scimitar and slice your head off. And that calls into question, I think it does call into question as to whether Europe, in allowing Islam to nest within Western pluralistic democracies, has actually placed an existential question over its future. That's a real question for France today."
True in January; true now and true for all of us.
The BBC were caught short last night, and still don't seem to have caught up.
Trying to reply to 2 people at once, so apols if it all goes wrong.
By 'top priority' I mean securing the home base first before undertaking whatever else seems advisable.
As an example, my father, a merchant seaman, didn't duck out of his job when WW11 broke out to try to protect his family. He did spend his shore leave digging a hole in the garden & installing a bomb shelter to keep then safe(ish) whilst he was away
edited to try to sort out double-quoting.
My candidate for german John Major would be Ursula von der Leyen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen
If not her then Thomas de Maiziere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_de_Maizière
Last night I mentioned three things as the situation progressed.
1. That someone in particular on a watch list was noted by the police early on in events not at home. That person is now revealed to be one of the dead attackers , a young Frenchman known to the authorities.
2. That the perpetrators were not all French or long term resident there. This now looks likely
3. Whether some dodge-pot based in the Benelux was involved in the chain of events. Turns out three of the attackers lived in Belgium.
So whilst there can be criticism, maybe justified, maybe not, a number of strong possibilities were indicated early on, even as the shooting was still going on.
In amongst the useful idiots like Corbyn, many decent people's previous principles are being pushed to the side as an electoral expediency.
The WWC have walked - what's left?
You might advocate such things because you see them as means to undermine your society. It would therefore be quite logical to side with Islamists too.
That's how Soviet Communist revolutionaries could go from championing gay rights, the end of capital punishment, womens' rights, the rights of non-Russian minorities to repression when they took power.
Disagree with this, though the rest of the article is sound. The real figure is about 70%. There is a large minority of Muslims in Britain who sympathise or agree with terrorist attacks, a smaller yet significant minority would be willing to carry out such attacks. It has shown in the polling every single time.
There was the fatwa on Rushdie which was a terrorist act - certainly an incitement to terror: remember that some translators died and plenty of others called for Rushdie's death. The Iranian regime also sponsored terrorist acts in far away countries e.g. Argentina. But the Khomeinist revolution in Iran helped develop and/or boosted the Islamist current within Islam and within Muslim societies and that spread into Muslim populations within Europe.
Lots of countries and events provided a breeding ground: the Bosnian wars, Algeria, Afghanistan. The attacks on US targets in Arabia and in Africa (Kenya for instance) were in the 1990s. 9/11 was not the start by any means. There had been plenty going on before then but it had not impinged on public consciousness and had not been taken sufficiently seriously by the US authorities and others.
When Bin Laden declared war on the US, it was largely dismissed and ignored. When he said that a Caliphate needed to be recreated and that it needed extend to all the lands previously occupied by Arabs, including the old Al-Andalus, it was dismissed as delusional ravings. There have been lots of groups and lots of events since then: the wars in Iraq etc. But Islamist terror against Western targets, Western personnel and on Western soil have been going on for some time.
(to be continued)
The intellectual and ideological roots of Islamist ideology are varied: they include Islam but they owe more than we might suppose to the totalitarian death cults of the West (i.e. Fascism, Nazism and Communism). Islamism shares one characteristic with those ideologies above all - it is a reaction to and has an intense hatred of the pluralistic liberal and democratic world which started to come into being in the last century and like those ideologies it believes in the use of extreme violence to achieve its goal to remake society in its ideal form.
If the true Islamic society can only be created through mass killing, then mass killing there will have to be and there is nothing wrong with this. Lenin and Stalin and Hitler would have understood all of this perfectly well.
Just because a society develops, becomes richer and more educated and more exposed to other influences - as the Middle Eastern world arguably has done - does not mean that it automatically adopts the culture, values, ways of thought of the Western world. And in Islam Islamist ideology has the perfect breeding ground for a very different view of the world and how societies should be ordered.
This is a very quick summary of what is obviously a very complex topic.
@KatyScholesSKY: Message from Jeremy Corbyn at French Embassy: "with deepest sympathy to all who died in Paris on Nov 17." #Paris https://t.co/givuPPQkMj
https://twitter.com/UK_Awakening/status/665575512966729729
Repatriation? Internment?
1/10 for having thought it through.
Throw your hands up all you want, we are where we are. We must try, over the course of very many years, both to convince those with the extremist views you describe that our value system is preferable, and to work to prevent those not yet convinced from doing any harm, by all means possible.
I think we are doing a lot in both regards. I appreciate that some people, especially here on PB, believe we accommodate different minority cultures too much but it's not something to get hung up on.
We have been here before, perhaps absent the scale of threat, so if I were you, and to the many on here who are forecasting the end of western civilisation, I'd calm down a bit.
Dear god what has it come to when Roger provides one of the few voices of reason on PB.
First their commitment to these rights is skin deep and often only done because others (conservatives, say) are against them and, even more importantly, what's key is who you are agains. It is that which defines you and whether you are one of the good people or the bad people. So anyone who is against the US/Israel/the West/colonialism is "good" and gets their support and what they actually believe is ignored. Anyone who supports the West is a "bad" person and so their support for gay rights is ignored or is irrelevant.
It's just the 21st century's version of "My enemy's enemy is my friend." It is wholly unprincipled. It is morally repulsive. But the ends justify the means.
There were a lot of coppers on display today at Meadowhall, first time I can recall seeing police at Meadowhall in 25 years.
And so the headinthesand drivel continues:
Its only a tiny minority.
Its only a few taxi drivers.
Nothing is really happening.
Community relations must not be damaged.
RAYYCCIISSTT.
Industrial scale racist child rape
FGM
Election rigging
Forced marriage
Cousin marriage
'Honour' killings
Islamic hate academies
Trojan horse schools
Fatwas against and murders of various writers, filmmakers and cartoonists
All the work of that 0.1% ???
Do you really believe that ?
I think you miss the most obvious solution to 'boots on the ground' - which I agree is essential.
They do not have to be European, NATO or Western boots. Nor do they have to be Russian. There are already substantial Iranian forces fighting in Syria alongside the Syrian Government forces. What they could probably do with is more air support, intelligence and general backup which is what both Europe and the Russians are well placed to provide. All we need to do is get our heads round the fact that Iran is on our side in this conflict. It could go a long way to help with the continued normalising of relations with Iran - which I have to say has been one of the great achievements of Obama's presidency.
Of course it would also mean accepting that Assad has to be part of any post conflict settlement at least in the short term.
But it seems to me to be the only way to begin to address this issue of ground forces with Western assistance.
The only long-term solution in Syria will probably involve splitting the country, with Assad having the Shiite, Alawite bit and the FSA and what moderate rebels there are the Sunni bit. That would require Assad and Russia's agreement and then an FSA led assault on ISIS backed by western airpower and special forces and ideally forces from Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the Kurds too. In Iraq the solution will require the Iraqi government to incorporate more Sunni representation and then a large scale attack by the Iraqi army again backed by western airpower and western and Iranian special forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests
No matter of defence is going to prevent the enemy from going to attack you, you have to get rid of the enemy to stop him from continuously attacking you.
Will try and get the pre-race piece done in the next couple of hours, assuming the markets are awake by then.
The "War on Terror" is a complete red herring to the issues faced by the West. It is not idealogies polluting a "religion of peace" that is the problem here, it is the religion itself which is based, in pretty unequivocal terms on Conquest, Forced Conversion and Murder.
There is no concept of moderation in Islam, only levels of adherence to the Death Cult. The problem the West needs to face is not what to do about the middle east but what it needs to do about an imported problem that now exists within its own borders.
This is what needs addressed and it needs addressed both for existing elements within our borders and the absolute and complete barring of further increases in those numbers - especially by the failed concept of asylum and refugees. Not only does this protect us but it forces those who with less adherence to the Death Cult to actually fight back within their own territories.
The West does not need the "stomach for the fight", it does not need the capacity to send our troops to foreign fields to die. It needs the stomach to let the middle east go through the torment, death and destruction that almost every country in Europe has been through in times when there simply was not a reasonable option to ship up off to another land.
We can consider next steps later.
https://twitter.com/SamWalkers/status/665580560308416512
would make sense they'd tried to do so.
Liberal democracy has failed even in some european countries where educational standards have not been modern for more than 50 years.
That's just laughable rubbish, isn't it?
In truth Mohammad was a barbaric Warlord, murderer and paedophile** who invented a corruption of Abrahamic religion in order to enhance his ability to wage war. It was hardly a new concept even then but quite a successful one.
** Perhaps the greatest squirm of Islamists is watching them justify his rape of Aisha, whom he married when the child was 6. The adherents claim "but he waited till she was ready before he consumated it". Ready, in this case, meant 9 years old.
Also indicates the perpetrators weren't very well prepared & possibly hadn't done a recky of the stadium security beforehand.
What would you do with the "Muslims already here"?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-34823466?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
He just can't help himself, can he?
A small mercy given the scale of the deaths, but it could've been much worse.
622AD
http://www.voanews.com/content/paris-attacks-focus-world-powers-syria-talks/3057860.html
Offering odds?
I think the Arabs should be seen in much the same light as the Mongols under Genghis Khan and his successors. Appalling brutality was a means to cow people into submission.
It's really that simple.
I'd add a couple of things: there would have to be a Kurdish region in the north, and some of Iraq might need to be ceded as well. This will all mean mass movements of peoples, which will cause massive hardship.
The chances are there will not be a singly Kurdish state, there are significant differences between the Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian Kurds to make a single state problematic. This is why they each had their own Peshmergas until earlier this year, when they went under one command.
Instead, expect them to be separately-administered states that will slowly coalesce over time. Not that Turkey will like that prospect ...
The region might have to be split down religious and ethic lines. And that might be impossible in practice.
It is shocking how little support there is in the West for muslims who want to become apostates, and how little protection against the intimidation associated with it.
.1% is a joke.
We can't make people want something, we can fix our own society and we need to start now.
Revolting.
The Fourth Crusade was appalling.